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Nick Nelson
10-04-2012, 10:29 PM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?1081-Bloodbath

IdahoPilgrim
10-04-2012, 10:40 PM
I haven't bothered to sit down and look this up, but I have to wonder how many managers in the past have had consecutive 90-loss seasons and not been replaced.

Nick Nelson
10-04-2012, 11:05 PM
Well, Tom Kelly, for one. Went through four straight 90-plus loss seasons from '97 to 2000 before turning things around in 2001 and then retiring.

spideyo
10-04-2012, 11:10 PM
I think Bobby Valentine demonstrates exactly why they didn't fire Gardy and Anderson.

All of our non-pitchers are under contract next year, and you have a core of pitchers they hope to build around. Replacing EVERYONE could easily create the kind of culture clash that caused toxicity in the Boston clubhouse.

Not only that, but now Boston is going to be paying Bobby V 2.5 mill to NOT manage them next year. Do you really think TR wants to be on the hook for two managers salaries next year?

Far better to send a strong message and then simply let the contract expire and have only a few new pieces to add.



Also, is Mickey Hatcher still looking for a coaching job?

jokin
10-04-2012, 11:12 PM
I haven't bothered to sit down and look this up, but I have to wonder how many managers in the past have had consecutive 90-loss seasons and not been replaced.

I asked this on another thread. I do know of one for sure, and it illustrates the current problem. Tom Kelly. 97,98,99,00 (with loss totals of 97,92,97,93).

jokin
10-04-2012, 11:18 PM
I think Bobby Valentine demonstrates exactly why they didn't fire Gardy and Anderson.

All of our non-pitchers are under contract next year, and you have a core of pitchers they hope to build around. Replacing EVERYONE could easily create the kind of culture clash that caused toxicity in the Boston clubhouse.

Not only that, but now Boston is going to be paying Bobby V 2.5 mill to NOT manage them next year. Do you really think TR wants to be on the hook for two managers salaries next year?

Far better to send a strong message and then simply let the contract expire and have only a few new pieces to add.



Also, is Mickey Hatcher still looking for a coaching job?

I was typing while you were posting. The example of Bobby Valentine is a poor one. He would not fit here, would never have been considered by ownership or management, and besides that, he would never have wanted to come here. How about Ron Washington or Mike Scoscia? Much better fits, who may both soon be looking for another job. With all the Latin players here or on the fast track to the majors, how about contacting Ivan Rodriguez for a coaching job? I bet Omar Vizquel would jump at a major league coaching job offer. There certainly have to be potential pitching coaches out there available that could give the Twins the fresh approach they so desperately need with all the young arms in the organization. Sign two FA pitchers that don't need a lot of hands-on attention and you've got yourself a change in the right direction back towards AL relevancy.

Seth Stohs
10-04-2012, 11:42 PM
Justin Morneau is NOT happy at all with the decision to fire Joe Vavra, and I agree with him! Vavra has done the job. 2 MVPs. Mauer's batting titles. Willingham and Doumit's best seasons. Plouffe's emergence.

Shipley article in the Pioneer Press:
http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_21701447/minnesota-twins-justin-morneau-sorry-joe-vavra-out


"I had some good seasons in the minor leagues, obviously, but when my career really turned around was when he kind of took over," Morneau said. "It's one of those things you're disappointed to see."


"I think he's one of the only coaches in the big leagues with multiple MVPs, batting titles, and we won team batting titles under him. We've had some great offensive teams, and he's meant a lot to me -- second to none."

Shane Wahl
10-04-2012, 11:59 PM
Vavra was not at all the problem. Anderson and Gardenhire are. Gardy's sticking around is one thing given his contract, but Anderson REALLY needs to go away.

