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View Full Version : Where is Revere Most Valuable?



Fanatic Jack
03-01-2012, 06:51 PM
Ben Revere made a big impact on the field for the Minnesota Twins in 2011. We keep hearing about players who need more time in the minor leagues to develop and Revere is no different. He played in only 126 games between New Britain and Rochester before being called up in May at the young age of 23. He played 117 games for the Twins and hit .267/.310/.309. He also set a new team record with 34 stolen bases. Truthfully Revere is ahead of where Hunter and Span were at their age. However, nobody is going to compare Revere to Hunter and Span because that is crazy talk. Revere has many obvious flaws like no power, low OBP, and probably the weakest arm ever. Revere worked on his arm strength this winter playing long toss football with his family and reports are his throws look better. So the question is where is Revere most valuable?

Revere is more valuable right now hitting towards the bottom of the lineup until he can learn to draw more walks, bunt, and get on base at a much higher clip. Revere will slide over to left field to make room for Denard Span in center. This is a big mistake made by the coaching staff and here are the reasons why. Revere runs down everything in center field and plays the position with absolutely no fear. The same argument cannot be made of Span especially after suffering from a concussion last year. Revere saved the Twins 10 runs in center field in 2011 and was clearly one of the elite outfielders defensively in MLB. He also cost the team 5 runs because of his terrible arm. If Revere managed to improve his arm strength and can get rid of the baseball quicker, having him patrol center field should be a no brainer. Revere has always played center field and might not be as good defensively in a corner position. You can't say the same thing about Span who is an elite defender in either left or right field. I forgot to mention Willingham has played his entire career in left field and moving him at 33 makes zero sense. I believe these moves are made because our great manager does not want to ask Span to switch positions. Gardenhire tried the same thing with Delmon Young (career right fielder) in 2008 because he refused to move his precious Cuddyer. Does anybody remember how well that worked out? Revere is most valuable in centerfield and it's not even close. Please tell me what you think.

Thrylos
03-01-2012, 07:10 PM
A couple of quick thoughts about this:

- I fundamentally agree that the Twins will be better with Revere in Center
- I disagree about Span being "iffy" to hurt his body out there, especially in light of the fact that today he crushed head-first on the chain link fence trying to catch a Plouffe HR (thankfully he just got a fat lip only and he is ok)

Seth Stohs
03-01-2012, 08:36 PM
If it was me, I may put Revere in CF with Span in LF. I think that would be best. However, so many forget that when Span got hurt last summer, he was the #1 CF in all of baseball in UZR and was #1 in catches Out of Range. So, it's not like they're losing a ton by having Span in CF. I just like that the two of them are in LF and CF, covering so much space in that outfield. If healthy, both will be quite valuable for the Twins.

Cody Christie
03-01-2012, 10:09 PM
I could see the Twins leaving Span in center at the start of this season but moving Revere back to center in the future. Gardy doesn't want to upset his veterans by moving them to a different position in favor of a younger player. Even if it is better for the team.

Fanatic Jack
03-02-2012, 04:51 AM
Cody,

Your answer is a perfect example of why Gardenhire is a TERRIBLE manager. Do what's best for the team and don't worry about if the players like you.

Jontler
03-02-2012, 08:33 AM
Cody,

Your answer is a perfect example of why Gardenhire is a TERRIBLE manager. Do what's best for the team and don't worry about if the players like you.

This is a false dichotomy. A manager's job is to set the lineups as well as manage his players. Managing a player's attitudes and opinions is very much a part of the manager's job. Oftentimes what's best for the team is having the players happy.

BigVin
03-02-2012, 08:36 AM
I agree as well here boys!

Captain Kirkus
03-02-2012, 08:44 AM
I would like to make 2 points. 1st Gardy is not a terrible manager. I beleive he manages with his heart and not his head. This may lead to some poor decisions, but in the 10 years he has managed, 7 times Gardy has been top 3 for Manager of the Year. Until recently, most of that was accomplished with a lower payroll.
2nd, I agree with Fanatic Jack that Revere should be in center. Willingham should be in left and Span in right. Willy said he would adjust to Right field, why would the Twins have a guy adjust at 33 years old. They brought him in to mash the ball and drive in runs. As we have witnessed in the past, not all players adjust well to position changes and that can lead to poor performance at the plate as well. In defense of Delmon Young, he would have sucked at all position.

Thrylos
03-02-2012, 08:51 AM
I would like to make 2 points. 1st Gardy is not a terrible manager. I beleive he manages with his heart and not his head. This may lead to some poor decisions, but in the 10 years he has managed, 7 times Gardy has been top 3 for Manager of the Year. Until recently, most of that was accomplished with a lower payroll.
.

Gardenhire is the Manager of the Millennium

(manager of the year and other post-season awards are worthless, btw, because the ones who vote for them see like 10-15 games a year max, while some of us see about 150+)

kemics
03-02-2012, 09:02 AM
I don't believe the Twins lose anything by putting Revere in Center except that his arm is much weaker than Span's. Having him in left gives him a shorter throw to third and to home then it would be if he were in center. I've always seen the center fielder as the captain of the of, and I believe having Span there with his experience helps the defense. Revere can cover all of left himself, allowing Span to help willingham in right. I don't think you are using either Revere or Span correctly if you put them in right, revere especially because of his arm.

Revere needs to hit at the bottom of the lineup until he brings up his avg and obp. If he can get his OBP into the .330 range he will help the team immensely. Playing a full season he should easily steal 40+ bases. Putting him 9th, before the turn of the lineup, it's like having 2 speedy leadoff hitters, both he and Span will wreak havoc on the base paths. This potentially helps Spans OBP and AVG because of teams pitching out in order to keep Revere in check. Their speed keeps them from getting doubled up, having both on will allow carroll to move them over, and I think we will see Mauer up with runners on 2nd and 3rd a lot.

If Mauer is healthy, he could have his highest OBP ever, I see him drawing a ton more walks because of the above situation, especially if Willingham is 4th and splits the M&M boys.

I can't help but be excited by the possibilities.

Steve Lein
03-02-2012, 09:16 AM
I disagree with the notion that Ben Revere is a better in CF than Span, and also disagree that Revere's defensive value would be lost in LF.

Last year at Spring Training, Revere was playing LF and ran down a ball deep in the LCF gap, full-out superman diving onto the Warning Track to make the catch. I'd go so far as to say it was a better play than his over the shoulder jumping into the wall catch at Target Field that won awards for play of the year.

Revere is a speedy/uber-rangy OF. He'll be successful no matter where you put him as far as running down fly-balls and making plays like that. I leave Span in CF because #1) It's his position, he's earned it through both his fielding and hitting. I'd be pissed if the manager all of the sudden made me switch in this situation. #2) Span is still pretty damn good at it, as mentioned. #3) Arm strength is more important in CF than LF. Span's arm isn't great either, but much can be gained from hiding Revere's in LF.

Fanatic Jack
03-02-2012, 02:39 PM
Seth,

This whole idea of a veteran deserving a spot just because he has been there before is crazy. Span is a decent center fielder defensively and Revere is an outstanding center fielder. Span can play right field and Willingham only knows left. Why would you mess with past success. The reason why is because Gardenhire could screw up a wet dream. As a manager you make decisions based on what is best for your 25-man roster. You don't make decisions based on how one player is going to react to it. Gardenhire is scared to death of his players. He is the only manager in the history of the game to walk into a clubhouse and talk to each player before he makes a lineup card. He basically gives each player an opportunity to talk himself out of being in the lineup. The bottom line Gardenhire is afraid of hurting Span's feelings.

Hey Gardenhire go work at the YMCA if your worried about hurting your players feelings. I'm quite certain you can coach a kid's basketball team and make sure everyone plays equally. However, your attitude here is all wrong. Gardenhire has had the most talented players in Twins history and he has lost 12 straight playoff games. You think he would have learned something from moving Delmon Young to left field but apparently not. He is smarter than everyone else!!

