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Nick Nelson
08-28-2012, 11:13 PM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?975-Beacons-of-Light

OldManWinter
08-29-2012, 12:08 AM
Positive vibes with Ryan steering now.

jokin
08-29-2012, 12:46 AM
"A person could hardly be blamed for not being sold on Parmelee's "breakout" last year, which involved a fairly solid second half in Rochester and a great final month with the Twins."

Parmelee played all season with New Britain last year.

jokin
08-29-2012, 12:48 AM
Positive vibes with Ryan steering now.

Steering with a "more than adequate" payroll (his very words) and apparently no need to upgrade the pitching staff with trades or FAs..... just bring back Pavano and Baker and yup, all's well with TR steering the boat.

IdahoPilgrim
08-29-2012, 08:34 AM
Steering with a "more than adequate" payroll (his very words) and apparently no need to upgrade the pitching staff with trades or FAs..... just bring back Pavano and Baker and yup, all's well with TR steering the boat.

I read the interview in the Star-Tribune too, and to be fair to him that's not what he said. He is all too aware the pitching staff needs improvement, and he specifically said that trades, FA, and internal development will all have to be part of the picture. He is not ruling out resigning Pavano and Baker, but he is not ruling out much else either, with the exception of going after an "elite FA" because of contract concerns, and personally I agree with him on that.

JB_Iowa
08-29-2012, 09:00 AM
I'm glad that you still remain hopeful, Nick. I went back and re-read your article from June 20 entitled "Reasons For Hope" where you basically said that this team was on track except for the starting pitching -- and I re-read the comments.

I suspect that in the last 2 months many of the attitudes haven't changed much. The people who think that the Twns are only a starting staff (2-4 starting pitchers changed) away from contending probably still feel that. The people who thought that Ryan needed to trade 1 or more of Span, Morneau and Willingham probably still think that. The pessimists like me probably still think that the management of this organization (field staff and front office) needs a major injection of enthusiasm, energy, talent and new ideas. (I would guess, though, that the size of the pessimist's club has increased somewhat in the last couple of months).

I don't really disagree with any of your "beacons of hope" specifically. I think the return to health is hopeful -- but the fact that the Twins have been pretty healthy and still have an abysmal record is not. I'm encouraged by Parmelee's and Plouffe's emergence -- I just hope that they don't regress as we've seen some players do in the past. I think that even last year, most of us thought that the depth in the outfield was a strength for the team -- the names have changed but not the basic belief that this is a strength of the organization.

The problem for me is that these "Beacons of Hope" aren't enough to convince me that next year will be anything but mediocre (if it even rises to that level). Unless some changes are made in management personnel and in the organization's approach, I just foresee more stagnancy.

Winston Smith
08-29-2012, 09:07 AM
I'm glad that you still remain hopeful, Nick. I went back and re-read your article from June 20 entitled "Reasons For Hope" where you basically said that this team was on track except for the starting pitching -- and I re-read the comments.

I suspect that in the last 2 months many of the attitudes haven't changed much. The people who think that the Twns are only a starting staff (2-4 starting pitchers changed) away from contending probably still feel that. The people who thought that Ryan needed to trade 1 or more of Span, Morneau and Willingham probably still think that. The pessimists like me probably still think that the management of this organization (field staff and front office) needs a major injection of enthusiasm, energy, talent and new ideas. (I would guess, though, that the size of the pessimist's club has increased somewhat in the last couple of months).

I don't really disagree with any of your "beacons of hope" specifically. I think the return to health is hopeful -- but the fact that the Twins have been pretty healthy and still have an abysmal record is not. I'm encouraged by Parmelee's and Plouffe's emergence -- I just hope that they don't regress as we've seen some players do in the past. I think that even last year, most of us thought that the depth in the outfield was a strength for the team -- the names have changed but not the basic belief that this is a strength of the organization.

The problem for me is that these "Beacons of Hope" aren't enough to convince me that next year will be anything but mediocre (if it even rises to that level). Unless some changes are made in management personnel and in the organization's approach, I just foresee more stagnancy.

