PDA

View Full Version : Debate I



TheLeviathan
10-03-2012, 09:38 PM
Romney held his own pretty well tonight no? Better than I would've thought at least, maybe it was more an off-night for Obama, but a tad surprising.

drjim
10-03-2012, 10:42 PM
I thought Romney waxed Obama tonight. Obama looked tired, bored and/or distracted.

I generally think Romney is full of it, but he is extremely confident in his presentation. It also seemed like Romney left a ton of openings for Obama to jab him and Obama never took it. I wonder if that was the gameplan - if so it was a poor one.

TheLeviathan
10-03-2012, 10:49 PM
I liked Romney's crack about how Obama kept saying his plan had no details and then attacked details. He seemed quick witted and pretty decisive in the way he attacked Obama's differences from him. It was a surprisingly effective debate for Romney.

drjim
10-03-2012, 11:43 PM
I liked Romney's crack about how Obama kept saying his plan had no details and then attacked details. He seemed quick witted and pretty decisive in the way he attacked Obama's differences from him. It was a surprisingly effective debate for Romney.

I'm curious, why are you that surprised with the debate performance of Romney? He has always been considered a strong debater and Obama is generally considered a weaker one (especially compared to his speech ability). I wonder if the 20 or so debates Romney had in the past year helped him while the fact Obama hasn't had a debate in 4 years cost him. I will be interested to see how the next two go.

Overall I just felt like Obama looked tired and beat down and Romney seized the initiative and never let it go.

flpmagikat
10-04-2012, 12:40 AM
It looked like both players were bored with the game and on the defensive. Neither won, mitt played even which is winning, but its a weak opponinent. Ill still take the guy who isnt a bigot.

TheLeviathan
10-04-2012, 10:09 AM
No one is requiring you to change your mind about candidates but even hard leftwingers were calling that a blowout for Romney.

What surprised me jim was that we saw Gov Romney last night who seemed to care less about appealing to the Hannity-type base of the party. I think that was a huge part of why he destroyed most of the meager Obama attacks. He seemed magnimous, rational, and more prepared than Obama on every front. I think it was just how much better he was than Obama, I didn't expecft it to be that lopsided.

PseudoSABR
10-04-2012, 11:05 AM
Romney was more poised, brief, and exacting, while Obama appeared frustrated, wonkish and rambly. I think Obama came in not wanting to make mistakes nor change the dynamics of the race--in that point, the President perhaps succeeded, but was it worth it looking more meek among the two? I do think Obama got the best zinger; "Romeny's new tax plan: Nevermind."

Romeny still strikes me, even in winning the debate, as an empty suit. He didn't clarify any of his ideas for me, he muddled them and even retracted positions that he taken before. Maybe he wins the debate by offering adamant abstractions, but I'm not sure that moves the electorate.

gunnarthor
10-04-2012, 11:13 AM
I'm not going to vote for either guy but Romney won. I think one problem Obama had was he wasn't able to point out the false/myths/lies that Romney was able to constantly put out there. One reason, I think, might be that Obama is so insulated (just like Bush) that he wasn't ready for an actual confrontation with Romney over ideas. He just didn't seem well prepared.

TheLeviathan
10-04-2012, 03:44 PM
Romeny still strikes me, even in winning the debate, as an empty suit. He didn't clarify any of his ideas for me, he muddled them and even retracted positions that he taken before. Maybe he wins the debate by offering adamant abstractions, but I'm not sure that moves the electorate.

Was it really more abstract than any other debate? I guess I'm not familiar with detailed debates, the time frame usually makes them about principles not details. In fact, I thought this debate was refreshingly more nuanced than most. Both candidates tried to get specific when talking about particular legislation. In my eyes, this was one of the better debates I can remember for talking specifically rather than broadly.

The devil is in the details so it's probably not best to evaluate policy changes by debates anyway. But it's hard, as someone who believes being practical is important, not to strongly favor Romney's abstract take on Dodd-Frank for instance. Now I know that he has backdoor intentions and part of this isn't genuine, but his argument was "regulation is ok, but not all regulation is ok. Sometimes, some part of legislation are bad" to which Obama basically replied "well better to do something bad than nothing." Which A) doesn't answer the question and b) is pretty much in line with every liberal driven policy change on social welfare, college funding, etc. It's admitting your own legislation's awful unintended consequences, throwing up your hands, shrugging, and blaming someone else.

Good god. That, for me, totally encapsulates the problem with the left. I'm still probably going to throw my vote away on some third party or write-in, but Romney at least got me interested in seeing how long this Rational Romney is going to stay around.

biggentleben
10-04-2012, 04:01 PM
Frankly, neither one of them will be able to get done any of "their" plans without the help of Congress, so why do we care what anyone's "plan" is? Romney could have a plan to have every person in America be making six figures before the end of his presidency. It's not logical or probable, but neither is either candidate's economic plans in totality or their foreign policy plans or their health care plans or a single bit of what they're selling. Rather than talking about plans that neither of them has the overarching power to make happen on their own, I'd love to see a return to a Nixon/Kennedy type of debate where we were truly exploring the candidate's feelings and position on an issue, not so focused on what the plan was.

drjim
10-04-2012, 07:07 PM
One reason, I think, might be that Obama is so insulated (just like Bush) that he wasn't ready for an actual confrontation with Romney over ideas. He just didn't seem well prepared.

