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View Full Version : Article: These Call-Ups Are a Downer



Nick Nelson
09-04-2012, 08:37 PM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?1009-These-Call-Ups-Are-a-Downer

Thrylos
09-04-2012, 08:49 PM
one of the rate times I fully agree with something you write. Scary...

One comment:

As opposed to guys like Jim Hoey, Dusty Hughes and Jeff Gray, who were given plenty of leash in the majors despite their predictable struggles.

here is a list of immortals who got more innings in the majors with the Twins than Slama the last 4 seasons (in addition to the 3 aforementioned) :

Phil Dumatrait
Bobby Keppel
Ron Mahay
Matt Maloney
Jeff Manship
Sean Henn

clutterheart
09-04-2012, 08:57 PM
Ryan has always been conservative so I am not shocked that Hicks and Arcia were not given an opportunity.
It sends a signal to me that Ryan does not plan to trade Span, Revere or Willingham in the offseason. Instead I think they expect to start the year with Hicks and Arcia at AAA. If Ryan was planning on trading one of those guys, they might have called these guys up to give them a taste.

Slama is just a big headscatcher to me. I am sure that he beat up Toby and stole his lunch money in the minors. Toby cried to Gardy and Slama wouldn't give the money back despite Gardy calling Slama's parents.

nicksaviking
09-04-2012, 09:17 PM
Can we add Cole De Vries to the list of pitchers lacking stuff? Just about every article written on the guy prefaces his accomplishments with a line about how he has gotten to the big leagues despite having absolutely no decent pitches.

Perhaps his Minnesota roots are reason enough to overlook his lack of qualifications.

silverslugger
09-04-2012, 09:22 PM
Thank you for stating so eloquently what many of us have been thinking Nick.

Bark's Lounge
09-04-2012, 09:39 PM
Much props Nick. Starting in June you started to see people giving comments on looking forward to the Twins September call-ups. This is not a slap in the face, but a nasty upper cut to the chops. (sigh)

mike wants wins
09-04-2012, 09:47 PM
The disgusting part is that crummy pitchers with bad track records can do well in September, tricking the GM into thinking he doesn't need to go get pitchers. I hope Slama is cut free from this organization, and dominates them every single day of his career. I really do.

JB_Iowa
09-04-2012, 09:48 PM
I hope this is the TD column in the Strib. Nice job Nick.

Rick Niedermann
09-04-2012, 09:56 PM
Outstanding article. Also glad to see so many Twins fans are well informed and know when a player gets the shaft like Slama did. We deserve better from the Twins after the lousy product they have put on the field the last two years. And Slama deserved better too after having an outstanding minor league career thus far. I wish him the best and hope he is picked up Via Rule 5. And I like Mike wants Wins will hope he makes Terry Ryan take notice everytime he pitches against us. This won't go away Mr. Ryan. We the fans have lost a great deal of respect for you.

joeboo_22
09-04-2012, 10:00 PM
The move I don't get is Guerra, its like why not? Lets see what he has, I can already see the Twins next spring, deciding to bring him North because he is out of options, not having a clue what he has, or losing him trying to send him down because they don't know if he is ready. Well jesus, make a damn decision on the guy. Is he the top prospect we were all promised in the Johan trade? no, but lets at least see what he has for ourselves. And the same can go with Slama,

Bark's Lounge
09-04-2012, 10:01 PM
I hope this is the TD column in the Strib. Nice job Nick.

That makes 2 of us!

Dilligaf69
09-04-2012, 10:02 PM
I don't think Hicks or Arcia not being called up has anything to do with Span...I still think it's very likely he gets traded this offseason.

Mchans24
09-04-2012, 10:17 PM
If Im Hicks or Arcia, Im pissed that I didnt get rewarded for an outstanding season. TR, call them up for nothing more than to spend time with some big leaguers buddy.

glunn
09-04-2012, 10:23 PM
This is a great article. Don't be surprised if Slama ends up doing a great job for some OTHER team next year. If that happens, it will be 100% on Ryan's head.