Captain Kirkus
03-02-2012, 02:55 PM
Steve,

Hey Gardenhire go work at the YMCA if your worried about hurting your players feelings.

Great line

Jontler
03-02-2012, 03:15 PM
As a manager you make decisions based on what is best for your 25-man roster. You don't make decisions based on how one player is going to react to it.

Sometimes these are the same thing.


He is the only manager in the history of the game to walk into a clubhouse and talk to each player before he makes a lineup card.

Gardenhire has had the most talented players in Twins history

The reason why is because Gardenhire could screw up a wet dream.

Also, your ability to harness hyperbole is impressive.

Cap'n Piranha
03-02-2012, 04:09 PM
[QUOTE=Fanatic Jack;2000]The reason why is because Gardenhire could screw up a wet dream.QUOTE]

Whatever works for you, I guess.

Seth Stohs
03-02-2012, 04:19 PM
"why would the Twins have a guy adjust at 33 years old?"

In Willingham's case, cuz he's 33 and there is a lot less ground to cover in RF than LF.

minn55441
03-02-2012, 04:42 PM
Jack I think you are missing the obivous, Span will play 120-140 games in Center. Revere will end up being part of a platoon in left. So every time we face a lefty starter, we will move span back over to Center?

Span is the everyday starter in Center, he has proven himself. He is solid in the field and at the plate. They are close in the field, but as a hitter span is better in every category except steals. Depending on how well Revere performs at the plate, will determine the amount of his starts and at-bats. Doumit and Plouffe will both get starts in the outfield. I think Plouffe will end up playing as much or more than Ben in left, when it is all said and done.

James
03-02-2012, 04:43 PM
I would leave Span in CF for sure. Have you actually watched Revere track down a fly ball? He often starts out misreading it and starts running the wrong way. But, Revere manage to make a lot of plays because he is fast enough to make up for misreading the ball in the first place. Span takes great routes to the ball as well. Span is a great Center fielder.

Think about this fact, move Willingham to RF. Keep Span in CF and Revere in LF. You could then shade Span and Revere over more towards RF, therefore leaving less ground for Willingham (who is not known for his fielding) to cover. With Span in CF and Revere in LF, they could cover a lot of ground.

Shane Wahl
03-02-2012, 05:06 PM
Left field is much bigger than right field in TF, so it makes sense to move Willingham over. And I would think that Revere in LF and Span in CF would be about equal to Revere in CF and Span in LF. Span is not an "average" defensive CF, by the way. He is a good one.

TwinsArmChairGM_Jon
03-02-2012, 05:28 PM
Ideally, at least for now, Revere is most valuable as a fourth outfielder off the bench. He's great as a defensive replacement and his speed plays well as a pinch runner.

Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal team, so Ben is most likely going to be starting. His arm is not great or even average, so I have a hard time starting him anywhere but LF as long as we have Span.

His offensive statistics consist of a small sample size in parts of two seasons, but so far he has shown low OBP's and little power which shouldn't surprise anyone who saw his minor league numbers. He needs to raise his OBP 20 points this year just to get to league average and even there his offensive value is limited because of his lack of power. Is it possible for him to drastically raise his on-base-percentage to something well above average? Sure, but he's going to need to to be a Leadoff/Two hitter. Until then he's going to be a bottom of the order OF with some speed.

woolhouse
03-02-2012, 05:47 PM
Revere played in LF in Target Field towards the end of last season, too. And he made some great catches in the gap and running towards the line.

But if his bat isn't there, I think his most valuable place is on the bench as a late-inning defensive replacement for Plouffe or Willingham (with Span or Plouffe switching to right) or pinch runner.

spideyo
03-02-2012, 09:43 PM
Right now, Revere is most valuable standing on 2nd base. :-) Since we signed Willingham, I've thought it would be best to keep him in LF and put Span in RF. With Revere's range, he could cover a fair amount of LF to help out Willingham, and you wouldn't be forcing a guy to not just adjust to the other side of the OF, but also deal with the goofy-ass overhang. Span has the most experience at Target Field, let's put him in the trickiest spot.

As far as the plate goes, that's where we gotta remember that Revere is only 23. He's young enough that he still could develop a decent amount of power and an excellent eye at the plate. Give him a little time in a low pressure slot at the bottom of the order, and I think we'll see some great things from this young man.

Can someone tell Mr Carew to teach Revere how to steal home too? That'd be fun to watch.

Clare Chen
03-03-2012, 02:38 AM
He's young enough that he still could develop a decent amount of power

Well, that seems like a bit of a questionable assertion.

fbroschard
03-03-2012, 06:40 AM
Jack I just want to tell you what a great job you are doing! I think your opinion on the Twins are right on the mark. You are the only blogger who has the guts to say what is lacking with this organization. Thanks for your voice and keep it coming! I will always be listening.......

USAFChief
03-03-2012, 08:34 AM
On the bench. Winning organizations don't give an OF spot to. 650-ish OPS outfielder.

Todd G
03-03-2012, 08:48 AM
Revere played in LF in Target Field towards the end of last season, too. And he made some great catches in the gap and running towards the line.

But if his bat isn't there, I think his most valuable place is on the bench as a late-inning defensive replacement for Plouffe or Willingham (with Span or Plouffe switching to right) or pinch runner.

Exactly. Until he learns to get on base he's a 4th outfielder. Unfortunately carrying Revere, Butera and Nishioka all on the same bench would be an absolute pinch hitting nightmare.

Cap'n Piranha
03-05-2012, 07:15 AM
Steve,

This whole idea of a veteran deserving a spot just because he has been there before is crazy. Span is a decent center fielder defensively and Revere is an outstanding center fielder. Span can play right field and Willingham only knows left. Why would you mess with past success. The reason why is because Gardenhire could screw up a wet dream. As a manager you make decisions based on what is best for your 25-man roster. You don't make decisions based on how one player is going to react to it. Gardenhire is scared to death of his players. He is the only manager in the history of the game to walk into a clubhouse and talk to each player before he makes a lineup card. He basically gives each player an opportunity to talk himself out of being in the lineup. The bottom line Gardenhire is afraid of hurting Span's feelings.

Hey Gardenhire go work at the YMCA if your worried about hurting your players feelings. I'm quite certain you can coach a kid's basketball team and make sure everyone plays equally. However, your attitude here is all wrong. Gardenhire has had the most talented players in Twins history and he has lost 12 straight playoff games. You think he would have learned something from moving Delmon Young to left field but apparently not. He is smarter than everyone else!!

You seem to be under the misassumption that feelings don't matter, so let me pose a hypothetical to you. At your place of employment you have two bosses who alternate days. One is friendly, genuinely cares about you, and manages you as a person, and not just an employee. The other is bossy, doesn't seek your input, and is only interested in doign things his way, not matter what anyone else thinks. Which one of these bosses would you rather work for, and which one would get the best effort from you?

Also, from a statistical standpoint, last year Span's UZR/150 in CF was 17.6. In the last 4 years, he's gone from -32.7 to -11.5 to 4.5 to that 17.6--in other words, he has vastly improved his defense over the past 4 years. Revere, meanwhile, was at 15.1 in CF for UZR/150 last year. Denard therefore, based on the extremely small sample size, is more valuable in center than Revere.

Steve Lein
03-05-2012, 09:27 AM
Steve,

This whole idea of a veteran deserving a spot just because he has been there before is crazy. Span is a decent center fielder defensively and Revere is an outstanding center fielder. Span can play right field and Willingham only knows left. Why would you mess with past success.

