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SpiritofVodkaDave
10-12-2012, 11:24 AM
Would you think about bringing him back on a 1 year, 2-3 mil (+incentives) deal?

sorney
10-12-2012, 11:32 AM
Would you think about bringing him back on a 1 year, 2-3 mil (+incentives) deal?

Yes

gunnarthor
10-12-2012, 11:47 AM
At this point, I'd just rather move on.

Boom Boom
10-12-2012, 11:49 AM
To start? No, I've seen enough of that. I think the Twins should be targetting better pitchers than Liriano. De Vries and Deduno may be better than Frankie at this point.

I'd consider bringing him back as a reliever, but not for that much money.

jctwins
10-12-2012, 12:03 PM
No f'in way. Let the past be in the past. If you're going to make cosmetic changes in the coaching staff, you do the same on the field.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
10-12-2012, 12:49 PM
No no no no no no no no no no!!!!!!!!

nicksaviking
10-12-2012, 01:06 PM
I wouldn't mind; he'd be no worse than the junk-bin pitchers the Twins continually sign most off-seasons, but I think the front office would be stupid to consider it. If they want to show they are moving in a new (winning) direction, they probably should try to show the fans different faces instead of the guys assiciated with the recent losing. This stratagy would proabably also include cutting ties with the likes of Baker, Pavano, Capps, Butera and Casilla. However, the Twins have had a hard time quitting the scholarship program, so this off season I'll be most interested to see if Terry Ryan has the stomach to end the Old Boys Club approach.

Winston Smith
10-12-2012, 01:19 PM
No save the money for the sweet swinging DeRosa.

Nick Nelson
10-12-2012, 01:49 PM
I think he'll probably cost a little more than that, but I'd be in favor of bringing him back on a one-year deal. Still only 29 and there's quite a bit of upside there. Are people forgetting what a world-beater he was for three months before the Twins traded him?

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-12-2012, 01:55 PM
I think he'll probably cost a little more than that, but I'd be in favor of bringing him back on a one-year deal. Still only 29 and there's quite a bit of upside there. Are people forgetting what a world-beater he was for three months before the Twins traded him?

Yeah thats true, but I can't see it being much more than 5 million. He really killed his value by struggling for the Sox down the stretch.

I'd just we rather bring in Liriano then the next Ramon Ortiz, Hernandez, Marquis etc etc I'm not sure I would give him 5 million though, maybe 1 year 3 million that goes up to 5 million if he pitches 180 IP

gmarais66
10-12-2012, 02:20 PM
I would rather have my hair set on fire and have it extinguished with a sledge hammer... I can't believe you would even bring up the topic. If he was the last pitcher left on the planet, I would pick Drew Butera ahead of him.

USAFChief
10-12-2012, 02:28 PM
Yes. There's a decent chance he'd be the best starter on the 2013 Twins, regardless who else they add this winter.

James
10-12-2012, 02:47 PM
Not for the $5 mil suggested, but $2-3, maybe. It's such a tough call because of how inconsistent he is. Overall, we have an idea of what he's going to give you and I think it's time where the Twins just part ways with him.

No, I haven't forgotten about how he was lights out before the trade. I also haven't forgotten about how he pitched in 2011 either.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
10-12-2012, 02:58 PM
time to cut the chord guys. As hard as it is to let Liriano go...it must be done.

Boom Boom
10-12-2012, 03:21 PM
I think he'll probably cost a little more than that, but I'd be in favor of bringing him back on a one-year deal. Still only 29 and there's quite a bit of upside there. Are people forgetting what a world-beater he was for three months before the Twins traded him?

He had a good June.... but an awful year. Liriano hasn't been a world-beater since 2006.

TheLeviathan
10-12-2012, 04:11 PM
If Liriano was a "world beater" this year who has a "decent" chance of being our best starter - I can only imagine what a pitching god like Bruce Chen, Henderson Alvarez, or Luke Hochever would be worth on the open market.