Are the Twins being cheap here, because they don't want to pay the callups? Maybe the fans should respond by being too cheap to go to the games?

greengoblinrulz
09-04-2012, 10:34 PM
This is a great article. Don't be surprised if Slama ends up doing a great job for some OTHER team next year. If that happens, it will be 100% on Ryan's head.

Are the Twins being cheap here, because they don't want to pay the callups? Maybe the fans should respond by being too cheap to go to the games?

100% correct, nothing else.
They are the cheapest organization in baseball that operates with a 90-100m payroll. We will eventually hear that payroll is being cut as attendance is down (because the play is so bad).
Not a single excuse the team makes about playing time, earning the promotion have anything to do with it....purely about paying these extra guys in Sept.
Cant wait till we resign Carl Pavano to be the staff ace. Its gonna happen

mikes_madness
09-04-2012, 10:43 PM
I completly agree with the comment on Arcia not being called up. I mean he is our future and his numbers are call up worthy. Since we are on the subject of Slama, lets talk about the pitching. The twins could use some help on the back end. Take a look at Pugh's numbers in AA. Very consistant and simlilar year to Slama's. Both of these guys are two guys that could pitch in Minnesota now. What are they waiting for?

clutterheart
09-04-2012, 11:34 PM
Take a look at Pugh's numbers in AA. Very consistant and simlilar year to Slama's. Both of these guys are two guys that could pitch in Minnesota now. What are they waiting for?

Pugh is a different case.
He was tried at AA last year a few times and failed but it was his first full year as a bullpen guy so there was an adjustment. He came in this year and had his first good stats at AA. He threw a no hitter a few years ago as a starter so he could be a good pitcher at some point. But for now I am happy for him to stay at AA.
Slama has been doing it for years. It doesn't mean Slama will be any good, but he seems to have earned his chance to at least show the Organization what he has.

Shane Wahl
09-05-2012, 01:06 AM
Great article. It defies reason and demonstrates a lack of intelligent GMing (and so forth . . . to whomever is involved in influencing these kinds of decisions). Goddamn, start Hicks with Revere in the OF for a few games and imagine Span there too. Or if Span comes back in the second half of this month, start all three. That WOULD be entertaining.

Furthermore, why risk injury to Morneau or Doumit? Call up Arcia.

Why use innings on Burton, Duensing, and Perkins, the three guaranteed anchors in the 2013 bullpen? Use Guerra, Slama, and Waldrop there. It's as though they are still concerned about 2012 somehow. Jamey Carroll started tonight. Why? Escobar-Florimon would have been worth a look.

phalvorson
09-05-2012, 08:40 AM
I'll leave the pitching discussion to you guys for now...

In the OF, I think Span is shut down for the season. He might make a token appearrance right before the end, just to show that he's healthy, so he can be used as trade bait in the off-season for starting pitching. I don't think that Morneau is going to be traded to make room for Parmalee, like everyone seems to assume. I think the Parmalee experiment right now in RF is what TR hopes to make the permanent solution, then Span is the one he really wants to trade. Revere moves to CF. Mastroianni (sp?) is the 4th OF next year. And that's how it stays, with Willingham in LF. I do, however, think that Morneau will be traded next season near the trade deadline, or allowed to leave at the end of 2013 for draft pick compensation. At that point, Mauer and Doumit and Parmalee will take turns rotating between 1B, RF, & Catcher (except Parmalee at the latter position, obviously). It's the ideal platoon scenario for TR, to save Mauer's knees and give everybody at-bats and playing time.

nokomismod
09-05-2012, 09:26 AM
Good post Nick. I too am dissapointed we didn't see Slama and Guerra, but could understand leaving Hicks and Arcia off.
I feel like most of the season has been a September call up so I am not as dissapointed as others are here.

Shane Wahl
09-05-2012, 09:44 AM
I'll leave the pitching discussion to you guys for now...