beckmt
10-05-2012, 12:20 AM
I think TR was admitting part of the issue was the amount of money to spend on draft picks under the old system and the fact the Twins had late first round picks and then had to watch the money for signability issues before the last couple of CBA's. Anderson seems to have gotten a pass due to starting rotation injuries and ineffectiveness(Blackburn, Marquis) from pitchers who have a lack of talent. I do not remember a modern era major league club that did not finish the year with a least one member of the starting rotation from spring training left, and I do not think those issues were all Anderson. I hope this is not a statement that the Twins do not intend to sign any FA starters from at least the middle group. That would set Gardy and Andy both up for failure, along with the front office, plus send the Twins into a downward attendence spiral that would be hard to reverse. I believe that TR had to find major league openings for Cuellar and Brunansky or probably lose both of them this winter. These moves will not mean a lot if not followed with some signings that will give hope to Twins fans for the next year. Due to BIll Smith the pitching cuboard is bare for another year or two at least, that needs to be fixed by trades or FA signings. I believe TR will explore both, but trades risky as they can be will be the way to fix the club. I only hope TR is as good as Billy Beane in talent evaluation.

SarasotaBill
10-05-2012, 05:58 AM
Off the subject - from ESPN's Keith Law

What kind of numbers could Chris Parmelee put up in a full season? He seems to be a different player over the last year and a half. Make sense to trade Morneau and give him a shot?
Klaw (2:09 PM)


I am not a big believer in Parmelee or Plouffe, sorry. I don't think either guy is an average everyday player.

Ex-Iowegian
10-05-2012, 06:36 AM
I am curious about the Vavra (infield) and Ullger (outfield) pedigrees for their new positions. It lends itself to having one full time and one part time hitting coach if Vavra stays at the major league level, which is kind of unclear at this point. Probably too soon to tell.
I agree that keeping Cuellar and Bruno may have had more to do with this than many will give credit. It will be fun to see who, if anyone, comes up from within the organization.

SweetOne69
10-05-2012, 07:43 AM
I do not remember a modern era major league club that did not finish the year with a least one member of the starting rotation from spring training left, and I do not think those issues were all Anderson.

Technically 1 starter from the opening day roster was still in the rotation at the end of the season. Liam Hendricks came North with the Twins because Marquis stayed behind due to his daughter's accident.

SarasotaBill
10-05-2012, 09:02 AM
Twins web site indicates Vavra and Ullger will be minor league instructors.

Willihammer
10-05-2012, 09:14 AM
edit: wasn't aware of the update

Winston Smith
10-05-2012, 09:34 AM
Isn't this a little like going to the Dr and he says I have bad news you have brain cancer. But the good news is we can cure it by cutting off your arms and legs.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
10-05-2012, 09:41 AM
I think Andy should have been let go. The re-assignment thing is really ridiculous. Get the guys out of the clubhouse. Vavra and Gardy would be the only 2 coaches I'd keep.

JB_Iowa
10-05-2012, 09:50 AM
Pretty much the way it is in every war.

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

nokomismod
10-05-2012, 10:04 AM
How much do you think the decisions on which coaches stay vs go had to do with TR talking with players to get their opinions? Would he take someone like Pavano or Mauer's opinions on the matter?

Brock Beauchamp
10-05-2012, 10:15 AM
Where are all the people complaining about how the medical staff is the problem and that nothing will be done about it?

gunnarthor
10-05-2012, 10:41 AM
Just looked up a few but managers that have had back to back 90+ loses that weren't fired included Kelly, Torre, Mauch, Cox, Mack, Maddon, Pinella, Trembley, Hargrove, Torborg, Trammel, Houck, McNamara, etc

J-Dog Dungan
10-05-2012, 10:46 AM
Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).

gunnarthor
10-05-2012, 10:51 AM
Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).

He won't be traded. Ryan will want one more shot at fixing the rotation and a middle line up or Mauer, Willingham and Morneau is a nice one. If the rotation breaks down, Morneau will be moved at the deadline where his salary won't be as big an issue.

DAM DC Twins Fans
10-05-2012, 11:18 AM
Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).

There is no doubt Morneau is gone--he has basically said he wont re-sign now.

I wonder if Gardy walks away. If I was him, I would. Take away my coaching staff (except for Anderson) and give me guys I may or may not want with a no pitching--you are basically telling me I am a lame duck--maybe I should walk away now.

Why not keep the bullpen coach who has been here forever?? Twins better give him some honor next year.

