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View Full Version : Article: Pedro Florimon In Line To Be Opening Day Starter



Cody Christie
09-17-2012, 11:30 AM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?1041-Pedro-Florimon-lining-up-to-be-Opening-Day-starter

h2oface
09-17-2012, 12:32 PM
just a couple of games ago against the sox, he boots one early (didn't get scored an error) and then late middle of game he misses and deflects into the outfield with a runner on second, and then starts jogging half-a$$ed after it until he realizes that the left fielder is not going to get to the ball before him, and finally starts trying again......... but all too late. that was just lazy. if you project out his errors to number of games and compare his average at the plate and the fielding stats to dozier..... you will find that they are not as good as brian. but onward with the florimon love if you like. he is a mediocre space filler in my book.

USAFChief
09-17-2012, 12:37 PM
Florimon as the starter in 2013 will last through mid May at best. He's not even a decent AAAA player.

Nick Nelson
09-17-2012, 12:42 PM
The shortstop carousel continues.

This organization's inability to identify even serviceable options at one the most important positions on the field is mind-blowing.

wavedog
09-17-2012, 01:00 PM
Agreed - if he is our starting shortstop next year - shame on the front office. Florimon is too inconsistent on defense - he'll make the great play but there are too many errors. I will say on the positive side, he is not totally horrible on offense and he has some speed and real good arm. But if we have someone who can't field - they should proably be hitting better than .240. I don't get to see many Twins games but those I have watched it seems like we sure misplay more than our share of infield balls. Dozier and Plouffe's meltdowns in Texas and Floriman's error in the 9th this Saturday on plays at key times in the game.

Boom Boom
09-17-2012, 01:01 PM
Gardy must be seeing something I'm not, because I can tell Florimon has the range and the arm to play shortstop but I'm still concerned about his hands and his concentration. His bat has been as advertised.

I think I'd rather have Jamey Carroll as the regular shortstop.

Oxtung
09-17-2012, 01:11 PM
I think I'd rather have Jamey Carroll as the regular shortstop.

Remember that if Carroll gets 401 PA's next season he has a PLAYER option for 2014 when he will be 40 years old. Would you still rather have Carroll?

Boom Boom
09-17-2012, 01:21 PM
I think I'd rather have Jamey Carroll as the regular shortstop.

Remember that if Carroll gets 401 PA's next season he has a PLAYER option for 2014 when he will be 40 years old. Would you still rather have Carroll?

Yes. If I'm the Twins I'm not thinking about $2 million for Carroll in 2014, I'm trying to put my best players out there.

I really don't want Carroll there either, but I'd rather give him 401 PAs next year than give Florimon 401 PAs, option or not.

BTW, I think Carroll's going to eclipse 401 PAs next season regardless.

Riverbrian
09-17-2012, 01:27 PM
I think I'd rather have Jamey Carroll as the regular shortstop.

Remember that if Carroll gets 401 PA's next season he has a PLAYER option for 2014 when he will be 40 years old. Would you still rather have Carroll?

Yes. If I'm the Twins I'm not thinking about $2 million for Carroll in 2014, I'm trying to put my best players out there.

I really don't want Carroll there either, but I'd rather give him 401 PAs next year than give Florimon 401 PAs, option or not.

If Florimon gets 401 at bats next year... It will mean that he got better at some things and is doing a job. Therefore no problem... If he continues to struggle... He won't see 401 at bats in 2013.

If Carroll gets 401 at bats next year... It will mean that Florimon and Escobar and Dozier or a new MI didnt get the job done and we needed Carroll to hold down the fort.

Im hoping Carroll doesn't get 401 at bats for that reason.

Boom Boom
09-17-2012, 01:31 PM
I think I'd rather have Jamey Carroll as the regular shortstop.

Remember that if Carroll gets 401 PA's next season he has a PLAYER option for 2014 when he will be 40 years old. Would you still rather have Carroll?

Yes. If I'm the Twins I'm not thinking about $2 million for Carroll in 2014, I'm trying to put my best players out there.

I really don't want Carroll there either, but I'd rather give him 401 PAs next year than give Florimon 401 PAs, option or not.

If Florimon gets 401 at bats next year... It will mean that he got better at some things and is doing a job. Therefore no problem... If he continues to struggle... He won't see 401 at bats in 2013.

If Carroll gets 401 at bats next year... It will mean that Florimon and Escobar and Dozier or a new MI didnt get the job done and we needed Carroll to hold down the fort.

Im hoping Carroll doesn't get 401 at bats for that reason.

There you go. Are you confident that the Twins will have all of 2B, shortstop, and 3B locked down for an entire season next year? It hasn't happened recently. And look at the guys you named - I'd even add Plouffe to the list - how many do you think will be able to stick without needing to be replaced?

Like I said before, it looks to me like Carroll will get enough PAs anyway.

Riverbrian
09-17-2012, 01:59 PM
I think I'd rather have Jamey Carroll as the regular shortstop.

