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View Full Version : Article: Justin Morneau Reminds Twins Fans That He's Still Here



John Bonnes
09-09-2012, 09:49 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?1022-Justin-Morneau-Reminds-Twins-Fans-That-He-s-Still-Here

Bark's Lounge
09-09-2012, 09:56 PM
I am one of the fans who wants to see Morneau stick around for awhile with the Twins.

Note to the players: Don't him on the head after a walk-off HR!

James
09-09-2012, 10:13 PM
Justin had a great game today. He looks to be back to form, which is great. I would love to see him stick around, but I understand if they were to trade him for some decent pitching in the off season. There is going to be a crowded outfield next season if Parmelee keeps up his production as well. Tough choices are ahead for the Twins FO.

greengoblinrulz
09-09-2012, 10:15 PM
Justin is still a good player but he's not longer a great player. With his health issues, there is no way MN should give him an extension. So what is the upside to keeping him next yr since you wont contend?? Only reason NOT to deal him is because you cannot get a legit deal for him.
Unfortuanately, Ryan doesnt see it that way & will keep him/let him finish the season & walk away with MN possibly getting a draft pick or Justin acceptin a 1yr arb deal.

striker_86
09-09-2012, 10:41 PM
yeah, we need to trade him for pitching, it will also free up cap space to sign a legitimate starter as well. Mauer is finishing the year strong too

OldManWinter
09-09-2012, 10:42 PM
I hope "the Big Canadian" stays too. Find some other way to add pitchers. Morneau is good for the community and good for the team. Guys like that should be entitled to finish their career with the original team/city if they choose.

clutterheart
09-09-2012, 11:44 PM
They keep showing that the bats are enough to at least win the central division.

But Ryan keeps bad mouthing the line up because he wants to continue to lower expectations so he doesn't have to justify not spending any money this offseason.

But in my opinion they are two quality starting pitchers away from contention.

OldManWinter
09-09-2012, 11:57 PM
How has Ryan bad mouthed the lineup?

beckmt
09-10-2012, 12:15 AM
They keep showing that the bats are enough to at least win the central division.

But Ryan keeps bad mouthing the line up because he wants to continue to lower expectations so he doesn't have to justify not spending any money this offseason.

But in my opinion they are two quality starting pitchers away from contention.

I agree they are at least 2 quality starters away. That being said, the clubs that need first base help are the clubs without big budgets, Parmalee and Span will have more value to bring pitching from those clubs. With some of the big spending clubs needing pitching, I expect the price on reasonable starting pitching to be out of site, therefore a trade is the only option.

Top Gun
09-10-2012, 02:13 AM
Piching is over rated, we don't need anymoe pitchers.

Montecore
09-10-2012, 03:05 AM
Morneau is capable of having a 30 HR, 100 RBI season in 2013. Keep him.

Twins Twerp
09-10-2012, 08:32 AM
TRADE HIM. Do it while he's hot so we can maximize his value. Get pitching and never look back.

Brock Beauchamp
09-10-2012, 08:38 AM
TRADE HIM. Do it while he's hot so we can maximize his value. Get pitching and never look back.

His value is still incredibly low. There is little point in trading him right now. No team is going to give up much of anything for a recovering first baseman who is owed $14m in 2013.

mk
09-10-2012, 08:59 AM
Morneau will have a good year in 2013 no matter where he is. It looks like his injury issues are behind him and, when healthy, Morneau is as good as any 1B in the league. The Twins are lucky to have him.

I think the Twins have a lineup to build around (it'd also be nice to add a SS) and I hope they decide to make a run at some legitimate starting pitching via free agency and try to contend in 2013. With Pavano, Baker, Liriano, Capps, Zumaya, and Marquis not on the payroll, that should free up around $25 million. And, in my dreams, I think back to the payroll of 2011 where the Twins would have $41 million to spend afer 2012.

Also, looking at costs down the road, it doesn't look like anyone other than middle relievers are reaching arbitration anytime soon and after 2013, Blackburn, Nishi, and Carroll's $12 million come off the books.

It seems the only way to get good starting pitching is to either develop it (hard for the Twins lately) or pay for it. I think it would be a better investment for the Twins to spend the cash rather than the prospects.