In the OF, I think Span is shut down for the season. He might make a token appearrance right before the end, just to show that he's healthy, so he can be used as trade bait in the off-season for starting pitching. I don't think that Morneau is going to be traded to make room for Parmalee, like everyone seems to assume. I think the Parmalee experiment right now in RF is what TR hopes to make the permanent solution, then Span is the one he really wants to trade. Revere moves to CF. Mastroianni (sp?) is the 4th OF next year. And that's how it stays, with Willingham in LF. I do, however, think that Morneau will be traded next season near the trade deadline, or allowed to leave at the end of 2013 for draft pick compensation. At that point, Mauer and Doumit and Parmalee will take turns rotating between 1B, RF, & Catcher (except Parmalee at the latter position, obviously). It's the ideal platoon scenario for TR, to save Mauer's knees and give everybody at-bats and playing time.


You are possibly very right, and that is distressing. That OF will be significantly below average. I just don't get it. Why not ship Morneau?

Curt
09-05-2012, 10:18 AM
Thanks for the article Nick. I agree with you. As far as Slama goes, what does a guy have to do? What kind of signal does it send to others in the organization? That results do not matter? I don't know if Slama would succeed at the top level but he has earned a shot. When I think of all the deadbeats (nice guys... family men, I'm sure) we have seen, I just do not get it. Not giving Slama a change at the MLB level is an unfathomable oversight.

mgraves
09-05-2012, 10:38 AM
Can we add Cole De Vries to the list of pitchers lacking stuff? Just about every article written on the guy prefaces his accomplishments with a line about how he has gotten to the big leagues despite having absolutely no decent pitches.

Perhaps his Minnesota roots are reason enough to overlook his lack of qualifications.

He was called up in May and made three starts, going five innings each time, and then was sent down. Since he was called back up at the end of June he's made 12 starts, of which six of them have been quality starts. He strikes out more than six per nine (tops among current Twins starters). He has been inexplicably serviceable, but on a terrible team, he's one of the best options. That is why he's starting.

DAM DC Twins Fans
09-05-2012, 11:03 AM
I'll leave the pitching discussion to you guys for now...

In the OF, I think Span is shut down for the season. He might make a token appearrance right before the end, just to show that he's healthy, so he can be used as trade bait in the off-season for starting pitching. I don't think that Morneau is going to be traded to make room for Parmalee, like everyone seems to assume. I think the Parmalee experiment right now in RF is what TR hopes to make the permanent solution, then Span is the one he really wants to trade. Revere moves to CF. Mastroianni (sp?) is the 4th OF next year. And that's how it stays, with Willingham in LF. I do, however, think that Morneau will be traded next season near the trade deadline, or allowed to leave at the end of 2013 for draft pick compensation. At that point, Mauer and Doumit and Parmalee will take turns rotating between 1B, RF, & Catcher (except Parmalee at the latter position, obviously). It's the ideal platoon scenario for TR, to save Mauer's knees and give everybody at-bats and playing time.

Some good points...scary too if you are right...why not play Parmalee at 1B?? Why put him in RF when he is a natural at 1B?? Is Ryan going to shop Justin?? The Twins are OF heavy with Span, Revere, Josh (one of whom will go this season) Mastroanni (?sp), Doumit and Hicks, Benson etc. on the way. Yes call up Hicks and Arcia and give them a taste. Call up Dozier too--try the Florimon/Dozier DP combo. We should be building a team that will contend in 2014 starting right now.

StormJH1
09-05-2012, 11:07 AM
I really hope the "cheapness" aspect doesn't play into it. I don't think there's a ton of evidence for that since the younger Pohlads took over. The payroll has hovered around the 10th to 15th range in MLB, despite the fact the team hasn't won a single playoff series since 2002. And it's such a nominal amount of money compared to running the overall operation.

Question: Does calling up a Hicks or Arcia start up their service time clock for arbitration/future salary purposes? I know that's a big deal for calling up guys prior to May 1st or June 1st, but I haven't heard that being discussed for September call-ups.

I don't understand what we're doing if we don't call up at least a few of those guys. Think about how differently Parmelee gets viewed in the offseason if he didn't have the opportunity to come up in September and hit like he did. Yes, he got off to a slow start this year, but now he looks to be every bit a part of our plans going forward. We need these guys SOON, not later, and I don't understand the downside to giving them a taste of what is expected of them later on.

