PDA

View Full Version : Article: Should the Twins shop for a shortstop this offseason?



Parker Hageman
09-07-2012, 09:50 AM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?1018-Should-the-Twins-shop-for-a-shortstop-this-offseason

YourHouseIsMyHouse
09-07-2012, 10:26 AM
I'm all for Maicer Izturis.

Boom Boom
09-07-2012, 10:35 AM
The Twins should be shopping for a lot of things, not the least of which is middle infielders.

To be honest I think the Twins are more likely to sign a free agent shortstop than a starting pitcher.

jimbo92107
09-07-2012, 10:40 AM
Florimon is fun to watch, and he is capable of learning. Lots of guys get better with the glove over time as they become more familiar with their home field and such. Meanwhile he covers a huge area, which Twins pitchers appreciate.

mk
09-07-2012, 10:58 AM
Any chance the Rangers make Elvis Andrus available now that Jurickson Profar, baseball's #1 prospect, is in the majors? What would it take to get him on the Twins? Not saying the Twins should make the move, but all options should be examined.

Also, just taking a quick glance at SS that might be available via free agency, it doesn't seem like there's much to get excited about.

This scenario seems similar to the Pierzynski/Mauer situation. Baseball's top prospect, valuable defensive position, blocked in the majors by an all-star type player just about to get expensive.

Seth Stohs
09-07-2012, 11:19 AM
I'm not against it, but in my mind, it should be all about pitching. Unless you can get Andrus for a reasonable price, I'd be OK with going to spring training with Plouffe, Florimon, Carroll, Escobar and Dozier for three positions and a utility spot or two. We generally agree that next year is not a competitive year for the Twins most likely anyway, right? Get them all some at bats and see if you can get a slightly above average player out of them.

I'm not willing to give up on Dozier yet. I wish he had not been called up for a few more weeks, and I wish he would have been sent down a month earlier so that he could actually work on all these things. Carroll is solid. Florimon and Escobar have good gloves. Get them some time rather than wasting $ that should go to pitching.

Parker Hageman
09-07-2012, 11:28 AM
We generally agree that next year is not a competitive year for the Twins most likely anyway, right?

Then why worry about spending money on pitching?

mike wants wins
09-07-2012, 11:43 AM
Then why keep Mornreau, Span, or Willingham? If they really wanted to, they could try to compete next year. If they are not going to do that, those three and Doumit should all be trades. Yes, they should try to find a shortstop for next year.

Top Gun
09-07-2012, 11:44 AM
The Twins have to many options at ss already, what will you do with them if not given a chance to play, The Twins young SP have look
good, maybe a vet like Guthrie and or Liriaro is all they need.

sorney
09-07-2012, 11:57 AM
Pitching and SS should be their priority every single season until they figure it out.

ashburyjohn
09-07-2012, 11:57 AM
> outside of a geriatric doctor in Sarasota performing physicals

Ew.

Brad Swanson
09-07-2012, 11:58 AM
I think you can hide a defense-only SS on a roster a lot easier than a complete lack of starting pitching.

Elvis Andrus is fantastic, but I am guessing Texas would want starting pitching back i any trade for him. They seem to have their lineup pretty well set, and might even want to keep him, move him or Profar to 2B and move Kinsler to the OF if Hamilton leaves. Good gravy, Texas is good.

Winston Smith
09-07-2012, 12:34 PM
Trade for Hardy, sign Liriano and Lohse all set.
I wish they had a plan either spend some money and try to build a short term playoff team or rebuild.You have Morneau (13), Willingham, Doumit, Carroll and Span thru 14. Now either build a playoff team around these guys, which means spending some money or trade these guys and rebuild for 14 or 15 with youth. I'm not sure you can do both at the same time.
Pick one or the other, imo.

strumdatjag
09-07-2012, 12:38 PM
Don't trade for a SS. Someone must step up between Florimon, Dozier, Escobar and even Nishioka (very good last two weeks of season at Rochester - raising his average from .245 to .258). So, don't waste any of our resources on a veteran - The Twins need soemone in their system to step in and do the job.

greengoblinrulz
09-07-2012, 12:59 PM
Think Andrus will be dealt to ARIZ for Justin Upton, but if not I go after him hard!!!
His play alone will improve the pitching. Center the deal around Hicks/Arcia as MN has shown what they think of those 2 this Sept and they have the OF depth.
If not, Im all for taking a flyer on Stephen Drew & hope his ankle is healed.
If they go with a combo of Dozier, Florimon, Escobar etc.....another 90 loss season is ahead of them.