This is where I disagree, and disagree strongly. Yes, the managers job should be to put the best players in the best position for his team to succeed, BUT, putting a "player in the best position" is NOT limited to solely their physical spot on the field. Like it or not, players have emotions and an ego, ask any coach who's ever taught a game and these are things they weigh. Span has earned that position, and he'll tell you that's where he wants to play. Would he move to a corner spot if asked? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean for a second it's what is best for him or the team. Remember when Cuddyer couldn't hit because he was worrying so much about where he'd play and having to pick a ground ball? Then Gardy moved him to the OF and he turned it around. Like it or not, in essence, this is the same exact thing that I'm talking about. You said it best yourself:
Why would you mess with past success.[?] I do NOT believe Ben Revere is a better CF than Span. As someone else mentions, Revere doesn't take good routes and has to make up for it with his speed. Span isn't all that slower and doesn't have the same route-taking issues. Span has an almost average arm, while Revere has a well-below average one. And I did not say Span deserves to be the CF just because he's "been there before". I said he deserves to be the CF because he's earned it. These are 2 drastically different things.

powrwrap
03-05-2012, 09:55 AM
Ideally, at least for now, Revere is most valuable as a fourth outfielder off the bench. He's great as a defensive replacement and his speed plays well as a pinch runner.

Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal team, so Ben is most likely going to be starting. His arm is not great or even average, so I have a hard time starting him anywhere but LF as long as we have Span.

His offensive statistics consist of a small sample size in parts of two seasons, but so far he has shown low OBP's and little power which shouldn't surprise anyone who saw his minor league numbers. He needs to raise his OBP 20 points this year just to get to league average and even there his offensive value is limited because of his lack of power. Is it possible for him to drastically raise his on-base-percentage to something well above average? Sure, but he's going to need to to be a Leadoff/Two hitter. Until then he's going to be a bottom of the order OF with some speed.

I was going to post something, but TwinsArmChairGM nailed it for me. Revere should not be in the starting lineup. He's a late inning pinch runner/defensive player. Those of you arguing that he should be placed at the bottom of the order are apparently forgetting that you then have a sequence of Revere-Span-Carroll, not exactly a run producing trio. Remember 2007: Tyner--Punto--Casilla?

jlovren
03-05-2012, 10:43 AM
On the bench. Winning organizations don't give an OF spot to. 650-ish OPS outfielder.

I would go as far to say that's the case for any position. However, I am inclined to think that Revere can raise his OBP to the league average and do some damage on the basepaths. To have a guy who steals 30-40 bases a year makes up for lack of power.

SDTwinsFan
03-05-2012, 11:31 AM
Couple things: comparing Delmon's switch from RF to LF and Willingham's switch from LF to RF is not at all the same thing. LF requires more range, which Delmon did not possess, resulting in terrible defense. However, switching from LF to RF requires less range, and even though perhaps more technically difficult (with the overhang), should be an easier role. Also, with all of the Revere discussion, it will be a moot point if Plouffe hits like he is capable of hitting.

Jim Crikket
03-05-2012, 12:30 PM
I like the idea of having at least two OFs that can cover some ground because it will make your pitchers "better" and save runs. That said, it dumbfounds me that so many people are ready to hand Ben Revere a starting spot... much less the CF starting spot... based on what we saw of him last season. His speed on the basebpaths means nothing if he (a) doesn't get on base, and (b) screws up when he does get on base. He's a nice guy to have for games when you want to give Span a day off and perhaps as a late inning replacement as a PR or for defense. But if Plouffe can cover some ground in the OF and contribute offensively, as well, he's got far more potential to improve the Twins than Revere does.

Thrylos
03-05-2012, 12:47 PM
Revere is 23 years old. He still has some learning to do and complete his game. I really never understood the frustration of some fans with younger players who have yet to reach their peak. Here are some numbers just for fun:
Ben Revere's age 23 season: .267/.310/.309 (.619 OPS)
Carlos Gomez' age 23 season: .229/.287/.337 (.623 OPS)
Delmon Young's age 23 season: .284/.308/.425 (.733 OPS)
Kirby Puckett's age 24 (was in the minors for his age 23 season: ) .296/.320/.336 (.655 OPS)

Gomez with similar numbers and better defence than Revere was rushed out of town. Ditto Delmon Young but his was in an injury-ladden season a season and a half later, following a .298/.333/.493 age 24 season, in which he single handedly pretty much carried the team to the post-season after Morneau's injury. Kirby because the Twins' fans darling, but that was in an era in which people were more patient regarding young hitters.

Twins Fan From Afar
03-05-2012, 01:10 PM
Revere is 23 years old. He still has some learning to do and complete his game. I really never understood the frustration of some fans with younger players who have yet to reach their peak. Here are some numbers just for fun:
Ben Revere's age 23 season: .267/.310/.309 (.619 OPS)
Carlos Gomez' age 23 season: .229/.287/.337 (.623 OPS)
Delmon Young's age 23 season: .284/.308/.425 (.733 OPS)
Kirby Puckett's age 24 (was in the minors for his age 23 season: ) .296/.320/.336 (.655 OPS)

Gomez with similar numbers and better defence than Revere was rushed out of town. Ditto Delmon Young but his was in an injury-ladden season a season and a half later, following a .298/.333/.493 age 24 season, in which he single handedly pretty much carried the team to the post-season after Morneau's injury. Kirby because the Twins' fans darling, but that was in an era in which people were more patient regarding young hitters.


Good points, thrylos. I think, perhaps because we have been hearing and seeing Revere part of 2010 and most of 2011, people have this perception that "what you see is what you get" with him -- that he's not going to improve or change his game. I'd like to think that, with him turning only 24 this May, there's room for growth. I'd also add that he's only played 130 major league games thus far. So it's understandable that he has some learning to do.

Jim Crikket
03-05-2012, 01:47 PM
I don't think it's being hyper-critical of Revere to point out that RIGHT NOW he is not deserving of being given a starting OF position. If and when he figures out how to get on base regularly and thus contribute offensively, then by all means, let's talk about whether he's earned a starting spot. Until then, we're just debating a potential he hasn't realized yet. It's just that people are suggesting he should supplant a presumed healthy Span in CF right now that seems premature, at best. And if he isn't going to be the primary CF, then it's fair to consider whether his lack of arm and lack of power at the plate make him the best option at a starting corner OF position to start this season.

zchrz
03-05-2012, 01:59 PM
Revere will be fine in left it hides his arm and its not going to sap to much range from him because they can just play span in right center to make up for Willinghams slow feet.

Nick Nelson
03-05-2012, 02:15 PM
I'd add to the list Torii Hunter, who hit .250/.309/.380 (.689 OPS) in his age 23 season and was a Gold Glover receiving MVP votes two years later. The rush to judgment on Revere strikes me as pretty extreme, although it's not hard to see why many folks see his skill set as rather limiting.

powrwrap
03-05-2012, 02:34 PM
I'd add to the list Torii Hunter, who hit .250/.309/.380 (.689 OPS) in his age 23 season and was a Gold Glover receiving MVP votes two years later. The rush to judgment on Revere strikes me as pretty extreme, although it's not hard to see why many folks see his skill set as rather limiting.

Statistics are a wonderful tool to rate talent. So are eyeballs and knowledge. I would suggest that those willing to dismiss Revere are using their eyes and knowledge while those holding out hoping that he will develop are relying on statistics OF OTHER PLAYERS. You may put me in the eyeball camp.

I'm afraid the most Twins fans can hope for with Revere is Juan Pierre Lite, meaning he will be like Juan Pierre except he will bat .270 instead of .300 and won't get on base as often.

Nick Nelson
03-05-2012, 02:48 PM
I'm afraid the most Twins fans can hope for with Revere is Juan Pierre Lite, meaning he will be like Juan Pierre except he will bat .270 instead of .300 and won't get on base as often.
What reason is there to assume Revere can't hit .300 or above in the majors? He hit .270 last year as a 23-year-old rookie. You see absolutely no upside for him?

Harrison Greeley III
03-05-2012, 02:51 PM
Span is indeed a great defensive CF, but Revere has the ability to be Carlos Gomez good if his jumps get better with experience. Let him log the time there to get better when facing a RHP. With a lefty, platoon Plouffe and put Span in CF.

powrwrap
03-05-2012, 02:57 PM
What reason is there to assume Revere can't hit .300 or above in the majors? He hit .270 last year as a 23-year-old rookie. You see absolutely no upside for him?