SpiritofVodkaDave
09-10-2012, 10:07 AM
Keep Morneau around for now, Span is going to get you a better package at this point anyways.
If the Twins compete in 2013, then roll with Morneau, if they fall out of it you can easily trade him at the deadline and probably get a much better package then currently.

A lineup of
Revere
Mauer
Willingham
Morneau
Doumit
Parmele
Plouffe
who cares
who cares

Would be pretty damn nice.

Curt
09-10-2012, 11:34 AM
OK, I am officially no longer in favor of platooning Morneau with Valencia.

kab21
09-10-2012, 11:37 AM
Willingham will probably get you a better package than Morneau and Span combined. If I was trading someone that's who it would be. I do not trust his health at all.

Loosey
09-10-2012, 12:08 PM
Or the Twins organization could act like "Big Boys" and keep an improving Morneau as well as spend some money on pitching and instantly be in the Central Division conversation next year. I'm not talking about other team "ace" type pitchers, I mean sign two quality starters and go from there, $10-$12M a piece guys.

JB_Iowa
09-10-2012, 12:17 PM
TRADE HIM. Do it while he's hot so we can maximize his value. Get pitching and never look back.

His value is still incredibly low. There is little point in trading him right now. No team is going to give up much of anything for a recovering first baseman who is owed $14m in 2013.

And that's the real dilemma. I keep reading people saying "Keep Him" and "Extend HIm" but if other GMs were as confident as some of the posters that his health issues are behind him, his trade value wouldn't be so low (even taking into account the $14 million for 2013.)

I don't think that they have much choice but to keep him. And say daily (or more frequent) prayers that he doesn't get hurt again. After the last 3 years, I'm happy to think that he is giving the team value again (yes I know there were periods in there where he gave good value but this has been a long haul -- starting in August 2009). I'm just continuing to hold my breath hoping that he stays healthy.

ashburyjohn
09-10-2012, 01:49 PM
Piching is over rated, we don't need anymoe pitchers.

Butera and Slama take care of the 2013 rotation needs, IMO.

Dave T
09-10-2012, 02:38 PM
Piching is over rated, we don't need anymoe pitchers.

Butera and Slama take care of the 2013 rotation needs, IMO.

What? ;)

The Twins need pitching, but they also need fans in the stands. Morneau produces, and most fans notice this. I consider Morneau untradeable until Sano shows up.

mike wants wins
09-10-2012, 02:52 PM
Fans show up for winners. They will not show up for crappy teams just because morneau is there.

Oxtung
09-10-2012, 03:43 PM
Fans show up for winners. They will not show up for crappy teams just because morneau is there.

I agree that winning has the largest effect on attendance however, star players certainly do help drive attendance up whether a team is at the bottom or the top of the rollercoaster ride that is sports.

Thegrin
09-10-2012, 04:07 PM
Player




G

AB

R

H

2B



HR
RBI

BB

SO

SB

CS

AVG▼

OBP
SLG

OPS







Morneau, J (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=408047)



51

192

28

61

12



8

35

17

33

0

0

. 318

.369

. 516

. 884





























This is Morneau since the All Star game.
x3 = 153 games played . 24 HR, 105 RBI, 36 2b, .318 Avg,
How much is that worth ? Trade him ? You can't get enough to make a trade worthwhile.

diehardtwinsfan
09-10-2012, 06:27 PM
TRADE HIM. Do it while he's hot so we can maximize his value. Get pitching and never look back.

I doubt he gets much this offseason. I'd expect his value to be at its peak come July... He's cheaper, and I woudln't be shocked in the least if he had an OPS north of .900 to go with it.

twinzgrl
09-10-2012, 07:42 PM
Morneau is one of the most popular players on the Twins team. It is remarkable that he has come back from all the injuries to produce again and be an exciting player. Good for him. I thought he was done... I will be okay with a trade ONLY if we can get a quality pitcher for him. If he has to go, I hope he gets traded to a winning team AND wins another MVP award. That's how much I like him.

Riverbrian
09-10-2012, 08:25 PM
Morneau is one of the most popular players on the Twins team. It is remarkable that he has come back from all the injuries to produce again and be an exciting player. Good for him. I thought he was done... I will be okay with a trade ONLY if we can get a quality pitcher for him. If he has to go, I hope he gets traded to a winning team AND wins another MVP award. That's how much I like him.