I think this is a good observation. There are many striking parallels between this election and 2004 up to the strong performance that Kerry had in the first debate. Good for Romney, but some of the polling following the debate was interesting. It was a knockout victory for Romney and people seemed to indicate they'll take another look at him, but there didn't seem to be any negative movement against Obama. In a sense he held his position while allowing Romney to move forward to claim some of the undecideds. I'm not sure it is enough, Obama has a huge chunk of states to play with, Romney really needs to move the needle to have a chance. I'm not convinced one debate can do that.

gunnarthor
10-05-2012, 12:08 PM
One reason, I think, might be that Obama is so insulated (just like Bush) that he wasn't ready for an actual confrontation with Romney over ideas. He just didn't seem well prepared.

I think this is a good observation. There are many striking parallels between this election and 2004 up to the strong performance that Kerry had in the first debate. Good for Romney, but some of the polling following the debate was interesting. It was a knockout victory for Romney and people seemed to indicate they'll take another look at him, but there didn't seem to be any negative movement against Obama. In a sense he held his position while allowing Romney to move forward to claim some of the undecideds. I'm not sure it is enough, Obama has a huge chunk of states to play with, Romney really needs to move the needle to have a chance. I'm not convinced one debate can do that.

Agreed. Today's job report was a big boon for Obama. Romney really needs a run on those swing states. Romney could win FL, OH and VI and still realistically lose. Unless all that super-PAC money sways a lot of voters, Romney is going to need some sort of October surprise.

glunn
10-06-2012, 03:02 PM
Ninety minutes does not seem like enough time to cover what needs to be covered. I would like to see the debates be at least three hours, with strict cutoffs when the candidates go ever the allotted time for each answer.