I presume you watch Twins games either at the ballpark or on TV. I simply don't see the potential. I see the upside being Juan Pierre Lite.

What is the track record for 5' 9" 170 lbs. 23 year old rookies that hit .270? With most of their hits on the ground?

Harrison Greeley III
03-05-2012, 03:22 PM
23 year old rookies that hit .270? With most of their hits on the ground?

What does his being 23 have anything to do with it?

spideyo
03-05-2012, 03:57 PM
I'm a big Revere fan, but assuming Span is back to his prime playing condition (which in my mind is still a HUGE "if"), I'm warming to the idea of Revere platooning with Plouffe in LF, at least to start. Then Plouffe also gets a little more playing time than if he was just on the bench, and it's not so scary to have span take a day off and have a Plouffe-Revere-Willingham OF. On the days Plouffe starts, Rever becomes a dangerous weapon on the bench. Definitely would make a team think twice about intentionally walking somebody late in a game when they could be subbed out for Revere.

Dilligaf69
03-05-2012, 04:21 PM
If Span stays healthy then it's a platoon with Plouffe in LF. Revere right now is a 4th OF/PH/PR.

Nick Nelson
03-05-2012, 05:02 PM
I presume you watch Twins games either at the ballpark or on TV. I simply don't see the potential. I see the upside being Juan Pierre Lite.

What is the track record for 5' 9" 170 lbs. 23 year old rookies that hit .270? With most of their hits on the ground?
Yes, I watch the games. I don't think you can make absolute assessments of a rookie no matter how much you watch them play. When Torii Hunter was struggling through his first season, looking raw in the outfield and over-matched at the plate, I'm sure many fans who watched him were making the same sort of rash judgments. Young players can improve, learn and make adjustments.

Just because Revere put the ball in the dirt 70 percent of the time last year doesn't mean he always will, and even if he continues to tend toward grounders it doesn't mean he can't be successful (look at Ichiro for an extreme example). He hit .300 or better at every level in the minors, without exception.

Turd Furgeson
03-05-2012, 05:12 PM
I think Revere is capable of hitting .300 but it will be pretty empty as I don't think he's going to draw many walks. He'll be severely lacking in the power department, I would guess as well. He'll makeup for some of that with his base stealing to be sure but overall I don't think he'll be much of a difference maker offensively. Could be a solid guy to bat near the bottom of your lineup but I don't expect too much more.

powrwrap
03-05-2012, 05:25 PM
Yes, I watch the games. I don't think you can make absolute assessments of a rookie no matter how much you watch them play. Young players can improve, learn and make adjustments.

Just because Revere put the ball in the dirt 70 percent of the time last year doesn't mean he always will, and even if he continues to tend toward grounders it doesn't mean he can't be successful (look at Ichiro for an extreme example). He hit .300 or better at every level in the minors, without exception.

I hope you are right. I just don't have any confidence in Revere being anything more than the second coming of Carlos Gomez, but with less power.

Seth Stohs
03-05-2012, 05:37 PM
which makes Juan Pierre a great comp for Revere. Early in Pierre's career, he would hit over .300 and get on base at a very good clip and then steal a ton of bases. Similar defensively. If Ben Revere turns into a young Juan Pierre, that could be very valuable. It will largely be dependent upon his ability to hit over .300.

jlovren
03-05-2012, 06:13 PM
What Juan Pierre did in his early career was all star level. Check his stats, quite remarkable. If Revere can hit .300 and get on base at .350-.370 and steal 45-60 bases than we all should be jumping for joy. I think it's not totally out of the question.

powrwrap
03-05-2012, 07:22 PM
which makes Juan Pierre a great comp for Revere.

Here is likely Ben Revere’s comp.

Player X: First round draft choice (21st pick)
Revere: First round draft choice (28th pick)

Player X Age: 21, League: A+, Batting: .303/.361/.343
Revere: Age: 21, League: A+, Batting: .311/.372/.369

Player X Age: 22, League: AA-AAA, Batting: .308/.381/.363
Revere Age: 22, League: AA, Batting: .305/.371/.363

Player X Age: 23, League; AAA, Batting: .321/.380/.349
Revere Age: 23, League: AAA, Batting: .303/.338/.364

Player X, First full year in Majors, Age 24, 396 ABs, Batting: .280/.311/.326, 31 of 37 in SB att.
Revere, First full year in Majors, Age 23, 450 ABs, Batting .267/.310/.309, 34 of 43 in SB att.

Can you guess the identity of “Player X”?

Nick Nelson
03-06-2012, 12:08 AM
I hope you are right. I just don't have any confidence in Revere being anything more than the second coming of Carlos Gomez, but with less power.
Carlos Gomez strikes out in nearly a quarter of his plate appearances. The two are not comparable. Revere is a contact hitter.

Nick Nelson
03-06-2012, 12:11 AM
Here is likely Ben Revere’s comp.

Player X: First round draft choice (21st pick)
Revere: First round draft choice (28th pick)

Player X Age: 21, League: A+, Batting: .303/.361/.343
Revere: Age: 21, League: A+, Batting: .311/.372/.369

Player X Age: 22, League: AA-AAA, Batting: .308/.381/.363
Revere Age: 22, League: AA, Batting: .305/.371/.363

Player X Age: 23, League; AAA, Batting: .321/.380/.349
Revere Age: 23, League: AAA, Batting: .303/.338/.364

Player X, First full year in Majors, Age 24, 396 ABs, Batting: .280/.311/.326, 31 of 37 in SB att.
Revere, First full year in Majors, Age 23, 450 ABs, Batting .267/.310/.309, 34 of 43 in SB att.

Can you guess the identity of “Player X”?
Here's a quote from you, from earlier in this thread:

"I would suggest that those willing to dismiss Revere are using their eyes and knowledge while those holding out hoping that he will develop are relying on statistics OF OTHER PLAYERS. You may put me in the eyeball camp."

Pretty funny.

Tyomoth
03-06-2012, 12:45 AM
Revere best serves the Twins by assuming a position on the trading block. Span has very similar abilities with the added ability to draw a walk. You simply can't have an outfield with two spray-hitting speedsters who can't throw. I'd rather see Willingham in left, Span in center, Plouffe (or other contending youngster with a bit of pop in his bat) in right and a new addition to the bullpen via trade.

Fanatic Jack
03-06-2012, 07:21 AM
Anybody watch last night’s spring training game against the Red Sox. Trevor Plouffe looked terrible in the outfield defensively. He turned around twice on an easy fly ball hit by David Ortiz that turned into a double. He can’t read or track fly balls off the bat. To say Revere is a 4th outfielder is a stretch so early in his career. I would rather say Plouffe is nothing more than a DH at best for the Twins. Revere is still most valuable in center field but he is much better defensively in left field than Plouffe and it's not even close. Plouffe might be worse than Delmon Young in left field with terrible jumps and bad judgment. Let's be honest Plouffe is another first round bust for the Twins.

alarp33
03-06-2012, 08:08 AM
Carlos Gomez strikes out in nearly a quarter of his plate appearances. The two are not comparable. Revere is a contact hitter.

You just compared Revere to Ichiro, I think that opens the door for any comps...

Nick Nelson
03-06-2012, 10:23 AM
You just compared Revere to Ichiro, I think that opens the door for any comps...
I didn't really compare them directly, I said they fit under the same profile. Both are contact hitters who won't walk a ton and derive their value from hitting for average and stealing bases. I pointed out that Ichiro is an extreme example, as he's basically the best-case scenario for that prototype. The takeaway should be that it's a lot easier to post a high batting average when you're striking out less than 10 percent of the time. Gomez hasn't even hit .260 in the bigs and probably won't because he whiffs so much.

powrwrap
03-06-2012, 10:32 AM
post deleted

powrwrap
03-06-2012, 10:37 AM
Here's a quote from you, from earlier in this thread:

"I would suggest that those willing to dismiss Revere are using their eyes and knowledge while those holding out hoping that he will develop are relying on statistics OF OTHER PLAYERS. You may put me in the eyeball camp."

