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View Full Version : Difference in minor league philosiphy



greengoblinrulz
09-10-2012, 11:44 PM
2010 Draft difference in 2 same aged (2 month diff), same size, same basic collegiate competition
MN took 3 yr college player Nate Roberts in the 6th round out of High Point and assigned him to Rookie Lg ELIZ.
In 35 gms there, he had a line of .336/.444/.547 w/30r 10doubles 1triple 5hr 17rbi 29k 21bb 5/7sb. Very solid
Same draft, ARIZ took 4 yr college player Adam Eaton in the 19th round out of Miami (Ohio) and also assigned him to Rookie Lg Missoula.
In 68gms there .385/.500/.575 48runs 14doubles 4triples 7hr 37rbi 44k 35bb 20/28sb
Both excellent debuts....what do they both do next???

2011 MN sends Roberts to Low A. No problem as that is MNs way of doin things & they rarely deviate from that. Roberts battles some knee problems limiting him to 68gms .302/.443/.446 55runs 12doubles 4triples 4hr 34rbi 48k 28bb 9/13sb
ARIZ decides to challenge Eaton in High A as he's now their #30 prospect
Plays 65gms .332/.455/.492 54runs 15doubles 3triples 6hr 39rbi 41k 42bb 24/32sb.....then assigned to AA for 2nd half ...56gms .302/.409/.429 31runs 7doubles 4triples 4hr 28rbi 35k 30bb 10/16sb
After 1+ season, MN has the higher drafted player 2 levels below ARIZs...ok there is the next yr.

2012 MN has Roberts repeat Low A. Hmmm. Ok, still havin minor knee issues I guess.
76gms .299/.433/.427 60runs 18doubles 3triples 4hr 33rbi 37k 44bb 27/35sb....no promotion in season as MN decides its more important to have him play in Low A playoffs, before crowds of less than 1K nightly, than go to High A for better competition....despite their being no OFs in Ft Myers playing better than him.
Now their #12 prospect, ARIZ has Eaton also repeat AA....FOR 11GMS
.300/.450/.325 11runs 1double 3rbi 8k 6bb 6/7sb....nothing earthshattering but they stil want to challenge him.
Then up to AAA.....119gms @ hitting friendly PCL .381/.456/.539 119runs 46doubles 5triples 7HR 45rbi 76k 59bb 38/48sb
ARIZs NOT done..MLB promotion 5gms 10/25 .400/.423/.480 6runs 2doubles 3k 1bb 1/1sb

So MN takes the higher choice, he has great success but still has that player stuck in Low A for some reason.
ARIZ has taken the lower player, challenged him by promoting him quickly up level & have found out he's a MLB player.
This is only one piece of a bigger puzzle but its the reasoning on why MN has had one of the absolute worst records in baseball the past 2 yrs as this is how they veiw their minor league players/develpment..... things like playing in minor league playoffs bein more important than challenging a successful player to a new level or 2

old nurse
09-11-2012, 12:47 AM
Try some other comparison if similar players in playing in the systems actually make it to the major league. The goal is developing a major league talent. If you can find similar players that did not develop under the Twins but did in other systems you might have an argument.

iastfan112
09-11-2012, 05:06 AM
2010 Draft difference in 2 same aged (2 month diff), same size, same basic collegiate competition
MN took 3 yr college player Nate Roberts in the 6th round out of High Point and assigned him to Rookie Lg ELIZ.
In 35 gms there, he had a line of .336/.444/.547 w/30r 10doubles 1triple 5hr 17rbi 29k 21bb 5/7sb. Very solid
Same draft, ARIZ took 4 yr college player Adam Eaton in the 19th round out of Miami (Ohio) and also assigned him to Rookie Lg Missoula.
In 68gms there .385/.500/.575 48runs 14doubles 4triples 7hr 37rbi 44k 35bb 20/28sb
Both excellent debuts....what do they both do next???

2011 MN sends Roberts to Low A. No problem as that is MNs way of doin things & they rarely deviate from that. Roberts battles some knee problems limiting him to 68gms .302/.443/.446 55runs 12doubles 4triples 4hr 34rbi 48k 28bb 9/13sb
ARIZ decides to challenge Eaton in High A as he's now their #30 prospect
Plays 65gms .332/.455/.492 54runs 15doubles 3triples 6hr 39rbi 41k 42bb 24/32sb.....then assigned to AA for 2nd half ...56gms .302/.409/.429 31runs 7doubles 4triples 4hr 28rbi 35k 30bb 10/16sb
After 1+ season, MN has the higher drafted player 2 levels below ARIZs...ok there is the next yr.

2012 MN has Roberts repeat Low A. Hmmm. Ok, still havin minor knee issues I guess.
76gms .299/.433/.427 60runs 18doubles 3triples 4hr 33rbi 37k 44bb 27/35sb....no promotion in season as MN decides its more important to have him play in Low A playoffs, before crowds of less than 1K nightly, than go to High A for better competition....despite their being no OFs in Ft Myers playing better than him.
Now their #12 prospect, ARIZ has Eaton also repeat AA....FOR 11GMS
.300/.450/.325 11runs 1double 3rbi 8k 6bb 6/7sb....nothing earthshattering but they stil want to challenge him.
Then up to AAA.....119gms @ hitting friendly PCL .381/.456/.539 119runs 46doubles 5triples 7HR 45rbi 76k 59bb 38/48sb
ARIZs NOT done..MLB promotion 5gms 10/25 .400/.423/.480 6runs 2doubles 3k 1bb 1/1sb