I'm with ya. I remember when Justin was in the minors. Meintkewicz was the guy in front of him and I was just waiting for Morneau. Morneau became bigger and bigger in my eyes just because he was still in the minors when his power was needed at the Dome. Waiting for his arrival made me a huge Morneau Fan because you can't support something like that and not be a fan.

Been a fan since day one.

Now I'm at the point where I want that pitching as bad as I wanted Morneau to be called up.

chopper0080
09-10-2012, 10:06 PM
If I am the Twins, I try and extend Morneau to a more manageable salary for about three more years. He is showing the hint of coming back to being a productive middle of the order bat, he can still play good defense, and his value is at an all time low. Morneau will not fetch the starting pitching we need so trading him is not an option in my opinion. He is more valuable to the Twins as a buy low, power bat especially if we can sign him to the final extension of his career. Worse case, we have a moderate investment into a solid C/DH/1B platoon between Morneau, Mauer, Parmalee, and Doumit with Parmalee getting into the outfield rotation as needed. This frees up to possibility of trading Span, Revere or Willingham for much needed pitching help, all whom I think would bring a greater return.

DPJ
09-11-2012, 11:35 AM
I'm just counting down the days till he's gone...14 million can be spent better places then a dizzy 1B.

70charger
09-11-2012, 04:02 PM
I'm just counting down the days till he's gone...14 million can be spent better places then a dizzy 1B.

Who has an OPS+ of 122; identical to his 2007 season. Of course, that includes his stretch of futility prior to the All-Star break.

You're bad at this.

OldManWinter
09-11-2012, 06:37 PM
I hope DPJ can count really high because I have enjoyed Morneau's contributions and hope he continues.

twinsnorth49
09-11-2012, 07:08 PM
I hope DPJ can count really high because I have enjoyed Morneau's contributions and hope he continues.

I have my doubts that he can count very high, sorry.

kab21
09-11-2012, 10:34 PM
I'm just counting down the days till he's gone...14 million can be spent better places then a dizzy 1B.

Who has an OPS+ of 122; identical to his 2007 season. Of course, that includes his stretch of futility prior to the All-Star break.

You're bad at this.

DPJ pretty much hates everyone on the team that is halfway decent but gets paid well. For years he railed against Cuddyer and Baker and now it's Morneau. Sure they make a little too much but not everyone is going to be elite or making the MLB min.

He also hates perkins and Plouffe. His track record is spotty at best.

DPJ
09-12-2012, 07:53 AM
I would have let the Dodgers have him for nothing if they really wanted him. Let Parmelee play 1B and use the funds to get some arms.

I was hoping someone was gonna hit him good in the head and make him dizzy again after that walkoff.

snepp
09-12-2012, 08:09 AM
Let Parmelee play 1B and use the funds to get some arms.

The funds should be there to get some arms regardless. Signing them is another matter. It's hard enough to get one decent free agent starter, you can't assume that dumping Morneau means you get more.

JB_Iowa
09-12-2012, 08:10 AM
I was hoping someone was gonna hit him good in the head and make him dizzy again after that walkoff.

That crosses the line. You can dislike him. You can dislike how much he is paid. You can hope that he is traded. You can have doubts that he will stay healthy. But to hope that a player -- whether for your team or another -- is injured is pretty sick.

DPJ
09-12-2012, 08:13 AM
Let Parmelee play 1B and use the funds to get some arms.

The funds should be there to get some arms regardless. Signing them is another matter. It's hard enough to get one decent free agent starter, you can't assume that dumping Morneau means you get more.

True, but it gives the Twins the funds and ability to overpay (which they might have to) to get those arms. NTM Parmelee isn't an OF, he should be at 1B.

JB_Iowa
09-12-2012, 08:16 AM
Let Parmelee play 1B and use the funds to get some arms.

The funds should be there to get some arms regardless. Signing them is another matter. It's hard enough to get one decent free agent starter, you can't assume that dumping Morneau means you get more.

Having the will to sign them is another. We'll see how much "Will" Terry Ryan has this off-season.

For now, I'm not getting my hopes up. He has said that he doesn't think free agency is the way to acquire starting pitching -- if he spends more than $12-$15 million, I'll be surprised. Look for a Pavano-type (not Pavano but an innings eater) and someone like Baker (cheap plus incentives).

snepp
09-12-2012, 08:16 AM
True, but it gives the Twins the funds and ability to overpay (which they might have to) to get those arms. NTM Parmelee isn't an OF, he should be at 1B.