This was done poorly and handled worse.

twinslover
10-05-2012, 11:38 AM
Where are all the people complaining about how the medical staff is the problem and that nothing will be done about it?
A while ago I wrote a short blog about how when TR took over as again, one of the things he mentioned was evaluating every part of the organization, including the medical staff, and I questioned if they would also be awarded a "scholorship" looks like they have not. It also looks like everyone on the coaching staff has been put on notice with all the 1 year deals that expire after next year. I guess TR is trying to light a fire under someones ass?

JB_Iowa
10-05-2012, 12:28 PM
I wonder if Gardy walks away. If I was him, I would. Take away my coaching staff (except for Anderson) and give me guys I may or may not want with a no pitching--you are basically telling me I am a lame duck--maybe I should walk away now.

Why not keep the bullpen coach who has been here forever?? Twins better give him some honor next year.

This was done poorly and handled worse.

I agree that the execution of all of this was egregious.

As for Gardenhire, I've wanted to see him gone because I thought it was time for a change. I think he could be successful somewhere else. It looks like there will be a number of vacancies this off-season. It may very well be in his best interest to resign. (I would not see that as being a "quitter" although some might. From the things he's said, he'd probably like to stay and win with the Twins but the talent he has to work with is pretty much outside his control.)

SeanS7921
10-05-2012, 12:48 PM
It would be great to get rid of Morneau and his 15 million. Morneau was average at best this season for a 1B/DH. I think his WAR was around 1. He's garbage if they could get that 15 million off the books for a used lawnmower in return that would be great. Not sure why they fired poor Jerry White. What does a 1st Base Coach do besides give tips on the pitcher and relay signs? He got smoked.

Highabove
10-05-2012, 01:07 PM
Just looked up a few but managers that have had back to back 90+ loses that weren't fired included Kelly, Torre, Mauch, Cox, Mack, Maddon, Pinella, Trembley, Hargrove, Torborg, Trammel, Houck, McNamara, etc

Take Joe Moddon off the list. He acquired a 95+ loss mess.
Maddon's Ray's had 97 wins in just year three.

Musk21
10-05-2012, 01:59 PM
My theory is that the Twins still want Gardy as the manager, but that he threatened to walk if they let Andy go.

Fire Dan Gladden
10-05-2012, 03:23 PM
Right or wrong, the biggest internal values in this organization are loyalty and continuity. Remember that TR and Gardy know how the system works in Minnesota and are willing to work within the confines of what the Pohlads lay down. All you pretty much hear about Gardy, both locally and nationally, is that he is a good manager and the guys love playing for him. Tons of respect everywhere. I still believe that if Gardy leaves, it will be because he wants to, not because he was let go, regardless of what willbe said publicly.

As for Gardy currently being on a one year contract, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the Twins traditionally signed him to a 1 yr contract with an option year every year? I believe that the contract is usually quietly signed in November/December. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in him being on the "hot seat".

The Vavra move was surprising in that the team has seen a lot of individual improvement under his watch (I would contend that poor players are more to blame than Vavra).

Also, if you think you are going to see "major cultural changes", think again. They are filling all of these spots from within, not one will be an external hire. If Gardy does ultimately leave the team, do you really think his replacement will be external.

The sad part of this whole mess, is that if the Twins starting pitching stayed healthy (beyond the coaches control I might add), this team would probably be around .500, these changes would not have happened, and we would be talking about the 1 or 2 moves the team could make to be competitive, instead of complaining about the organization being stagnant.

Boom Boom
10-05-2012, 03:33 PM
The sad part of this whole mess, is that if the Twins starting pitching stayed healthy (beyond the coaches control I might add), this team would probably be around .500, these changes would not have happened, and we would be talking about the 1 or 2 moves the team could make to be competitive, instead of complaining about the organization being stagnant.

.500 would have been a lofty goal with the rotation set up as it was originally.

Liriano, Blackburn, and Marquis DID stay healthy. Baker and Pavano... do you think that, combined, they were worth 15 more wins than the replacements? I don't.

SweetOne69
10-05-2012, 03:43 PM
As for Gardy currently being on a one year contract, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the Twins traditionally signed him to a 1 yr contract with an option year every year? I believe that the contract is usually quietly signed in November/December. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in him being on the "hot seat".

