PDA

View Full Version : Rand: What If The Red Sox Go After Morneau And Mauer



John Bonnes
08-27-2012, 08:30 AM
http://m.startribune.com/?id=167498615

Seems like a good Monday morning talker....

nicksaviking
08-27-2012, 08:55 AM
The Red Sox dumped three of their biggest players and only got 1 reasonable prospect in return. The move was made to shed payroll. If the Red Sox were to come after Mauer and Morneau, surely they would see this trade under the same light, namely a salary dump in which they would not be forced to give up many high ceiling prospects. I'm not interested in dropping Mauer in a scenario where the Twins don't load up on a bunch of prospects. Given his salary and the precedence set by the Dodgers/Red Sox trade, that doesn't seem likely.

Mr. Ed
08-27-2012, 08:58 AM
If you get the prospects needed,

go for it.

Neither will win a ring in MN. This org needs an overhaul.

Mr. Ed
08-27-2012, 09:01 AM
When owner Pohlad thinks they only need Tweaking....

Please sell the team to someone who truly cares about baseball.

John Bonnes
08-27-2012, 09:23 AM
I'll say this....Morneau and Mauer both make some sense for the Red Sox.

- I'd love to see what Mauer could do in that ballpark. It could completely change the perception about him.
- And now that the Sox have managed to trade both Gonzalez and Youk, they're going to have some needs at first base (and a damn thin free agent market to tap (http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?891-Morneau-vs-The-Void)).

At the very least I can see the Sox calling the Twins about Morneau.

Top Gun
08-27-2012, 09:26 AM
If the Twins trade M&M I will quit following bseball.

Mr. Ed
08-27-2012, 09:33 AM
Top Gun, I can understand where you're coming from.

Morneau,though, is likely gone, either via trade in the next year, or Free Agency.

The Twins will probably continue to use Mauer's contract as a crutch in spending any money on pitching, and TRyan has already
said they won't spend in Free Agency. Have no idea why. Probably because they're constantly throwing big money away on
poor decisions.

I would have probably felt this way a couple years ago. No longer. The Twins need help in numerous areas.
With Mauer/Morneau, they're not contenders next year unless they hit the bullseye on every deal / transaction.

It's too bad they've buried themselves like this(the Twins). Great players/longtime Twins that have no chance at a ring here.

cr9617
08-27-2012, 09:36 AM
I can't see the Sox or any other team giving much in return for Mauer.

Shane Wahl
08-27-2012, 09:47 AM
Yes, I bet that Justin Morneau will be playing for Boston next year. Maybe Henry Owens and Drake Britton in return?

Shane Wahl
08-27-2012, 09:48 AM
The Twins would get 3 top 15 Sox prospects back for Mauer, FYI.

I don't want it to happen, but I can't believe people would doubt the haul would be significant!

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-27-2012, 09:50 AM
If the Twins trade Mauer anytime in the next 3-4 years, it would be unforgivable in my eyes. The dude is a future hall of famer in the prime of his career, a team gets a player like that once or twice in a generation, add to the fact he is a local guy/local legend. No way.

Yes, his contract is large, but it isn't the reason the Twins aren't competitive. They can have another 70- 80 million dollars to assemble the rest of the team with (plus more in the future), that is plenty of money to build a club.

cr9617
08-27-2012, 10:02 AM
The Twins would get 3 top 15 Sox prospects back for Mauer, FYI.

I don't want it to happen, but I can't believe people would doubt the haul would be significant!

A Top 15 prospect in the Red sox system might not even make an impact at the Major League level.

Mr. Ed
08-27-2012, 10:06 AM
Yes, his contract is large, but it isn't the reason the Twins aren't competitive. They can have another 70- 80 million dollars to assemble the rest of the team with (plus more in the future), that is plenty of money to build a club.

Except the Twins keep throwing money away year after year. Decision making on personnel has been spotty- at best.