So MN takes the higher choice, he has great success but still has that player stuck in Low A for some reason.
ARIZ has taken the lower player, challenged him by promoting him quickly up level & have found out he's a MLB player.
This is only one piece of a bigger puzzle but its the reasoning on why MN has had one of the absolute worst records in baseball the past 2 yrs as this is how they veiw their minor league players/develpment..... things like playing in minor league playoffs bein more important than challenging a successful player to a new level or 2

Congrats on proving healthy players move thru the minors faster than injured ones? Eaton has an extra 140 games in the minors, it makes sense he'll be at a higher level. Roberts didn't get promoted in 2012 because he missed most of the second half in Beloit in 2011 and then is injured to start 2012. Seems fairly prudent to not add the challenge of tougher competition on top of trying to recover from injuries. If Roberts has manages to put together a healthy, productive season, there's a good chance he'd get promoted midseason, but he hasn't done that thus far.

Mr. Ed
09-11-2012, 08:12 AM
You're fighting a losing battle in here ggoblin.

Apparently station to station baseball is also acceptable in the minors advancing guys for some.

Roberts had nothing to prove in lo-A, and now they're putting him in the AZ Fall league. Hope he doesn't flop there, because he needed to see
better competition.

Moving him up would have helped Max Kepler or Walker,who could have played lo-A ball for part of the year.

You're right, there were no FM outfielders, once Arcia was gone, that were so much better. Rams was playing some LF this year.

Again we consistently see the majority of the talent in the lower levels. Where they fizzle, only to have someone else they draft take a top spot in the org depth.

Too often.

Seth Stohs
09-11-2012, 08:26 AM
Normally I'm quick to come up with reasons that a player stays back instead of getting pushed. I think that it was great for Kepler to stay in E-Town because he was mediocre the first year there and this year he was able to thrive. As for Walker, yes, he hit a lot of home runs, but he also struckout a ton. I'm not sure pushing him to Beloit would have made a lot of sense. Danny Ortiz was moved from Beloit to Ft. Myers after about a month this year. I also think that the Twins invested enough in Danny Rams that they needed to give him a shot. I can come up with reasons for about everything. I'm even completely good with the idea of letting players play in the playoffs with the team they've been with once it's into late July or early August. To me, that's fair.

But I can't come up with one for Roberts. Once he showed he was healthy, he should have been moved up. (That was probably in about mid-June.) In my opinion. I mean to Ft. Myers... there really isn't a comparison between him and Eaton at this point because of the injuries.

Shane Wahl
09-11-2012, 08:32 AM
Players can fizzleout because they don't get promotedwhen they should. Roberts, of course, hasn't fizzled out yet and I hope they are aggressive next year. He is the kind of player who should be fine in A+ and the real test will come in AA. This is also a team that mistakenly demoted Joe Benson back to AA instead of having him work it out up where he belongs. Same for Tosoni. But, you know, Clete Thomas was too important at AAA . . .

I suspect the Fort Myers OF will be Roberts-Ortiz-Morales.

Shane Wahl
09-11-2012, 08:33 AM
Investing in Danny Rams as a catcher is one thing, as an outfielder is kind of a joke. No future for that guy.

Mr. Ed
09-11-2012, 08:52 AM
Players can fizzleout because they don't get promotedwhen they should. Roberts, of course, hasn't fizzled out yet and I hope they are aggressive next year. He is the kind of player who should be fine in A+ and the real test will come in AA. This is also a team that mistakenly demoted Joe Benson back to AA instead of having him work it out up where he belongs. Same for Tosoni. But, you know, Clete Thomas was too important at AAA . . .

I suspect the Fort Myers OF will be Roberts-Ortiz-Morales.

Morales continued to struggle this year. His time is about up as well.

Brock Beauchamp
09-11-2012, 09:00 AM
Are we really complaining about how the Twins advance hitting prospects? This organization has been churning out very good hitting prospects for over ten years now. Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, Span, Revere, Parmelee... In the wings, they have Arcia, Hicks, Rosario, Sano, and Buxton.

Hitting isn't the problem and I don't think we should be complaining about how the Twins advance their position prospects. They've done a very good job of preparing these guys for Major League pitching.

Shane Wahl
09-11-2012, 09:29 AM
Are we really complaining about how the Twins advance hitting prospects? This organization has been churning out very good hitting prospects for over ten years now. Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, Span, Revere, Parmelee... In the wings, they have Arcia, Hicks, Rosario, Sano, and Buxton.

Hitting isn't the problem and I don't think we should be complaining about how the Twins advance their position prospects. They've done a very good job of preparing these guys for Major League pitching.

Other than Revere and Parmelee (who are still mildly questionable as full-time starters, and add Plouffe), that list goes back 5 years and then 8 and then 10+.

Besides that, there still is a sense of merit for achievement and proper development guys deserving a chance, right? I don't know, I have a sense of justice that gets bothered by this kind of thing (Slama the biggest pitching example). That's not a consideration everyone is going to share.

But besides that I am not optimistic about how the Twins are going to treat Arcia and Hicks this year--I could see them "Parmeleeing" both of them for 2013 and then STILL be left with question marks for 2014. Or I could see them "Doziering" both of them and STILL be left with question marks for 2014. Consistent promotions through AAA (with at least 200 PA there) just makes sense to me.