Just a hint, if three months of very good pitching still isn't enough to drop your ERA below 5 - you shouldn't be gushed about. At all. You're a hope and a prayer, not a sound investment.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-12-2012, 04:14 PM
If Liriano was a "world beater" this year who has a "decent" chance of being our best starter - I can only imagine what a pitching god like Bruce Chen, Henderson Alvarez, or Luke Hochever would be worth on the open market.

Just a hint, if three months of very good pitching still isn't enough to drop your ERA below 5 - you shouldn't be gushed about. At all. You're a hope and a prayer, not a sound investment.

I'm not saying he would be a world beater, but I would rather give him 2-3 mil then the next Marquis. At least with a guy like Liriano there is that hope that he becomes a nice bargain.

gunnarthor
10-12-2012, 04:19 PM
I think he'll probably cost a little more than that, but I'd be in favor of bringing him back on a one-year deal. Still only 29 and there's quite a bit of upside there. Are people forgetting what a world-beater he was for three months before the Twins traded him?

He wasn't exactly facing the 27 Yanks in that little 10 game run. 3 NL teams, Oak twice, KC twice, White Sox, Balt and TX. Some good offensive teams in there but a lot of bad lineups, too. TX game was fluky - 6 walks and 5 hits but only 1 run. And it wasn't like he got better in Chicago. Those 10 games were about all that went right for him last year.

IdahoPilgrim
10-12-2012, 04:22 PM
Is the hope that our new pitching coach will see something nobody else has? If not, then I say no. I would prefer a perhaps left gifted but more stable performer.

Top Gun
10-12-2012, 09:39 PM
I bet the Yanks will sign him to a 3 to 4 year deal.

mnfireman
10-12-2012, 10:19 PM
If there is any team that could get the maximum out of Liriano I would say it would be the Rays. They get everybody else's best, why not his?

mnfireman
10-12-2012, 10:24 PM
And, oh by the way, Liriano had a 5.40 ERA with Chicago and his WHIP was higher, BB/9 was higher, SO/9 was lower and SO/BB was lower. Yeah he really improved with the change of scenery. Leave him be, hell he might be out of baseball and playing slow pitch softball with Delmon Young in 2 or 3 years,

greengoblinrulz
10-12-2012, 10:39 PM
I think he'll probably cost a little more than that, but I'd be in favor of bringing him back on a one-year deal. Still only 29 and there's quite a bit of upside there. Are people forgetting what a world-beater he was for three months before the Twins traded him?

He wasn't exactly facing the 27 Yanks in that little 10 game run. 3 NL teams, Oak twice, KC twice, White Sox, Balt and TX. Some good offensive teams in there but a lot of bad lineups, too. TX game was fluky - 6 walks and 5 hits but only 1 run. And it wasn't like he got better in Chicago. Those 10 games were about all that went right for him last year.

Absolutely forget about him.....but with MIL & Pitt bein 2 of the 3 NL team.....his only bad teams he faced were CHI-C, & KC, other 7 were contenders & playoff teams.
Forget about saying he'll pitch for incentives.....players who arent injured dont do that.

old nurse
10-12-2012, 11:07 PM
Having Liriano come back is only slightly less "out there" than thinking a healthy Josh Johnson would bypass the prime years of free agency for a discount of 4 years/75 million. The only way to bring back a Liriano is on a minor league contract.

Chip Chipperson
10-13-2012, 12:18 AM
I have no problem with Liriano on a minor league deal or a 1 yr - 3 million dollar type of thing.

If we could get a hot month or two out of him, he'd be worth it.

If he starts struggling, well, we send him down and see what happens.

johnnydakota
10-13-2012, 01:43 AM
im guessing we sign nothing but has beens or never weres... its the twins way , so if we wont shell out for starters , at least they can do is get 3-4 more quality relievers...and if frankie is cheap enough and willing why not try him as a 1 inning reliever instead of a long man out of the pen?
i remember watching him prior to being sent to the pen last year and wondering ,geez the 1st inning he is lights out and by the 2nd or 3rd inning i want to hang him...