Remember that if Carroll gets 401 PA's next season he has a PLAYER option for 2014 when he will be 40 years old. Would you still rather have Carroll?

Yes. If I'm the Twins I'm not thinking about $2 million for Carroll in 2014, I'm trying to put my best players out there.

I really don't want Carroll there either, but I'd rather give him 401 PAs next year than give Florimon 401 PAs, option or not.

If Florimon gets 401 at bats next year... It will mean that he got better at some things and is doing a job. Therefore no problem... If he continues to struggle... He won't see 401 at bats in 2013.

If Carroll gets 401 at bats next year... It will mean that Florimon and Escobar and Dozier or a new MI didnt get the job done and we needed Carroll to hold down the fort.

Im hoping Carroll doesn't get 401 at bats for that reason.

There you go. Are you confident that the Twins will have all of 2B, shortstop, and 3B locked down for an entire season next year? It hasn't happened recently. And look at the guys you named - I'd even add Plouffe to the list - how many do you think will be able to stick without needing to be replaced?

Like I said before, it looks to me like Carroll will get enough PAs anyway.

I am not confident at all. I think Plouffe is the guy at third and I dont believe the Twins will be looking for a 3B. The hot streak he had this year was stunning. Once you display a streak like that... the Twins would be foolish to not keep him in place in case he does it again. Go ahead and write Plouffes name down and etch it in stone.

SS and 2B are huge question marks and so is the overall depth. The Twins have multiple holes to plug and itll be hard tp plug them all... I don't expect a big hitting SS or 2b to show up.

Im not going to worry about .240 or .210 at the plate. The difference will mean very little. I'm gonna try and be reasonable and say simply... Give me someone who can gobble up the routine stuff and make the near impossible play every once in awhile. Florimon looks like he could be that guy but he has to nail down the routine stuff or he won't be given the chance to make the big play. He will lose the job to Escobar or Dozier or Carroll.

Drew is not the answer. Please God no... Pitching is the priority so let's surround those pitchers with players who can get the ball up the middle. Florimon has done nothing to prove he is the long term answer so far... He's just shown flashes of ability that suggest he could be at the very least... A guy who will support the pitching and the pitching will need all the support it can get.

Its all about opportunity and Florimon is getting his right now. It's up to him to grab it. He may not. Let's see... Too soon to say right now.

Oxtung
09-17-2012, 03:51 PM
I think I'd rather have Jamey Carroll as the regular shortstop.

Remember that if Carroll gets 401 PA's next season he has a PLAYER option for 2014 when he will be 40 years old. Would you still rather have Carroll?

Yes. If I'm the Twins I'm not thinking about $2 million for Carroll in 2014, I'm trying to put my best players out there.

I really don't want Carroll there either, but I'd rather give him 401 PAs next year than give Florimon 401 PAs, option or not.

BTW, I think Carroll's going to eclipse 401 PAs next season regardless.

Fair enough. I guess I agree that Carroll is going to end up with the 401 PAs next season. There are too many holes to be fixed in 1 offseason and I think the Twins should target the rotation as priority #1. The player option on Carroll is just something that I think many people forget about and something that we should all keep in mind. It's essentially like signing Carroll to a 2 year deal this offseason if the Twins don't find more depth up the middle.

clutterheart
09-17-2012, 04:54 PM
I was.about to go check the 2013 FA SS and give a nice response with outside the org options. Then I remembered which team i follow.

Shane Wahl
09-17-2012, 04:54 PM
They didn't give Dozier a fair chance, actually. Players should have to demonstrate success at AAA before be thrown into a position for that long while continuing to struggle. The Twins were BIZARRE with him this year.

Florimon might be fine, but Gardenhire's comments about him are obviously ridiculous.

boney
09-17-2012, 05:34 PM
They didn't give Dozier a fair chance, actually.


absolutely agree

Jack Torse
09-17-2012, 05:59 PM
Dozier's not much better or worse in the grand scheme of things. Thier issues at shortstop is only the tip of the iceberg. Starting pitching is so bad that it's got fans "excited" about guys like Sam Deduno. It's part of a larger issue that the Twins have their stadium and are more interested in turning dimes than winning. Business as usual.

Monkeypaws
09-17-2012, 06:11 PM
The shortstop carousel continues.

This organization's inability to identify even serviceable options at one the most important positions on the field is mind-blowing.

Agreed - Apart from Zoilo, Gagne, and Smalley, this is the norm for the Twins at SS.

Lesser Dali
09-17-2012, 06:28 PM
I see that a few people think Brian Dozier received the short end of the stick this season with his opportunity. The reality is that he did not play very well. I can assure everyone that we have not seen the last of Dozier. I envision him getting a fair shake next season. My guess is that he is the opening day second baseman.

Shortstop is another question all together. As this organization stands now there is no long term answer on our 40 man roster or in the organization. If the Twins want a better than stop gap shortstop, they will either have to acquire a shortstop from another organization or wait a number of years until they can develop one.