Shane Wahl
09-11-2012, 09:30 AM
Players can fizzleout because they don't get promotedwhen they should. Roberts, of course, hasn't fizzled out yet and I hope they are aggressive next year. He is the kind of player who should be fine in A+ and the real test will come in AA. This is also a team that mistakenly demoted Joe Benson back to AA instead of having him work it out up where he belongs. Same for Tosoni. But, you know, Clete Thomas was too important at AAA . . .

I suspect the Fort Myers OF will be Roberts-Ortiz-Morales.

Morales continued to struggle this year. His time is about up as well.

Well he does have more potential than Danny Rams, but you are right. However, given that they kept ANDY LEER and Anderson Hidalgo around, who knows what they'll do.

gunnarthor
09-11-2012, 09:52 AM
Lots of things wrong with the premise of this post - the idea that one player represents the system is a bit of a reach. Eaton, I would think, fell in part because he's short but he showed that he was the better player and could stay healthy. I'm also not sure if Roberts was blocked by better OFers.

Twins have had some guys go fast through the minors - Hendriks, for example, missed all of his age 19 season and maybe had pitched 250 minor league innings under his belt before he was called up.

Alex
09-11-2012, 01:03 PM
Are we really complaining about how the Twins advance hitting prospects? This organization has been churning out very good hitting prospects for over ten years now. Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, Span, Revere, Parmelee... In the wings, they have Arcia, Hicks, Rosario, Sano, and Buxton.

Hitting isn't the problem and I don't think we should be complaining about how the Twins advance their position prospects. They've done a very good job of preparing these guys for Major League pitching.

There are literally just two (maybe three) above average proven hitters in that MLB list at their position. Cuddyer, Kubel are what you'd get from most corner outfielders. Revere and Parmelee have yet to prove anything yet, and while Revere has an interesting skillset, he's not a good hitter overall. Span has proven he can get on base (he's the maybe) but hasn't been able to put together a full good season in three years.

It's also frighteningly apparent that the Twins haven't been able to produce a respectable slugger since Morneau. That may change in the near future, but I'd argue that "churning out very good hitters for ten years" is a bit of an exaggeration. I can't think of a season in the last 10 years where they had a fearsome lineup.

IdahoPilgrim
09-11-2012, 01:13 PM
Consistent promotions through AAA (with at least 200 PA there) just makes sense to me.

I agree. If a player can't succeed against those who are not good enough to be on the MLB roster, than what makes us think they'll succeed against a higher calibre of opposition?

greengoblinrulz
09-11-2012, 02:09 PM
When starting this post, it wasnt totally about Eaton/Roberts but rather about how slow everday players are promoted.
Can you name the last everyday player to make his MLB debut 2 full yrs after their draft....i cant as Mauer was the beginning of his 3rd
Other teams fairly regularly do. Why not here. Im just frustrated but its not only the FOffice as Gardy has never been a fan of younger players....he prefers the Carsons over the Hicks

gunnarthor
09-11-2012, 02:18 PM
When starting this post, it wasnt totally about Eaton/Roberts but rather about how slow everday players are promoted.
Can you name the last everyday player to make his MLB debut 2 full yrs after their draft....i cant as Mauer was the beginning of his 3rd
Other teams fairly regularly do. Why not here. Im just frustrated but its not only the FOffice as Gardy has never been a fan of younger players....he prefers the Carsons over the Hicks

I'm pretty sure most teams do not "fairly regularly" debut players within two years. And, as I mentioned in a different thread on nearly this topic, Mauer had fewer MiLB at bats than Trout when he was promoted.

nicksaviking
09-11-2012, 02:40 PM
When starting this post, it wasnt totally about Eaton/Roberts but rather about how slow everday players are promoted.
Can you name the last everyday player to make his MLB debut 2 full yrs after their draft....i cant as Mauer was the beginning of his 3rd
Other teams fairly regularly do. Why not here. Im just frustrated but its not only the FOffice as Gardy has never been a fan of younger players....he prefers the Carsons over the Hicks

I agree the promotions are often undeservedly slow, but the Twins tend to draft college arms and HS bats. Rarely does a HS player make it to the majors in 2 years. However you would think a 21-year-old would make it once in awhile.

As for Mauer, there was no reason he needed to spend an entire year at Beloit. He did just fine coming out of AA, but he probably would have been even more prepared had he already been in AAA which likely would have happened if he would have split a season between Beloit and Ft. Myers.

I don't have a huge issue with how the Twins handle the guys from A+ ball up. The problem is Beloit. For some reason the Twins think every HS draftee needs to work out all their kinks in low A ball instead of using that level as a rest stop on their way to Ft. Myers where the real coaches and instructors are. Arcia got out of Wisconsin early last year and maybe that's a sign the orgainzation is ready to change, but forcing everyone to spend an entire year there turns it into a waiting room, not a development camp.

joeboo_22
09-11-2012, 03:10 PM
I don't have a problem with holding a high schooler or an international player back an extra year. But the 22-23 year old college draftees need to be pushed through the system. It needs to be a they flamed out or they succeeded, not a well he wasn't 100% ready so we kept him an extra year in low A.

Shane Wahl
09-11-2012, 04:09 PM
The main issue is that the Twins don't seem to like the idea of using every level in the minors as a place for prospects to get time. That is, they think of AAA as merely a dumping ground for so-called "veterans" like Joe Thurston and Clete Thomas (being older does not make one a veteran). The result is that there can be a logjam that develops and there clearly is one in terms of OF prospects. Beloit next year is going to be packed with them somehow.

Riverbrian
09-11-2012, 06:47 PM
while Revere has an interesting skillset, he's not a good hitter overall.