If it comes down to something like that, I would hope they bring the pitcher (or pitchers) in first, then look to deal Morneau away later if they insist on trimming payroll. You don't want to deal Morneau early, then find you don't have any decent players to spend his money on.

snepp
09-12-2012, 08:20 AM
Having the will to sign them is another.

That certainly plays a part as well.

DPJ
09-12-2012, 08:24 AM
If it comes down to something like that, I would hope they bring the pitcher (or pitchers) in first, then look to deal Morneau away later if they insist on trimming payroll. You don't want to deal Morneau early, then find you don't have any decent players to spend his money on.

You don't wanna sign these arms and then teams know you're up against the wall when trying to move Morneau or Willingham. You never want to give a team an edge in that sense.

snepp
09-12-2012, 08:29 AM
You don't wanna sign these arms and then teams know you're up against the wall when trying to move Morneau or Willingham. You never want to give a team an edge in that sense.

You were advocating dumping him for nothing anyway, so what's the difference?


Or they could bite the bullet, not axe payroll, bring the players in, win more games, make more money, and try to stop the downward spiral that they're quickly getting themselves into. I'm with Chief here, do they really need to cut payroll?

mk
09-12-2012, 08:32 AM
.

Having the will to sign them is another. We'll see how much "Will" Terry Ryan has this off-season.

For now, I'm not getting my hopes up. He has said that he doesn't think free agency is the way to acquire starting pitching -- if he spends more than $12-$15 million, I'll be surprised. Look for a Pavano-type (not Pavano but an innings eater) and someone like Baker (cheap plus incentives).

If free agency isn't the way, then a trade has to be the more appealing option in Ryan's eyes. Who brings back the better pitcher: Morneau, Parmelee, Willingham, Span, or Revere? Or, maybe you look to prospects like Hicks or Arcia who are good prospects in the high minors, especially knowing you still have Buxton and Kepler in the system.

DPJ
09-12-2012, 08:39 AM
You were advocating dumping him for nothing anyway, so what's the difference?


Or they could bite the bullet, not axe payroll, bring the players in, win more games, make more money, and try to stop the downward spiral that they're quickly getting themselves into. I'm with Chief here, do they really need to cut payroll?


I wouldn't have cared if the Twins dropped Morneau off at the trash burner next to TF, whatever gets rid of his salary. But at this point it's pretty clear the Twins think they can actually get some value outta the dumb Canuck. So if that's the case then you don't wanna give another team a heads up in working out a trade.

As for winning games next season...I think we all realize that's a pipedream at best. This is a bad bad bad team, there's little to no help that's gonna contribute from the minors and the front office is gonna cut payroll more. Do they need to cut payroll, ofcourse not. But this is the ****ing Pohalds were talking about here, it's like people forgot how cheap they were cause they raped the city and state for a new stadium.

mk
09-12-2012, 09:32 AM
I think DPJ's comments are misguided. DPJ wants to drop "Morneau off at the trash burner next to TF," and don't believe the Twins will "actually get some value outta the dumb Canuck," yet seems to conceed the Pohlad's won't sign any free agents gained with the salary relief by moving Morneau.

By these statements there are only a couple explanations left for making sure Morneau isn't on the Twins in 2013.

One is because DPJ dosn't think Morneau is a good baseball player and the Twins would be better with someone else (presumably Parmelee). If that's the case, I think you're wrong. An .888 OPS since the all-star break means Morneau is pretty good. Morneau is a solid first baseman and he is compensated accordingly. As far as Parmelee, the best lineup the Twins could present would feature Morneau and Parmelee.

The other explanation is that you want the Twins to field a bad team so they drop attendance to a level where the Pohlads can move the team. If that's the case, I'm sorry, Jake Taylor, Ricky Vaughn, Roger Dorn, and Willie "Mays" Hayes are not available to play for the Twins.

I think the Twins have the position players to compete in 2013. Their lineup is solid as evidenced by scoring the 3rd most runs since the all-star break (behind only the Angels and the A's). One could say that a weakness in the lineup is lack of power and that certainly isn't going to improve by moving Morneau.