TwinsFanInPhilly
10-13-2012, 03:39 PM
No. There's a decent chance he'd be the worst starter on the 2013 Twins, regardless who else they add this winter.

SpantheMan
10-13-2012, 03:51 PM
If he would accept it, there's little risk and huge reward. He could either waste 2mil, boost us into respectability, or get us a decent prospect at the deadline.

Thrylos
10-13-2012, 04:34 PM
Liriano will probably sign for about $7-8 M a year. Look at the contract the Twins signed with Marquis, Capps and Pavano. There is no way that Liriano signs for $3M or so...

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-13-2012, 05:34 PM
Liriano is not going to get 7 mil. He is rocking a 5.23 ERA the last two seasons, teams will take a chance on him no doubt, but not for 7-8 mil.

Brock Beauchamp
10-13-2012, 05:56 PM
If you can get him for $4m, you have to do it. Too much upside for that kind of money when the alternative is a Marquis type.

TheLeviathan
10-13-2012, 06:06 PM
Liriano is not going to get 7 mil. He is rocking a 5.23 ERA the last two seasons, teams will take a chance on him no doubt, but not for 7-8 mil.

I love how a million or two makes Liriano's performance odds magically transform from awful to awesome.

IdahoPilgrim
10-13-2012, 07:02 PM
If you can get him for $4m, you have to do it. Too much upside for that kind of money when the alternative is a Marquis type.

Upside? What if we've already seen it?

I think we just have to consider Liriano as one of those players who had great potential but could never put it together, for whatever reason. That's hardly uncommon - there are more of those than there are aces.

Thrylos
10-13-2012, 07:54 PM
If you can get him for $4m, you have to do it. Too much upside for that kind of money when the alternative is a Marquis type.

Upside? What if we've already seen it?

I think we just have to consider Liriano as one of those players who had great potential but could never put it together, for whatever reason. That's hardly uncommon - there are more of those than there are aces.

Well....
truth of the matter: he did put it together. He was the best pitcher in baseball in 2006. Then stuff happened.
Cannot forget that.

twinsnorth49
10-13-2012, 08:04 PM
Potentially signing Liriano is now considered moving forward? What is the upside to this again? The snowball's chance in hell he even comes close to what he did in pre-injury '06?

Rosterman
10-13-2012, 11:55 PM
Liriano will probably only get a single season offer, might hit $3.5-4 million, but probably with a backend team (or maybe even the Astros). I doubt that he'll be signable for a multi-year and his agent will be stepping all over him to actually pitch in 2013 if he wants to make big bucks. So i might be a good year to gamble on him. Here's a guy in for a big letdown...starting 2012 with the thought that he'd easily make $8-10 and probably sign a $36-40 million multi-season deal. Yes, Francisco and Delmon are both in for a rude awakening...and look for them on-the0field in KC, Pittsburgh, Colorado or Houston. But not Minnesota!

70charger
10-14-2012, 02:25 AM
If Liriano is a good pitcher, how come he never pitches like... ya know... a good pitcher?

Seriously. Dude sucks. He has since 2006, one fluke year notwithstanding (and even then he wasn't that great). This is like asking whether we want to bring back Joel Zumaya. No thanks.

70charger
10-14-2012, 02:27 AM
Oh, and if anyone is still bitching about getting a pitcher and a slick fielding middle infielder in trade for a few months of 5.5 ERA Liriano, you need to give up now. The Twins were lucky to get anything beyond a bag of balls and/or Ozzie f-ing Guillen for that waste of talent.

one_eyed_jack
10-14-2012, 08:41 AM
I get the the "well, if we can get him cheap, he's worth a gamble" argument. But he's not going to come cheap. There will be some idiot that overpays for him. There always is with guys like this.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-14-2012, 08:53 AM
If Liriano is a good pitcher, how come he never pitches like... ya know... a good pitcher?