In the case of Guerra, why the heck not? The guy was in the Santana deal prior to the 2008 season, and still hasn't seen an inning of garbage time in the bigs heading into 2013.

spycake
09-05-2012, 12:14 PM
My Slama theory:

The Twins plan to add him to the 40-man roster after the season and bring him to spring training next year (or else trade him).

However, the same cannot be said for Perdomo, Vasquez, Waldrop, and Walters (and perhaps others).

So, they figure it is best to use those guys in September to figure out who is getting cut, and let Slama rest. (The same theory can be applied to Guerra, more or less.)

In regards to the one open spot on the 40-man roster, I suspect they want to keep some flexibility in case an interesting player comes across the waiver wire.

Is this how I would approach things? Probably not. I would have called up Slama some time ago, I'm sure. But at this juncture, it's not a terrible strategy, considering how meaningless these September games are.

If we expose him to the Rule 5 draft, or otherwise lose him for nothing or virtually nothing, then I will be first in line to complain. But I'm willing to give TR a little more benefit of the doubt yet.

(One hole in my theory is why Manship wasn't recalled. Hopefully they are just waiting for the right moment to sneak him through waivers.)

nokomismod
09-05-2012, 01:06 PM
I'll leave the pitching discussion to you guys for now...

In the OF, I think Span is shut down for the season. He might make a token appearrance right before the end, just to show that he's healthy, so he can be used as trade bait in the off-season for starting pitching. I don't think that Morneau is going to be traded to make room for Parmalee, like everyone seems to assume. I think the Parmalee experiment right now in RF is what TR hopes to make the permanent solution, then Span is the one he really wants to trade. Revere moves to CF. Mastroianni (sp?) is the 4th OF next year. And that's how it stays, with Willingham in LF. I do, however, think that Morneau will be traded next season near the trade deadline, or allowed to leave at the end of 2013 for draft pick compensation. At that point, Mauer and Doumit and Parmalee will take turns rotating between 1B, RF, & Catcher (except Parmalee at the latter position, obviously). It's the ideal platoon scenario for TR, to save Mauer's knees and give everybody at-bats and playing time.


You are possibly very right, and that is distressing. That OF will be significantly below average. I just don't get it. Why not ship Morneau?
I think the Twins have some good options this offseason due to Revere's emergence and Parmalee's potential. Span and/or Morneau can be dealt to acquire pitching. If Span is dealt, I think we would could see either Hicks or Arcia starting next season for the Twins.

ashburyjohn
09-05-2012, 01:29 PM
I think the Parmalee experiment right now in RF is what TR hopes to make the permanent solution

As I understand it, Parmelee didn't play one inning in the outfield at Rochester. If RF is Ryan's hope (soap opera pun unintended but acknowledged :) ) for Parm, does he have no influence on the lineups in AAA?

mikes_madness
09-05-2012, 01:32 PM
Pugh didnt have a good year last year but like you said that was his first year in the bullpen. look at his numbers prior to last year and his number in AA were outstanding this year. He should have had a promotion to AAA, but with New Britain being in the hunt for playoff's i understand that. Pugh was the go to guy this year in AA and got it done. I am a big fan and his work ethic. He should for sure be on the 40 man this season. I like Hicks dont get me wrong but he shouldnt be a September call up. This was his first season putting up good numbers. He didnt have good numbers before this season he had a very slow start and got dominated the first month in the fall league. He should be putting numbers up llike this year hes a first rounder and the Twins paid him enough to do so.

ashburyjohn
09-05-2012, 01:37 PM
In regards to the one open spot on the 40-man roster

Tangentially, how can a last-place team have any issues at all managing their 40-man roster? Just sooooo many talented players, the other teams will scoop one right up if the Twins aren't careful?

Indecisiveness, that's the reason. Morneau, will he or won't he return to previous levels? Span, can we squeeze just a bit more out of a trade? Middle infielders, so many flashy-glove no-stick players to choose from, better hang onto a bunch and see if one steps forward.

Meanwhile, at least, the scouts and front-office can make up their minds about Slama not being able to translate AAA success to the majors.

A forty-man roster is intended to be a bit of a headache for the "have" teams. Not the have-nots.