Frozented9
10-07-2012, 06:37 PM
http://twinsdaily.com/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAUcAAABuCAYAAAC 0ndEhAAAaAklEQVR4nO2dfZAUxd3HG+fXc3cgKirh5XZ7jhdRw ZeKqIhBvYLbnjt8ACNeTFIGYzSYMlGjMTH6aJ7ZnkNQFE18IRh RE6MoqIivqDGnNz3LHbfGMhWCL0nKRIIvMcYoiG/Qzx87fTe37N0tsDt7TPenqqvYl5npz+7el5l+G4R2gWw2K3bl/XsrqnhKtG88UcVTUnLfbDYrdNFFF1106Vkqm8wDFFU8Jdo3nqj iKamoryoftiqeEu0bT1TxlOhwjABVPCXaN56o4inR4RgBqnhKt G88UcVTosMxAlTxlGjfeKKKp0SHYwSo4inRvvFEFU+JDscIUMV Ton3jiSqeEh2OEaCKp0T7xhNVPCU6HCNAFU+J9o0nqnhKdDhGg CqeEu0bT1TxlOhwjABVPCXaN56o4inR4RgBqnhKtG88UcVTUnL fSk/u1kUXXaIpa3/niW/9ZLmYOGeh+Pldj1W8PgO9VDaZByiqeEq0b/wgNpu0aOlqkWh0jkIIoWSKfZtQ9jGhTARlW4KyKZWuZymp6Peq wo8KIXU8Jdo3PlgN7MuEsj+GQnC7RVm7fGxRtppQ9+7g8WbLXj Cq0nUuFTocI0AVT4n23TshKXaW1eiejhBCqN4By3Z/RCj7JAi+95ovuV0QyrYFj7cmU+lvyPcSyp4jlAnLZgsq6VBKdD hGgCqeEu2795FMsSu7zg5T7HFisz8Ej3dYNL1kfNMvqrLZrBgz s8WyUu7VSeocEd6+rqHlhOD9b6LmlUalPEqJDscIUMVTon33Li yaPpdQtoNQ9gWh7INQSL5h0XSTfF9/noSyPxPKRMJ2G8tf6/KjwzECVPGUaN/imdTsmImpS2rynx8zY8GIunqnes9q1j+koWUaoezTIBDnJ1PO6 CRlyy3KrsqvV3+eFmWXEcoEsd2V5a11NOhwjABVPCXat3/q6p1qYrMfEsreIZRtJTR9XR11DhszY8EIi6Zbgra910c2XTO8H HVGCKHaJidBKHubUCaSlC3u7/39edbNdEYSyj4nlH1SznpHhQ7HCFDFU6J9+2Zk0zXDCWXZUA9w X6VtUrNjlrrOYxsW7R9qV3ymmHbCYjwJZY/k9pnuqKt3DihNbSuDDscIUMVTon17hzQ4YwllG4Oe3VeTKXd2w m45PgiVvxHK3k/S9DpC07MIZW8GbX9LS1nf8U2/qEqmWGsQjK8kbOfAYrYrKhxzfm8Gw3ye2vPaVg4djhGgiqdE++ 5M7QxnAqHsHkLZZ7lQcl8cXe8c3Nc2lu0c0zV0JpVu3p26JZvc cUnq/i+x3ZXEZmtJiq0nlP0zCMZNY2a2WMXuq9jvNWE74wllf0qmWo7 dnToPFHQ4RoAqnhLti9DoWc7gJGVfJ5TNtyi7tTsU2XZC2YPFX nImKbsg2O6DpJ2ek6QtJ/ffUSMGEdttsCh7qo/L9bcSDezIPfXsFcfZZ1f2PRDR4RgBqnhKVPcdM7PFsqj7cl4Yf U4oW1Y7w5mwq/snlK3K29crhfcjBiVp+sy8Y28llK0iNptn0XRTgrIptTOcCbvT E67696rOwSNEFU+Jir6Hzr52KKHuhRZN32ZR9q4MMULZMkLZjX XUOWx3919X7xxAbPYrQtmzhLK/BPt+n1D2KKHssaTNTkIIoSRli0OhuCmZYpeOb3L2K6Vnqfa1N1 By30qvfKHL3l06OjrFuvb1Oz1/z4PPioceb614/QqVR9e+IE48a0mPy9bTfrBUtPH2kh+LZzrE13LT+LrKhP9ZIC5 deJ+wbCbGzWwR7i0PFfwMdalsqWwyD1BU8ZT05zt6ljM4/7mxDQ6xUu7Vwbi7LRZNnytfIzR9djCDY1uykR1XhirvJmIQsdP fPXTWNTKoNhLKLkqk2CnlbXMTg0gqPSNpp+eQlPubvEvu+eU6q v4dq3LwCFHFU9Kb76Gzrx2apOzh4I/4nWA4ybNyaEuB8jShbGHQXiefe7NupjMyaqcwSZudRGjaCXp+u 1anKeUlbNE0rzQsylbkBnK7d5TzUPp3rMrBI0QVT4RyY+juWLF WEMomT568DBM7/S2SYo8nKbuXpNiGIEy+KBCE/yXUvd9qZFMJZfODjoTu11PpRYSmXwgebyYplt6TdrzdYXS9c3C Ssnvz6v2Pm+58tMLfrxiU63kWg8p5FJV+xwjpcIwEVTxzYcjWh ILj451CMMU2JJvccbVNTsKi7nRiuw11DS0noHoHwvuqbXISVoq dl6RsuZVyv4+QGDSOOl8i1H0xvD+Lui8n7fQcuZ1F3TGEssnJR nYcoWxywnbG5+97d0g0OkcRyjYHx92STLGbCXXPGD3LGazK96u Kp0SHYwRUwrMcl54klW627PTcQq9NanZMOeTksNnXiNBA49cJZ fMtm32TpNhZpbj0rGt06wl1f0so+zA4xo6knb4l6L0tdHm+nVD 2Sl+DkkmTMzFYtPWvJDdT5W+Esr8mU+whQtlFQe+wSKZYK2lwx oa31b/jeKLDsQxManbMQ2dfO1Q+7uzMCkLdKwhlHxHK3iKUPUeoe4VFW 04kNO0Q6t5ObDZJvn98k7MfsdnPCHXvz183rz+slDvTouz5IBQ emdTsmJMnL8OkoWVafkfI2AaHWHZ6bjFBmrTTc2TYJO00y389t Br0f+5f85xAjrOPRd0x5VzbLzF1SU0QXJ+GgvAjkpu3LMtrXa+ n2Bvk1IXDEMot/JBbxZptDzqBtvcSrKGzVLai0FloXH/H+ajiKdHhWGKCJaD+TSjbFlxiLms6/5ZiFhjYQlLsJ8RO3xRs3zV42KLs1rENi/bPP1aSOkcEf/xvEZq+Lrx8fVeQUfYkCZa5t2z2qkXd6Vaje7plu/eFOjq+IDb7XZK6l4xpdA/dyenUhcNCl5Q7CGXCSrl3yulvQS+zIJR9XNfQckLU32vQTvlck