Pretty funny.

I figured I'd play along. If people are going to use Torii Hunter and Kirby Puckett's early stats to project why they think Ben Revere should not be dismissed there are likely 25 other examples of closer comps to project why Ben Revere will not become Torii Hunter or Kirby Puckett.

The mystery player I selected is statistically amazingly close to Revere. Even down to the draft round selection spot and stolen bases stats.

Player X is Jason Tyner.

oprahchapelle
03-06-2012, 11:09 AM
Look for concussion symptoms in the next couple days

oprahchapelle
03-06-2012, 11:13 AM
Why does gardy insist on moving players from their most comfortable position? He did it with Delmon, now he is doing it with willingham.

oprahchapelle
03-06-2012, 11:28 AM
Tyner didn't have revere's smile

alarp33
03-06-2012, 12:03 PM
I didn't really compare them directly, I said they fit under the same profile. Both are contact hitters who won't walk a ton and derive their value from hitting for average and stealing bases. I pointed out that Ichiro is an extreme example, as he's basically the best-case scenario for that prototype. The takeaway should be that it's a lot easier to post a high batting average when you're striking out less than 10 percent of the time. Gomez hasn't even hit .260 in the bigs and probably won't because he whiffs so much.

Please, lets just stop here. Ichiro Suzuki might be the greatest pure contact hitter of many of our lifetimes. Ben Revere owns a .600 career OPS. Revere may very well turn out to be a fine contact hitter, but lets not use his name in the same sentence as Ichiro.

I heard Blackburn is working on a cutter, would it be safe to say if things go well he will be Roy Halladay?

Nick Nelson
03-06-2012, 01:41 PM
Please, lets just stop here. Ichiro Suzuki might be the greatest pure contact hitter of many of our lifetimes. Ben Revere owns a .600 career OPS. Revere may very well turn out to be a fine contact hitter, but lets not use his name in the same sentence as Ichiro.
Again, I didn't compare them. I pointed to Ichiro as an example of a player who succeeds while hitting the ball on the ground the majority of the time. No need to sensationalize or fall back on the tired "don't use their name in the same sentence!" routine. Revere won't turn into Ichiro, but one trait that has fed into Ichiro's huge hit totals -- being a lefty hitter who puts it in play and gets out of the box and down the line quickly -- is a trait that Revere shares. You can follow a great player's blueprint without aspiring to that level of greatness.


I figured I'd play along. If people are going to use Torii Hunter and Kirby Puckett's early stats to project why they think Ben Revere should not be dismissed there are likely 25 other examples of closer comps to project why Ben Revere will not become Torii Hunter or Kirby Puckett.
I don't think the point of those references was to prove that Revere is destined to become a star; rather it was to point out that many under-25 rookies struggle in their initial acclimation to the majors and that it's too early to dismiss Revere based on one season since he's still years away from his physical prime. Obviously he could fizzle out or turn into Jason Tyner. I doubt anyone has a hard time envisioning that.

powrwrap
03-06-2012, 02:04 PM
I don't think the point of those references was to prove that Revere is destined to become a star; rather it was to point out that many under-25 rookies struggle in their initial acclimation to the majors and that it's too early to dismiss Revere based on one season since he's still years away from his physical prime.

Fair enough, but there are far, far, more under-25 rookies that never amount to anything in the big leagues. Turning into Torii Hunter, Ichiro, Kirby Puckett is the rare exception, and should not be an expectation. If Revere makes it in the majors he's going to be Juan Pierre Lite or Johnny Damon with (at best) a handful of HRs a season. That would be a satisfactory outcome for this Twins' fan, but I don't see it happening.

whydidnt
03-06-2012, 02:08 PM
I think at this point it's pretty easy to say the current skills are not the skills that we see turn in to star players in MLB. He does appear to be fairly smart, seems like he works hard, has a decent track record in the minors, and has amazing speed. He has a chance to be decent regular for a few years. The issue is can a MLB team afford to have 2 singles hitters starting in their OF, and will his arm play in CF? If/When Hicks or Benson is major league ready, it's pretty easy to see one of them as a starter and Revere moving into the 4th OF - late inning replacement role. Benson really doesn't seem that far off and offers a lot more offensive potential. Hicks is certainly a question mark at this point, but I'm hoping that last year opened his eyes, and he brings a more aggressive approach this year.

tharasix
03-06-2012, 02:36 PM
As young as Revere is, he shouldn't be buried on the bench. If he's not going to start in the majors, start him in Rochester. Just suck it up and run out Span, Willingham, Plouffe, and Doumit.

Or! Put Span in right-center and Revere in left-center and run five infielders! Brilliant!

oprahchapelle
03-06-2012, 02:36 PM
Johnny Damon? He has an outside chance at the hall of fame. I don't think Revere will come close to that

powrwrap
03-06-2012, 03:18 PM
Johnny Damon? He has an outside chance at the hall of fame. I don't think Revere will come close to that

Damon has no chance at the HOF. If Revere bats .280 with and OPS of .750 it would be a great outcome for him.

jlovren
03-06-2012, 07:09 PM
Damon has no chance at the HOF. If Revere bats .280 with and OPS of .750 it would be a great outcome for him.

Getting those numbers batting ninth would be huge.

John Bonnes
03-06-2012, 08:48 PM
To go back to the original idea I gotta say, it might the Revere is fractionally more valuable in center field, but I think it's really fractional. And given that his arm is so weak, any advantage is almost completely lost. It sure seems like a wash to me. I wouldn't have a lot of hope thta Revere's arm is going to get better over this offseason or any offseason - this isn't a new thing. He's had years to make his arm stronger, it's always been a knock, and I've heard it's related to an old football injury. It is what it is. Left field suits him well.

I'll also say this about moving Span: anyone who thinks that is going to go seamlessly is seeing something a lot different than I. Span is a sensitive, prideful guy. His reaction to the possible trade rumors last year was pretty telling, including leaving the team out of nowhere to recover. To me, the risk of that affecting him is certainly not worth the fractional benefit (if any) of swapping Revere and Span.

Finally, I gotta think that if Revere is healthy and has his head on straight (which I've heard various takes on) he'll at the very least be the strong side of the platoon in left field. He'll get plenty of time.

John Bonnes
03-06-2012, 08:59 PM
Finally, as to where Revere is going to end up, I agree he's closer to the Tyner-Pierre path than someone like Puckett or even Ichiro. If he's at the top of that range, he's very valuable. If he's at the bottom of that range, he's a defensively gifted fourth outfielder and helluva pinch runner.

I'll go a step further: I think Tyner was undervalued. Sabrmetric guys overreacted to how much overreaction there was about his batting average and steals - and ended up underrating him. Back in November of 2007 I'd had about enough of it and wrote (http://twinsgeek.blogspot.com/2007/12/fifty-word-challenge.html):

Never has a player made so many smart baseball analysts act so dumb. Dogged by his reputation in Tampa Bay, way too many of us missed what Tyner was – a great fourth outfielder, who is probably good enough to hold down the strong side of the platoon in center field.

His career line with the Twins vs. RHP? 454 AB, .311 BA, .347 OBP, 13 SB, 3 CS. All for a league minimum price. If you don’t appreciate that, you need to pull your head out of your ass.

Thrylos
03-06-2012, 09:06 PM
I'll also say this about moving Span: anyone who thinks that is going to go seamlessly is seeing something a lot different than I. Span is a sensitive, prideful guy. His reaction to the possible trade rumors last year was pretty telling, including leaving the team out of nowhere to recover. To me, the risk of that affecting him is certainly not worth the fractional benefit (if any) of swapping Revere and Span.


This is an interesting take (in a good way :) )

So, would you say that Slowey was a pretty sensitive guy too, in the same manner? (And we know how this organization treated him...)

John Bonnes
03-06-2012, 09:19 PM
I don't think Slowey is sensitive the way Span is. Prideful, maybe. And there is nothing wrong with prideful.