Paul
09-05-2012, 03:08 PM
I've seen the word "cheapness" used, a few times on this thread, to describe the Twins FO in their handling of the opportunity of Sept callups. I think the word "frugality" would be more accurate. I don't know exactly how the math shakes out but, it would be some where around an $80,000, + expenses, investment per man for a 1 month look.. Their fiduciary responsibility as managers dictates that they look at investments and judge their viability intelligently and act accordingly. No matter who you are... 90 grand is 90 grand.

I agree with those that have commented that there is more to the Slama situation than we can see from our vantage point. It appears irresponsible based on what we know and can see. But reason tells us that that may not be the case, and there is an element, or elements, we are not privy to.

mike wants wins
09-05-2012, 03:18 PM
I think the point is that these callups do nothing to male us hopeful about next year. Another year of no impacts coming up.

Paul
09-05-2012, 03:37 PM
I think the point is that these callups do nothing to male us hopeful about next year. Another year of no impacts coming up.

Maybe the FO has this in mind. How would you feel if they brought up Slama, Hicks, Arcia and Dozier and they all proceeded to stumble around?

Montecore
09-05-2012, 03:47 PM
Slama must not have laughed when Gardenhire kicked a cat or something. I wish him the best with a better organization.

TheLeviathan
09-05-2012, 05:23 PM
This just stinks of another player getting Slowey'd. I guess well have a new description for it that rolls off the tongue a bit better.

TiberTwins
09-05-2012, 06:02 PM
Slama is just a big headscatcher to me. I am sure that he beat up Toby and stole his lunch money in the minors. Toby cried to Gardy and Slama wouldn't give the money back despite Gardy calling Slama's parents.

This is the quote of the thread! Totally right on the money. Somewhere Slama did (or didn't) do something that pissed off a person to keep him from being called up. Well spoken Clutterheart.

USAFChief
09-05-2012, 07:02 PM
I think the point is that these callups do nothing to male us hopeful about next year. Another year of no impacts coming up.

Maybe the FO has this in mind. How would you feel if they brought up Slama, Hicks, Arcia and Dozier and they all proceeded to stumble around?

The front office is afraid to have prospects around?

YourHouseIsMyHouse
09-05-2012, 07:29 PM
Guerra isn't going to be a great player and he hasn't earned anything. Let's not include him on the same level as Anthony Super Slama. LET THE KIDS PLAY!!!

Paul
09-06-2012, 11:28 AM
I think the point is that these callups do nothing to male us hopeful about next year. Another year of no impacts coming up.

Maybe the FO has this in mind. How would you feel if they brought up Slama, Hicks, Arcia and Dozier and they all proceeded to stumble around?

The front office is afraid to have prospects around?

What did I say to make you infer this?

Based on my prior comment, I was trying to imply that the FO had analyzed the promotion of the guys the "fans' wanted called up and had judged the promotions to be an unsound investment. Specifically, that the guys would be so overmatched at the ML level that any uptick in fan spending, coupled with the modest furthering of the prospects' careers, would not offset the cash outlay.

Rosterman
09-06-2012, 12:40 PM
I just had a thought. Slama was on the 40-man in 2010 and 2011. If the Twins added him this year...they would eat up a year. Because of injury, Slama basically played himself,out of an early opportunity to join the bullpen, compared to some others (doesn't explain Guerra) that the Twins wish to make decisions on for next season (Manship, Waldrop and any number of free agents). But the Twins CAN add Slama to the 2013 40-man roster, and still have not just one, but two more seasons of up-and-downs options with the pitcher. So, like the decision on Hicks and others, they are waiting until they need to sort out the 40-man in November. Considering the number of guys on the bubble, this is a meeting I would love to be, when the time comes. It also allowed them to have a spot to do another Gray/Maloney/Vasquez/Florimon pickup in this final month of the season.

ashburyjohn
09-06-2012, 01:14 PM
I just had a thought. Slama was on the 40-man in 2010 and 2011. If the Twins added him this year...they would eat up a year. Because of injury, Slama basically played himself,out of an early opportunity to join the bullpen

If that was the FO reasoning, wouldn't Terry Ryan probably just have said so, instead of the oblique remarks about the quality of his stuff?