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View Full Version : Mackey: Twins lineup doing well without Span



Parker Hageman
09-09-2012, 10:54 PM
1500ESPN's Phil Mackey (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Mackey_Span_is_a_fine_player_but_Twins_showing_the y_may_not_need_him090912) presented a compelling case for why the Twins will look to trade center fielder Denard Span this offseason. In addition to the current playing situation with the emergence of Ben Revere and the need for starting pitching, I'm told that the relationship between the outfielder and the manager is not all duckies and bunnies.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out this winter.

greengoblinrulz
09-09-2012, 11:01 PM
They havent been using this OF as Willy isnt playin the OF....its been Doumit & Mastro. Gardy has always talked about how he loves defense, but he's always managed the opposite. As long as you catch the balls you get to, he could care less about any lack of range at any position.

clutterheart
09-09-2012, 11:48 PM
, I'm told that the relationship between the outfielder and the manager is not all duckies and bunnies.

.

What?!?

Please elaborate.

You can't just throw that out there. You don't have to divulge your sources but it would be great to hear more on that nugget you dropped.

beckmt
09-10-2012, 12:05 AM
I think this might come from Span not telling the medical staff or the manager how much he was hurt after the dive he took in August. It will be interesting to see how much he is used when he comes back. That being said, he should be used all the time and showcased for a winter trade, if he does not come back in time, it would almost have to be a spring training trade to get full value for him.

Shane Wahl
09-10-2012, 12:54 AM
The lineup was at its best with Span, Revere, Mauer, Willingham, Morneau, Doumit, Plouffe, Dozier, Carroll. There is no disputing that.

Highabove
09-10-2012, 02:25 AM
, I'm told that the relationship between the outfielder and the manager is not all duckies and bunnies.

.

What?!?

Please elaborate.

You can't just throw that out there. You don't have to divulge your sources but it would be great to hear more on that nugget you dropped.

Last week, Jim Souhan stated on 1500 that the Twins were getting fed up with Span. Not surprisingly, Souhan did not give his source.
From time to time, the Twins have used Souhan as a back channel attack Dog.

stringer bell
09-10-2012, 07:51 AM
Span is a good ballplayer and a bit better leadoff guy than Revere overall, but losing him in place of Revere is a minor dropoff. There is a replacement on the team (Revere) and more replacements in the pipeline. Trading Span is the lowest risk option in an attempt to get pitching for 2013 and beyond.

Winston Smith
09-10-2012, 08:24 AM
Lets hope we hear more about the Twins being "fed up" so they can drive his trade value down. They really need to hire a good used car salesman to talk about these guys they might trade.

kab21
09-10-2012, 08:58 AM
Span is a good ballplayer and a bit better leadoff guy than Revere overall, but losing him in place of Revere is a minor dropoff. There is a replacement on the team (Revere) and more replacements in the pipeline. Trading Span is the lowest risk option in an attempt to get pitching for 2013 and beyond.

The problem with trading Span is that he's had two straight injury riddled seasons and I wouldn't count on getting a lot back. We're certainly not getting a good starter back. The problem is that this might be the Twins way of saying that they are choosing to move Span and they sell low in the offseason to do it.

Rosterman
09-10-2012, 09:44 AM
This trade deadline was the time to move Span, sadly, probably packaged with another player or two to really drive up value at the moment. Now, you compete against free agents, both great and adequate. And being injured again, although it is keeping him from plummeting his average like ti did lat season, raises questions. The Twins would probably be better served with more punch than speed in two of the outfield spots, and leav
ing the punchless middle infield intact.

Shane Wahl
09-10-2012, 09:46 AM
I am not totally comfortable with Revere being a true replacement. That average has to be higher than .300 if he is going to be a leadoff batter. For the millionth time, if I knew that Gardy would move Mauer up to the 2nd spot in the lineup instead of putting Carroll, Escobar, et al. there, I would be fine with trading Span.

Still seems that the most obvious move is trading Morneau for pitching. Very little if any drop in defense, and likely only some drop in power.

stringer bell
09-10-2012, 10:10 AM
I am not totally comfortable with Revere being a true replacement. That average has to be higher than .300 if he is going to be a leadoff batter. For the millionth time, if I knew that Gardy would move Mauer up to the 2nd spot in the lineup instead of putting Carroll, Escobar, et al. there, I would be fine with trading Span.