If Revere isn't a good hitter... The list of good hitters gets pretty tiny.

snepp
09-11-2012, 06:56 PM
Offensively he's been roughly league average if you include base running value. Whether that is a "good hitter" or not depends on the definition I guess.

Shane Wahl
09-12-2012, 01:25 AM
Revere is a good hitter. He is not yet a good batter.

mike wants wins
09-12-2012, 09:11 AM
I think the biggest difference in philosophy between the Twins and winners is the Twins lack of willingness to deal big time prospects for proven major league players.

jimbo92107
09-12-2012, 09:20 AM
Unfortunately, the knee injury to Roberts completely blows your comparison. I'm not saying you're wrong about your overall point, but a bad knee will definitely keep a guy from moving up, in any organization.

jimbo92107
09-12-2012, 09:48 AM
The Twins minor league teams are missing something other than their promotion policy. What they should be teaching is an attitude of hammer down, full speed aggressive baseball.

I'm talking about pushing the envelop beyond sound limits, then learning how to pull back just enough to win. That means stealing bases a lot more, which means taking chances and at first getting thrown out, a lot. It means every pitcher works more on pick-off moves. It means your players learn more tricks. It means you go up to bat with a swing-first attitude.

Yeah, it also means your guys will get struck out and thrown out a lot more, at first. But it's better for a player to learn to tone down aggression than to ramp it up later in their career. Right now the Twins minor league system is producing lots of meticulously coached, very careful, overly passive ball players.

Joe Mauer is the perfect example of what they were trying to achieve. Mauer never gets mad, hardly ever swings at pitches outside the zone, is squeaky clean, and sets a standard that is practically impossible for a typical human. He's like a baseball computer out there, and every move he makes is done correctly.

Tell you what, I liked A.J. Pierzynski better. He gets dirty, he gets mad, he swears, he swings really hard. Opponents hate him and his fans love him. Thing about A.J. is, he plays the game with emotion. He's aggressive, which is fun to watch.

I have no objection to managers like Kelly or Gardenhire as the calm captain, but that doesn't mean you want a team full of calm, calculating players. A guy like Dan Gladden wouldn't be on today's Twins very long, because he gets too emotional, and he's too aggressive. Too much like Dustin Pedroia. I guess players like that don't fit the corporate model of a team owned by bankers.

Twins Twerp
09-12-2012, 09:50 AM
The conversation should be less about the speed at which the organization promotes and more about the lack of talent we have had in the system. The past 10 or so years I would say, we haven't signed (latin) or drafted anyone worth promoting through the system at a rapid pace. The jury is still out on Arcia, Hicks, Sano and others signed recently. But after Kubel, there really was no one that we drafted that panned out. This may be the chicken or the egg argument, but I think the front office should be hammered more for drafting poorly, than developing poorly.

gunnarthor
09-12-2012, 10:15 AM
I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

Shane Wahl
09-12-2012, 11:26 AM
I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.

greengoblinrulz
09-12-2012, 12:24 PM
There is a difference in HS draftees vs collegiate also but MN handles them the same.....go to ELIZ then BEL then Ft Myerse etc.....college guys need to be pushed much much faster in this organiation.
What frustrates me is that MN advances players due to age not due to success BUT then turns around & promotes a guy like Steve Liddle (just an ex). They just dont promote drafted college guys (outside of rounds 1 or 2) as quickly when they show success......gotta do it according to team guidlelines I guess!!!! This is how you end up with a 25yr old Brian Dozier not ever being in AAA for ex.
MN tends to argue they place their older players 'where they have the best probability to succeed' Heard that from Jim Rantz far too often instead of challenging a guy & see if better competition brings it out in the player.

greengoblinrulz
09-12-2012, 12:28 PM
I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)

Alex
09-12-2012, 01:01 PM
while Revere has an interesting skillset, he's not a good hitter overall.

If Revere isn't a good hitter... The list of good hitters gets pretty tiny.

Revere is probably one of the more overrated hitters in the organization because he puts up a good average. This doesn't mean he's a good hitter and certainly it doesn't mean he's a good hitter overall. Among qualified CF, he's 5th in average but that's about as good as it gets. Despite 5th in average, he's 10th in OBP, bottom 4 is SLG and wOBA, and has an OPS below .700.

While I like Revere as a player and, as mentioned, has some other tools that give him value, I don't think he should really be held up as a shining example of the hitters the Twins minor league produces.

gunnarthor
09-12-2012, 03:12 PM
Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)

Again, that's not quite true either. Liriano dominated at 22, Mauer was handed the starting gig at 21 and, outside of the injury, was good. Garza was up at 22 for good. Santana was a 2.5 WAR relief pitcher at 23. Many of our players were called up young (22-23) but didn't start clicking until 23-25 but that doesn't seem that unusual to me. Most teams have that. Just a quick look at the White Sox top 9 and you see that most of their principal guys didn't break out until 25 or so. AJ (24), Konerko (23), Beckham (still waiting), Ramirez (25), Youk (27), Viciedo (still waiting), De Aza (28), Rios (25), Dunn (21). Compared to the the Twins - Mauer (22), Morneau (25), Casilla (still waiting), Dozier (still waiting), Plouffe (26), Willingham (27), Span (24), Revere (24), Doumit (24).

drjim
09-12-2012, 04:29 PM
There is a difference in HS draftees vs collegiate also but MN handles them the same.....go to ELIZ then BEL then Ft Myerse etc.....college guys need to be pushed much much faster in this organiation.
What frustrates me is that MN advances players due to age not due to success BUT then turns around & promotes a guy like Steve Liddle (just an ex). They just dont promote drafted college guys (outside of rounds 1 or 2) as quickly when they show success......gotta do it according to team guidlelines I guess!!!! This is how you end up with a 25yr old Brian Dozier not ever being in AAA for ex.
MN tends to argue they place their older players 'where they have the best probability to succeed' Heard that from Jim Rantz far too often instead of challenging a guy & see if better competition brings it out in the player.