Dilligaf69
08-27-2012, 12:34 PM
They both would be great fits for Fenway but I don't see it. I can see the Twins trying to move Morneau but not Mauer, not with 6 yrs left on his deall....maybe in 2 yrs if he's stays healthy which is a big if and a reason why the Twins might consider it. Thing is I don't think Mauer would waive his no-trade. He's from here, he like is it here his finace and here family are from MN, and frankly he makes a ton of money without the pressure a town like Boston would bring. Also the Sox did get Loney who is solid...anyone know his contract status as far as yrs left???

Dilligaf69
08-27-2012, 12:36 PM
The Red Sox dumped three of their biggest players and only got 1 reasonable prospect in return. The move was made to shed payroll. If the Red Sox were to come after Mauer and Morneau, surely they would see this trade under the same light, namely a salary dump in which they would not be forced to give up many high ceiling prospects. I'm not interested in dropping Mauer in a scenario where the Twins don't load up on a bunch of prospects. Given his salary and the precedence set by the Dodgers/Red Sox trade, that doesn't seem likely.


Yeah, and we would have to get that top P prospect back plus a bunch more and since pitching is also Boston's biggest need I don't see it.

Dilligaf69
08-27-2012, 12:38 PM
Yes, his contract is large, but it isn't the reason the Twins aren't competitive. They can have another 70- 80 million dollars to assemble the rest of the team with (plus more in the future), that is plenty of money to build a club.

Except the Twins keep throwing money away year after year. Decision making on personnel has been spotty- at best.


Yeah but that's the Pavano's, Capps, Blackie's etc...not Mauer. It's not the good players they have trouble with, it's the bad ones they think are good.

J-Dog Dungan
08-27-2012, 02:07 PM
I can't really see the Twins getting the prospects that they would be asking for if they were to deal both Mauer and Morneau (and I don't want them to deal Mauer).

rickyriolo
08-27-2012, 02:56 PM
They both would be great fits for Fenway but I don't see it. I can see the Twins trying to move Morneau but not Mauer, not with 6 yrs left on his deall....maybe in 2 yrs if he's stays healthy which is a big if and a reason why the Twins might consider it. Thing is I don't think Mauer would waive his no-trade. He's from here, he like is it here his finace and here family are from MN, and frankly he makes a ton of money without the pressure a town like Boston would bring. Also the Sox did get Loney who is solid...anyone know his contract status as far as yrs left???
Loney is a free agent next year 2013

PseudoSABR
08-27-2012, 03:04 PM
The fans would have an uprising if the Twins traded both their stars mere years after opening a partially publicly funded ballpark. For better or worse, the Twins are going to hold on to Mauer.

Winston Smith
08-27-2012, 03:22 PM
Mauer has a long way to go for consideration in the HOF.

Rosterman
08-27-2012, 03:27 PM
Why trade for Morneau, just wait a year for him to be a free agent. And Mauer, possible C/1B...you don't need Morneau. Waiting to see how Mauer does play out. When he signed with the Twins, he was thinking the team would stay and be competitive for his career. After next year, if the team can't arise above .500 ball, he might be welcoming a change. 3 top prospects and some also rans and The Twins would do it. Imagine what the Twins payroll would be in 2014 without Morneau, Mauer and Span around? Willingham your highest paid guy...followed by Doumit, and a bunch of newly crowned millionaires. Then we can talk about the Twins being...cheap.

JP3700
08-27-2012, 03:31 PM
I think it is very likely that the Red Sox talk to the twins in the off season.. but the two players they would target will be Morneau and Willingham. Talks are that they are looking to re sign Ross and Ortiz so that just leaves LF and 1B as holes. I would definitely entertain a package that started with Matt Barnes in return

SgtSchmidt11
08-27-2012, 04:48 PM
The Twins would get 3 top 15 Sox prospects back for Mauer, FYI.

I don't want it to happen, but I can't believe people would doubt the haul would be significant!
Don't think you could justify this trade at all. Not sure of the condition of the Sox farm, but a team would have to literally have to trade the farm to get Mauer. The Twins would need to get a MASSIVE haul if they were to trade Mauer. Basically he is untradeable.