Seriously. Dude sucks. He has since 2006, one fluke year notwithstanding (and even then he wasn't that great). This is like asking whether we want to bring back Joel Zumaya. No thanks.
LOL 2006 wasn't that great? 2.16 ERA 10.7k is pretty damn good...
He was also pretty good in 2008 and 2010. I guess you basically would hope that this is the year that it finally "clicks" with him? Who knows. I'd just rather give him 3 million or so then the next Ramon Ortiz type who you know will post a 4.75-5.00 ERA at least with Liriano there is the hope he figures it out and gives you a 3.50 ERA or something.

I also like the thought about putting him in the pen, however he really would need to lower his walk rate, which exactly wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-14-2012, 08:55 AM
I get the the "well, if we can get him cheap, he's worth a gamble" argument. But he's not going to come cheap. There will be some idiot that overpays for him. There always is with guys like this.

Yeah I hear ya, I just can't see anyone giving him a multi year deal (maybe an NL team if they are desperate?) I mean there will be a lot of interest but would be shocked if he gets 6+ million

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-14-2012, 08:56 AM
Potentially signing Liriano is now considered moving forward? What is the upside to this again? The snowball's chance in hell he even comes close to what he did in pre-injury '06?

Signing a guy like Liriano instead of the next Jason Marquis, Ortiz, Hernandez etc is moving forward.

Badsmerf
10-14-2012, 10:33 AM
Yes. He is the type of low-risk/high-reward guy the Twins should be targeting. Regardless of his past on this team, he is an MLB pitcher and should be considered the same as anyone else. I don't know how the parting of ways was, but they should try to sign him.

Thegrin
10-14-2012, 10:36 AM
We can pray that the Yanks will sign him to a 3 to 4 year deal. ROFL

Twins Twerp
10-14-2012, 10:49 AM
4-5 mil would be worth it. We know what we are getting. I don't see the harm. If we sign him to be a bottom of the rotation guy, he is better than Duduno and De Vries. If we can sign a couple of top end guys (Jackson, Marcum, etc.) then a deal for Liriano makes sense. If anyone else shows him interest and drives his value over 5 million, then no freakin' way. But I like the thought of a minor league deal, and I am guessing he would rather come to a place he knows. He is, as you may remember, a bi-polar headcase.

IdahoPilgrim
10-14-2012, 12:39 PM
This ain't happening. The Twins (rightfully so, I think) don't value him as highly as many on this board seem to, or else they wouldn't have traded him for a couple of spare parts (and they were lucky to get that). For that matter, the rest of the league doesn't value him that highly either (or again, we wouldn't have had to trade him for spare parts). There was no interest on the Twins part to negotiate a new contract with him while he was here, and I can't believe there will be any to resign him now.

He has great stuff. He's inconsistent and unreliable. His ERA post-injury is around 4.75. Let's move on.

TheLeviathan
10-14-2012, 04:32 PM
Are the people saying "just 4 or 5 million is fine" in the same group that gets irritated when we piddle away 12-15M on a handful of the 4-5M guys? Just last year the cash we spent on Capps, Marquis, and Jamey Carroll was a 10M player. Do we really want to mismash another 10-15 on three subpar players rather than pooling and splashing? I know for a fact a few of the people wanting to gamble on a guy who has established himself as one of the worst starters in the AL are also guys that complain about wasting money in "reasonable" contracts that add up to real money.

Liriano isn't very good and his numbers last year show it.

Brock Beauchamp
10-14-2012, 07:49 PM
Are the people saying "just 4 or 5 million is fine" in the same group that gets irritated when we piddle away 12-15M on a handful of the 4-5M guys? Just last year the cash we spent on Capps, Marquis, and Jamey Carroll was a 10M player. Do we really want to mismash another 10-15 on three subpar players rather than pooling and splashing? I know for a fact a few of the people wanting to gamble on a guy who has established himself as one of the worst starters in the AL are also guys that complain about wasting money in "reasonable" contracts that add up to real money.

Liriano isn't very good and his numbers last year show it.