The Twins had a somewhat affordable slick fielding shortstop two seasons ago who could also swing the stick a bit. They exchanged him for less than nothing and made some very erroneous decisions regarding the shortstop position in the 2010 off season. The Twins organization made this bed. Unfortunately, we all have to sleep in it.

On the sunny side of things (not really), we are not the first organization to screw things up and won't be the last. 2011, 2012 and probably beyond is our turn to fester in the MLB landfill.

Thrylos
09-17-2012, 06:36 PM
Talking about who is going to be the starting shortstop in 2013 right now, is like trying to pick paint color for your living room while there is a hole in your roof...

Low priority. Unless this team upgrades the rotation in 2013 it will not matter who the SS will be, so it might as well be anyone.

Badsmerf
09-17-2012, 09:42 PM
Talking about who is going to be the starting shortstop in 2013 right now, is like trying to pick paint color for your living room while there is a hole in your roof...

Low priority. Unless this team upgrades the rotation in 2013 it will not matter who the SS will be, so it might as well be anyone.
Disagree. SS is an important position, one that makes a big defensive impact. I can handle amazing fielding SS if they can hit even a little, draw some walks, and maybe steal some bases. Florimon does none of that, and isn't even a very good fielder. I seriously don't get the love for this guy. Yes he is smooth and makes some nice plays, but how can the same guy that ripped Plouffe for inconsistency praise someone that has been just as bad? Plus, Florimon might not even hit over .200. Penciling him in for SS next year would be a terrible mistake and almost guarantee futility.

TheLeviathan
09-17-2012, 09:52 PM
Florimon has not been very impressive defensively - the tools are there but the execution has not been.

That said....on what is this insanity about Dozier not getting a fair shot based on? Hell, the guy basically had a scholarship for about a month and a half before he was finally demoted.

acrozelle
09-17-2012, 09:59 PM
Who else is excited for the worst hitting middle infield in the league next season?

Shane Wahl
09-17-2012, 11:37 PM
Florimon has not been very impressive defensively - the tools are there but the execution has not been.

That said....on what is this insanity about Dozier not getting a fair shot based on? Hell, the guy basically had a scholarship for about a month and a half before he was finally demoted.

Sometimes being forced to play over your head means not getting a fair shot. He was just in A and AA ball last year! He needed more time to get it together in Rochester. He should have gotten 250+ plate appearances before any promotion. Failing that, he certainly should have been sent back down much earlier in order to get back on track. And THEN he should have been playing 2B in Rochester, then called up and gotten time at 2B for the Twins.

Shane Wahl
09-17-2012, 11:39 PM
Question: does anyone else find Gardy's like of Jekyl and Hyde great/bad Florimon over the steady non-flashy consistency of Jamey Carroll a bit puzzling? What was the Castro/Bartlett nonsense about back in the day (I repressed that memory)?

snepp
09-18-2012, 12:01 AM
Question: does anyone else find Gardy's like of Jekyl and Hyde great/bad Florimon over the steady non-flashy consistency of Jamey Carroll a bit puzzling? What was the Castro/Bartlett nonsense about back in the day (I repressed that memory)?

Castro VP > Carroll VP




(VP = veteran presence)

phalvorson
09-18-2012, 03:50 PM
I think I'd rather have Jamey Carroll as the regular shortstop.

Remember that if Carroll gets 401 PA's next season he has a PLAYER option for 2014 when he will be 40 years old. Would you still rather have Carroll?

Yes. If I'm the Twins I'm not thinking about $2 million for Carroll in 2014, I'm trying to put my best players out there.

I really don't want Carroll there either, but I'd rather give him 401 PAs next year than give Florimon 401 PAs, option or not.

If Florimon gets 401 at bats next year... It will mean that he got better at some things and is doing a job. Therefore no problem... If he continues to struggle... He won't see 401 at bats in 2013.

If Carroll gets 401 at bats next year... It will mean that Florimon and Escobar and Dozier or a new MI didnt get the job done and we needed Carroll to hold down the fort.

Im hoping Carroll doesn't get 401 at bats for that reason.

There you go. Are you confident that the Twins will have all of 2B, shortstop, and 3B locked down for an entire season next year? It hasn't happened recently. And look at the guys you named - I'd even add Plouffe to the list - how many do you think will be able to stick without needing to be replaced?

Like I said before, it looks to me like Carroll will get enough PAs anyway.

I am not confident at all. I think Plouffe is the guy at third and I dont believe the Twins will be looking for a 3B. The hot streak he had this year was stunning. Once you display a streak like that... the Twins would be foolish to not keep him in place in case he does it again. Go ahead and write Plouffes name down and etch it in stone.

SS and 2B are huge question marks and so is the overall depth. The Twins have multiple holes to plug and itll be hard tp plug them all... I don't expect a big hitting SS or 2b to show up.