But in Slowey's case the vibe became "I'm right and you all are wrong." Which isn't to say that Slowey was never right and the organization was - I think there were some mistakes on both sides. But it's awfully hard to have a decent working relationship once the lines are drawn like that.

Shane Wahl
03-07-2012, 12:08 AM
I would be very happy with a young Juan Pierresque player batting 9th in the lineup. What the hell?

That said, I would like to see him as trade bait AS LONG AS Benson and Hicks have a good April-August this year.

Steve Lein
03-07-2012, 11:13 AM
John - Agree with everything you say about Revere and Span swapping, and the "prideful" impact. Is the same point I was making to Jack earlier in the thread.

USAFChief
03-07-2012, 05:33 PM
Finally, as to where Revere is going to end up, I agree he's closer to the Tyner-Pierre path than someone like Puckett or even Ichiro. If he's at the top of that range, he's very valuable. If he's at the bottom of that range, he's a defensively gifted fourth outfielder and helluva pinch runner. I'll go a step further: I think Tyner was undervalued. Sabrmetric guys overreacted to how much overreaction there was about his batting average and steals - and ended up underrating him. Back in November of 2007 I'd had about enough of it and wrote (http://twinsgeek.blogspot.com/2007/12/fifty-word-challenge.html):Is it possible it wasn't the "Sabermetric guys" who were overreacting to Tyner...perhaps it was you?Tyner accumulated a grand total of 3 MLB PAs after leaving the Twins. IMO, he wasn't a "great" 4th OFer, ever, and thinking he could form 1/2 of an effective CF platoon was nothing but wishful thinking. it appears major league GMs and managers don't support your view either.

Shane Wahl
03-07-2012, 10:44 PM
Are people putting Juan Pierre on the same level as Jason Tyner? That is foolish.

jlovren
03-08-2012, 09:25 AM
I think people are saying the high end is Pierre and the low end is Tyner. At least that's what I am hoping they are doing.

powrwrap
03-08-2012, 09:28 AM
I think people are saying the high end is Pierre and the low end is Tyner. At least that's what I am hoping they are doing.

To clarify, I'm saying that Jason Tyner is the likely outcome for Revere with Juan Pierre Lite being the upside. Juan Pierre Lite is somewhere between Tyner and the real Juan Pierre. Another upside would be Johnny Damon with no power.

As has been mentioned that would be a decent #9 hitter, but I think folks need to stop thinking of Revere as a lead off hitter. Still, with Revere at #9, the Twins lineup for 2012 would have a consecutive trio of Revere, Span, and Carroll, not a good thing.

The Greatest Poster Alive
03-08-2012, 02:01 PM
I think Revere has already completely exceeded Tyner. Tyner has no notable speed, Revere is a basepath threat. I'm not a big revere guy, and I think his ideal role is similar to Pierre's with the dodgers. I hope the other outfielders on this roster are healthy enough/productive enough to relegate Revere to be a bench guy who gets a lot of playing time keeping all 3 outfielders fresh.

I think this is the year Benson breaks in to the majors. I anticipate Benson playing his way onto the big league club by July.

spideyo
03-08-2012, 11:19 PM
Just out of curiosity, what does Joe Benson have over Ben Revere (other than more hair)?

diehardtwinsfan
03-09-2012, 05:58 AM
Just out of curiosity, what does Joe Benson have over Ben Revere (other than more hair)?

A much higher ceiling.

Fanatic Jack
03-09-2012, 07:38 AM
There is no doubt about it Benson has all the tools to be a superstar player. However, I'm just not confident we will ever see the total package. He is already 25 and will start the season again in Rochester. He is definately much too talented to give up on yet.

The Greatest Poster Alive
03-09-2012, 10:18 AM
Just out of curiosity, what does Joe Benson have over Ben Revere (other than more hair)?

While it's still all potential right now... Benson has more power in his stroke, and has been consistently 100 points higher in OPS than Revere in the minors. Revere is a singles hitter, while Benson is a gap hitter, who can produce doubles.

Revere is a nice piece to have... but if he's starting, things are not going well for this team.

spideyo
03-09-2012, 05:05 PM
The last three years his OPS was higher, but he also played less than Revere, some of those plate appearances were at a lower level, and I don't think you can compare last year at all, when most of Revere's season was in the Majors and most of Benson's were in AA. For 2007 and 2008, when Benson was in Beliot and Revere was in Beloit and Gulf Coast, Revere actually had much higher numbers. Benson also has one more year as a pro player than Revere.

And while Benson has better SLG and OPB, his average has consistently been lower than Revere's, and his strikeouts have been MUCH higher. In 2010, Benson has 136 K's, and Revere had 137 his entire 5 years in the minors.

Granted, I haven't actually seen Benson play much, but based on stats alone, they seem fairly comparable. Benson is gonna get more extra base hits, but he's also gonna strike out more. Revere is gonna end up on 1st base most of the time, but he'll steal his way around the diamond a lot more. I guess it really depends on what you see as more valuable.

Personally, I'd love to see them both eventually in the starting lineup. Get Revere to take a few more walks, get Benson to strike out a bit less, and they'd compliment each other well. Revere gets to 1st, steals his way to 2nd, Benson doubles him in. We could see that A LOT.

John Bonnes
03-09-2012, 06:33 PM
And while Benson has better SLG and OPB, his average has consistently been lower than Revere's, and his strikeouts have been MUCH higher. In 2010, Benson has 136 K's, and Revere had 137 his entire 5 years in the minors.

I find the enthusiasm around Benson to be a tad high - not as high as the enthusiasm around Valencia two offseasons ago, but a little like that. His Ks scare me, and last year was really his first statistical sign of life.

Seth Stohs
03-09-2012, 10:02 PM
I find the enthusiasm around Benson to be a tad high - not as high as the enthusiasm around Valencia two offseasons ago, but a little like that. His Ks scare me, and last year was really his first statistical sign of life.

I don't know, John, those 27 HR he hit in 2010 and being named the Twins minor league hitter of the year tell me that he's shown it a couple of years in a row. The strikeouts are a concern. His aggressiveness can be positive or negative, so my opinion of Benson's future is how long it takes for the game to slow down for him. He's already the top defensive outfielder in the system.

jlovren
03-10-2012, 10:15 AM
Still, with Revere at #9, the Twins lineup for 2012 would have a consecutive trio of Revere, Span, and Carroll, not a good thing.

What would be the substitue?

Shane Wahl
03-10-2012, 11:55 AM
There is no doubt about it Benson has all the tools to be a superstar player. However, I'm just not confident we will ever see the total package. He is already 25 and will start the season again in Rochester. He is definately much too talented to give up on yet.

Are you talking about Benson? He just turned 24 a few days ago and hasn't even been to Rochester yet (even though he should have been promoted last year).

spideyo
03-10-2012, 12:12 PM
Yeah, Benson is only a couple months older than Revere, he just started in the minors a year before he did. I still don't get though, why he's too talented to give up on, and people have already given up on Revere.

If nothing else, Revere is a guy who BROKE HIS FACE and was back playing in a manner of weeks. Bloggers have constantly been bitching that we need more guys who won't take half the season off because of a stubbed toe. Revere throws his whole body into the game, and fights like hell to get back when he's hurt. Plus, as a fan, it's gonna be a helluva lot more exciting to see Revere diving for balls and stealing bases than seeing Plouffe try to get more extra base hits than he gives up in the field.

mike wants wins
03-10-2012, 12:27 PM
revere's best position is 4th OFer right now.

Turd Furgeson
03-11-2012, 03:29 AM
Yeah, Benson is only a couple months older than Revere, he just started in the minors a year before he did. I still don't get though, why he's too talented to give up on, and people have already given up on Revere.