You are wrong. The Twins and Gardy have almost always agreed to 2 year extensions when he had 1 year remaining on his contract

Fire Dan Gladden
10-05-2012, 04:49 PM
As for Gardy currently being on a one year contract, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the Twins traditionally signed him to a 1 yr contract with an option year every year? I believe that the contract is usually quietly signed in November/December. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in him being on the "hot seat".

You are wrong. The Twins and Gardy have almost always agreed to 2 year extensions when he had 1 year remaining on his contract

But they tore up his existing contract in the process correct? Meaning that he was always working on a 2 year contract. I do believe it was always done around the winter meetings. If goes into the season with a one year contract, and no talk of an extension, then I will believe the lame duck status. Otherwise no.

Fire Dan Gladden
10-05-2012, 04:57 PM
The sad part of this whole mess, is that if the Twins starting pitching stayed healthy (beyond the coaches control I might add), this team would probably be around .500, these changes would not have happened, and we would be talking about the 1 or 2 moves the team could make to be competitive, instead of complaining about the organization being stagnant.

.500 would have been a lofty goal with the rotation set up as it was originally.

Liriano, Blackburn, and Marquis DID stay healthy. Baker and Pavano... do you think that, combined, they were worth 15 more wins than the replacements? I don't.

Baker and Pavano healthy, Marquis being there for Spring Training, Blackburn and Liriano would not have been given as long a leash as they were, less starts from Duensing and Hendricks. That combination could have added up to close to 15 additional wins, yes.

jharaldson
10-05-2012, 04:58 PM
Where are all the people complaining about how the medical staff is the problem and that nothing will be done about it?
This is obviously an important first step in addressing the critics of the medical staff for the Twins but it is not the last step. Here are the things I will be looking for to see if this turns into something I would look on as a positive change:


Trainer is filled from outside this organization. A fresh way of doing things is a must.
Trainer is interviewed by a beat reporter and addresses in some way the issues that have frustrated fans and what they look to either do about it or how the fans have misconceptions about those issues.
We have surgeries this November and December on this team instead of Spring Training.


The one I am most interested in above is someone from outside this org and that applies to all the coaching spots. If this turns into a migration of folks from Rochester to Minneapolis then these firings are pointless. If we take select guys from Rochester and fill this trainer spot and one or two other coaching positions with fresh voices then this has a chance to matter somewhat.

Thrylos
10-05-2012, 05:15 PM
I haven't bothered to sit down and look this up, but I have to wonder how many managers in the past have had consecutive 90-loss seasons and not been replaced.

I asked this on another thread. I do know of one for sure, and it illustrates the current problem. Tom Kelly. 97,98,99,00 (with loss totals of 97,92,97,93).

And who was the GM then?

Thrylos
10-05-2012, 05:17 PM
Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).

Morneau should have been traded in the deadline... $14 million is way too much for his production. Willingham is making half as much and Parmelee can fit in. That $14 million would (and I hope will) go a long way toward fixing the rotation

And if Morneau does not like the fact that Vavry was reassigned, he can follow him in his new team, if there will be one. He is a free agent after next season.

PseudoSABR
10-05-2012, 05:29 PM
From LEN3

+Paul Molitor is NOT a candidate for a spot on the staff. "Just not a fit," Ryan said.

Thrylos
10-05-2012, 05:52 PM
From LEN3

+Paul Molitor is NOT a candidate for a spot on the staff. "Just not a fit," Ryan said.

I guess being in the Hall of Fame and winning a World Championship and being to the WS twice as a player are not good enough credentials, unlike those of Gardy, Andy (ok he won a WS), Vavry and Scotty...

jokin
10-05-2012, 06:48 PM
I haven't bothered to sit down and look this up, but I have to wonder how many managers in the past have had consecutive 90-loss seasons and not been replaced.

I asked this on another thread. I do know of one for sure, and it illustrates the current problem. Tom Kelly. 97,98,99,00 (with loss totals of 97,92,97,93).

And who was the GM then?

You and your common threads. Stop with your whining facts!

jokin
10-05-2012, 07:01 PM
Pretty much the way it is in every war.