Still seems that the most obvious move is trading Morneau for pitching. Very little if any drop in defense, and likely only some drop in power.I think there is a bigger risk with moving Morneau. He has been mostly healthy, and he's over .800 in OPS--pretty hard numbers to replace. The nominal replacement is Parmelee who, if he hits all year like he has the last two Septembers, would be fine. I don't think I would consider Parm as much proven as Revere is. Morneau could put up boxcar numbers next year. I am not convinced that he will, but there certainly has been improvement over the course of this year. Finally, what the Twins really lack offensively is power. Moving Morneau would remove one of their top power threats.

stringer bell
09-10-2012, 10:13 AM
Span is a good ballplayer and a bit better leadoff guy than Revere overall, but losing him in place of Revere is a minor dropoff. There is a replacement on the team (Revere) and more replacements in the pipeline. Trading Span is the lowest risk option in an attempt to get pitching for 2013 and beyond.

The problem with trading Span is that he's had two straight injury riddled seasons and I wouldn't count on getting a lot back. We're certainly not getting a good starter back. The problem is that this might be the Twins way of saying that they are choosing to move Span and they sell low in the offseason to do it.
I wouldn't consider Span's 2012 "injury riddled". He missed 9 games with an injury and will miss 15 more days before he returns. It is absolutely in the Twins' best interests to play Span the rest of the year and bring his value up.

Shane Wahl
09-10-2012, 10:20 AM
By the way, rotating 7 (Willingham,Span, Revere, Morneau, Doumit, Parmelee, and Mauer) guys in 6 spots is not totally difficult, esp. if Willingham moves to right field, primarily. Always having one of them available on the bench would be nice, actually.

Signing two FA good SP pitchers for $25 million a year total would be one way to get around trading anybody . . .

mike wants wins
09-10-2012, 10:33 AM
given that Willingham is their largest free agent contract ever, and Ryan has said the free agent pitching market is thin, why would you expect them to sign two big time free agent pitchers? Has any team ever done that in one off season?

kab21
09-10-2012, 11:05 AM
I wouldn't consider Span's 2012 "injury riddled". He missed 9 games with an injury and will miss 15 more days before he returns. It is absolutely in the Twins' best interests to play Span the rest of the year and bring his value up.

Perhaps injury riddled isn't correct but he's missed 32 games with an uncertain return date. This is certainly going to be considered by other GM's.



Still seems that the most obvious move is trading Morneau for pitching. Very little if any drop in defense, and likely only some drop in power.
I don't know what you expect to get from trading Morneau but it's not nearly what you expect.

Twins Twerp
09-10-2012, 11:19 AM
Souhan is an idiot. I don't know why you would quote him considering that station is not listenable. If you listened to KFAN, or just PA, that is the real news. The other guys in town are just idiots. And they don't talk sports most of the time. I hate turning on a radio station and hearing talk about the Law or talk about pop culture. Why can't we just talk about the twins all day long, throw in some vikings, throw in ALOT of Lynx talk, sprinkle in some Rubio. Boom you've got a full show. Instead we have top 10 lists related to stupid things people do. Get on another station. Minnesota radio is the WORST...except for PA

SpiritofVodkaDave
09-10-2012, 11:25 AM
I am not totally comfortable with Revere being a true replacement. That average has to be higher than .300 if he is going to be a leadoff batter. For the millionth time, if I knew that Gardy would move Mauer up to the 2nd spot in the lineup instead of putting Carroll, Escobar, et al. there, I would be fine with trading Span.

Still seems that the most obvious move is trading Morneau for pitching. Very little if any drop in defense, and likely only some drop in power.
Revere will be a decent stop gap at worst, Hicks should be ready to man CF within a year/1.5 years.

JB_Iowa
09-10-2012, 12:05 PM
Lets hope we hear more about the Twins being "fed up" so they can drive his trade value down. They really need to hire a good used car salesman to talk about these guys they might trade.

This.

They've seemingly been poised to trade Span for more than a year. Never got it done. And NOW we're starting to hear rumors that the team is disgruntled with him -- when he still has several years and an option year left on his contract?