Seth Stohs
09-07-2012, 01:06 PM
I know they may not all be consistent, but I think there is enough offense to be competitive. If the Twins don't spend most of their funds on pitching, they aren't going to compete. That's why my point is that if they can get a good deal on a SS, great. But the focus has to be on the pitching. Like others have said, give these other guys a chance to step up!

Brad Swanson
09-07-2012, 01:10 PM
Last 10 years, here are the SS that either played the most or played down the stretch for each WS winning team:

2011: Rafael Furcal
2010: Juan Uribe
2009: Derek Jeter
2008: Jimmy Rollins
2007: Julio Lugo
2006: David Eckstein
2005: Juan Uribe
2004: Orlando Cabrera
2003: Alex Gonzalez
2002: David Eckstein

The take-away? Obviously, get Juan Uribe.

Boom Boom
09-07-2012, 01:20 PM
Last 10 years, here are the SS that either played the most or played down the stretch for each WS winning team:

2011: Rafael Furcal
2010: Juan Uribe
2009: Derek Jeter
2008: Jimmy Rollins
2007: Julio Lugo
2006: David Eckstein
2005: Juan Uribe
2004: Orlando Cabrera
2003: Alex Gonzalez
2002: David Eckstein

The take-away? Obviously, get Juan Uribe.

I don't know, I like this Eckstein kid you mention. He's a gamer who battles his tail off and knows how to win.

Rosterman
09-07-2012, 01:45 PM
If the Twins are going to competitive next year and actually sign an arm of two that will be around for at least three seasons, yes, explore something for the 2B/SS/3B position. You can hope that Plouffe bats an acceptable .240 with 20 homers and a few more rbis. You would like some speed eitehr at 2B/SS, as Alexi has shown, but a bit more in the BA department, as well as the ability to over runners around. Dozier hasn't impressed in the field. Florimon not much better. Carroll is the parfect utility guy. But if the Twins aren't competitive, then don't purchase any starters yet. Give guys more of a look. Have a payroll of $70 million and lots of empty seats to go with your announced attendance of 25,000 a game.

greengoblinrulz
09-07-2012, 03:24 PM
biggest gripe on Dozier was his age coming into the season.
Florimon is 6 months older than Dozier and when MN sent him thru waivers this spring to clear him off the 40 man.....not a single other team was interested.
THAT is the player I want goin into the future.

nokomismod
09-07-2012, 03:30 PM
Stay with what you have like Seth said. All free agent resources go into pitching, and trade Span for pitching.

greengoblinrulz
09-07-2012, 04:28 PM
I actually believe we should put the resources into pitching also.....but MN has failed to address the middle infield for the entire Gardy regime, cept the one ODawg/Hardy year. They have chosen weak hitting fringe MLB players to man the middle infield spots. Would love for them to address this eventually, but that will be after Gardy is out of office.

Thrylos
09-07-2012, 06:03 PM
Should they?

No

Will they?

Cannot remember the last season they did not shop for a middle infielder of one type or another... (looked it up, it was 2007 when Bartlett and Castillo, who finished 2006 as the starters, began 2007 as the starters as well, but that was the year of the revolving door at 3B: Punto/L Rod/Butcher/Watkins/etc)

prairiejack
09-07-2012, 06:23 PM
Please no more. You know that Gardenhire continues to look for clones of Nick Punto, and wouldn't trust a shortstop who hits for power. (See J.J. Hardy) If they bring another one in it will be one more projected #2 hitter who hits little but really hustles out there. Enough already.