B Richard
08-27-2012, 05:03 PM
I don't see Mauer moving- at all.

I'm starting to get more excited at the prospect of moving Morneau, however, if he continues to show flashes of his old self. He could be a real commodity next year if he stays healthy and plays well enough. IMO, the Twins have to move him if this is the case. Enough with these sentimental thoughts of seeing him retire as a Twin. I like him, but this is a business damnit: if we can get solid prospects for him next year, we have to make the shrewd decision and ship him off. Hopefully the 1B market continues to be thin.

Thrylos
08-27-2012, 06:11 PM
I'll say this....Morneau and Mauer both make some sense for the Red Sox.

- I'd love to see what Mauer could do in that ballpark. It could completely change the perception about him.
- And now that the Sox have managed to trade both Gonzalez and Youk, they're going to have some needs at first base (and a damn thin free agent market to tap (http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?891-Morneau-vs-The-Void)).

At the very least I can see the Sox calling the Twins about Morneau.

And Morneau has been a great hitting at Fenway. Their Career numbers at Fenway:

Mauer: .283/.386/.500 (70 PA)
Morneau: .375/.425/.604 (106 PA)

Thrylos
08-27-2012, 06:14 PM
I think that the PR hit that the Twins will take if they trade Mauer will be huge. Morneau is a different story.

Think of the fans who are still screaming about holding on to Gardenhire and his coaches and everyone at the front office after 2 consecutive 90+ loss seasons... You take the face of the Franchise away from them, they will be marching down Nicolet Mall.

I don't know whether anyone else remembers what happened in Minneapolis when Kirby was a free agent, visited Boston and word came out that he was about to sign with Boston... And that was pre-internet days. Multiply that by a huge factor and that will be the Mauer fallout

joeboo_22
08-27-2012, 06:44 PM
The new collective bargain has changed the game quite a bit I think, we didn't see a ton of prospects change hands this year, even with a bunch of teams contending. Liriano was one of the better pitchers on the market and brought two B or lower level prospects.

Second of all, you have to have a direction if you are going to trade your face of the franchise, and it helps if there is someone ready to replace. There isn't a catcher in the organization right now that is close.

As far as Morneau, he has turned it on as of late. If he has a good start of the year next year he would bring quite a bit more next year at the deadline I believe.

Kobs
08-27-2012, 07:04 PM
I think that the PR hit that the Twins will take if they trade Mauer will be huge. Morneau is a different story.

Think of the fans who are still screaming about holding on to Gardenhire and his coaches and everyone at the front office after 2 consecutive 90+ loss seasons... You take the face of the Franchise away from them, they will be marching down Nicolet Mall.

I don't know whether anyone else remembers what happened in Minneapolis when Kirby was a free agent, visited Boston and word came out that he was about to sign with Boston... And that was pre-internet days. Multiply that by a huge factor and that will be the Mauer fallout

Mauer is a fan favourite, but he ain't Kirby.

Dilligaf69
08-27-2012, 09:38 PM
I agree Justin would probably bring more at the deadline next yr but you are banking on him being healthy then but they only have him for 2 months and may not give up the prospects..on the other hand it's half the salary. If they get even a decent offer this winter they could trade him.

darin617
08-27-2012, 10:35 PM
If the Twins trade Mauer anytime in the next 3-4 years, it would be unforgivable in my eyes. The dude is a future hall of famer in the prime of his career, a team gets a player like that once or twice in a generation, add to the fact he is a local guy/local legend. No way.

Yes, his contract is large, but it isn't the reason the Twins aren't competitive. They can have another 70- 80 million dollars to assemble the rest of the team with (plus more in the future), that is plenty of money to build a club.

Mauer is only a HOF worthy if he becomes a full time catcher once again. Absolutely no chance as a 1B with no power and only a part time catcher. Batting titles won as a catcher are great but if you have watched the Twins this season he has caught only 59 games and played about 25 at 1B and DH the rest that he played.