DPJ
09-12-2012, 09:39 AM
The Twins aren't gonna contend for quite a few years. Morneau is a 31 year old 1B with the injury history of a world war 2 veteran. He's expensive, he's injury-prone and he's not getting any younger. Morneau isn't part of the future for this team, but Parmelee potentially is. You dump Morneau, you get the arms in here that won't make you a laughing stock around the league and you hope to dig yourself outta being one of the worst teams in the league.

Bad teams get rid of expensive players, it's what you do. Especially when you have a MLB ready 1B waiting in the wings who makes 400K a season.

mk
09-12-2012, 10:13 AM
Bad teams don't get rid of expensive players, bad teams try to get better.

At the current payroll, the Twins should have the flexibility to add significant starting pitching and keep Morneau for 2013. Also, not contending for quite a few years doesn't appear to be Terry Ryan's strategy, otherwise why keep Willingham, Span and Perkins and extend Doumit? If you're in full rebuild mode, why not call up more than 2 minor leaguers for September? I think Terry Ryan's plan is to try to contend in 2013. If things go bad right away, you still have the opportunity to move veterans at the trade deadline.

Injuries happen to everyone. Didn't Parmelee sit the last few games due to soreness?

I also don't think Parmelee will find a long term home at 1B, at least not with the Twins. Morneau is playing there now and if everything remains the same will be there for 2013. Mauer is only catching half the games in 2012, how many games will Mauer be playing at 1B by 2014? My hope is that Parmelee takes ownership of RF.

DPJ
09-12-2012, 10:22 AM
Bad teams don't get rid of expensive players, bad teams try to get better.

At the current payroll, the Twins should have the flexibility to add significant starting pitching and keep Morneau for 2013. Also, not contending for quite a few years doesn't appear to be Terry Ryan's strategy, otherwise why keep Willingham, Span and Perkins and extend Doumit? If you're in full rebuild mode, why not call up more than 2 minor leaguers for September? I think Terry Ryan's plan is to try to contend in 2013. If things go bad right away, you still have the opportunity to move veterans at the trade deadline.

Injuries happen to everyone. Didn't Parmelee sit the last few games due to soreness?

I also don't think Parmelee will find a long term home at 1B, at least not with the Twins. Morneau is playing there now and if everything remains the same will be there for 2013. Mauer is only catching half the games in 2012, how many games will Mauer be playing at 1B by 2014? My hope is that Parmelee takes ownership of RF.

And bad teams get better by sheding expensive players when they have a MLB ready kid in the farm system who makes nothing ready to roll.

None of us know what JR's strategy is, but it doesn't matter what he wants...the Twins won't compete for atleast a few years. The bottom line is the Twins are one of the worst teams in the league and JR ain't going out to sign Greinke &Jackson to get this team right. Sit back and actually look at this team, cause it's a very very bad baseball team.

As for injuries, I know you're not trying to compare Parm's injury history to Morneau.

twinsnorth49
09-12-2012, 11:05 AM
Bad teams don't get rid of expensive players, bad teams try to get better.

At the current payroll, the Twins should have the flexibility to add significant starting pitching and keep Morneau for 2013. Also, not contending for quite a few years doesn't appear to be Terry Ryan's strategy, otherwise why keep Willingham, Span and Perkins and extend Doumit? If you're in full rebuild mode, why not call up more than 2 minor leaguers for September? I think Terry Ryan's plan is to try to contend in 2013. If things go bad right away, you still have the opportunity to move veterans at the trade deadline.

Injuries happen to everyone. Didn't Parmelee sit the last few games due to soreness?

I also don't think Parmelee will find a long term home at 1B, at least not with the Twins. Morneau is playing there now and if everything remains the same will be there for 2013. Mauer is only catching half the games in 2012, how many games will Mauer be playing at 1B by 2014? My hope is that Parmelee takes ownership of RF.

And bad teams get better by sheding expensive players when they have a MLB ready kid in the farm system who makes nothing ready to roll.

None of us know what JR's strategy is, but it doesn't matter what he wants...the Twins won't compete for atleast a few years. The bottom line is the Twins are one of the worst teams in the league and JR ain't going out to sign Greinke &Jackson to get this team right. Sit back and actually look at this team, cause it's a very very bad baseball team.

As for injuries, I know you're not trying to compare Parm's injury history to Morneau.