Levi Michael puts a huge dagger in your point. It had been over a decade since the Twins took a college bat near that high.

Shane Wahl
09-14-2012, 01:12 AM
I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)

Yep. Repeat seasons at Beloit and New Britain are the big killers besides being slow as hell to promote to Beloit in the first place. Arcia's trajectory is great, though. Benson and Parmelee were ok, Hicks is good, and Revere's was a forced move (and a mistake in 2011, certainly). Again, as I have said a bunch of times, there was a study of minor league PAs and IPs and through 2010 the Twins were the slowest promoters in baseball for position players and top 3-4 in slowness for pitchers. This has changed somewhat thanks to Revere and even Parmelee, but it remains true that something is just off. Getting legitimate prospects up at 25 or higher for the first time is a WASTE of time, namely the 23-25 years.

old nurse
09-14-2012, 01:42 AM
I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)

Yep. Repeat seasons at Beloit and New Britain are the big killers besides being slow as hell to promote to Beloit in the first place. Arcia's trajectory is great, though. Benson and Parmelee were ok, Hicks is good, and Revere's was a forced move (and a mistake in 2011, certainly). Again, as I have said a bunch of times, there was a study of minor league PAs and IPs and through 2010 the Twins were the slowest promoters in baseball for position players and top 3-4 in slowness for pitchers. This has changed somewhat thanks to Revere and even Parmelee, but it remains true that something is just off. Getting legitimate prospects up at 25 or higher for the first time is a WASTE of time, namely the 23-25 years.
The recent statistic for slowness may be indisputable, but the reason is disputable. Are they poor at developing prospects or are they poor at picking prospect?. The latter would account for the slow development times. True talent will rise, see Arcia as the best recent example. You cite Revere and Pamalee's rise. Mauer rose quickly as have others. Talent will rise through the Twin's system, they just have to do a better job of picking it. The last draft had plenty of players shuffled up a level.

gunnarthor
09-14-2012, 09:37 AM
I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)

Yep. Repeat seasons at Beloit and New Britain are the big killers besides being slow as hell to promote to Beloit in the first place. Arcia's trajectory is great, though. Benson and Parmelee were ok, Hicks is good, and Revere's was a forced move (and a mistake in 2011, certainly). Again, as I have said a bunch of times, there was a study of minor league PAs and IPs and through 2010 the Twins were the slowest promoters in baseball for position players and top 3-4 in slowness for pitchers. This has changed somewhat thanks to Revere and even Parmelee, but it remains true that something is just off. Getting legitimate prospects up at 25 or higher for the first time is a WASTE of time, namely the 23-25 years.
The recent statistic for slowness may be indisputable, but the reason is disputable. Are they poor at developing prospects or are they poor at picking prospect?. The latter would account for the slow development times. True talent will rise, see Arcia as the best recent example. You cite Revere and Pamalee's rise. Mauer rose quickly as have others. Talent will rise through the Twin's system, they just have to do a better job of picking it. The last draft had plenty of players shuffled up a level.

There's a third reason for the slowness thing - I think the report was by hardball times - the Twins don't give up on prospects and don't spend on free agents. So a guy like Tommy Watkins will end up getting a cup of coffee at 27 instead of the Twins signing a free agent to replace Koskie. The Twins also didn't give up on high draft picks like Span and Plouffe long after their fan base did.

Oxtung
09-15-2012, 12:47 AM
I have yet to see any compelling reason why the Twins should promote faster in general. The only reasons given so far seem to be: one, an individual predilection to pushing players or two, slow promotion stunts growth but there was no evidence accompanying this claim so really this seems to circle back to point one, predilection. The way baseball is setup right now there doesn't seem to be much advantage to pushing most players quickly to the majors. You're going to get 6 years of control whether that is 23-29 or 25-31 years old.

mlhouse
09-15-2012, 03:46 AM
I think the biggest difference in philosophy between the Twins and winners is the Twins lack of willingness to deal big time prospects for proven major league players.

And, this is the one of the biggest failures of this team in the past 10 years. We have had high end prospects that have never added real value that we could have dealt for quality veterans. And, the value of making those deals is that trading prospects is a highly leveraged trading strategies. For example, by dealing a handful of prospects you can get a pitcher like Johann Santana. You just have to be willing to pay him.

Next, as I have pointed out elsewhere, the Twins simply are not able to pull the plug and switch to rebuilding mode. They can't without removing Gardenhire and his staff because they are not able to work with young players, and that might be the hold up. I appreciate loyalty, but when you are amongst the worst 3-4 teams in baseball two years in a row you need to be rebuilding.

Finally, another problem with the Twins minor league organization is a lack of a Short A minor league team. Instead, we send almost all of our college draftees to Elizabethton. This creates a stacked team and exciting league championships, but creates a log jam of this talent in the minors. From Elizabethton they are all going to Beloit, which means the 19 year old HS players like Hudson Boyd and Harrison are now mixed in with a large clump of college players. IF the Twins sent the bulk of the college players to a short season A team that would leave more innings/ABs to the players in Rookie+ that needs them.