The Twins need four starters.

Repeat. The Twins need four starters.

At least two of those guys are going to have to be signed cheaply. If you need someone on the cheap, would you prefer another Pitcherpotamus, another Marquis, or a guy that has some upside?

I'm not a Liriano fan but if you want this team to win in 2013 and can pick up Francisco for $3-4m on a one year deal, you have to make that move. Lots of upside, very little risk.

TheLeviathan
10-14-2012, 07:54 PM
Repeat. The Twins need four starters.

If you believe we need four starters from outside the organization than A) we don't have enough money for that and B) Liriano still sucks and doesn't solve that need. What we don't need is live bodies - we need good arms. Liriano has repeatedly proven he is not that. If he gets signed, I'm guessing it's as a bullpen arm.

I'm firmly against the idea of investing money into short-term solutions for next year given the number of problems this team faces. If you're going to sink money into the pitching staff - sink into players that can be here for 3-4 years.

USAFChief
10-14-2012, 08:58 PM
Sheesh. If there's anything Liriano HAS proven, it's that he's not just a "live body." Rather, he's the definition of "good arm." Jason Marques is a "warm body." Cole Devries is a warm body. Liriano isn't.

Whether or not Liriano can harness that good arm is another issue, of course. Many believe he never will.

But just another nothing, with no real chance of being well above average? No. That's a ridiculous take.

TheLeviathan
10-14-2012, 09:09 PM
There are plenty of pitchers with "stuff" that have never been anything. Liriano has failed over and over and over again. At some point "stuff" isn't enough - especially when you have been one of the worst pitchers in the AL for three of the last four years.

Brock Beauchamp
10-14-2012, 09:09 PM
Repeat. The Twins need four starters.

If you believe we need four starters from outside the organization than A) we don't have enough money for that and B) Liriano still sucks and doesn't solve that need. What we don't need is live bodies - we need good arms. Liriano has repeatedly proven he is not that. If he gets signed, I'm guessing it's as a bullpen arm.

I'm firmly against the idea of investing money into short-term solutions for next year given the number of problems this team faces. If you're going to sink money into the pitching staff - sink into players that can be here for 3-4 years.

I agree that the Twins' first target should be a long-term arm.

That doesn't change the fact that they will still need other arms to fill out the rotation. If you're going to spend money on a guy to eat innings, there is no reason to not go with the guy with upside. If you don't think the Twins should sign a Liriano-type to round out the rotation, what do you suggest they do?

TheLeviathan
10-14-2012, 09:17 PM
If you don't think the Twins should sign a Liriano-type to round out the rotation, what do you suggest they do?

Throw our own batch of bad arms out there that don't cost us 3-5 million. Hendricks, DeVries, a worthwhile FA, Diamond, Gibson, Deduno, etc. If you're going to willingly put bad pitchers in your rotation, why pay them a lot?

Rosterman
10-14-2012, 09:47 PM
Don't complain about what we got from the White Sox. Got two players that will contribute something. Liriano was a dead arm.

If the Twins (or the White Sox) wished to keep Liriano, they would be on the hook for much more than he is currently worth.

The only factor in considering Liriano is that he HAS to pitch well next season if he wants to make big money or get a long-term contract. He HAS to pitch the best he ever has.

The upside is that he may come cheap, and of he shines, you can flip him for a couple of players. If he pitches okay, you can still flip him, possibly, for a couple of players.

Man, I could see the Astros signing Clemens, getting a bunch of wanna-bees (Liriano and Young, for example), selling some season tickets, and still flipping guys for more promise and hope.

Brock Beauchamp
10-15-2012, 07:26 AM
If you don't think the Twins should sign a Liriano-type to round out the rotation, what do you suggest they do?

Throw our own batch of bad arms out there that don't cost us 3-5 million. Hendricks, DeVries, a worthwhile FA, Diamond, Gibson, Deduno, etc. If you're going to willingly put bad pitchers in your rotation, why pay them a lot?