Top Gun
09-07-2012, 07:03 PM
You know how many free agent OFers are out there? Lots!!

greengoblinrulz
09-07-2012, 07:44 PM
Gardy era
SS-Guzman, Castro, Bartlett, Punto, Cabrera, Hardy, Nishi, Dozier, Florimon
2B- Rivas, Punto, Castillo, Casilla, Hudson, Escobar

notice the similarities.....fail to address this yearly

Riverbrian
09-07-2012, 07:57 PM
Gardy era
SS-Guzman, Castro, Bartlett, Punto, Cabrera, Hardy, Nishi, Dozier, Florimon
2B- Rivas, Punto, Castillo, Casilla, Hudson, Escobar

notice the similarities.....fail to address this yearly

lol... Yeah... We won a lot of division titles with those guys. Until Nishi came to town and wrecked everything.

beckmt
09-07-2012, 09:20 PM
I agree with the comments that starting pitching is the first priority. I do not think a middle infielder will be a big priority this offseason, Let's see what we have next year.

USAFChief
09-07-2012, 09:35 PM
Next offseason?

Can we trade for one before Saturday's game??

greengoblinrulz
09-07-2012, 09:40 PM
options are buying low...ala ARIZ with Aaron Hill. Hill turned around and now one of games best again.
Would anyone be ballsy enough to look at Dan Uggla?? What if ATL picked up Blackburn/Nishi's deal back to cover 9m of his 39m deal left?? Sometimes ya gotta take a chance. He still has 17HR 64RBI & leads NL in walks w/80, what production do we have at the position?? They were rumoured in for Span at one time. Also been a positive UZR fielder this season.
We all want to deal Span for pitching, but how much can ya get for him. Wash's Danny Espinosa was heavily mentioned for him last yr, is currently one of games rising middle infielders (minor league SS) and they have the depth (SLombardozzi) to deal him.
Just a couple names.

greengoblinrulz
09-07-2012, 10:00 PM
expect to get drilled on Uggla idea...but, his 2012 struggles started June 1st.
Since
80gms .163/.306/.312 36runs 12doubles 9HR 33rbi 93k 46bb 2/3 sb ...pretty bad numbers & as bad as he can get
Twins 2B all season
137gms .230/.283/.290 51runs 22doubles 2triple 1hr 42rbi 80k 37bb19/20sb
As horrible as Uggla's been, he's better than Minnesota's production, he's not the scrappy 'hit behind the runner' type Gardy must have

Uggla's 6 yr MLB lows
146gms .233/.311/.453(all last yr).... 84runs 22doubles 27HR 82RBI 48bb 171Ks (his high)
Twins have never had a 2B with that type of power production and those are his lows

Seasonal SS numbers
137gms .230/.285/.309 58runs 18doubles 2triples 6hr 48rbi 91k 38bb 12/16sb

joeboo_22
09-07-2012, 10:56 PM
If the Twins didn't have such a bad track record of free agent middle infielders I'd consider it, but I look at it and think, between Dozier, Florimon, Carroll and whoever else is in the system, that going out and paying 3.5 million for another Carroll is a waste of money.

Generally my philosophy is the Twins should avoid spending money on bullpen arms and middle infielders because what they are willing to pay and the type they go after are very similar to those that can be found at AAA.

If you look at many of the Twins numbers they aren't a terrible team, then you look at the starting pitching and its ridiculous and its only somewhat leveled off because guys like DeVries and Deduno are pitching above their talent. And if Gibson is going to be capped at around 100 innings, that could cause even more problems. Walters doesn't look right, so right now the only real guarantee would be Diamond. After that you look at 7-8 guys right now and solid starter isn't anything that is said when describing them.

greengoblinrulz
09-08-2012, 12:22 AM
If the Twins didn't have such a bad track record of free agent middle infielders I'd consider it, but I look at it and think, between Dozier, Florimon, Carroll and whoever else is in the system, that going out and paying 3.5 million for another Carroll is a waste of money.

Generally my philosophy is the Twins should avoid spending money on bullpen arms and middle infielders because what they are willing to pay and the type they go after are very similar to those that can be found at AAA.