How does that make ANY sense at all?

TK10
09-10-2012, 12:34 PM
PA is, by a mile, the most vile and vomit-inducing cretin to ever be given control of the airwaves. He's an empty-headed jock-sniffer of the highest order.

Highabove
09-10-2012, 01:12 PM
Souhan is an idiot. I don't know why you would quote him considering that station is not listenable. If you listened to KFAN, or just PA, that is the real news. The other guys in town are just idiots. And they don't talk sports most of the time. I hate turning on a radio station and hearing talk about the Law or talk about pop culture. Why can't we just talk about the twins all day long, throw in some vikings, throw in ALOT of Lynx talk, sprinkle in some Rubio. Boom you've got a full show. Instead we have top 10 lists related to stupid things people do. Get on another station. Minnesota radio is the WORST...except for PA

Jim Souhan probably started the (Twins angry at Span talk) That is why I cited him.

Brock Beauchamp
09-10-2012, 01:28 PM
The rules of TD clearly state that no personal insults are to be leveled at Twins players, the front office, or journalists. There are multiple instances of it in this thread. The next ones to do it will be facing a 3 day ban.

Twins Twerp
09-10-2012, 02:41 PM
PA is, by a mile, the most vile and vomit-inducing cretin to ever be given control of the airwaves. He's an empty-headed jock-sniffer of the highest order.

Yikes, tell me how you really feel. I am going to have to disagree. I think he is funny, savy, and smart in his sports takes. He always keeps things in perspective is always positive. His speaking manurisms are hilarious. 50 shades of PA? Are you serious, I laugh my bum off when I hear that stuff. The guys at 1500, and the afternoon guys on KFAN, just not that good. I am a big non fan of common. If you said this poop tastes bad, he would say this poop taste good. He is a poor man's Colin Cowherd. Guerro is a little more stomachable, but not much. And 1500, Ruesse, has such a winey, icky voice. I just can't listen. I do rarely, like when my choice is death or 1500, I pick 1500 because my life is worth living and the show is better than death, barely.

Twins Twerp
09-10-2012, 02:42 PM
I apologize for calling 1500 idiots. They clearly are not, they are getting paid to do what we do all day, they live the life. I apologize for calling them idiots.

Brock Beauchamp
09-10-2012, 02:53 PM
I apologize for calling 1500 idiots. They clearly are not, they are getting paid to do what we do all day, they live the life. I apologize for calling them idiots.

Don't worry about it too much, just try to tone it down in future posts. It's a fine line to cross but we try to make sure that public personalities don't have too many insults leveled at this in this forum. I know I've been guilty of it in the past so it's something I have to work on as well.

Oxtung
09-10-2012, 04:03 PM
given that Willingham is their largest free agent contract ever, and Ryan has said the free agent pitching market is thin, why would you expect them to sign two big time free agent pitchers? Has any team ever done that in one off season?

Of course Ryan never actually said that.... The Twin's also have never been in the position their in now. Money to spend, no long term contracts in the pitching staff, terrible rotation. Now maybe Ryan signs some decent starters and maybe he doesn't but you can't criticize him for things he didn't actually say and hasn't actually done.

nicksaviking
09-10-2012, 04:29 PM
PA may be a jock sniffer, but his brown nosing ways get the players to open up to him. You'd learn more about Span and his attitudes toward the club and trade situations listening to him and PA's show once weekly than you'll learn from Souhan's 2nd or 3rd hand gossip.

Someone above mentioned that Hick's is actually Span's eventual replacement, thus we should not be compraing the merits of Revere's defense over Span's. I think it goes further than that, as offensively Hicks also may be a more projectable replacement. He is a very strong OBP guy, as Span was during his best years. If Hicks' AA numbers translate at all to the MLB level, I would think his high OBP would cause the manager to put him ahead of Revere in the lineup.

mike wants wins
09-10-2012, 04:29 PM
According to an article written by souhan he said that. Has any MLB team signed their top two pitchers in one free agent year, ever?

mike wants wins
09-10-2012, 04:36 PM
Maybe I should just stop, we have last year, and years prior to show his philosophy. I see no evidence it has changed. Why should I think it has changed in your opinion?