Then, the top half of the short-season A team would move to Ft Myers instead of Beloit combined with the players that move from Beloit to Ft Myers. That moves them up one year faster than the normal TWins progress. And, while some will fail in this transition, that is not the point, and in fact, that failure is to teh Twins advantage. That is, instead of progressing through the minors at a leisurley pace and then fizzling in AA or AAA, they fizzle two or three years ealier in A+.

old nurse
09-15-2012, 06:40 AM
I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.

Joe Benson's cumulative at New Britain in 2011 was not so great as to say he was overqualified to be there. His 28 games at Rochester this year showed he did not belong there this year. Prior to 2011 he moved through a couple of levels every year. Developed too slowly? Don't think so.

Thegrin
09-15-2012, 07:51 AM
Don't ignore the Twins draft position. The Twins don't get top 10 draft picks, most years. If one of their prospects advances fast, it means many other teams passed on that player, for some reason. So the Twins have tried to compensate by taking Sano, Kepler, Hughes, Hendriks etc from outside the USA. Look at Gibson. Teams shied away from picking him because of fear of arm problems. Where did he spend 2012 ? on the DL.

Shane Wahl
09-15-2012, 08:09 AM
I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.

Joe Benson's cumulative at New Britain in 2011 was not so great as to say he was overqualified to be there. His 28 games at Rochester this year showed he did not belong there this year. Prior to 2011 he moved through a couple of levels every year. Developed too slowly? Don't think so.

In 472 plate appearances in 2011 at New Britain: .285/.388/.495, 28 doubles, 3 triples, 16 homers. Not sure what on earth you are talking about. Between 2010 and 2011 he had 900 damn plate appearances at New Britain with 39 homers and an OPS around .874. So, again, I don't know what you are talking about.

With regard to Rochester in 2012, first he was injured, second he has 108 plate appearances. The appropriate decision was to let him overcome struggles in AAA. AAA still is the closest to the majors. He's a top prospect . . . demoting back to a level where he was great at for 900 plate appearances prior to 2012 is terribly stupid.

Jim H
09-15-2012, 09:57 AM
Those were nice numbers by Benson, the 2nd time around at New Britian but they sure weren't dominating numbers. If you go back and look at Kubel's numbers at AA you will see dominating numbers. That is why he was promoted so agressively. Cuddyer's numbers at New Britian (the 2nd year) were pretty dominating. My thoughts about this promoting too slowly stuff, is that the player tends to show where he belongs. Hicks is a top prospect, but his numbers last year at Fort Myers didn't scream, Promote Me. Even this year, the numbers are good, and got better, mostly, during the year. Still there isn't anything dominating about them.

What the Twins often seem to try to do is put their best prospects at where they seem to belong, filling in with what is largely, well, filler. For example, despite what were largely poor numbers, Plouffe was actually promoted quite agressively till he got to AAA. There he stalled out. Now, hard as is it to believe, Plouffe moght of been promoted TOO agressively. There is no exact science to promoting and developing prospects. Clearly, sometimes prospects are demoted to give them a kick in the pants. That happened after AJ made it the majors for a fall callup. He actually started in AA the next year as wakeup call.

We all know that promoting top prospects too aggressively can backfire to various degrees. We saw it closeup with Young and Gomez. Neither was fundementally sound when they reached the majors, and while they weren't necessarily horrible with the Twins, their time here was mostly a disaster, perhaps in part because they had been promoted too agressively.

old nurse
09-15-2012, 10:25 AM
I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.

Joe Benson's cumulative at New Britain in 2011 was not so great as to say he was overqualified to be there. His 28 games at Rochester this year showed he did not belong there this year. Prior to 2011 he moved through a couple of levels every year. Developed too slowly? Don't think so.

In 472 plate appearances in 2011 at New Britain: .285/.388/.495, 28 doubles, 3 triples, 16 homers. Not sure what on earth you are talking about. Between 2010 and 2011 he had 900 damn plate appearances at New Britain with 39 homers and an OPS around .874. So, again, I don't know what you are talking about.

With regard to Rochester in 2012, first he was injured, second he has 108 plate appearances. The appropriate decision was to let him overcome struggles in AAA. AAA still is the closest to the majors. He's a top prospect . . . demoting back to a level where he was great at for 900 plate appearances prior to 2012 is terribly stupid.

First off, I said overqualified. Benson had very good numbers at New Brittain. They were not good enough to make him an All Star for the Eastern league.
All reports I read and can go back and find deal with Benson having an attiude at Rochester. There is no mention of an injury. The hand soreness developed after he was a New Britain and could have well been caused by him punching a wall yet again. His performance with a bat at Rochester was poor. 100 plate appearance is an adequate sample size to give him a chance to work it out.

roger
09-15-2012, 04:33 PM
[/QUOTE]First off, I said overqualified. Benson had very good numbers at New Brittain. They were not good enough to make him an All Star for the Eastern league.
All reports I read and can go back and find deal with Benson having an attiude at Rochester. There is no mention of an injury. The hand soreness developed after he was a New Britain and could have well been caused by him punching a wall yet again. His performance with a bat at Rochester was poor. 100 plate appearance is an adequate sample size to give him a chance to work it out.[/QUOTE]

Your comment about 'Benson having an attitude at Rochester' is not an accurate description of what I understand the problem was. This statement tells me he was a problem and 'having an attitude' would indicate something negative. To discuss the problem, one needs to begin with discussing Benson's very competitive nature. The problem at Rochester as I have heard from their announcers and people writing in the Democrat and Chronicle was that his competitive nature combined with an early slump caused him to get very down on himself as he tried to improve his results, ie, he was putting tremendous pressure on himself to do better. To me, that is not an attitute problem. Perhaps to you it is.