​+++++

jokin
08-29-2012, 12:10 PM
Steering with a "more than adequate" payroll (his very words) and apparently no need to upgrade the pitching staff with trades or FAs..... just bring back Pavano and Baker and yup, all's well with TR steering the boat.

I read the interview in the Star-Tribune too, and to be fair to him that's not what he said. He is all too aware the pitching staff needs improvement, and he specifically said that trades, FA, and internal development will all have to be part of the picture. He is not ruling out resigning Pavano and Baker, but he is not ruling out much else either, with the exception of going after an "elite FA" because of contract concerns, and personally I agree with him on that.



Except that is exactly what he said:

Souhan: "Do you feel a responsibility to get this organization back on its feet?"

Ryan: "Absolutely. Totally. This is a team I believe in, and I'm at the helm. Our injuries have been less than those of most teams. The payroll is more than adequate. We've just got to get it right. I take responsibility for all of it. Even when it comes to injuries to the pitching staff during the season, you've got to be able to fix some of those things on the fly........"You have to be open to a lot of things when you're looking for starting pitching," he said. "You've going to have to take some risks and you're going to have to look at all markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s. But if you want to do it the correct way, that's going to provide stability over the long haul, you're going to have to draft and develop guys, too."

"trades" Nope
"waiver" Nope
" draft and develop guys" Nope
"Rule 5s" Yup, one.....Is this how you reach the Pitching Promised Land? Really???
"Free Agency" Nope... given Marquis, et al, do we really want to go there?
"You've got to be able to fix things on the fly" Definitely Nope, Ryan's demonstrated a concerted Fear of Flying this season, coupled with the fact that there has been no Plan B since the team began the transition to the new ballpark, and they totally screwed up Plan A from square one by not building a team geared for success in Target Field (taking a ground ball- line drive- lefty bat warning track power-hitting team coupled with a team full of retread/hasbeen/never were SPs was a recipe for long-term failure)

Ultima Ratio
08-29-2012, 02:24 PM
7. Jeff Gray was outrighted

Riverbrian
08-29-2012, 02:58 PM
More power to you... Nick Nelson.

The Record may be a hair worse this year but it feels better. There are times when they look like a baseball team.

We need... Pitching... Pitching... Pitching... For the Future.

silverslugger
08-29-2012, 05:45 PM
One could argue that health has been a major factor this season. Many people, not necessarily myself, thought the starting rotation might be a strength of the team this season. Baker gone for the season, Pavano gone for almost all of the season, Zumaya not making it past day two of spring training, Morneau not being Morneau until the all star break, Matt Capps missing most of the season, and Plouffe missing a month. It wasn't last year and it might not be more than the typical team, but how many teams can overcome losing their 1,2 or 2,3 starters (what was Liriano?) as well as their iopening day closer? Only those with $$$ to throw around or a top notch minor league system. The Twins didn't have either this year.

Oxtung
08-29-2012, 11:49 PM
Steering with a "more than adequate" payroll (his very words) and apparently no need to upgrade the pitching staff with trades or FAs..... just bring back Pavano and Baker and yup, all's well with TR steering the boat.

I read the interview in the Star-Tribune too, and to be fair to him that's not what he said. He is all too aware the pitching staff needs improvement, and he specifically said that trades, FA, and internal development will all have to be part of the picture. He is not ruling out resigning Pavano and Baker, but he is not ruling out much else either, with the exception of going after an "elite FA" because of contract concerns, and personally I agree with him on that.



Except that is exactly what he said:

Souhan: "Do you feel a responsibility to get this organization back on its feet?"

Ryan: "Absolutely. Totally. This is a team I believe in, and I'm at the helm. Our injuries have been less than those of most teams. The payroll is more than adequate. We've just got to get it right. I take responsibility for all of it. Even when it comes to injuries to the pitching staff during the season, you've got to be able to fix some of those things on the fly........"You have to be open to a lot of things when you're looking for starting pitching," he said. "You've going to have to take some risks and you're going to have to look at all markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s. But if you want to do it the correct way, that's going to provide stability over the long haul, you're going to have to draft and develop guys, too."