Im not going to worry about .240 or .210 at the plate. The difference will mean very little. I'm gonna try and be reasonable and say simply... Give me someone who can gobble up the routine stuff and make the near impossible play every once in awhile. Florimon looks like he could be that guy but he has to nail down the routine stuff or he won't be given the chance to make the big play. He will lose the job to Escobar or Dozier or Carroll.

Drew is not the answer. Please God no... Pitching is the priority so let's surround those pitchers with players who can get the ball up the middle. Florimon has done nothing to prove he is the long term answer so far... He's just shown flashes of ability that suggest he could be at the very least... A guy who will support the pitching and the pitching will need all the support it can get.

Its all about opportunity and Florimon is getting his right now. It's up to him to grab it. He may not. Let's see... Too soon to say right now.

I'm specifically replying to this quote: "Im not going to worry about .240 or .210 at the plate. The difference will mean very little. I'm gonna try and be reasonable and say simply... Give me someone who can gobble up the routine stuff and make the near impossible play every once in awhile."

Did you just EXACTLY describe Nick Punto, who everyone wanted gone for years? He hit below Mendoza, handled the routine plays, and occasionally made the impossible. Those are some pretty low expectations for a new Twins starting SS, huh?

snepp
09-18-2012, 04:00 PM
I know I'm looking forward to another season of a .600 OPS middle infield. Which, disgusting as it may sound, would be an improvement. They've only managed a .589 OPS this season.


That's right, .589, in nearly 1,200 plate appearances. And yet there are people that don't think the middle infield requires attention?

Shane Wahl
09-18-2012, 04:19 PM
I know I'm looking forward to another season of a .600 OPS middle infield. Which, disgusting as it may sound, would be an improvement. They've only managed a .589 OPS this season.


That's right, .589, in nearly 1,200 plate appearances. And yet there are people that don't think the middle infield requires attention?

Improve by subtraction (Casilla) and improvement (Dozier, Florimon). Also, are you sure that number is correct? Carroll is at .637, Florimon .623, Dozier finished .603 . . . then Casilla .572 (Escobar, Hughes, and Nishioka are lower, but with very few PAs). Still bad, but not quite that bad.

snepp
09-18-2012, 04:34 PM
I didn't do the math, just pulled up the BRef splits.

I've still got hope for Dozier at 2nd given that Gardy has apparently written him off at short.

Florimon is going to be 26 with a .670 minor league OPS, how much improvement is there to be had there? I'd be shocked if he can manage to do better than a low .600 OPS in his career.

Shane Wahl
09-18-2012, 04:40 PM
I didn't do the math, just pulled up the BRef splits.

I've still got hope for Dozier at 2nd given that Gardy has apparently written him off at short.

Florimon is going to be 26 with a .670 minor league OPS, how much improvement is there to be had there? I'd be shocked if he can manage to do better than a low .600 OPS in his career.

I like the idea of Dozier at 2B. Good thing they promoted him in September to do that . . .

Florimon might be a .650 OPS guy, and I don't expect much more. Let's say that Florimon, Dozier, and Carroll collectively produce a .650 OPS next year. Is that good enough improvement? I just REALLY don't trust the Twins' evaluation of FA middle infielders, so I don't know what they are going to do other than hope for Danny Santana and Levi Michael to have breakout seasons at AA.

LaBombo
09-18-2012, 04:41 PM
Competent 39 year old utility player or fringe 26 year old utility player as your starting shortstop next season? That's a real nail-biter for a franchise that will be fighting to avoid 90 losses for a third consecutive season next year.

It seems obvious that Florimon and Dozier or somebody else with even a faint whiff of potential should be starting in next year's middle infield. But maybe I'm missing something.

Without disputing that Carroll would probably represent at least a small improvement over those two at short, let me ask the Carroll backers this.

Why do you care?

Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?

Or is it that you're reeeeeeally worried that they'll lose 90 again instead of just 88?

TheLeviathan
09-18-2012, 06:14 PM
Sometimes being forced to play over your head means not getting a fair shot. He was just in A and AA ball last year! He needed more time to get it together in Rochester. He should have gotten 250+ plate appearances before any promotion. Failing that, he certainly should have been sent back down much earlier in order to get back on track. And THEN he should have been playing 2B in Rochester, then called up and gotten time at 2B for the Twins.

I wouldn't call that not getting a fair shot - I'd call that rushing him. Which I wouldn't disagree with. Hell, I think he got TOO MUCH of a shot.

Brock Beauchamp
09-18-2012, 06:50 PM
Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?

While I understand your sentiment, the Twins aren't nearly that bad off. Parmelee is already in Minnesota. Gibson, Hicks, and Arcia will probably make appearances in 2013. And where has Ryan said he's not going to make changes?

ScottyB
09-18-2012, 10:36 PM
The shortstop carousel continues.

This organization's inability to identify even serviceable options at one the most important positions on the field is mind-blowing.