jK3dsY1B+W/HpzVcvkfRrLJHUe6FkjoKp+QFFuaaHSOIg3OWNLgjCU2m0RS7s XEZmuSdpr1FvRx/B0XQhVPiQ7HEkJOXTgsSdnfewm/94jtNoxsuma4ZafnBkMwssHg3l8XOEt5KkndO2SA5fbrXkgom0 8aWqYlprfUkhR7o8BxNhHKfppIsVPyQvazAu/9hNhpj3QvfZ8LP9tdmWxyxyEUtCOm2APBa5kkdU8j3Uvnf0Dk4 giUbZfzfwfi95pr4+wanC3Lf5KplmMT01tqC/3nUywD0bccqOIp0eFYAuoanTpis3mEsmdkiNQ2OQmSYmcRyuYv Wrpa1DY5ib72EYzle8yi7KrwJTZpciYWOiPsvgxMd5KGlmlJO8 2SlF0QnhaWoGxKbrhJ+rqE7RxIbHZtcAnZlkyxK+Xl9PB6Z18r lf4qsdldhLItwf4/JdS9PdRDvE32DlsN7uGkZ/ve2yTlni+PO1C/V0LZ5GAo0V8IZRst2nJiKfY7UH1LjSqekr0jHEvQ21gMCcqmJG 32vRF08ZBitwkWDP0gFBQfyrMuyR5/yPUOBAujLrNS7p2ke1zga6W+25tlLxiVpGw56dkGt5k0tEzLf2 +SOkeMsdnR+UNI9B9RPFHFU1Ix38TUJTXFHDzXYcHeSdgtx3c9 6Tj7WDS9hFD2RDLljO5t27pGpy64dF0zZsaCEaPrnYOTdvocYr sNPc6wbGd8cNa0Q575yYb7fuuXSi/KbeO+ZNnsBst2jsl/Tzk+5NxKy+Ub11ZHncOCIH6wr8+4EPqPKJ6o4imJ3Ld2xjUHBY 3hr6/v7Oz7nhT2glGkuydyo7ynBcnNmuhqY+ttiEaPRneb/Yv0HHe3lVDGic3Whs6SPg11PLxGbHaXZbMbcgHoXphMuTS8/Pvwemdf0jXEo/dhIvpHFW9U8VXFU1Jy3/4mX6/v7BTHff16QSgTS+95os/3/mjRfT3a2eZdvlz8gN0jCGVibFOLmH7OzwWhTBxy6gJx7bLV4nl vnVi49GHx87seE7f+5glBKBOHz1koUufdLAhlos5m4rQLl4qTz 75JWHb3fg85dYGYf/Xd4vFn2sSzrb74ylk39tqrPG5mizj//34tVj/ZKq6+caUglImm82+p+KR2XXTRZWCXogI0mWKXEsrErAtu63WDx NQlNaHexYtIz/m1O4jN5k2evAwHg3+7hr3sFGgp9+LcTcfdM8KDd+tmOiPrGt16 y07PzR/+MYIuHpK003Msyr5jUXYZsd3LLZq+jeSGg+zIP0Z4hkZv/2EU9cHEBO0bT1TxlFTEt67eOYBQtsWymQivRlzb5CSC8Xf/JrmZCoLQdAdCCCVp+kxiszXJVPp6i7rTw/sLeoo/Jrk5u0+T7psXtZW6MyfRwI4M5tduIrkxiCv6W4FF/6jijSq+qnhKKuZLaPqXRA5ApixLqPsS2Xku7mf9nZVJxjc5+4X vyVFoMHCl0D+qeKOKryqekor5WvaCUXN+sFR2gnRfLlO2ijQ5E 8fY7GiLumMqUrkSo39U8UYVX1U8JRX1zWazYgRdPCSRYqckKJs yZsaCERWrTBnRP6p4o4qvKp6SiodjxQ4eIap4SrRvPFHFU6LDM QJU8ZRo33iiiqdEh2MEqOIp0b7xRBVPiQ7HCFDFU6J944kqnhI djhGgiqdE+8YTVTwlOhwjQBVPifaNJ6p4SnQ4RoAqnhLtG09U8 ZTocIwAVTwl2jeeqOIpKblvpVe+0EUXXXQZiEWHoy666KJLgVL Z09YBiiqeEu0bT1TxlFTUV5UPWxVPifaNJ6p4SnQ4RoAqnhLtG 09U8ZTocIwAVTwl2jeeqOIp0eEYAap4SrRvPFHFU6LDMQJU8ZR o33iiiqek4uH4NEJD2gBO8TCe0o6QXuw2BmjfeKKKp6Rivm0Ij cqcfJLgGD7lGERQdngAq9pMc6KH8dEvVFfr2yTshWjfeKKKp6R ivhwbvwwC8QuOIcsxvMQxfBwKSsExfOabRlE32GpHaL9WhLpus NWBkL7BVoXQvvFEFU9JRXxbETqAY9jCTSwyptl1a9b2GpTwMb6 PY/g3x8ZfOQbhYehACCFuGmdygDU+hut9gB63ZvWwMS8I1i+4CU8H YSs4hrZWhEp6a9aMaR7JMb6XA2ziGD73MF4hENK3Zg2hfeOJKp 6Sivj6AJdyDCLzlRN7PXgGoRqO4V2OQfgYX8QxfN7j8hsb87II YY6NW0LPf5535ik8jC9uRQh80zjDq64eK/ffitBID6DeN425+WeZTyM0xDeNOR7G3+EAl3kAl3Ns3MYxcI5h R/4x+ju71T+qeKOKryqekpL79jvHcP164VtEcAyi46Yb+3xv+/nze4TQutmzRfvZ83KPB9cI/6gjc/8euq/ocByR/f3vRUeLKzpuuF50LLkhF1wHDhOZY76ce1+VKTKnnCz8iYcLbuL ufQ/dV6z7WrPoXLNGdK5dKzITDhH5AdhVhgwW7d/4uli/apVov+QSwTGIzPHHVXzepi666DKwS7/h2YHQQRzgEY6N17Pr1/e5QRtCo0IdNhszCNUghBA3YWFXWAFs4hgfW2j73HG6gu1feW2a WzkG7pmwlmPYHjz3KTdhc+5sFV7j2LjLw3CDb8IiH+MLfQDaht Bwuf9WhPblGN7PbVu4DvI/jH4/mBihfeOJKp6SivlmEKop5uCeCQ7H8E4G4+PlcwKhfTiGJdyEJ/hgNLq3bddVV9dxDFkOsKYdoRGtCB3sY3yOB9DQilB1V12qqsZz bNwVumTOeAgNK8bDN2FRsM1LHoYb2jA+Jv895fiQ2xAaLhAaVO r9SjKmeZiHjTs5wIN9fcaF0H9E8UQVT0lFfYs9eKk7VXrDw3gK x/h7TyM0pNht2mtQgmP4IHRG+qFfVTUu/J49/ZBbEQKO8Q85xg/4GK/kGDbKs9s2hEbtyb7zaUNolI+N5aGzacFN2MwBpuW/1zfNIzyMj84Paf1HFE9U8ZTsFeE40FlXXV0X9Jg/I888g573czyAy9t//GPRXoMSfe2DY+Ns34THPICruGlOks+3meZEjqG9QPunDK9ODjC