And I'm not against that move... If the Twins can pick up two legitimate starters. I'd go for a Sanchez/Jackson/Marcum type for 3 years and then sign Baker (pending physical and rehab status, that is). If you are confident that Baker can perform, snatch him up and fill in two rotation spots with filler until Gibson is ready (which he shouldn't be in April... If you start him out of ST, then you just have to bench him in August anyway... Better to do it the other way around).

But if Baker isn't ready or if another team picks him up, you can't expect the Twins to fill in three rotation spots with junk arms. That's a great way to start another season at 10-25 and be out of it by May 15th. In that situation, I'm not against picking up Liriano if he can be had for $3-4m. There simply aren't better options than him out there with the kind of upside he brings to the table. Just 24 months ago, the guy was getting Cy Young votes and it's not as if he suffered a major injury. He still has that kind of talent, though he's unlikely to pitch at quite that high a level again.

It's a bad situation to be in but advocating that the Twins throw out Deduno/De Vries/Walters/etc. is writing off the season before it even starts. There is absolutely no way the Twins will compete with three of those guys in the rotation.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-15-2012, 10:42 AM
Counting on DeDuno/DeVries/Walters to even give you "one arm" in the rotation for the whole season is a mistake, counting on them for 2 or 3 of those pitching spots is a recipe for disaster.

I like Baker, but will he even be 100% come beginning of next season? FWIW I hope they resign him as I think he could be huge in a contract/make or break year.

PopRiveter
10-15-2012, 12:23 PM
Oh Francisco, how I wanted you to be our go-to pitcher!
Oh Francisco, how deep the gash you left with your repeated failures!

Any success the Twins have in '13 will have to include some bargain-midlevel free agent pick-ups outperforming a contract (ala Willingham '12.) Liriano at a low cost seems a good bet, but you can only flip a coin a have it land tails so many times before you pick a new coin.

Therefore...
...Ervin Santana!
Yeah, I'm dreaming. He won't be as cheap as Liriano, but a guy can hope against hope every once in a while.

Ex-Iowegian
10-15-2012, 12:35 PM
How many years after the great season (2006) have to pass before people stop thinking that Liriano can replicate that success? Six? Eight?
His best days are gone. No reason to think that he can get that form back.
As for incentives? If he couldn’t get it together last year, in a contract year, why would one think he would respond to incentives?
I wish him well. But he needs to be someone else’s headache.

Winston Smith
10-15-2012, 12:49 PM
I'll ask again how is Baker going to be ready before Gibson when he had his surgery 9 months later?

Brock Beauchamp
10-15-2012, 01:04 PM
I'll ask again how is Baker going to be ready before Gibson when he had his surgery 9 months later?

31 years old versus 25. With Baker, there's little concern for babying his arm and bringing him back slowly. He may be ineffective but he'll probably be ready shortly after the season begins. He's already throwing on flat ground, IIRC.

PopRiveter
10-15-2012, 01:34 PM
How many years after the great season (2006) have to pass before people stop thinking that Liriano can replicate that success? Six? Eight?
His best days are gone. No reason to think that he can get that form back.
As for incentives? If he couldn’t get it together last year, in a contract year, why would one think he would respond to incentives?
I wish him well. But he needs to be someone else’s headache.

He's not very far removed from 2010. How would you like to insert this stat line into next year's rotation for little cost?
191.2 IP, 201 K, 14 W, 3.62 ERA

He has the same (or better) stuff today as he did in 2010. Sadly, he has the same head as he did in 2011 and 2012. I don't think anyone is still basing any hopes on 2006, but he's still had stretches of dominance (every season) that tease and tease and tease.