This goes back to the beginning of the draft. In their entire history, Dozier's 84 starts at short rank him as 3rd on the list of most starts for the Twins by a Twins' drafted shortstop - 1) Pat Meares 742 games; 2) Danny Thompson 630 games and Dozier's 84 - how embarassing. Most other drafted shortstops have switched positions (ie Knoblauch and Cuddyer), or been utility guys.

Shane Wahl
09-19-2012, 12:11 AM
Sometimes being forced to play over your head means not getting a fair shot. He was just in A and AA ball last year! He needed more time to get it together in Rochester. He should have gotten 250+ plate appearances before any promotion. Failing that, he certainly should have been sent back down much earlier in order to get back on track. And THEN he should have been playing 2B in Rochester, then called up and gotten time at 2B for the Twins.

I wouldn't call that not getting a fair shot - I'd call that rushing him. Which I wouldn't disagree with. Hell, I think he got TOO MUCH of a shot.

Well, OK. I don't think it is "fair" to throw someone in over his head and keep him over his head for a few months and then pass judgement without giving him a shot when the Rochester season is over (as a second baseman).

Riverbrian
09-19-2012, 12:22 AM
[/QUOTE]

I'm specifically replying to this quote: "Im not going to worry about .240 or .210 at the plate. The difference will mean very little. I'm gonna try and be reasonable and say simply... Give me someone who can gobble up the routine stuff and make the near impossible play every once in awhile."

Did you just EXACTLY describe Nick Punto, who everyone wanted gone for years? He hit below Mendoza, handled the routine plays, and occasionally made the impossible. Those are some pretty low expectations for a new Twins starting SS, huh?[/QUOTE]

Ok... If the SS is Punto like... He's Punto like... But what I'm saying is... Good luck finding a SS who can hit in the off season... It maybe a case where SS Choice A hits .240 and SS choice B hits .210... .240 is better... I understand this... But... I'm not going to worry about an extra hit every 33 at bats from Player A... I'm not going to bring up OPS because Dozier seems like the only guy who can do the extra base thing... Kinda... And the FA choices are slim and underwhelming and will probably be competed for and therefore expensive.

In lieu of a real honest to goodness hitting Shortstop... I'll start the .210 guy if he plays like Punto in the field. Because that guy will go a long way to Helping us... And I mean... Helping us build a pitching staff.

We'd all love to be stacked like the Rangers... It isn't realistic right now. We are going to be a team with holes like almost every team in the league and I think you can survive the offensive SS hole we are almost sure to have... if... he can pick it and get it... in support of the pitching staff.

Priorities... We need to improve our pitching. We won't be able to trade for Andrus... If we do... That means that we didn't trade the package Andrus would require for Pitching.

I'm not condoning being sub par anywhere. I'm saying... Tulo ain't coming to town. Our pitching is more important and in even worse shape than MI... Fix the pitching as quickly as possible and a defensive SS will help the pitching fixing that is needed... By the time the Pitching is functional... Maybe a SS who can push the ball around the park and out of the park will be an option.

Im not going to waste my time hoping, wishing or expecting a big hitter at the 6 position in 2013... I'm going to waste my time hoping and wishing for Pitching and the structure to help the pitching succeed.

Wolfy
09-19-2012, 07:19 AM
How will Carroll not get 400 PA next year if the Twins plan on moving on with Plouffe, Florimon, and possibly Dozier as the middle/LS infield? That is a lead pipe cinch unless he gets hurt.

Dozier got a real fair shot and looked like the career minor leaguer he is destined to be. Plouffe is not the answer. He isn't any more accomplished than Dozier except he got hot for a month and hit some homers. Florimon is interesting. He looks to have the best package of skills in the organization. (of the players that are ML ready)

I don't disagree with Florimon having the inside track at SS at this point, unless some other option drops into the team's lap this off season.

Brock Beauchamp
09-19-2012, 07:25 AM
I'm not convinced that having the meager yet steady 2014 Carroll for $2m is the worst thing in the world. He could be a steadying hand for a young infield.

nokomismod
09-19-2012, 08:43 AM
Competent 39 year old utility player or fringe 26 year old utility player as your starting shortstop next season? That's a real nail-biter for a franchise that will be fighting to avoid 90 losses for a third consecutive season next year.

It seems obvious that Florimon and Dozier or somebody else with even a faint whiff of potential should be starting in next year's middle infield. But maybe I'm missing something.

Without disputing that Carroll would probably represent at least a small improvement over those two at short, let me ask the Carroll backers this.

Why do you care?

Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?

Or is it that you're reeeeeeally worried that they'll lose 90 again instead of just 88?
Unless Terry Ryan is playing poker when he said the solution to the lack of starting pitching is not to sign big free agents, then you are absolutely right. Use Carrol as the utility guy and find out if Escobar, Florimon, Plouffe, and Dozier can play.

Boom Boom
09-19-2012, 08:58 AM
Competent 39 year old utility player or fringe 26 year old utility player as your starting shortstop next season? That's a real nail-biter for a franchise that will be fighting to avoid 90 losses for a third consecutive season next year.