"trades" Nope
"waiver" Nope
" draft and develop guys" Nope
"Rule 5s" Yup, one.....Is this how you reach the Pitching Promised Land? Really???
"Free Agency" Nope... given Marquis, et al, do we really want to go there?
"You've got to be able to fix things on the fly" Definitely Nope, Ryan's demonstrated a concerted Fear of Flying this season, coupled with the fact that there has been no Plan B since the team began the transition to the new ballpark, and they totally screwed up Plan A from square one by not building a team geared for success in Target Field (taking a ground ball- line drive- lefty bat warning track power-hitting team coupled with a team full of retread/hasbeen/never were SPs was a recipe for long-term failure)

SBKnudson has it pretty much spot on. Ryan says, "you're going to have to look at all markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s. ... you're going to have to draft and develop guys, too." Not sure where the confusion is coming from. He clearly states that other than "elite free agent pitchers" everything is on the table.

CDog
08-29-2012, 11:50 PM
Steering with a "more than adequate" payroll (his very words) and apparently no need to upgrade the pitching staff with trades or FAs..... just bring back Pavano and Baker and yup, all's well with TR steering the boat.

I read the interview in the Star-Tribune too, and to be fair to him that's not what he said. He is all too aware the pitching staff needs improvement, and he specifically said that trades, FA, and internal development will all have to be part of the picture. He is not ruling out resigning Pavano and Baker, but he is not ruling out much else either, with the exception of going after an "elite FA" because of contract concerns, and personally I agree with him on that.



Except that is exactly what he said:

Souhan: "Do you feel a responsibility to get this organization back on its feet?"

Ryan: "Absolutely. Totally. This is a team I believe in, and I'm at the helm. Our injuries have been less than those of most teams. The payroll is more than adequate. We've just got to get it right. I take responsibility for all of it. Even when it comes to injuries to the pitching staff during the season, you've got to be able to fix some of those things on the fly........"You have to be open to a lot of things when you're looking for starting pitching," he said. "You've going to have to take some risks and you're going to have to look at all markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s. But if you want to do it the correct way, that's going to provide stability over the long haul, you're going to have to draft and develop guys, too."

"trades" Nope
"waiver" Nope
" draft and develop guys" Nope
"Rule 5s" Yup, one.....Is this how you reach the Pitching Promised Land? Really???
"Free Agency" Nope... given Marquis, et al, do we really want to go there?
"You've got to be able to fix things on the fly" Definitely Nope, Ryan's demonstrated a concerted Fear of Flying this season, coupled with the fact that there has been no Plan B since the team began the transition to the new ballpark, and they totally screwed up Plan A from square one by not building a team geared for success in Target Field (taking a ground ball- line drive- lefty bat warning track power-hitting team coupled with a team full of retread/hasbeen/never were SPs was a recipe for long-term failure)

So you make the claim that Ryan implied there was "no need to upgrade the pitching staff with trades or FAs"...then go back to the claim saying it's "exactly what he said"....and prove it with a quote where he says the opposite? That was sorta weird.

jokin
08-30-2012, 01:23 AM
Steering with a "more than adequate" payroll (his very words) and apparently no need to upgrade the pitching staff with trades or FAs..... just bring back Pavano and Baker and yup, all's well with TR steering the boat.

I read the interview in the Star-Tribune too, and to be fair to him that's not what he said. He is all too aware the pitching staff needs improvement, and he specifically said that trades, FA, and internal development will all have to be part of the picture. He is not ruling out resigning Pavano and Baker, but he is not ruling out much else either, with the exception of going after an "elite FA" because of contract concerns, and personally I agree with him on that.



Except that is exactly what he said:

Souhan: "Do you feel a responsibility to get this organization back on its feet?"