Nm7A46HzqOiPOhT2s5yZcl0HoQM+EazmGtzmGNg5wZStCIxHKN Q94pvHV4Ox5i2xi8LBxO8fwQvB4W8Y0D0MIoXWmeTgHeDRUl7c 5xufL4w7U79XDeDIHeJhj4y8cw8YMwIml2O9A9S01qnhKdDiWE A+hYRzjv/fSmfOeB9DQhtBw3zTm+hj/JncGaPyKY/zrnd5vwlMcG3d098Djv3sYf8czjWYOMC1Tg2o5xm/stB3AJg7w0zaAU3JDorrHjBao0yccg8cxbAuPBPAxXinPfnMjA vADMvTbTOO0YDvBMXzgAbwpw9ozjWaEBub3Gpzhv5vn/x+O8bGZGlSbRWj/3d33QPQtB6p4SnQ4lhgOMC0IpW0+wGrfhEWZE6f23vvdXbb4AD/xMdyUF2qfc2zcUuiP1zfNI3wMr3ET3uImXFfwDNOEJzmGPwaPX/UBpnPTOD0YTyqHPn3hY/gdx/gSXlV1aP5xPISGyY4q2S7rYeNOOeieA1wdvPYxx/iEqL9XH2Aqx/Ccb4JbaPD/BoRMnhuGJTjAo22mOTGvsy74j8JY2maaR3nV1WO96uqx3DQneR hfzAHWcBPYSoSMQseP4++4EKp4SnQ4loENCJkcoaHycbazU3CA KziGj7gJb3EMz3KAKzIAJ3omOB42bg9fSrcjtB8H+BnH+H7fNI/YlWNzw5jpY3g+CIJHNiBkZhHCHGBaFqHBPd5bg4hvGnPl5XVf+ KYxJxS4bKfjYny3PBvrvOceIRDa54Xq6jG9BUopyCBUE4yBDU9 B/YjnJgFkOYZsbtSBfB2/ITvaWhGq9gFWB80Tb/doY+2leBivKNT+HdffcT6qeEp0OEZAJTyLCbxdxTONZt805hZ6 LYsQ9gBWcQyCDztAcIB/5kLFeN3DeD43jW/6pnFWO0L77XE9AOo5xr/lGD7sPps1bslrB81vn32lr+FWubZdfHduZlaoADwUBHAwZAtaw 5MJENK/47iiwzEClPHMnaGuCYVS/lx5wTFs8KuqxrXXoASvMmbLNtT8M7JcGyE+z8fGcg/j7wuEBvkIfcnH8GLe/l4Oz1B6obp6jIfxZFkyVVXjSzHaoc00jwo1LWzh2LjZN40zsgg NVub7VcRTosMxAlTxRAihJxGqWn/rrcLDeHIWIexh41vchMc5xvdyDBtkG2eB0Pwvx/h+H2Cqh/F8nhukH5qiCYu47Dk3YTM3IS17z6OiFaGDA49QvfE/OhYtrOj3KxAalDHNI8s57hUhtX7HCOlwjARVPCW9+XKEhuaG0o DgGN7hJjwVHrdZoDPp6WA2VNeceQ/gzXI0GewKHOCkYHLC+q7wBlhdiiaDXWUlQoaH8YqgCeOOch5L/45VOXiEqOIp6c83v2MIoVznUNDr/XbushWf2/UaNs4Oesm3+RgfV4467w4CoUE+xt/lB+wvA32jj/FFbQCn9LdS054etw1ghm8ac4IhYeFOo/nlOq7+HZdgh7rostulvV10ZjI7Pb9++XLR+cADla9fgdL58MPC P2R8j7PedSefJLLPP1/6Y3meWJdK9TiWv99Q0f7d8wQ3sfCHDBbtV1xR8DPUpbKlssk8Q FHFU6KiL0doqI/xhcHSdu/Knnof45U+Nm7dk/bR3Pqnxl0cQzY06P59DvCob8JjHOAkhBDiJizuCk2ATT7ApaW8 1Ffxe1Xz4BGiiqdEdV+/Glkcw8t5baif+9hY5lVVTdjV/XcNkeourxTaj0BoEDeNM/OOvdUDWOVhYx43jCYP4yleVdWE8DTT3fWMOzocI0AVT4n2zbWr +qYxxzONZo6Nm3n39M3tHODBVoQOKGbfHsYXBNt94ANMb8P4mG KCzQNoyE1B7WVQuwlvhVfh313P3ihnm2tU6HCMAFU8Jdp3Z7yq qgkc43tkSPoYXmwN3fOoEG0YH8ODee9y3vqu4ldVjeMAV3oYrw jWLl3fNUAfYJNfjaxi91Xs95pbAhD+1Neg+70BHY4RoIqnRPv2 jlddPTY0dOlVXmXMzmB8fLAA9N+CmTjrvCpjVnf7orG0lPV9Eq EqjqFV1iGD0IHFbFfUfwLV1WO76m3CU3te28qhwzECVPGUaN++ aUNoOO++CVx/pW0DQmbJ64zQ/hzDH4JjPFPMHPhiPOWCHh6GjmKbDgYqOhwjQBVPifbtn1aEqnM LGMM7HMNWbsJ1GdM8rB2hEZ4JLbnLaeP18G05Sk2wjNvbwVne4 v7e359nK0IjgwH7n5Sz3lGhwzECVPGUaN/i2YCQKe+NFCa4rccu9yjvKsESe5/KAeR8MBrtY2O5B3BVfr368+QAl+XaU/HK8tY6GnQ4RoAqnhLtu3fBMT43mIH0Be9xyw/8BjeMJvm+/jw9DH8Opng2lr/W5UeHYwSo4inRvnsfHODK0DCfx0PtkTs4hiVPIlSVzWaFX40sD nB1/jqjHOMT5Nz3cq7hGSU6HCNAFU+J9t078U3jLG4apyOUu6mbB/Aj3n1LjPfWNTQI3n1Lja2eaXxDvpdjeC4I1gWVtSgdOhwjQBVP ifaNDxmMv8y7b7MhFw7uuh1HbjX1YBV4EzaX+m6YlUSHYwSo4i nRvvGDm+akjp/9TLSZ5lEIIeRj/G3eczHjbR7GUypdz1JS8u+10itf6KKLLtGUziceF+tmzRL8oAN Fx7WLKl6fgV4qm8wDFFU8Jdo3nqjiKamoryoftiqeEu0bT1Txl OhwjABVPCXaN56o4inR4RgBqnhKtG88UcVTosMxAlTxlGjfeKK Kp0SHYwSo4inRvvFEFU+JDscIUMVTon3jiSqeEh2OEaCKp0T7x hNVPCU6HCNAFU+J9o0nqnhKdDhGgCqeEu0bT1TxlOhwjABVPCX aN56o4inR4RgBqnhKtG88UcVTUnLfSk/u1kUXXXQZiKWyyTxAUcVTon3jiSqeklL7/j9JXoSZ/KiscwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