It seems obvious that Florimon and Dozier or somebody else with even a faint whiff of potential should be starting in next year's middle infield. But maybe I'm missing something.

Without disputing that Carroll would probably represent at least a small improvement over those two at short, let me ask the Carroll backers this.

Why do you care?

Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?

Or is it that you're reeeeeeally worried that they'll lose 90 again instead of just 88?

I'm going to assume you're referring to me since I was the one who first said I'd rather have Carroll at short than Florimon.

For one thing, I'm not a Carroll backer. I don't like him as a starter. He's a capable backup. But I like 39-year old Carroll better than 26-year old Florimon.

What I'd really like is for the Twins to find somebody outside their organization to play shortstop because I don't believe the Twins shortstop of the future is both a.) in the Twins system and b.) close enough to contribute in 2013.

My point was I've already seen enough of Florimon to know he's not the guy.

LaBombo
09-19-2012, 04:39 PM
Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?

While I understand your sentiment, the Twins aren't nearly that bad off. Parmelee is already in Minnesota. Gibson, Hicks, and Arcia will probably make appearances in 2013. And where has Ryan said he's not going to make changes?

Ryan has stated repeatedly that the Twins will not be major players in free agency, even going so far as to make the laughable, empirically false assertion that the 2013 free agent pitcher crop is "thin". And he's also insisted there will be no major turnover in off-field personnel. Sounds like no significant changes to me.

And as I said, no prospects are ready to contribute. Whether Arcia or Hicks get a cup of September joe has nothing to do with helping the Twins win in 2013. Gibson may surprise, but he's been dreadful in his first two starts at AAA.

Oh, almost forgot,

Player A Age 23 A+/AA 610 PA's, .287/.366/.436
Age 24 AAA 282 PA's, .338/.457/.645
Age 24 MLB 175 PA's .239/.303/.396

Player B Age 22 AA/AAA 559 PA's .284/.370/.448
Age 23 AAA 174 PA's .385/.477/.629
Age 24 MLB 143 PA's .260/.322/.374

If you're expecting a big boost from a full season of Player A, Chris Parmalee, then have a big steamy helping of Player B, David McCarty. Yes, there are differences, and reasons to be optimistic about Parmalee in the long term, but a half season of unprecedented AAA hitting isn't one of them. In other words, I didn't forget to mention Parm as a prospect ready to make a major contribution in 2013. I just don't see it happening.

Brock Beauchamp
09-19-2012, 05:31 PM
Ryan has stated repeatedly that the Twins will not be major players in free agency, even going so far as to make the laughable, empirically false assertion that the 2013 free agent pitcher crop is "thin". And he's also insisted there will be no major turnover in off-field personnel. Sounds like no significant changes to me.

We have no idea what Ryan actually said in that interview. The only word in quotation was "thin", which was made in reference to elite pitching. To make any assertion about JR's beliefs requires several turns at the Jump To Conclusions mat.


And as I said, no prospects are ready to contribute. Whether Arcia or Hicks get a cup of September joe has nothing to do with helping the Twins win in 2013. Gibson may surprise, but he's been dreadful in his first two starts at AAA.

Oh, almost forgot,

Player A Age 23 A+/AA 610 PA's, .287/.366/.436
Age 24 AAA 282 PA's, .338/.457/.645
Age 24 MLB 175 PA's .239/.303/.396

Player B Age 22 AA/AAA 559 PA's .284/.370/.448
Age 23 AAA 174 PA's .385/.477/.629
Age 24 MLB 143 PA's .260/.322/.374

If you're expecting a big boost from a full season of Player A, Chris Parmalee, then have a big steamy helping of Player B, David McCarty. Yes, there are differences, and reasons to be optimistic about Parmalee in the long term, but a half season of unprecedented AAA hitting isn't one of them. In other words, I didn't forget to mention Parm as a prospect ready to make a major contribution in 2013. I just don't see it happening.

Gibson made two starts in AAA. Two. He jumped from GCL to Fort Myers to Rochester after only a handful of starts. I put absolutely zero stock in that performance, as he was still in the rehab stage. A full offseason and Spring Training will show what he's capable of doing, not ~10 rehab starts in the minors.

Look at that first slash stat of McCarty's line. Yeah, that batting average of nearly .400 was sustainable, especially considering that it was a full .101 higher than anything he had previously posted during any significant stretch of MiLB hitting. He also did it over a measly 175 PAs in the hitter-happy-haven PCL (remember those days?). To top that off, McCarty went and posted six consecutive sub-.700 OPS seasons in the major leagues. Parmelee, on the other hand, posted a 1.100 OPS in September last year and is posting a .919 OPS this September. In the last 14 months, if Parmelee plays, he hits. That's all there is to it. Despite his inconsistent play and general jerking around by the front office and Gardy, he has still managed a career OPS over .800 in ~250 PAs. And while people tend to discount his MiLB numbers, they were remarkably solid. He posted an OPS of .800 or better in every season except two, his first full season in Beloit (which he followed with a .881 OPS the next season) and one in New Britain. He's been a very consistent hitter who never garnered much attention because of his lack of power (which is no longer a problem) and his position, first base.