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

Thrylos
10-05-2012, 07:22 PM
Pretty much the way it is in every war.

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

Hatchet?

ok. Let's re-examine who was let go:

2 60+ year old guys and someone who was on the record saying that he will retire after this season.

sounds more like a stapler than a hatchet

Jim H
10-05-2012, 08:29 PM
Actually, I think some changes in the staff were a bit overdue. In fact, over the years Ryan used to bring a younger guy onto the staff every few years. He would often remove a guy who had gotten a little too old or maybe didn't fit as well as he should, or had left for a different opportunity. This staff had stayed almost intact for a long time. While that has some good points, a little change probably should of happened before now.

Clearly, all 3 guys basically fired, were pretty old. While being old shouldn't be an overriding reason for leaving, there are a lot of pretty active things generally required of coaches. Such as pitching batting practice, hitting fungos, etc. There are also communication issues, such as having a Spanish speeching coach, and maybe younger coaches who possibly can relate better to players.

My take is Ryan is taking this opportunity get his coaching staff a little younger, perhaps change a little too comfortable mix, and maybe put a man on the staff who could be a reasonable successor to Gardenhire, when he retires/is fired.

Fire Dan Gladden
10-05-2012, 11:22 PM
From LEN3

+Paul Molitor is NOT a candidate for a spot on the staff. "Just not a fit," Ryan said.

I guess being in the Hall of Fame and winning a World Championship and being to the WS twice as a player are not good enough credentials, unlike those of Gardy, Andy (ok he won a WS), Vavry and Scotty...

Yep, and we all know that every great player makes a great coach. This comment makes no sense and is not supported in any way,

Fire Dan Gladden
10-05-2012, 11:25 PM
Pretty much the way it is in every war.

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

Hatchet?

ok. Let's re-examine who was let go:

2 60+ year old guys and someone who was on the record saying that he will retire after this season.

sounds more like a stapler than a hatchet

Now the factthat they are over 60 yrs old makes them a bad coach? Ageism is against the law you know.

Jim H
10-06-2012, 10:35 AM
Now the factthat they are over 60 yrs old makes them a bad coach? Ageism is against the law you know.

As it happens I am over 60 and can tell you about age and the workplace. Yes, age isn't going to be cited in the release of the various coaches by the Twins. Clearly, however it is a factor. The coaches are required to do any number of active things from throwing batting practice to hitting fungos, to running/hitting infield, etc. If you have too many coaches who are limited in what they can do, it becomes a problem.

I can see the need on the Twins staff for Spanish speaking members and perhaps someone who could be a successor to Gardenhire. Now the Twins aren't going to speak to openly about some of these things, but they likely should of have been addressed gradually over the last few years. Since they weren't, the poor play over the last 2 years offers some justification for doing it now.

Thrylos
10-06-2012, 10:58 AM
Pretty much the way it is in every war.

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

Hatchet?

ok. Let's re-examine who was let go:

2 60+ year old guys and someone who was on the record saying that he will retire after this season.

sounds more like a stapler than a hatchet

Now the factthat they are over 60 yrs old makes them a bad coach? Ageism is against the law you know.

No. The fact that they are in their sixties makes them close to retirement.

old nurse
10-06-2012, 11:04 AM
From LEN3

+Paul Molitor is NOT a candidate for a spot on the staff. "Just not a fit," Ryan said.

I guess being in the Hall of Fame and winning a World Championship and being to the WS twice as a player are not good enough credentials, unlike those of Gardy, Andy (ok he won a WS), Vavry and Scotty...

Coaches have to work together. Perhaps Molitor and Gardenhire are not in the same book? There are plenty people who played in championships that could not manage. It is a different skill set.
Your comments in regards to age of coaches and managers to perform their jobs reflect a limitation of your ability to analyze a situation.

geshirley
10-06-2012, 04:34 PM
I am curious about the Vavra (infield) and Ullger (outfield) pedigrees for their new positions. It lends itself to having one full time and one part time hitting coach if Vavra stays at the major league level, which is kind of unclear at this point. Probably too soon to tell.
I agree that keeping Cuellar and Bruno may have had more to do with this than many will give credit. It will be fun to see who, if anyone, comes up from within the organization.