The Twins are one of the worst teams in baseball but Greinke and Jackson are going to make it right? It's laughable that you contend the team is so very, very bad yet suggest this is what it takes to set it right.

JB_Iowa
09-12-2012, 11:08 AM
The Twins aren't gonna contend for quite a few years. Morneau is a 31 year old 1B with the injury history of a world war 2 veteran. He's expensive, he's injury-prone and he's not getting any younger. Morneau isn't part of the future for this team, but Parmelee potentially is. You dump Morneau, you get the arms in here that won't make you a laughing stock around the league and you hope to dig yourself outta being one of the worst teams in the league.

Bad teams get rid of expensive players, it's what you do. Especially when you have a MLB ready 1B waiting in the wings who makes 400K a season.

The problem is the extremism of your position. I have NO problem with replacing Morneau with a younger, cheaper player (presumably Parmelee). You don't want to extend Morneau, I have no problem with that -- I'm not in favor of it either.

The problem is that he IS signed for 2013 and the Twins will have to pay him $14 million (unless he retires but I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen). So the question is how do you maximize your return?

It seems to me that if you can't find a trade for him this winter (even if it is a salary dump) then you have to hope and pray that he stays healthy and that you can trade him next summer.


But the other problem is that I'm not at all sure that the Twins would actually spend the savings from moving Morneau's contract. So it seems to me that you have to think about whether you want them reducing payroll by getting rid of salary -- maybe it's better to have Morneau's pay in the salary total even though payroll isn't allocated the way you want. I think we all have to be concerned about whether the savings created by moving a contract some how become permanent payroll reductions.

mk
09-12-2012, 11:12 AM
Bad teams don't get better by shedding good players, regardless of how much they're paid. Look at the Pirates. Prior to this year they've been a bad team ever since Bonds left for San Francisco. That was 20 years ago. I hope Terry Ryan isn't on the 20-year rebuilding plan.

Ryan isn't going to sign Greinke and Jackson, probably true, so why the need to conserve payroll by getting rid of Morneau?

"None of us know what JR's strategy is," I'll agree with that, but I'm sure he has a strategy. It just appears to me that with the moves he's made since becoming interim GM points to trying to contend sooner rather than later. Willingham signed through 2014. Doumit signed through 2014. Jamey Carroll signed through 2013. Liriano traded for 2 players that spent time in the majors. What evidence is there that Ryan is planning for 2015 and beyond? I think if he was building for 2015, we'd have seen Span and Morneau traded instead of signing Willingham and Doumit.

Also, not comparing injury histories, just trying to make a point that injuries happen. Yes, Morneau has an injury history. So does Willingham, Span, Mauer, and everyone else not named Ripken Jr. or Gehrig. Parmelee has sat out the last few games, we don't know what his injury history will be.

mike wants wins
09-12-2012, 11:18 AM
Or he hasn't traded those guys in a misguided attempt to stay "relevant" while also rebuilding. There is no evidence, based on last year and over a decade of him as GM that he is willing to sign players or trade for them, to vastly increase the payroll by acquiring very good players. I am willing to see what the strategy is this off-season, but I am betting I will not like it.

DPJ
09-12-2012, 11:38 AM
Bad teams don't get better by shedding good players, regardless of how much they're paid. Look at the Pirates. Prior to this year they've been a bad team ever since Bonds left for San Francisco. That was 20 years ago. I hope Terry Ryan isn't on the 20-year rebuilding plan.


What the hell do the Pirates have to do with this? Morneau isn't part of the future, he won't be here whenever they contend again. So you ditch that salary so you can play the cheap MLB ready 1B you have. What the hell is so hard to understand about this?


The Twins are one of the worst teams in baseball but Greinke and Jackson are going to make it right? It's laughable that you contend the team is so very, very bad yet suggest this is what it takes to set it right.

I mentioned Greinke and Jackson cause they're arms that could make an impact. Even if the Twins were to sign them both I don't think they sniff 80 wins, I just used the two top arms that will be on the market...my god man.

mk
09-12-2012, 12:00 PM
Or he hasn't traded those guys in a misguided attempt to stay "relevant" while also rebuilding. There is no evidence, based on last year and over a decade of him as GM that he is willing to sign players or trade for them, to vastly increase the payroll by acquiring very good players. I am willing to see what the strategy is this off-season, but I am betting I will not like it.