Ryan: "Absolutely. Totally. This is a team I believe in, and I'm at the helm. Our injuries have been less than those of most teams. The payroll is more than adequate. We've just got to get it right. I take responsibility for all of it. Even when it comes to injuries to the pitching staff during the season, you've got to be able to fix some of those things on the fly........"You have to be open to a lot of things when you're looking for starting pitching," he said. "You've going to have to take some risks and you're going to have to look at all markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s. But if you want to do it the correct way, that's going to provide stability over the long haul, you're going to have to draft and develop guys, too."

"trades" Nope
"waiver" Nope
" draft and develop guys" Nope
"Rule 5s" Yup, one.....Is this how you reach the Pitching Promised Land? Really???
"Free Agency" Nope... given Marquis, et al, do we really want to go there?
"You've got to be able to fix things on the fly" Definitely Nope, Ryan's demonstrated a concerted Fear of Flying this season, coupled with the fact that there has been no Plan B since the team began the transition to the new ballpark, and they totally screwed up Plan A from square one by not building a team geared for success in Target Field (taking a ground ball- line drive- lefty bat warning track power-hitting team coupled with a team full of retread/hasbeen/never were SPs was a recipe for long-term failure)

So you make the claim that Ryan implied there was "no need to upgrade the pitching staff with trades or FAs"...then go back to the claim saying it's "exactly what he said"....and prove it with a quote where he says the opposite? That was sorta weird.

I'm trying to remember which trades and waiver deals Ryan has made to "fix some of those thing on the fly"........

Nick Nelson
08-30-2012, 01:42 AM
I'm trying to remember which trades and waiver deals Ryan has made to "fix some of those thing on the fly"........
Did you miss the part where he indicted himself and took the blame? I don't think even he would disagree with your assessments of his actions (or lack thereof) within "all markets" up to this point, but that doesn't mean he can't get better. Last offseason he was guilty of being too confident in what he had. He won't make that same mistake again this winter.

birdwatcher
08-30-2012, 10:11 AM
Nick, that's precisely correct. Ryan admitted his failure to fix things on the fly. But that's not enough for Souhan and others, who will manipulate his comments to support their own conclusions. Apparently, jokin, you are quick at emulating.


Again, Ryan never said he's going to fix the rotation simply by signing Baker and Pavano. That's what Souhan and jokin would like you to buy. Did he say he will NOT look to the FA market? Nope. In fact, he left all avenues open, although he warned us that he does not expect the Twins to compete for "elite" FA pitching talent (thank God!).

So, jokin, if Ryan fails to fix the rotation for 2013, I will join you in calling for his head. I'll define "fix" as a rotation with an ERA in the top 10 in the league. If he fixes the rotation, jokin, I'm expecting you to sing his praises. Not.

jokin
08-30-2012, 11:15 AM
Nick, that's precisely correct. Ryan admitted his failure to fix things on the fly. But that's not enough for Souhan and others, who will manipulate his comments to support their own conclusions. Apparently, jokin, you are quick at emulating.


Again, Ryan never said he's going to fix the rotation simply by signing Baker and Pavano. That's what Souhan and jokin would like you to buy. Did he say he will NOT look to the FA market? Nope. In fact, he left all avenues open, although he warned us that he does not expect the Twins to compete for "elite" FA pitching talent (thank God!).

So, jokin, if Ryan fails to fix the rotation for 2013, I will join you in calling for his head. I'll define "fix" as a rotation with an ERA in the top 10 in the league. If he fixes the rotation, jokin, I'm expecting you to sing his praises. Not.

I would bet the house that the Twins won't have an ERA in the top 10 in MLB, getting to 10th place in the AL would probably mean getting to ~72 wins-"fixes" like that will truly enter the Twins into a new Golden Age (preparing for next season in my most enthusiastic-best singing voice----YIPPEE..................................!......... .... UHHHHHH.......Blech)

jokin
08-30-2012, 11:33 AM
I'm trying to remember which trades and waiver deals Ryan has made to "fix some of those thing on the fly"........
Did you miss the part where he indicted himself and took the blame? I don't think even he would disagree with your assessments of his actions (or lack thereof) within "all markets" up to this point, but that doesn't mean he can't get better. Last offseason he was guilty of being too confident in what he had. He won't make that same mistake again this winter.