If nothing else, Revere is a guy who BROKE HIS FACE and was back playing in a manner of weeks. Bloggers have constantly been bitching that we need more guys who won't take half the season off because of a stubbed toe. Revere throws his whole body into the game, and fights like hell to get back when he's hurt. Plus, as a fan, it's gonna be a helluva lot more exciting to see Revere diving for balls and stealing bases than seeing Plouffe try to get more extra base hits than he gives up in the field.

It's a matter of what Revere's skills will bring. He could potentially be a .300 hitter at the Major League level, but he's not going to have a very high on base percentage and his slugging percentage will most likely always be below .400. He should steal a lot of bases but the potential of that skill is negated somewhat because he won't be able to get on base at a high rate. As a defender, his arm is really bad. You really can't understate it. His range is awesome but you do have to have an arm, and I think left field is ideally Revere's position. Whereas, I could see Benson playing any position in the outfield with effectiveness.

Seth Stohs
03-11-2012, 05:38 PM
I do find it interesting that Joe Benson is playing exclusively in CF this spring. To me, Revere isn't the kind of player that would make me move Span, but Benson would be.

Thrylos
03-11-2012, 06:02 PM
Seth, I think that they want to give Revere as many reps as possible at LF so they would not play him at CF. Based on the few games that Benson played at CF, I think that he is probably projecting to be a corner OF range and route-wise. Will be interesting to see whether he or Mastroianni (if both in AAA) will start at center for Rochester.

Raven
03-11-2012, 06:19 PM
I think today's game showed what Benson brings to centerfield....and what Revere doesn't - an arm. Last week I watched Revere bobble a grounder in left and try to quickly throw it to 3rd when the runner tried to advance. I was surprised at the rainbow throw that was way off target. I can't see good things happening if he was in center. Even left field is going to be an adventure.

Fanatic Jack
03-11-2012, 06:29 PM
ShaneWahl,

My mistake Joe Benson is 24 and will start his first full season at Rochester in 2012. This should tell you all you need to know about his developement? Superstar players would be in the big leagues by now (See Jason Heyward, Evan Longoria, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden for more). Benson could become a great player but there is no doubt his development is slower than most 5-tool superstars. He also still struggles to make contact and strikesout way too often. I sure hope this is the year he finally comes to fruition. However, I will not hold my breath!!

Seth Stohs
03-11-2012, 06:45 PM
Seth, I think that they want to give Revere as many reps as possible at LF so they would not play him at CF. Based on the few games that Benson played at CF, I think that he is probably projecting to be a corner OF range and route-wise. Will be interesting to see whether he or Mastroianni (if both in AAA) will start at center for Rochester.

Thrylos, I can certainly agree with you on why Revere is playing in LF, for reps. That makes sense. But Benson's range is CF is not much less than Revere's, and his route-running is much better than Revere's. Arms aren't even comparable. Benson has primarily played CF in all but one of his minor league seasons. Last year, he played in CF 85 of 102 games. He's definitely a CF first. But he's such a great athlete, he can also play RF. Last year with the Twins was the first time he got much time in LF.

diehardtwinsfan
03-12-2012, 07:01 AM
I like Benson... not quite sure I'd use the term "superstar" to describe him. He's got potential to be an above average player at any OF position, so I wouldn't be surprised if he gets an allstar game or two over his career if things pan out, but I dont' think he's a Mauer, Griffey JR, Longoria, etc. If I was a betting man, he'll basically put up Cuddyer offensive numbers with a much better defense.... that's a pretty good player, but not a superstar.

Seth Stohs
03-12-2012, 08:25 AM
"If I was a betting man, he'll basically put up Cuddyer offensive numbers with a much better defense.... that's a pretty good player, but not a superstar."

If he does that, Twins fans should be absolutely thrilled!! I'd take that any day!

Fanatic Jack
03-12-2012, 08:34 AM
Seth,

I agree with you!! Michael Cuddyer type production would be fantastic. I believe that Ryan was looking towards the future and viewed Benson as somebody who could replace Cuddyer in the outfield. I love his athletic ability but can he make the improvements needed to be an everyday player? I sure hope so because he is fun to watch. He is not afraid of making mistakes and plays the outfield (Like Revere) with no fear.

StormJH1
03-12-2012, 09:43 AM
I think this is a very legitimate question, and one that needs more attention. To treat Revere like a left fielder basically sets him up for a career as a 4th outfielder. If not for his arm, I'd be willing to give him center field and just deal with the sucky bat. But I have a feeling we're going to see more than a few bloop singles to the right portion of CF leading to runner's on first taking the turn and heading to 3rd. Not to mention sac flys and Revere trying to get it back to the cutoff man from the warning track. Seriously, they should just have him it about 80 feet to Willigham and let him do the rest of the work...Revere's arm is THAT bad.

But if you put him in LF and Span in CF, that DOES hurt your offense. Guys like Ryan Braun, (pre-Chicago) Adam Dunn, and Willingham can play LF, and those guys are legit run producers. We're already "punting" at high run production at SS, 2B, and maybe even 3B if Valencia doesn't figure it out. While I don't want the defense to suck, at some point, we need to treat these positions more like the Detroit Tigers and less like the Seattle Mariners.

mike wants wins
03-12-2012, 09:47 AM
Storm, what's your point on the hurting offense? If Revere and Span are both on the field, what difference (offensively) does it make whether one plays CF or LF? None. Now, playing Revere at all is punting offense, imo, which is why he should be a 4th OFer on this team (assuming Plouffe can catch the ball at all).

Fanatic Jack
03-12-2012, 10:16 AM
Mike Wants Wins,

Have you watched any spring training games at all. Plouffe can't catch the ball and that is a fact. He is a DH at best and will be waived by the middle of the year if Benson is ready.

diehardtwinsfan
03-12-2012, 10:54 AM
"If I was a betting man, he'll basically put up Cuddyer offensive numbers with a much better defense.... that's a pretty good player, but not a superstar."

If he does that, Twins fans should be absolutely thrilled!! I'd take that any day!

as would I... that's no superstar though, unless he's a CF... that's just a really nice cost-controlled piece in our lineup. I think the future Twins OF looks pretty good. The IF with Michael, Dozier, Sano, and Parmalee should be decent as well... pitching on the other hand....

Shane Wahl
03-13-2012, 12:49 AM
Plouffe has actually been fine in LF in ST. The worry now is probably more about his bat. One cannot seriously maintain that Plouffe was more valuable to the Twins last year than Revere. The ideal situation for 2012 is CLEARLY a platoon of Revere and Plouffe in LF. There is no doubt about this. Except, probably, in Gardy's mind. I am sure Terry Ryan is aware, however, so I have hope there.

I would assume that Revere is not in the long term plans if Tosoni, Benson, and Hicks pan out.

Fanatic Jack
03-13-2012, 08:17 AM
This is the longest running thread at Twins Daily!! I believe Revere will take another step forward in his game this season. However, he still has no power, a weak arm, and struggles to get on base. His biggest value to the Twins is his ablity to catch everything in the outfield. Why would you take away one of his strengths by putting him in left field. Revere is most valuable in CF, Span in RF, and Willingham in LF. Plouffe can platoon with all three outfielders to give them days off. He can DH on other days to keep his bat in the lineup. Plouffe will most likely get between 450-500 at bats in 2012.

Steve Lein
03-13-2012, 08:59 AM
I fail to see how playing Revere in LF dramatically takes away his "strength" of running down fly balls, he's not ridiculously better than Span at it, who is also very good, and that would be the only reason I'd move Span out of there. While Revere may run down a few more fly ball's over the course of the season, I'd bet the difference between the runs he'd save with range over Span (if any) would be more than cancelled out by the runs he gives up with that arm in CF. I'm really confused as to why this is such a big issue with so many people.

diehardtwinsfan
03-13-2012, 09:58 AM
I fail to see how playing Revere in LF dramatically takes away his "strength" of running down fly balls, he's not ridiculously better than Span at it, who is also very good, and that would be the only reason I'd move Span out of there. While Revere may run down a few more fly ball's over the course of the season, I'd bet the difference between the runs he'd save with range over Span (if any) would be more than cancelled out by the runs he gives up with that arm in CF. I'm really confused as to why this is such a big issue with so many people.

pretty much this.