One thing to consider is limited payroll through much of Ryan's tenure. Ryan's highest payroll came in 2007, the year before Smith became GM. That payroll "ballooned" to $71 mil because Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer were arb eligible and an increase in revenues via a new stadium was finally approved.

As for increasing payroll via free agency or trade, it's easy to forget that Rick Reed was owed $15mil for his 37 and 38-year-old seasons. Shannon Stewart was also expensive, but he added a bit more value as I remember.

USAFChief
09-12-2012, 12:04 PM
Let's review DPJ's statements just in this thread:

"I would have let the Dodgers have him for nothing. Let Parmelee play 1st base and use the funds to get some arms."

When reminded the Twins already have the funds,

"true, but it gives them the ability to overpay."

When reminded the Twins could trade Morneau after overpaying:

"You don't wanna sign these arms and then teams know you're up against the wall when trying to move Morneau..."

In the space of three posts we've gone from dumping him for nothing to worrying about the return.

Two posts after THAT, he admits the Twins won't use the money saved to sign good FA pitching anyway.

Hard to argue with the logic in this thread...

mk
09-12-2012, 12:10 PM
Bad teams don't get better by shedding good players, regardless of how much they're paid. Look at the Pirates. Prior to this year they've been a bad team ever since Bonds left for San Francisco. That was 20 years ago. I hope Terry Ryan isn't on the 20-year rebuilding plan.


What the hell do the Pirates have to do with this? Morneau isn't part of the future, he won't be here whenever they contend again. So you ditch that salary so you can play the cheap MLB ready 1B you have. What the hell is so hard to understand about this?


The Twins are one of the worst teams in baseball but Greinke and Jackson are going to make it right? It's laughable that you contend the team is so very, very bad yet suggest this is what it takes to set it right.

I mentioned Greinke and Jackson cause they're arms that could make an impact. Even if the Twins were to sign them both I don't think they sniff 80 wins, I just used the two top arms that will be on the market...my god man.

I used the Pirates as an example because ditching salary is what they did when they began two decades of losing.

I guess the part I don't understand is why anyone who doesn't want the Twins to win spends so much time on a Twins message board.

Ditching salary does not make team better. And, if you think doing a salary dump of $14mil in 2012 would carry into anything the Twins do in 2015, I think you're wrong there too.

DPJ
09-12-2012, 12:12 PM
1. Yes I would have let the Dodgers have him for nothing.
2. They very well might have to overpay to get some decent arms in here. Bad teams more often then not have to overpay to get talent.
3. I said it's pretty clear that the Twins think they can get some value outta Morneau. I disagree, but if that's the plan you're going with, dont' let teams get the upperhand on you.

mike wants wins
09-12-2012, 03:36 PM
What did Ryan do with the payroll in his first year back? He signed Willingham for less than the guy he replaced. He signed doumit for less than the guy he replaced. He signed a couple of relief pitchers for decent prices, and he signed marquis.....so for me, I want to see someones behavior change before I am willing to say it has changed. That seems reasonable to me.

mk
09-12-2012, 04:26 PM
I think Ryan managed the 2012 payroll pretty well. Willingham is outproducing the guy he replaced and Doumit can serve as backup catcher so we don't need to see Butera behind the plate half the time. I think that's two solid pluses for Ryan. He also didn't overspend for guys like Jose Reyes or Jimmy Rollins (not that they were even talked about, but the Twins know they need a shortstop too).

In terms of the Twins most glaring weakness, starting pitching, I like to think Ryan thought/hoped he could get something useful out of Pavano, Baker, Liriano, and Marquis. Those guys won't be a factor on the rotation for 2013 but hopefully the $23.5 mil they were paid will be used to aquire others who can contribute. How many spots do you have to fill? Diamond has been good. Deduno has a sub 4 ERA. DeVries has looked good since coming up. If those are your 3-5 guys, you have a shot, right?

To tell the truth, I wasn't very excited about the Marquis signing either. It seemed Ryan was trying to reincarnate Kenny Rogers from 2003 or Terry Mulholland from 2004. Instead he got the second coming of Sidney Ponson. He also shook the dice and lost on Zumaya for $850K. It was a long shot, but may demonstrate that Ryan is weighing risk/reward when making these decisions.