Here's a little on Joe Vavra from Wikipedia, I've known Joe for 20+ years, (since his days with the Dodgers) he was a very good fielding middle infielder and after his playing days were over he became a very good manager. Despite what you may see from him as a hitting coach, as a manager he is firey and intense and is very entertaining when he goes after an umpire. I'm maybe a little bias since he is a friend but I think he is a very good baseball guy and a assest to the Twins.:D I think that's why he was kept around and reassigned.

Beginning in 1987, Vavra coached in the Dodger's minor league system. While at Yakima, Washington (http://twinsdaily.com/wiki/Yakima_Bears) in Class A (http://twinsdaily.com/wiki/Minor_league_baseball#A), he was named Manager of the Year for 1994 and 1996 for the Northwest League (http://twinsdaily.com/wiki/Northwest_League) after winning the Division title in 1994 and the League championship in 1996. Vavra coached for ten years in the minors before moving to the Dodgers major league staff. He served in special assignments and as a roving coach before becoming the permanent bunting and baserunning coach in 2000.
After a brief stint as the head coach of UW–Stout baseball, Vavra joined the Twins staff in 2002. On October 27, 2005, Vavra was named the Twins' hitting coach.
Vavra attended the 2008 MLB Home Run Derby at Yankee Stadium to pitch for Justin Morneau (http://twinsdaily.com/wiki/Justin_Morneau). Morneau beat Josh Hamilton (http://twinsdaily.com/wiki/Josh_Hamilton) to win the Home Run Derby.
During Vavra's tenure in Minnesota, the Twins have consistently ranked among the best in the league for both individual and team hitting stats.

Fire Dan Gladden
10-06-2012, 04:51 PM
Pretty much the way it is in every war.

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

Hatchet?

ok. Let's re-examine who was let go:

2 60+ year old guys and someone who was on the record saying that he will retire after this season.

sounds more like a stapler than a hatchet

Now the factthat they are over 60 yrs old makes them a bad coach? Ageism is against the law you know.

No. The fact that they are in their sixties makes them close to retirement.

Somebody better tell Jim Leyland, Davey Johnson, Charlie Manuel, Dusty Baker, and Ron Washington that they are too old to be managing.

Fire Dan Gladden
10-06-2012, 05:08 PM
Now the factthat they are over 60 yrs old makes them a bad coach? Ageism is against the law you know.

As it happens I am over 60 and can tell you about age and the workplace. Yes, age isn't going to be cited in the release of the various coaches by the Twins. Clearly, however it is a factor. The coaches are required to do any number of active things from throwing batting practice to hitting fungos, to running/hitting infield, etc. If you have too many coaches who are limited in what they can do, it becomes a problem.

I can see the need on the Twins staff for Spanish speaking members and perhaps someone who could be a successor to Gardenhire. Now the Twins aren't going to speak to openly about some of these things, but they likely should of have been addressed gradually over the last few years. Since they weren't, the poor play over the last 2 years offers some justification for doing it now.

As a manager that has managed hundreds of employees, I can tell you that statement is garbage, even in sports.

Let's start with an easy one: NBA officials. NBA officials generally get better with age. Many of them are in their late 50's and early 60's with no signs of slowing down. Heck, Dick Bavetta, considered one of the best refs in the league, turns 73 in December. Don't think they have to be physically fit in their jobs?

The list of D1 Baskteball coaches over the age of 60 is too long to list.

MLB: Jim Leyland, Davey Johnson, Charlie Manuel, Dusty Baker, Ron Washington...

Maybe you couldn't physically handle the rigors of professional sports at your age, but don't lump everybodyu into the same boat. I would much rather have a qualified individual in their 60's or 70's than a leeser one in their 40's. If anybody tells you otherwise, they are a poor decision maker.

Paul
10-08-2012, 05:42 PM
The "bloodbath" seems to me to be a perfectly logical first step to regain the clubhouse. It's either this or you have a fire sale. It's essential for the on field staff, the players, and the FO to all be pulling in the same direction. There's a tremendous value in that synergy.