StormJH1
03-13-2012, 11:57 AM
Storm, what's your point on the hurting offense? If Revere and Span are both on the field, what difference (offensively) does it make whether one plays CF or LF? None. Now, playing Revere at all is punting offense, imo, which is why he should be a 4th OFer on this team (assuming Plouffe can catch the ball at all).

My point was exactly the opposite...Revere and Span probably should NOT both be on the field. There were grumblings early out of spring training that Plouffe had a chance at winning the RF job, which puts Willingham back to his more familiar spot in LF. I don't know if that will be the case or not, but even if that did happen, you can't just pencil in Span for 150 games this year as if there's no reason to worry about his health.

With the roster we have, I think some type of Doumit/Plouffe platoon in RF, Willingham in LF and Span in CF (unless injuries force Revere to take over) gives us the best chance of actually scoring runs this year. I recognize that Revere was drafted at a time when the organization had all but given up on Span (2007), but it DOES matter if Revere is now supposed to be a starting LF, and you're treating him as such instead of trying to draft or acquire a legitimate corner outfielder. We can only hope we'll get that some day in the form of Hicks, Arcia, Sano (if he moves to the OF), etc.

StormJH1
03-13-2012, 12:01 PM
I fail to see how playing Revere in LF dramatically takes away his "strength" of running down fly balls, he's not ridiculously better than Span at it, who is also very good, and that would be the only reason I'd move Span out of there. While Revere may run down a few more fly ball's over the course of the season, I'd bet the difference between the runs he'd save with range over Span (if any) would be more than cancelled out by the runs he gives up with that arm in CF. I'm really confused as to why this is such a big issue with so many people.
For the most part I totally agree with you...Revere and Span in center are probably a draw because Revere's range is offset by his arm.

The point of the thread is "Where is Revere most valuable?", and I guess what I'm arguing is "BENCH", or "Pinch runner/Defensive Replacement". A healthy Span has a much higher ceiling than Revere. Either of them would probably be fine as the CF, but playing both of them means we aren't even trying for power at two of the three OF positions. And it's not like we have Boston's infield in terms of power, either.

whydidnt
03-13-2012, 12:05 PM
Where did all the love for Plouffe come from? He has done nothing yet to show he can hit the way a corner OF should hit, yet everyone is penciling him as a solution, or even a DH. Yes he hit a few HRs last year, but really that was the first sign of life from his bat, and he's been in the system a long time. Revere does not have any power, I get that, but his speed can be a weapon, if utilized properly. From my perspective the biggest issue is that we really have no depth/options in the OF this year. If Span's sore neck is related to his concussion and he's shut down for a period, does anyone really want to go into the year with an OF of Plouffe, Revere and Willingham? That's one legit hitter in the OF and two huge question marks, and no impact players in the minors ready to step in. We're all hoping Benson can step up this year, but really he needs time in AAA to refine his approach. I'd be excited about Plouffe's offensive potential if he was still a middle infielder, but there's nothing in his past to suggest he's going to hit enough to be an everyday corner OF on a winning team.

Shane Wahl
03-13-2012, 01:48 PM
To reiterate, for 2012, Ben Revere's best value is as a LF platoon player (batting ninth) who serves as a late-inning pinch runner and defensive replacement, and a backup CF.

LF at Target Field is very spacious and Revere makes that position dramatically better. RF is smaller and requires a strong throwing arm. Span's speed is lost there and his arm is not a RF arm.

Of course this can change depending on his performance (strange things like hitting lefties better than righties, throwing a football (this is just a STUPID idea, in my view---they require different throwing motions, grips, etc.--he should be throwing baseballs) somehow miraculously bolsters arm strength (seriously, whose idea was that?), he bats .320+ and learns to take walks at a decent rate, etc.). And I don't think Ben Revere is the long-term solution in LF. We had better hope not. It would mean that Tosoni, Benson, Hicks, and Arcia basically all couldn't stick in the majors (Maybe if Hicks sticks as Span's replacement, Revere is left isn't terrible).

I think people shouldn't complain too much. We will get to watch Ben Revere in the field and on the bases and not Delmon Young.

The Greatest Poster Alive
03-13-2012, 02:58 PM
To reiterate, for 2012, Ben Revere's best value is as a LF platoon player (batting ninth) who serves as a late-inning pinch runner and defensive replacement, and a backup CF.

LF at Target Field is very spacious and Revere makes that position dramatically better. RF is smaller and requires a strong throwing arm. Span's speed is lost there and his arm is not a RF arm.

Of course this can change depending on his performance (strange things like hitting lefties better than righties, throwing a football (this is just a STUPID idea, in my view---they require different throwing motions, grips, etc.--he should be throwing baseballs) somehow miraculously bolsters arm strength (seriously, whose idea was that?), he bats .320+ and learns to take walks at a decent rate, etc.). And I don't think Ben Revere is the long-term solution in LF. We had better hope not. It would mean that Tosoni, Benson, Hicks, and Arcia basically all couldn't stick in the majors (Maybe if Hicks sticks as Span's replacement, Revere is left isn't terrible).

I think people shouldn't complain too much. We will get to watch Ben Revere in the field and on the bases and not Delmon Young.

Also, with Revere in LF, and Span in center... They can cheat towards RF to make up for Willingham's lack of speed.

Also, since I think Span is the best long-term option in centerfield, I think it's his position to lose.

Neinstein
03-13-2012, 03:23 PM
Where is Revere most valuable?
Maybe showing his versatility in the outfield for much of 2012 will produce a better trade value down the road.
Playing him mostly in LF might help others forget about his weak arm.

terencemann
03-15-2012, 08:31 AM
Also, with Revere in LF, and Span in center... They can cheat towards RF to make up for Willingham's lack of speed.

Also, since I think Span is the best long-term option in center-field, I think it's his position to lose.

I agree completely that, long-term, Span is much more likely to stick as the every-day center fielder than Revere due to Revere's limitations with the bat and his arm. Span is a very good center fielder and Revere doesn't provide a lot of improvement out there. What the Twins would really miss would be the difference between Span and Revere's arm in center.

I still hold out hope that Hicks can turn things around and learn to hit a little. An outfield of Span-Hicks-Benson could be a really good thing. I think that's where the team is heading in the short-run (pending Hicks' development) and so there's no reason to get too attached to Revere.

Brandon Warne
03-15-2012, 12:31 PM
Platooning with Plouffe in left and batting ninth.

Don't expect that Span-Hicks-Benson OF anytime soon. Willingham is inked for 3 years.

Shane Wahl
03-15-2012, 12:51 PM
If that OF is ready by 2014, Willingham will be the DH.

The Greatest Poster Alive
03-16-2012, 01:48 PM
I agree completely that, long-term, Span is much more likely to stick as the every-day center fielder than Revere due to Revere's limitations with the bat and his arm. Span is a very good center fielder and Revere doesn't provide a lot of improvement out there. What the Twins would really miss would be the difference between Span and Revere's arm in center.

I still hold out hope that Hicks can turn things around and learn to hit a little. An outfield of Span-Hicks-Benson could be a really good thing. I think that's where the team is heading in the short-run (pending Hicks' development) and so there's no reason to get too attached to Revere.

Don't forget about Arcia. The Twins have some good high end outfield talent.

Also, according to a twitter convo i had with lavelle a while back, if Sano can't stick in the infield they will try him in LF. He made it clear there were no plans to move Sano to LF at the moment, but as far as progression goes that's the next step. I still believe Sano can be a 3rd baseman. If Miguel Cabrera can still play there... it's hard to argue Sano will be too big for the position.

coachingkid
03-16-2012, 02:05 PM
Revere is a fourth outfielder. Never will be a five tool player. Has speed and defense maybe average after a year or two so right now a two tool maybe becomes a three tool player. Really can we build a future great outfield with a two or three tool player???