Nick Nelson
10-15-2012, 02:18 PM
Liriano ranked third in the majors in K/9 rate this year (his best mark since '06) and had a 4.14 xFIP. There are some underlying numbers that suggest considerable upside and he's still under 30 years old. I think he's a guy that a lot of people here would be clamoring for as a buy-low candidate if they hadn't had to deal with his frustrating inconsistency from up close over the past couple seasons.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-15-2012, 02:19 PM
How many years after the great season (2006) have to pass before people stop thinking that Liriano can replicate that success? Six? Eight?
His best days are gone. No reason to think that he can get that form back.
As for incentives? If he couldnít get it together last year, in a contract year, why would one think he would respond to incentives?
I wish him well. But he needs to be someone elseís headache.

He was also very good in 2008, 2010 and a decent chuck of the Twins season (when they brought him back up from the pen)

I don't think he is going to post a sub 3 ERA and a 10k/9 2.5 BB rate like '06, but I think its entirely possible that he could post a 4.00 ERA if things break right (along with some really outstanding preformances)

Twins Twerp
10-15-2012, 02:34 PM
Pitching in this league is terrible. I know people get angry about Liriano not reaching his full/half/quarter of his actual potential, but he is and can be a decent pitcher in this league. People are not saying that we go out and bid high on him. He cannot and will not be the prize of this offseason. But he can be a good back-page guy. If someone else in the league offers him a conract, we will not get in a bidding war.

The conversation is: for the right price, would you take back Liriano. I say yes, if the price is cheap take a flier on a guy who has ace stuff, with a JV head.

Willihammer
10-15-2012, 02:40 PM
Liriano had the 4th best whiff/swing rate in 2012 at 28.4%, right between Darvish and Strasburg. His slider is every bit as good as Greinke's or Sabathia's, probably better. There's a role for Liriano somewhere, its obviously not here. I hope he finds a good fit in the NL so we don't have to face him.

TheLeviathan
10-15-2012, 06:01 PM
And I'm not against that move... If the Twins can pick up two legitimate starters. I'd go for a Sanchez/Jackson/Marcum type for 3 years and then sign Baker (pending physical and rehab status, that is). If you are confident that Baker can perform, snatch him up and fill in two rotation spots with filler until Gibson is ready (which he shouldn't be in April... If you start him out of ST, then you just have to bench him in August anyway... Better to do it the other way around).

Two just isn't going to happen. Realistically I think we need to hope for one, bring back Baker, and roll with what we have. You're talking about an opening rotation of FA-Diamond-Deduno-Hendricks-DeVries with Vasquez/Walters/Hernandez in the mix as well. Yeah, it's ugly, but you have Gibson and hopefully Baker coming along later. Not to mention I think you have to consider trading Span for an arm to add to that mix as well. (It's what I would do personally)

As far as competing next year - I think it's a delusion to begin with, I don't feel tethered by that ball and chain. I don't see any reason to sink 4M into a guy like Liriano when it would be better served adding a Doumit-like bat for depth (I believe we'll need it) after Span is dealt. You'll get much more bang for your buck and none of the aggravation that comes with that guy. I'll repeat it again because we have a ton of turd-polishing going on in here: In three of the last four seasons he has been one of the worst starters in the AL. At some point the consistently bad results matter more than peripheral numbers.

diehardtwinsfan
10-15-2012, 07:27 PM
I'm perfectly fine with Liriano on a 1 year deal (though I suspect that ship has sailed) so long as this is not the only pitching change the Twins make. If they go out and get two pitchers on longer term deals and sign Liriano to a 1 year prove it deal, I'd say good offseason.

Brock Beauchamp
10-15-2012, 09:38 PM
Two just isn't going to happen. Realistically I think we need to hope for one, bring back Baker, and roll with what we have. You're talking about an opening rotation of FA-Diamond-Deduno-Hendricks-DeVries with Vasquez/Walters/Hernandez in the mix as well. Yeah, it's ugly, but you have Gibson and hopefully Baker coming along later. Not to mention I think you have to consider trading Span for an arm to add to that mix as well. (It's what I would do personally)

As far as competing next year - I think it's a delusion to begin with, I don't feel tethered by that ball and chain. I don't see any reason to sink 4M into a guy like Liriano when it would be better served adding a Doumit-like bat for depth (I believe we'll need it) after Span is dealt. You'll get much more bang for your buck and none of the aggravation that comes with that guy. I'll repeat it again because we have a ton of turd-polishing going on in here: In three of the last four seasons he has been one of the worst starters in the AL. At some point the consistently bad results matter more than peripheral numbers.