If you look at many of the Twins numbers they aren't a terrible team, then you look at the starting pitching and its ridiculous and its only somewhat leveled off because guys like DeVries and Deduno are pitching above their talent. And if Gibson is going to be capped at around 100 innings, that could cause even more problems. Walters doesn't look right, so right now the only real guarantee would be Diamond. After that you look at 7-8 guys right now and solid starter isn't anything that is said when describing them.
Did anyone hear the Gibson 100 innings from Ryan??? I read it earlier & there is no way that I belive its true (misprint of 160 maybe). I heard Ryan say they wanted to get Kyle to around 70 innings THIS year (counting Instr. Lg & AFL).
Still will surprise me if its 160 as they let Liriano get to 200 the first year back. Dont know why they would change philosiphy, but they wont contend next year so its no big deal

kab21
09-08-2012, 05:18 AM
I agree that SP'ing is by far the biggest need but the Twins should absolutely be looking for a MI. I wouldn't mind getting a guy like Scutaro (or MIzturis) for 1/5 + an option. He might be old but he's actually decent compared to anything the Twins have played out there. And he won't have a long deal that could hurt the twins. the problem with addressing MI is that there just isn't much out there.

ALessKosherScott
09-08-2012, 12:53 PM
Should I drink a Brewery Vivant Zaison while watching football?

When you don't have something you really need, it becomes a very easy and rhetorical question.

Brandon
09-08-2012, 01:55 PM
Texas has a CF thats going to be a free agent this offseason and Cruz will be a FA soon so is Napoli. There are several things they can use in a trade. We have lots of OF prospects. How about Arcia and Hermann and Slama for Andrus. My trade ideas may not be the best but you could use Span or Revere in a trade as well.

The Greatest Poster Alive
09-08-2012, 02:02 PM
Texas has a CF thats going to be a free agent this offseason and Cruz will be a FA soon so is Napoli. There are several things they can use in a trade. We have lots of OF prospects. How about Arcia and Hermann and Slama for Andrus. My trade ideas may not be the best but you could use Span or Revere in a trade as well.

Slama will be a minor league free agent. I highly doubt he chooses to stay here.

joeboo_22
09-08-2012, 03:00 PM
If the Twins didn't have such a bad track record of free agent middle infielders I'd consider it, but I look at it and think, between Dozier, Florimon, Carroll and whoever else is in the system, that going out and paying 3.5 million for another Carroll is a waste of money.

Generally my philosophy is the Twins should avoid spending money on bullpen arms and middle infielders because what they are willing to pay and the type they go after are very similar to those that can be found at AAA.

If you look at many of the Twins numbers they aren't a terrible team, then you look at the starting pitching and its ridiculous and its only somewhat leveled off because guys like DeVries and Deduno are pitching above their talent. And if Gibson is going to be capped at around 100 innings, that could cause even more problems. Walters doesn't look right, so right now the only real guarantee would be Diamond. After that you look at 7-8 guys right now and solid starter isn't anything that is said when describing them.
Did anyone hear the Gibson 100 innings from Ryan??? I read it earlier & there is no way that I belive its true (misprint of 160 maybe). I heard Ryan say they wanted to get Kyle to around 70 innings THIS year (counting Instr. Lg & AFL).
Still will surprise me if its 160 as they let Liriano get to 200 the first year back. Dont know why they would change philosiphy, but they wont contend next year so its no big deal

On the radio he said (or the assistant gm) 20-25% increase from this year to next year. that would put it right around 100IP if he gets to that 70IP area. That is why they are sending him to instructional ball, and the Arizona Fall League.

joeboo_22
09-08-2012, 03:00 PM
Texas has a CF thats going to be a free agent this offseason and Cruz will be a FA soon so is Napoli. There are several things they can use in a trade. We have lots of OF prospects. How about Arcia and Hermann and Slama for Andrus. My trade ideas may not be the best but you could use Span or Revere in a trade as well.

Slama will be a minor league free agent. I highly doubt he chooses to stay here.

I don't think he is, not until next year, but he will be rule 5 draft eligible.

greengoblinrulz
09-08-2012, 04:03 PM
If the Twins didn't have such a bad track record of free agent middle infielders I'd consider it, but I look at it and think, between Dozier, Florimon, Carroll and whoever else is in the system, that going out and paying 3.5 million for another Carroll is a waste of money.

Generally my philosophy is the Twins should avoid spending money on bullpen arms and middle infielders because what they are willing to pay and the type they go after are very similar to those that can be found at AAA.