Actually, it was you! who missed the part where I initially stated that I admired Ryan for standing up and taking the blame, earlier in the thread.

The forgiving nature of Minnesotans, fans and analysts alike is telling. This isn't a guy who is "learning on the job", seriously, do you really offer "he can get better" at this point in his career? In your own words, "he's guilty" , likely "agrees" with that assessment, and should be held accountable under his own "indictment". You quantify his managment effort this year as a single "mistake", yet it's demonstrable that he bumbled and muddled his way from crisis to crisis without a coherent plan throughout the 2012 season, taking multiple Don Quixote-esque Voyages in the hopes of "finding" phantom castoff and Rule 5 OFs, cutting and trading proven starters for essentially nothing (mediocrities, yes, but at least serviceable to get you through the season), re-signing and overpaying proven BP mediocrities, placing proven BP specialists into positions where they were predictably bound to fail, not taking the "risks" that he, himself, insisted he must take each time a potential starter became available for acquisition or claim, in-season.......need we go on?

jmlease1
08-30-2012, 11:34 AM
I would argue that productive free agent signings should be on this list too, notably Doumit & Willingham, not just for their health. Both of these guys are under contract for 2 more seasons at very reasonable prices and are great examples of good free agent moves, both in what they've done and what they've kept the team from doing (i.e., not signing Michael Cuddyer. Willingham has been significantly better than Cuddyer (WAR of 3.0 vs 0.6, OPS+ of 147 vs. 101) and for $3.5M less. That's an encouraging sign too, that the Twins hopefully aren't going to overpay a guy just because he was here)

Middle INF is still an issue for the Twins, but the rest of the lineup looks solid, with much fewer questions for next year. That's a very good thing. The bullpen has fewer questions for next year. The rotation is where the questions are, but compared to last year there are a lot fewer ifs to wonder and worry about.

I said at the start of this season that this Twins club had so many questions and so much uncertainty up and down the roster that it was very hard to predict how the team would turn out. The lineup & bullpen have answered many of those questions. Now we need to get the rotation in order.

birdwatcher
08-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Fair-minded is maybe what most Minnesota fans and analysts strive to be, jokin. Take a cue from jmlease1, jokin. In fairness, he can credit the front office when credit is due. Even when some of us criticize things, we look to be fair instead of resorting to your "bumbled and muddled" jibberish.

Notice that you don't see us "foregivers" painting these wildly pollyannish pictures of the faultless Twins front office. So, your wildly distorted descriptions of ineptitude ring so hollow to most of us, jokin. If you toned that crap dowm, we could find a few grains of credibility in there somewhere.

jokin
08-30-2012, 12:44 PM
Fair-minded is maybe what most Minnesota fans and analysts strive to be, jokin. Take a cue from jmlease1, jokin. In fairness, he can credit the front office when credit is due. Even when some of us criticize things, we look to be fair instead of resorting to your "bumbled and muddled" jibberish.

Notice that you don't see us "foregivers" painting these wildly pollyannish pictures of the faultless Twins front office. So, your wildly distorted descriptions of ineptitude ring so hollow to most of us, jokin. If you toned that crap dowm, we could find a few grains of credibility in there somewhere.

Yes, debating points are made, arguments are won, when the facts presented on the table are valued as just merely "a few grains of credibility in there somewhere" and then are summarily thrown away as merely "jibberish" and "wildly disotorted descriptions of ineptitude" that "ring hollow".

It's no wonder your melliflous and excessively flowery use of non-substantive perjorative adjectives sounds and smells like "crap".

All right, then. You've convinced me.

Top Gun
08-30-2012, 12:59 PM
Need pitching no, need leadership yes. Don't have the dollars no, refuse to put a sellable product on the field yes.