I consider Baker to be a legitimate starter if he's in any condition to pitch before June.

Kobs
10-15-2012, 11:22 PM
1. I don't understand why anyone thinks Liriano wants to play here. He's going to get an offer to play somewhere else because he can get strikeouts. He has clashed with the coaching staff for years, and had been unhappy with the front office in the past.

2. Liriano has an ERA of 4.75 since coming back from Tommy John surgery. His walk rate is over 4. Why would you want him back? He's not good at preventing runs from scoring. That's his job.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/liriafr01-pitch.shtml#2011-2012-sum:pitching_standard
He's essentially Tony Batista here. The Twins need power, so they go get a player who might hit some homers, but will do everything else so terribly that he is damaging to the team's success. The Twins need some guys to miss bats, so they get a guy whose strikeouts don't result in good pitching.

NoCryingInBaseball
10-16-2012, 07:10 AM
The problem is that Liriano has broken our collective hearts too many times. While we remember his terrific first year (pre-TJ Surgery) there isnít a lot to brag about after his return.
He probably wonít have a lot of options because he didnít impress many in Chicago, so his price might be right. Maybe give him a low contract that is incentive laden and move him quickly to the bullpen if he stinks it up.

70charger
10-16-2012, 04:29 PM
As far as competing next year - I think it's a delusion to begin with, I don't feel tethered by that ball and chain. I don't see any reason to sink 4M into a guy like Liriano when it would be better served adding a Doumit-like bat for depth (I believe we'll need it) after Span is dealt. You'll get much more bang for your buck and none of the aggravation that comes with that guy. I'll repeat it again because we have a ton of turd-polishing going on in here: In three of the last four seasons he has been one of the worst starters in the AL. At some point the consistently bad results matter more than peripheral numbers.

This.

Rabeleis
10-17-2012, 07:56 AM
Thanks nick ... you've started to open the door that needs to opened ... though the Twins won a bunch of Division titles - they sucked ... they only beat up on the bad teams and won a weak division ...
The reason is that their philosophy of how to play baseball is wrong ... it goes back to Tom Kelley ... his bland, boring baseball might work for high school, but it won't win in the majors ... seriously ... he got lucky because he had 2 good pitchers to get him through the playoffs in 1987 and 1991 ... those teams sucked during the season ... the concepts of "pitch to contact" and that ridiculous way they teach to hit are pathetic ... you win with emotional Latin players - the Twins pitching staff should be" Santana, Garza, Loehse, Liriano ... Ramos should be catching ...

Ex-Iowegian
10-17-2012, 08:55 AM
How many years after the great season (2006) have to pass before people stop thinking that Liriano can replicate that success? Six? Eight?
His best days are gone. No reason to think that he can get that form back.
As for incentives? If he couldn’t get it together last year, in a contract year, why would one think he would respond to incentives?
I wish him well. But he needs to be someone else’s headache.

He was also very good in 2008, 2010 and a decent chuck of the Twins season (when they brought him back up from the pen)

I don't think he is going to post a sub 3 ERA and a 10k/9 2.5 BB rate like '06, but I think its entirely possible that he could post a 4.00 ERA if things break right (along with some really outstanding preformances)

I kept getting sucked into that every other year hope that he would find something to build on, too. But it looks to me like he is headed for a more consistent stretch of blandness with an ERA hovering around 4.8 +/-. Occassional run into a stretch of good innings. But one always feels like the othe shoe will drop at any minute.

Wow. Feels like I just described Cole DeVries.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-17-2012, 11:22 AM
the Twins pitching staff should be" Santana, Garza, Loehse, Liriano ...

If only we had 60 million a year to spend on a rotation....