I found this interesting. It be fun to see what stops this tide or if it just dies out on it's own. And how close this brings Mitt to Obama.

Edit I tried to post a pic of the Chance of
Winning graph at 538.


http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/

Shane Wahl
10-09-2012, 08:36 AM
It is disturbing that apparently millions of Americans can be swayed by a sham of a debate that covered nothing, had one of its contestants playing prevent defense and allowing touchdown after touchdown, and had the other one lying left and right.

TheLeviathan
10-09-2012, 07:40 PM
It is disturbing that apparently millions of Americans can be swayed by a sham of a debate that covered nothing, had one of its contestants playing prevent defense and allowing touchdown after touchdown, and had the other one lying left and right.

You're aware that both sides utilize these things called advertisements that are less substantive, often far more hyperbolic and riddled with lies, and strategically designed to mislead far more often and far more effectively right? Just want to be sure, because - if you are aware of this - it makes your point seem a lot less reasonable.

drjim
10-09-2012, 07:51 PM
It is disturbing that apparently millions of Americans can be swayed by a sham of a debate that covered nothing, had one of its contestants playing prevent defense and allowing touchdown after touchdown, and had the other one lying left and right.

You're aware that both sides utilize these things called advertisements that are less substantive, often far more hyperbolic and riddled with lies, and strategically designed to mislead far more often and far more effectively right? Just want to be sure, because - if you are aware of this - it makes your point seem a lot less reasonable.

This. Plus the fundamental fact that Obama had trouble providing a defense of his record and providing a positive reason for a second term (even if it stretched the truth a little). Doesn't mean he can't recover and win some of those voters back.

PseudoSABR
10-09-2012, 11:10 PM
It is disturbing that apparently millions of Americans can be swayed by a sham of a debate that covered nothing, had one of its contestants playing prevent defense and allowing touchdown after touchdown, and had the other one lying left and right.

You're aware that both sides utilize these things called advertisements that are less substantive, often far more hyperbolic and riddled with lies, and strategically designed to mislead far more often and far more effectively right? Just want to be sure, because - if you are aware of this - it makes your point seem a lot less reasonable.He's not talking about advertising though. Sure Obama's ads distort the truth, but it's far different for a candidate to be the mouth piece for such distortions.

That said, this is the first time Romney's been a palatable candidate for the center; so a lot of people I believe are unaware of his prior positions, and just how much he's swiveled from the summer. I don't believe that many Americans are swayed by Romney's debate to actually vote for him...though I do think, many more are churning the idea over.

Brock Beauchamp
10-10-2012, 08:29 AM
That in itself is probably my biggest beef with Romney. Who is this guy? Is he the guy that was a very moderate governor of Massachusetts, is he the vocal mouthpiece we saw for the right during the primaries (and the run up to the primaries), or is he again the moderate he claimed to be during the debate?