In short, the McCarty comp carries no weight.

And there's no reason to think that neither Hicks nor Arcia will receive anything more than a September call-up in 2013. Both should start the season in AAA and if one of them is tearing the cover off the ball, we'll see him before the All-Star break.

Nick Nelson
09-19-2012, 07:16 PM
Gibson made two starts in AAA. Two. He jumped from GCL to Fort Myers to Rochester after only a handful of starts. I put absolutely zero stock in that performance, as he was still in the rehab stage. A full offseason and Spring Training will show what he's capable of doing, not ~10 rehab starts in the minors.
Not to mention he had a 10/1 K/BB ratio over 6.2 IP in those two Triple-A starts, which is... pretty good. Overall, Gibson put up a 4.13 ERA, 1.13 WHIP and 33/6 K/BB in 28 innings on his rehab stint. Not sure how that can be viewed as discouraging for a guy less than 12 months removed from TJ surgery.

TheLeviathan
09-19-2012, 08:15 PM
Not sure how that can be viewed as discouraging for a guy less than 12 months removed from TJ surgery.

That he's pitching at all should be encouraging, much less the results. We just can't count on him for next year, but he's an intriguing "bonus" possibility.

LaBombo
09-19-2012, 08:40 PM
Gibson made two starts in AAA. Two. He jumped from GCL to Fort Myers to Rochester after only a handful of starts. I put absolutely zero stock in that performance, as he was still in the rehab stage. A full offseason and Spring Training will show what he's capable of doing, not ~10 rehab starts in the minors.
Not to mention he had a 10/1 K/BB ratio over 6.2 IP in those two Triple-A starts, which is... pretty good. Overall, Gibson put up a 4.13 ERA, 1.13 WHIP and 33/6 K/BB in 28 innings on his rehab stint. Not sure how that can be viewed as discouraging for a guy less than 12 months removed from TJ surgery.

Who said anything about Gibson's rehab being discouraging? I said three things about Gibson: two bad starts in AAA, could surprise people next year (the good kind), and as of right now, cannot be counted on to hold down a rotation spot (not 5th, though I didn't state that) on a Twins team that would hope to contend in 2013.

I'm assuming that if you disagree with any of those points, it's the third. Gibson's progressed faster than I expected, but claiming certainty that he'll be a key contributor to a contending 2013 Twins team is beyond absurd in my opinion.

snepp
09-19-2012, 08:49 PM
I took it the same way they did. You stated that he was "dreadful" in AAA as though those two starts possessed any meaningful significance.

Brock Beauchamp
09-19-2012, 08:51 PM
I'm assuming that if you disagree with any of those points, it's the third. Gibson's progressed faster than I expected, but claiming certainty that he'll be a key contributor to a contending 2013 Twins team is beyond absurd in my opinion.

But that's not the argument, is it? You claimed "no impact prospects ready to contribute". By that reasoning, it's impossible for any prospect "to be ready to contribute" until they've actually done so.

Gibson should be ready to contribute by the All-Star break if his rehab goes as expected. Parmelee is already contributing. Arcia and Hicks have a good shot at contributing. No one is claiming certainty about anything, we're simply refuting your statement that "no impact prospects are ready to contribute in the majors next season". There are several who should contribute at some point in the season.

Thegrin
09-19-2012, 08:53 PM
After tonight's game, I am done with Florimon. If we have him as SS next year, the pitchers will be afraid that the ball will be hit at Florimon. The perfect IF = Florimon SS. Nishioka 2B. makes me want to vomit at the thought.

LaBombo
09-19-2012, 10:19 PM
I took it the same way they did. You stated that he was "dreadful" in AAA as though those two starts possessed any meaningful significance.

Then you missed the point the same way they did. Guess I'm not doing very well at getting that point across.

If you think Gibson's shown as of today that he's ready to hold down a rotation spot on a contender, I disagree. Otherwise, your post makes absolutely no sense in the context of what I've been saying. My points were, going back to my first in this thread, that A) the Twins will not be contenders next year. B) Therefore, it couldn't hurt to see if Florimon can contribute (I'm thinking utility at best) by playing him ahead of Carroll, who will be 40 when I think the Twins might be relevant again. Which of those two points do you disagree with?

If you disagree with my reasons why the Twins won't contend, that's fine. But at no point have I ever opined that any of the players in question would not play for, or even contribute to, the Twins in 2013. I just said that I don't think that anyone is ready now to contribute to a contender. Brock agrees with me about everyone about Parmelee, and he's probably wrong about him, unfortunately.

CDog
09-19-2012, 11:29 PM
Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?

While I understand your sentiment, the Twins aren't nearly that bad off. Parmelee is already in Minnesota. Gibson, Hicks, and Arcia will probably make appearances in 2013. And where has Ryan said he's not going to make changes?