Oxtung
08-30-2012, 12:20 AM
TRyan has already said they won't spend in Free Agency.

Where/when did he say that?

scottz
08-30-2012, 12:55 AM
TRyan has already said they won't spend in Free Agency.

Where/when did he say that?

Souhan article on 8/29:
http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/167784175.html

"Ryan was blunt about a variety of subjects. He...
* Would consider re-signing pending free-agent pitchers Scott Baker and Carl Pavano.
* Doubts he will pursue any elite free-agent pitchers this winter, saying it will be a "thin" market and that he's averse to signing such pitchers to the long-term deals required to land them."

and later,

"You have to be open to a lot of things when you're looking for starting pitching," he said. "You're going to have to take some risks and you're going to have to look at all the markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s. But if you want to do it the correct way, that's going to provide stability over the long haul, you're going to have to draft and develop guys, too.

Even when we had rotations that were darn good, we got them from about every avenue. We have to do the same thing moving forward here."

*********
My problem with this is that he says you have to look at every avenue, yet he dismisses one of the avenues (free agency) with a hand wave. If we don't sign an upper tier free agent pitcher, we might as well chalk up next year as another sub .500 season, and perhaps another 90+ loss season, unless we get an upper tier pitcher through another source. Given it is unlikely to pick up an upper tier pitcher via the waiver wire or Rule 5, he's pretty much saying the only way we're getting an upper tier pitcher is via trade. In cutting deals, when you let your trading partners know you don't have any other option, that's called "tipping your hand". Can't we at least PRETEND we might throw a few bucks at a quality pitcher?

Oxtung
08-30-2012, 01:05 AM
TRyan has already said they won't spend in Free Agency.

Where/when did he say that?

Souhan article on 8/29:
http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/167784175.html

"Ryan was blunt about a variety of subjects. He...
* Would consider re-signing pending free-agent pitchers Scott Baker and Carl Pavano.
* Doubts he will pursue any elite free-agent pitchers this winter, saying it will be a "thin" market and that he's averse to signing such pitchers to the long-term deals required to land them."

and later,

"You have to be open to a lot of things when you're looking for starting pitching," he said. "You're going to have to take some risks and you're going to have to look at all the markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s. But if you want to do it the correct way, that's going to provide stability over the long haul, you're going to have to draft and develop guys, too.

Even when we had rotations that were darn good, we got them from about every avenue. We have to do the same thing moving forward here."

*********
My problem with this is that he says you have to look at every avenue, yet he dismisses one of the avenues (free agency) with a hand wave. If we don't sign an upper tier free agent pitcher, we might as well chalk up next year as another sub .500 season, and perhaps another 90+ loss season, unless we get an upper tier pitcher through another source. Given it is unlikely to pick up an upper tier pitcher via the waiver wire or Rule 5, he's pretty much saying the only way we're getting an upper tier pitcher is via trade. In cutting deals, when you let your trading partners know you don't have any other option, that's called "tipping your hand". Can't we at least PRETEND we might throw a few bucks at a quality pitcher?

No where in that article did Ryan say he wouldn't spend in free agency. All it says is that he won't go after "Elite pitchers". Since there is only really 1 elite pitcher on the market this year he really isn't saying much. On top of that he continues on to say that FA actually SHOULD be looked at to shore up the pitching. So again, where and when did he say he won't spend because it sure isn't that article.

jokin
08-30-2012, 01:06 AM
TRyan has already said they won't spend in Free Agency.

Where/when did he say that?

Souhan article on 8/29:
http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/167784175.html

"Ryan was blunt about a variety of subjects. He...
* Would consider re-signing pending free-agent pitchers Scott Baker and Carl Pavano.
* Doubts he will pursue any elite free-agent pitchers this winter, saying it will be a "thin" market and that he's averse to signing such pitchers to the long-term deals required to land them."

and later,

"You have to be open to a lot of things when you're looking for starting pitching," he said. "You're going to have to take some risks and you're going to have to look at all the markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s. But if you want to do it the correct way, that's going to provide stability over the long haul, you're going to have to draft and develop guys, too.