SweetOne69
09-10-2012, 04:49 PM
According to an article written by souhan he said that. Has any MLB team signed their top two pitchers in one free agent year, ever?

Actually, according to Souhan, Ryan said the "Elite FA Pitching Market is thin"

mike wants wins
09-10-2012, 05:33 PM
Ah, sorry, I forgot that word was in there. Has any MLB team ever signed their top 2 pitchers, and had them been good enough to take them anyplace meaningful, in one offseason?

Thrylos
09-10-2012, 05:41 PM
According to an article written by souhan he said that. Has any MLB team signed their top two pitchers in one free agent year, ever?

Actually, according to Souhan, Ryan said the "Elite FA Pitching Market is thin"

Yeah. I would have to agree with Ryan. Actually non-existent. So you got to trade Span (and Morneau and maybe prospects) to fix the rotation. And unless the rotation is fixed the Twins will not content so they will be wasting Morneau's last season and Span's high value.

kab21
09-10-2012, 07:02 PM
According to an article written by souhan he said that. Has any MLB team signed their top two pitchers in one free agent year, ever?

Actually, according to Souhan, Ryan said the "Elite FA Pitching Market is thin"

Yeah. I would have to agree with Ryan. Actually non-existent. So you got to trade Span (and Morneau and maybe prospects) to fix the rotation. And unless the rotation is fixed the Twins will not content so they will be wasting Morneau's last season and Span's high value.

You're not going to fix the rotation by trading Morneau and Span. neither of these players have significant trade value because of the injuries they have had the past couple of seasons. The only thing you gain with trading these two now is the ability to later complain that they sold low.

Shane Wahl
09-10-2012, 09:18 PM
PA may be a jock sniffer, but his brown nosing ways get the players to open up to him. You'd learn more about Span and his attitudes toward the club and trade situations listening to him and PA's show once weekly than you'll learn from Souhan's 2nd or 3rd hand gossip.

Someone above mentioned that Hick's is actually Span's eventual replacement, thus we should not be compraing the merits of Revere's defense over Span's. I think it goes further than that, as offensively Hicks also may be a more projectable replacement. He is a very strong OBP guy, as Span was during his best years. If Hicks' AA numbers translate at all to the MLB level, I would think his high OBP would cause the manager to put him ahead of Revere in the lineup.

Boom. This is exactly correct. Hicks is Span's replacement (and upgrade *crosses fingers*).

Shane Wahl
09-10-2012, 09:25 PM
Ah, sorry, I forgot that word was in there. Has any MLB team ever signed their top 2 pitchers, and had them been good enough to take them anyplace meaningful, in one offseason?

Point taken. I am going to hope that it happened with Schilling and RJ. What did the Phillies do with regard to Oswalt and Lee? The first would satisfy both conditions . . . if true. The second weren't THE top, more like the 2 and the 4 and of course they didn't win.

I am not saying that they even need a 1 and a 2, but more like a 1 and a 3 or 4. I do believe that there may be some arbitration-year guys with good seasons that could be swapped with Morneau and each side throwing in some other minor pieces, if the Twins don't sign two pitchers.

kab21
09-10-2012, 11:48 PM
After ColbyLewis had TJ and McCarthy nearly died the FA market is down to 4 total pitchers (I think) that I would consider #1-3 MLB starters. Greinke, Marcum, Sanchez and Jackson. I would consider it very difficult to sign half of the good starters in the market in one offseason considering that nearly every team needs pitching.

Oxtung
09-11-2012, 10:58 PM
Maybe I should just stop, we have last year, and years prior to show his philosophy. I see no evidence it has changed. Why should I think it has changed in your opinion?

I'm not claiming Ryan's opinion has changed. I am claiming that the circumstances have changed. Right now there is a combination of factors TR has never had to face in his career as GM. He has quite a bit of money available (or could with a trade), he has virtually no contracts for his pitching staff, he has a staff that has been terrible, and he has little help coming from the minors in the next 3 years or so.

Given these circumstances there is at least some reason to think he might sign a decent FA pitcher. At a minimum there is enough uncertainty to forgo drawing any firm conclusions on what Ryan will or will not do.