I don't see how anyone can be comfortable voting for a man that so completely reverses his positions on issues to fit what he believes the voters want to hear on that particular day. Going into the primaries, I was pretty high on Romney (still liked Huntsman better and that is about 1000% more true today, at least that guy has common sense and conviction, plus he's whip-smart) but after seeing Mitt waffle constantly and directly contradict his own opinions from his time as Governor, I no longer have the slightest bit of respect for the man. I've gone from slightly positive to ambivalent to believing he is a deceitful menace in the course of a year. Pretty amazing, actually.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-10-2012, 09:06 AM
Pig hit it on the head, even the folks I know who usually vote republican are refusing to vote for Romney, he will never pick up the independent vote (along with the women's vote, latino vote, black vote, under 35 vote etc)

The republicans need to figure out eventually that they can't just keep appealing to the middle american white male.

ChiTownTwinsFan
10-10-2012, 11:51 AM
That in itself is probably my biggest beef with Romney. Who is this guy?

I've heard people say they will support Mitt because they don't like Obama, to which I reply, "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't." We won't know who we'd be getting until it's too late. Not that I would've voted for him anyway. Still not sure who I'll vote for but likely for the devil I know.

TheLeviathan
10-10-2012, 05:17 PM
He's not talking about advertising though. Sure Obama's ads distort the truth, but it's far different for a candidate to be the mouth piece for such distortions.

Did a bad debate showing collectively crotch-kick the intelligence of all liberals? His point was that it was ridiculous that people got swayed by a debate that he perceives as distorted. The fact is - both sides use much shorter, much more distorted efforts to sway people CONSTANTLY. And IT WORKS. It was a stupid point that I'm hearing from lots of people on the left. If Romney was distorted and vague in a debate and it was effective - it's nothing new to politics. And it's insanely stupid to suggest otherwise.

Lefties just need to accept that their guy had a bad showing. I still think he's the lead dog in the race, but he opened a door for Romney that Romney desperately needed. It had nothing to do with Romney and everything to do with his poor showing. There was nothing unique about the debate either. The excuses just get old, so I apologize if my patience with them is thin.

TheLeviathan
10-10-2012, 05:20 PM
but after seeing Mitt waffle constantly and directly contradict his own opinions from his time as Governor, I no longer have the slightest bit of respect for the man. I've gone from slightly positive to ambivalent to believing he is a deceitful menace in the course of a year. Pretty amazing, actually.

In principle I agree. But here's the thing - aren't both bases basically forcing candidates into insane primary positions? We saw a very different Obama last year after his primary too. To me, one reason I am at least entertaining Romney is that I'm seeing the man who actually governed in a manner I can respect re-emerge. If my vote goes to that man, I guess I can forgive the primaries as a means to an end. But I'm very cautious because of what the primaries showed.

Brock Beauchamp
10-10-2012, 06:32 PM
but after seeing Mitt waffle constantly and directly contradict his own opinions from his time as Governor, I no longer have the slightest bit of respect for the man. I've gone from slightly positive to ambivalent to believing he is a deceitful menace in the course of a year. Pretty amazing, actually.

In principle I agree. But here's the thing - aren't both bases basically forcing candidates into insane primary positions? We saw a very different Obama last year after his primary too. To me, one reason I am at least entertaining Romney is that I'm seeing the man who actually governed in a manner I can respect re-emerge. If my vote goes to that man, I guess I can forgive the primaries as a means to an end. But I'm very cautious because of what the primaries showed.

It's one of the biggest problems with the primary process but Romney is going above and beyond with talking out of both sides of his mouth. I expect to see a little back-tracking and double-speak in an election campaign. What I don't expect to see are direct contradictions from previous stances and lots of 'em... on almost a daily basis.

At this point, I have no idea what to expect from the man and that virtually negates any chance he has of getting my vote. All I see is a guy who is pushing another form of trickle-down (really, again?) and being incredibly vague on how he plans to balance the budget when simple math says it's impossible based on the few details he has given us. If he had the courage to stand up and actually lay out a real plan, I'd listen. I may disagree with that plan, but I'd at least listen to it and give it a fair shot. Romney has been far too cryptic for my liking (as was Obama during 2008), which leads me to wonder if he has any conviction at all.

PseudoSABR
10-11-2012, 02:55 AM
The fact is - both sides use much shorter, much more distorted efforts to sway people CONSTANTLY. And IT WORKS. The notion that the distortion from left versus right is equivalent in degree or amount is asinine. Sure, Obama and liberals distort the truth and their positions for political convenience, but it is nowhere near the same kind of distortion that happens on the right. The right doesn't believe in evolution; many think Obama is a Muslim The equivalency you are trying to make is absurd. Again, sure both sides lie, but the scope of the lie and the amount of lies actually do matter.

Recapping the position changes: Obama did adopt a healthcare mandate and a more hawkish policy on foreign, but beyond that I think you'd be hard pressed to find substantive differences between Obama's primary policy and his general election policies. As for Romney, it's EVERY SINGLE ISSUE, from abortion to taxes to healthcare. I just don't get why you'd try to equate the two candidates, in terms of their distortion, when it's so clear one is so heavy in the red. I just don't get your angle.