Ryan has stated that the Twins will [explore every avenue of improving the team, including] free agency... Sounds like [he's willing to make] changes to me.



Accurated up your post with the bold in brackets.

old nurse
09-20-2012, 12:21 AM
With thirteen more games to go the Twins will have a better idea of what Floriman can can do. The stats guys here will tell you about his fielding at the end of the season. 13 games will give you a hint on offense what he can do. I would bet by seasons end he will prove himself to be a backup. Shortstop for the Twins is like being a drummer for Spinal Tap.

Oxtung
09-20-2012, 01:40 AM
Ryan has stated repeatedly that the Twins will not be major players in free agency, even going so far as to make the laughable, empirically false assertion that the 2013 free agent pitcher crop is "thin". And he's also insisted there will be no major turnover in off-field personnel. Sounds like no significant changes to me.

We have no idea what Ryan actually said in that interview. The only word in quotation was "thin", which was made in reference to elite pitching. To make any assertion about JR's beliefs requires several turns at the Jump To Conclusions mat.

Thanks for carrying that torch RP!!

Brock Beauchamp
09-20-2012, 06:27 AM
Ryan has stated repeatedly that the Twins will not be major players in free agency, even going so far as to make the laughable, empirically false assertion that the 2013 free agent pitcher crop is "thin". And he's also insisted there will be no major turnover in off-field personnel. Sounds like no significant changes to me.

We have no idea what Ryan actually said in that interview. The only word in quotation was "thin", which was made in reference to elite pitching. To make any assertion about JR's beliefs requires several turns at the Jump To Conclusions mat.

Thanks for carrying that torch RP!!

Heh, no problem. I really didn't like the quote and what it meant on the surface but given the context, there's little to be gathered from the vague way it was referenced in the article. We should all hope that it was terribly misleading.

Wolfy
09-20-2012, 06:32 AM
That was a pretty rough game for Florsy. He can't have a whole lot more of those otherwise he's going to have an empty bandwagon.

Dilligaf69
09-20-2012, 11:37 AM
So barring any trades for an upgrade to our "middling" infield it could be Pedro at SS and Dozier at 2B where he'll most certainly be better defensively...assuming of course he gets time there in winter ball and in ST. Would that decision affect the Twins decision to try and trade Morneau..which btw I don't think is happening, but my point being with two relatively light hitting IF at SS and 2B and Plouffes inconsistecy can they afford to trade Justin??? You don't know what Parm is gonna do over a full season and they can't really afford sub par production at all 4 infield spots. So IMO you keep Justin, trade Span put Parm in RF and Revere in CF which is the likely scenario.

Dilligaf69
09-20-2012, 11:41 AM
I'm assuming that if you disagree with any of those points, it's the third. Gibson's progressed faster than I expected, but claiming certainty that he'll be a key contributor to a contending 2013 Twins team is beyond absurd in my opinion.

But that's not the argument, is it? You claimed "no impact prospects ready to contribute". By that reasoning, it's impossible for any prospect "to be ready to contribute" until they've actually done so.

Gibson should be ready to contribute by the All-Star break if his rehab goes as expected. Parmelee is already contributing. Arcia and Hicks have a good shot at contributing. No one is claiming certainty about anything, we're simply refuting your statement that "no impact prospects are ready to contribute in the majors next season". There are several who should contribute at some point in the season.


I'd be suprised if he's not pitching with the big club by early June at the latest.

LaBombo
09-20-2012, 03:21 PM
I'm assuming that if you disagree with any of those points, it's the third. Gibson's progressed faster than I expected, but claiming certainty that he'll be a key contributor to a contending 2013 Twins team is beyond absurd in my opinion.

But that's not the argument, is it? You claimed "no impact prospects ready to contribute". By that reasoning, it's impossible for any prospect "to be ready to contribute" until they've actually done so.

Gibson should be ready to contribute by the All-Star break if his rehab goes as expected. Parmelee is already contributing. Arcia and Hicks have a good shot at contributing. No one is claiming certainty about anything, we're simply refuting your statement that "no impact prospects are ready to contribute in the majors next season". There are several who should contribute at some point in the season.


I'd be suprised if he's not pitching with the big club by early June at the latest.

So would I. But he's pitched a grand total of 275 innings of professional baseball, most of it below AAA, and is early in the rehab process. Beauchamp offered Gibson as an example of a guy who can be counted on now to be ready to help the Twins contend on opening day. I see little evidence of that.

Gibson may actually make the team with a strong spring based on need alone, unless the FO decides he starts in AAA no matter what. But the idea that the Twins would view themselves as contenders while simultaneously counting on Gibson, as of today, to hold down a rotation spot from day one is a big stretch. They'd be setting themselves up for another April apocalypse, especially if they fill other rotation spots with potential arsonists like Sam Deduno and his 1/1 K/BB ratio and 5.16 FIP.