If you look at many of the Twins numbers they aren't a terrible team, then you look at the starting pitching and its ridiculous and its only somewhat leveled off because guys like DeVries and Deduno are pitching above their talent. And if Gibson is going to be capped at around 100 innings, that could cause even more problems. Walters doesn't look right, so right now the only real guarantee would be Diamond. After that you look at 7-8 guys right now and solid starter isn't anything that is said when describing them.
Did anyone hear the Gibson 100 innings from Ryan??? I read it earlier & there is no way that I belive its true (misprint of 160 maybe). I heard Ryan say they wanted to get Kyle to around 70 innings THIS year (counting Instr. Lg & AFL).
Still will surprise me if its 160 as they let Liriano get to 200 the first year back. Dont know why they would change philosiphy, but they wont contend next year so its no big deal

On the radio he said (or the assistant gm) 20-25% increase from this year to next year. that would put it right around 100IP if he gets to that 70IP area. That is why they are sending him to instructional ball, and the Arizona Fall League.
they use the 20/25% rule on minor league pitchers & relievers transfering to starters....but if they do this with Gibson, they will finally show everyone else how incompetant the front office/medical staff truly is. Wash is getting heat by bein conservative with Stras by only letting him get back to 170innings. Never heard of a team limiting a starter to that few innings after the surgery IF they are gonna start him.

Paul
09-08-2012, 07:02 PM
Short answer...yes. I'm a firm believer in the "strong up the middle" mantra. And I know firsthand how a lockdown confident SS (Hardy)contributes far far more to the team than the stats might indicate. If the Rangers can be motivated to put Andrus in play I feel the Twins should pay whatever the market demands.

This should probably be posted with its own heading in a blog post or other such thing, but I don't know how to do that on here, so I'd like to take this opportunity and express my gratitude to the TD proprietors and all the commenters. The last 2 years the Twins relevance to my life has dropped quite a bit. I watched maybe 20 games last year and went to just a few. This year I don't think I've watched 6 on TV and have been to 2. I don't believe I'm unique in this. The little baseball info I seek I get from the MLB network supplemented by what I get here. The depth of understanding and general intelligence level of the writers and commenters on the site is far supeior to any other place I know of. And I thank you all.

mgraves
09-09-2012, 12:03 PM
The Twins have to many options at ss already, what will you do with them if not given a chance to play, The Twins young SP have look
good, maybe a vet like Guthrie and or Liriaro is all they need.

Since Liriano has been pitching for Chicago, his ERA is 5.09 (ERA+ 86), his K:BB ratio is 1.56:1, he's averaging five innings a start, and has a WHIP of 1.648. That is terrible.

Liriano's last two years have set him up for a buy-low, incentive laden, one year contract. He's someone you take a flyer on to fill out a rotation when you've got four established starters (or your rotation is terrible and you're willing to pray he can eat some innings), and you want a low-risk contract, possibly high reward performance. Liriano is not a sure thing. He's had two good years (half of 2006 and half of 2008, and 2010) in his six year major league career.

If you're under the impression that a back end starter like Guthrie or Liriano is going to turn around the starting staff, then you're mildly delusion, to put it mildly.

Brock Beauchamp
09-09-2012, 12:07 PM
This should probably be posted with its own heading in a blog post or other such thing, but I don't know how to do that on here, so I'd like to take this opportunity and express my gratitude to the TD proprietors and all the commenters. The last 2 years the Twins relevance to my life has dropped quite a bit. I watched maybe 20 games last year and went to just a few. This year I don't think I've watched 6 on TV and have been to 2. I don't believe I'm unique in this. The little baseball info I seek I get from the MLB network supplemented by what I get here. The depth of understanding and general intelligence level of the writers and commenters on the site is far supeior to any other place I know of. And I thank you all.

Glad you enjoy the site. As a former California native, I know how it feels to be completely removed from your favorite baseball team. It's great to have sites like this one to find information that even local radio and television doesn't cover in any kind of meaningful fashion.

TheLeviathan
09-09-2012, 12:50 PM
Since Liriano has been pitching for Chicago, his ERA is 5.09 (ERA+ 86), his K:BB ratio is 1.56:1, he's averaging five innings a start, and has a WHIP of 1.648. That is terrible.

[insanity] Yeah but he's an ACE!!!!! Lock him up for 3/30!!!! [/ insanity]