PseudoSABR
10-11-2012, 02:58 AM
All I see is a guy who is pushing another form of trickle-down (really, again?) and being incredibly vague on how he plans to balance the budget when simple math says it's impossible based on the few details he has given us. If he had the courage to stand up and actually lay out a real plan, I'd listen. I may disagree with that plan, but I'd at least listen to it and give it a fair shot.This. What the **** is Romney's plan? All best parts of the best ideas that we've seen so far? Oh boy!

TheLeviathan
10-11-2012, 07:08 AM
I just don't get your angle.

Because you can't see past your own particular political angle. I haven't started a "Lies" tally Dems vs. Repubs - perhaps you should share yours? The notion of one lie being "more" than another is purely based off of perception. We could compare lists on that all day and it wouldn't matter. You don't see the angle because your political persuasion doesn't want you to. I'll recap anyway:

1) Suggesting that people changing their minds from a debate are shallow is truly asinine. Especially given how much both parties use advertising to change minds. If you watched the debate, paid attention, and thought about it - to me that's a great thing. Regardless of political orientation. We should be pleased people are tuning in rather than disparaging them for taking it seriously.
2) The primary process presents distorted candidates - it did for McCain, Obama, Hillary, Romney, etc. It's something we're all going to have to accept as long as it's around.
3) Distortion is a common political ploy that neither party holds a monopoly on. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.
4) Obama lost that debate at a time when a decisive win could have made his re-election pretty much a given. If lefties want to come up with excuses for that I find it pathetic. Apparently, yesterday, even Obama was tired of hearing it and came out and said the same thing.

flpmagikat
10-11-2012, 12:21 PM
No one said anything about changing ones mind based on a commercial being any less shallow. Both just give more constant exposure to those who dont need it, and shut out those who do(every other parties candidates) But there is a big difference between exagerating or omitting, and completely reversing ones stance. Are both dishonest? Yeah. But the later tends to fall into the outright lie category usually.

Its like when you hear the mouthpieces say obama lied, they point to something he promised In 2007-8 that hasnt materialed. When people call romney out, they just point to almost anything he's said, cause he's probably claimed the exact opposite.

PseudoSABR
10-11-2012, 01:03 PM
I just don't get your angle.

Because you can't see past your own particular political angle. I haven't started a "Lies" tally Dems vs. Repubs - perhaps you should share yours? The notion of one lie being "more" than another is purely based off of perception. We could compare lists on that all day and it wouldn't matter. You don't see the angle because your political persuasion doesn't want you to. I'll recap anyway:

1) Suggesting that people changing their minds from a debate are shallow is truly asinine. Especially given how much both parties use advertising to change minds. If you watched the debate, paid attention, and thought about it - to me that's a great thing. Regardless of political orientation. We should be pleased people are tuning in rather than disparaging them for taking it seriously.
2) The primary process presents distorted candidates - it did for McCain, Obama, Hillary, Romney, etc. It's something we're all going to have to accept as long as it's around.
3) Distortion is a common political ploy that neither party holds a monopoly on. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.
4) Obama lost that debate at a time when a decisive win could have made his re-election pretty much a given. If lefties want to come up with excuses for that I find it pathetic. Apparently, yesterday, even Obama was tired of hearing it and came out and said the same thing.I don't disagree with 1 - 4. I simply disagree with your equivalency of the lies and the distortions. It's like you're trying to undercut the significance of Romney's switcharoo, by pointing out that all campaign ads are dishonest. Romney's makeover should disturb you and it is UNLIKE previous candidates.

TheLeviathan
10-11-2012, 05:33 PM
I don't disagree with 1 - 4. I simply disagree with your equivalency of the lies and the distortions. It's like you're trying to undercut the significance of Romney's switcharoo, by pointing out that all campaign ads are dishonest. Romney's makeover should disturb you and it is UNLIKE previous candidates.

I don't see the need to splice out who has worse lies or distortions because it a matter of opinion in most cases. As for Romney switching positions, I chalk it up to presenting himself as a character in the primaries. As a matter of principle I agree it's not tasteful, hence why he doesn't have my vote. But I do think we're going to see both parties veering more and more towards this happening with the extreme takes both bases are digging in with.

flpmagikat
10-12-2012, 08:59 AM
You're right, its pretty much the same when republicans, for instance, imply that being gay is a crime punishable by stoning to death, and when democrats imply that rich people paying more in taxes will just magically make a company more willing to hire folks. Pretty much the same thing.

TheLeviathan
10-12-2012, 04:03 PM
You're right, its pretty much the same when republicans, for instance, imply that being gay is a crime punishable by stoning to death, and when democrats imply that rich people paying more in taxes will just magically make a company more willing to hire folks. Pretty much the same thing.

Well, that was a mighty fine example of how your personal beliefs can interfere with this kind of analysis. Look, one of the reasons I'm not a republican is because of the rhetoric against homosexuals. But I'm not so vain as to believe I have the ultimate checklist of who's distortions are worse. Hell, no offense, but I take the Bush administration's lies about Iraq and the recent distortions by the Obama administration about the cause of the embassy bombing as MUCH worse distortions. But that's just me, I won't hold anyone else to that because that's my own personal opinion.