He dealt with two injuries this year. The hand injury was not soreness, it was a broken hamate bone which required surgery. Again referring to local writers, they referred to a specific game when it happened. Making a statement about 'him punching a wall yet again" is throwing things out on the internet that just should not be there. If you have something to support such a claim, please let us know where it came from.

As for not being injured at Rochester, we don't know if that is true. We know when his hand was injured and that was after he was demoted to New Britain. He later had knee surgery. I have not seen anything telling us about when his knee was injured, perhaps Seth knows more. What I can gather is that it was something he was dealing with and the doctors went in to clean it out. When in surgery, they found it was more serious than they thought and instead of being a few week recovery he was shut down for at least four months. Without knowing exactly what was involved with the surgery, it appears he had been dealing with a knee problem for some time which may, or may not, have been present while in Rochester and may, or may not, have affected his play.

Twins Daily is an exciting and wildly successful blog with tremendous readership. Please don't put things out there that are merely speculation. Again, if you have specific information supporting your position please provide it so we all will know more about what really happened to a very talented and athletic young man.

Shane Wahl
09-15-2012, 04:54 PM
I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.

Joe Benson's cumulative at New Britain in 2011 was not so great as to say he was overqualified to be there. His 28 games at Rochester this year showed he did not belong there this year. Prior to 2011 he moved through a couple of levels every year. Developed too slowly? Don't think so.

In 472 plate appearances in 2011 at New Britain: .285/.388/.495, 28 doubles, 3 triples, 16 homers. Not sure what on earth you are talking about. Between 2010 and 2011 he had 900 damn plate appearances at New Britain with 39 homers and an OPS around .874. So, again, I don't know what you are talking about.

With regard to Rochester in 2012, first he was injured, second he has 108 plate appearances. The appropriate decision was to let him overcome struggles in AAA. AAA still is the closest to the majors. He's a top prospect . . . demoting back to a level where he was great at for 900 plate appearances prior to 2012 is terribly stupid.

First off, I said overqualified. Benson had very good numbers at New Brittain. They were not good enough to make him an All Star for the Eastern league.
All reports I read and can go back and find deal with Benson having an attiude at Rochester. There is no mention of an injury. The hand soreness developed after he was a New Britain and could have well been caused by him punching a wall yet again. His performance with a bat at Rochester was poor. 100 plate appearance is an adequate sample size to give him a chance to work it out.

Some big-time speculation here. Conversation over.

greengoblinrulz
09-15-2012, 06:58 PM
Benson's struggles in ROC can also be traced....I believe....to frustration.
He & Parmelee have played together at every level. Benson has been the better prospect, by ranking, but Chris outplayed him in Sept & made the team out of spring training. Surely that got his attention.
Then the team completely admits they dont have a RFer in mind & never consider him once. They go throu Doumit, Revere (sent back), Komatsu (rule v), Mastoianni & Clete Thomas(waivers) in April but NEVER considered the former minor league player of the year. Mn has often called up a player who had been strugglin in AAA before (and they succeded in majors)...but never even had Joe in its sights & I think the frustration set in at ROC.

SpantheMan
09-15-2012, 10:01 PM
I think the biggest difference in philosophy between the Twins and winners is the Twins lack of willingness to deal big time prospects for proven major league players.
Dealing top proscects generally backfires. When the twins dealt Ramos people were furious.

mike wants wins
09-15-2012, 11:03 PM
Dealing a top prospect for a relief pitcher is stupid. What does that have to so with trading for something of actual value?

Pius Jefferson
09-16-2012, 12:45 AM
They offered Ramos for Cliff Lee and the Mariners turned the offer down.

old nurse
09-16-2012, 08:13 AM
First off, I said overqualified. Benson had very good numbers at New Brittain. They were not good enough to make him an All Star for the Eastern league.
All reports I read and can go back and find deal with Benson having an attiude at Rochester. There is no mention of an injury. The hand soreness developed after he was a New Britain and could have well been caused by him punching a wall yet again. His performance with a bat at Rochester was poor. 100 plate appearance is an adequate sample size to give him a chance to work it out.[/QUOTE]

Your comment about 'Benson having an attitude at Rochester' is not an accurate description of what I understand the problem was. This statement tells me he was a problem and 'having an attitude' would indicate something negative. To discuss the problem, one needs to begin with discussing Benson's very competitive nature. The problem at Rochester as I have heard from their announcers and people writing in the Democrat and Chronicle was that his competitive nature combined with an early slump caused him to get very down on himself as he tried to improve his results, ie, he was putting tremendous pressure on himself to do better. To me, that is not an attitute problem. Perhaps to you it is.

He dealt with two injuries this year. The hand injury was not soreness, it was a broken hamate bone which required surgery. Again referring to local writers, they referred to a specific game when it happened. Making a statement about 'him punching a wall yet again" is throwing things out on the internet that just should not be there. If you have something to support such a claim, please let us know where it came from.

As for not being injured at Rochester, we don't know if that is true. We know when his hand was injured and that was after he was demoted to New Britain. He later had knee surgery. I have not seen anything telling us about when his knee was injured, perhaps Seth knows more. What I can gather is that it was something he was dealing with and the doctors went in to clean it out. When in surgery, they found it was more serious than they thought and instead of being a few week recovery he was shut down for at least four months. Without knowing exactly what was involved with the surgery, it appears he had been dealing with a knee problem for some time which may, or may not, have been present while in Rochester and may, or may not, have affected his play.

Twins Daily is an exciting and wildly successful blog with tremendous readership. Please don't put things out there that are merely speculation. Again, if you have specific information supporting your position please provide it so we all will know more about what really happened to a very talented and athletic young man.[/QUOTE]


Getting down on yourself because you are not performing well and saying it is because you are so competitive is an attitude problem. Many people on this board read a slash line, never see a player play and call management stupid for the handling of the players. Through the year the Twins do promote players that are playing well despite what the statistics oriented people think. Look it up. So why didn't they move up Benson last year midseason when they moved him up midseason before? You can speculate and call the Twins stupid. You could speculate the Twins saw a hole in his game that got exposed with a call up the next year. Competitive nature or used to being better than everyone else? No story mentioned what he did to try to make himself better, only that he got down on himself. The story was his mindset or attitude. Call it what you want.
Hand soreness is the listed reason they took him out of the lineup at New Brittain. No cause listed as to why there was hand soreness like being hit with a pitch. Yes your hand will be very sore with a broken bone in it. That is what they discover investigating the hand soreness. When it is a game caused injury, it is listed. There are people who track these things. There was no injury listed. Past behavior has been reported.
If people on this board did not put speculative ideas out there there would not be much out here. When you agree with it, you call it analysis.

Alex
09-16-2012, 07:44 PM
Benson's struggles in ROC can also be traced....I believe....to frustration.
Mn has often called up a player who had been strugglin in AAA before (and they succeded in majors)...but never even had Joe in its sights & I think the frustration set in at ROC.

Please, feel free to name some hitters as I'm curious because I couldn't think of any. Also, what is meant by "success?" The one who defied his minor league numbers is Span, in that he's been mostly able to reproduce his minor league numbers (which until he was 24 would have made him a AAAA player). He always showed good plate discipline but never posted an .800 OPS in the minors for a full season (and in fact was below .700 for many). However, before he was called up, even he started tearing things up in AAA.

Joe Benson had a couple of good seasons at AAA. He was called up last fall and didn't look all that ready, so AAA was a good spot for him to start the season. He did have some injuries this year, so it's hard to actually gauge, but he didn't do anything at any point that merited consideration of making this roster, especially when other OF were performing better. He did nothing to deserve a ML callup. (I'd argue the same for Dozier, but even that was at an incredibly weak position).

Alex
09-16-2012, 07:50 PM
Many people on this board read a slash line, never see a player play and call management stupid for the handling of the players. Through the year the Twins do promote players that are playing well despite what the statistics oriented people think.

You might want to take a look at what statistics oriented people have said about Twins players/moves and then compare them to the moves the Twins have made this season. In some cases, those projections agree, and both groups have been wrong about different players. I've followed things pretty closely, though, and the Twins management could certainly use more statistical analysis.

mike wants wins
09-17-2012, 01:15 PM
So what does that have to do with trading from a position of scarcity for a relief pitcher? Someone turned them down for a good pitcher, so they made a had trade? I do not follow what you are trying to communicate.

old nurse
09-17-2012, 01:39 PM
Many people on this board read a slash line, never see a player play and call management stupid for the handling of the players. Through the year the Twins do promote players that are playing well despite what the statistics oriented people think.

You might want to take a look at what statistics oriented people have said about Twins players/moves and then compare them to the moves the Twins have made this season. In some cases, those projections agree, and both groups have been wrong about different players. I've followed things pretty closely, though, and the Twins management could certainly use more statistical analysis.

You don't think the Twins are more interested in the skills of the developing player? Somewhere in the files is all the information charted from the game. They ought to know what pitches the players hit, what they miss. As they go up a level there should be less mistakes to hit. Likewise they know how good they are doing against the better pitchers. That should be what they are basing decisions on. It explains Buxton moving up despite the overall bad statistics in the GCL. If it were only batting line that mattered in the minor leagues, there would be no need to chart games. This year there was a lot of movement upwards midseason.
Given the nature of injuries the last two years it would appear that AAA is not being used as much for development from AA as it is tuning up major league experienced players and sorting through to find the extra outfielder, emergency infielder, next arm to trot out of the bullpen, etc. The reluctance to let some of the players go that did not work out has some explanation. One could speculate why, but if someone does not like the answer, you get savaged.

BobbyBaseball70
09-23-2012, 08:59 AM
Very well put. Rance needs to go.

BobbyBaseball70
09-23-2012, 09:07 AM
You ate barking the wrong tree with Rams and Roberts. Rams is done, fizzled. He matured early and the bread is hard. As for Roberts, if he can't stay healthy why have him? Seems like he is an avoider of the tough times. He stayed on the DL during the cold months and back on the DL during the dog days. You do the math. If I have a plow horse, I do not want him injured when it time to plant.

johnnydakota
09-23-2012, 09:10 AM
Are we really complaining about how the Twins advance hitting prospects? This organization has been churning out very good hitting prospects for over ten years now. Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, Span, Revere, Parmelee... In the wings, they have Arcia, Hicks, Rosario, Sano, and Buxton.

Hitting isn't the problem and I don't think we should be complaining about how the Twins advance their position prospects. They've done a very good job of preparing these guys for Major League pitching.
6 in ten years is churning out? and 2 of these 6 are still questionable....twins need to fire the entire system and hire real baseball people
ones that can teach....