Even when we had rotations that were darn good, we got them from about every avenue. We have to do the same thing moving forward here."

*********
My problem with this is that he says you have to look at every avenue, yet he dismisses one of the avenues (free agency) with a hand wave. If we don't sign an upper tier free agent pitcher, we might as well chalk up next year as another sub .500 season, and perhaps another 90+ loss season, unless we get an upper tier pitcher through another source. Given it is unlikely to pick up an upper tier pitcher via the waiver wire or Rule 5, he's pretty much saying the only way we're getting an upper tier pitcher is via trade. In cutting deals, when you let your trading partners know you don't have any other option, that's called "tipping your hand". Can't we at least PRETEND we might throw a few bucks at a quality pitcher?

I think it was Seth who said it best when he characterized Ryan as remarkably even more conservative with the owner's money than the owner himself.

jokin
08-30-2012, 01:09 AM
TRyan has already said they won't spend in Free Agency.

Where/when did he say that?

Souhan article on 8/29:
http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/167784175.html

"Ryan was blunt about a variety of subjects. He...
* Would consider re-signing pending free-agent pitchers Scott Baker and Carl Pavano.
* Doubts he will pursue any elite free-agent pitchers this winter, saying it will be a "thin" market and that he's averse to signing such pitchers to the long-term deals required to land them."

and later,

"You have to be open to a lot of things when you're looking for starting pitching," he said. "You're going to have to take some risks and you're going to have to look at all the markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s. But if you want to do it the correct way, that's going to provide stability over the long haul, you're going to have to draft and develop guys, too.

Even when we had rotations that were darn good, we got them from about every avenue. We have to do the same thing moving forward here."

*********
My problem with this is that he says you have to look at every avenue, yet he dismisses one of the avenues (free agency) with a hand wave. If we don't sign an upper tier free agent pitcher, we might as well chalk up next year as another sub .500 season, and perhaps another 90+ loss season, unless we get an upper tier pitcher through another source. Given it is unlikely to pick up an upper tier pitcher via the waiver wire or Rule 5, he's pretty much saying the only way we're getting an upper tier pitcher is via trade. In cutting deals, when you let your trading partners know you don't have any other option, that's called "tipping your hand". Can't we at least PRETEND we might throw a few bucks at a quality pitcher?

No where in that article did Ryan say he wouldn't spend in free agency. All it says is that he won't go after "Elite pitchers". Since there is only really 1 elite pitcher on the market this year he really isn't saying much. On top of that he continues on to say that FA actually SHOULD be looked at to shore up the pitching. So again, where and when did he say he won't spend because it sure isn't that article.

The payroll isn't expanding, it's contracting...therefore.... more Marquis signings and has-been retread re-signings, you won the argument, but what did you really win here?

Shane Wahl
08-30-2012, 01:10 AM
No one in their right mind believes that trading Mauer is going to happen. Can't we all agree on that?

jokin
08-30-2012, 01:16 AM
No one in their right mind believes that trading Mauer is going to happen. Can't we all agree on that?

Of course not. But, FWIW, Reusse put the chances at 2%, right after he made light of the prospect of such an event on Twitter with some moron-rube-baiting.

scottz
08-30-2012, 01:37 AM
No where in that article did Ryan say he wouldn't spend in free agency. All it says is that he won't go after "Elite pitchers". Since there is only really 1 elite pitcher on the market this year he really isn't saying much. On top of that he continues on to say that FA actually SHOULD be looked at to shore up the pitching. So again, where and when did he say he won't spend because it sure isn't that article.

It also says that Ryan declared the free agent market as "thin." And there's another thread on this forum dissecting what Ryan is quoted as saying versus what Souhan might be stirring up. I'm saying I wish the quote would be "we're going to be players in every market" rather than "you're going to have to look at all the markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s." Of course you have to look at waivers and Rule 5s. But this team just leans way too heavy to trying to find a diamond in the rough as way to fill obvious holes in the rotation for my tastes. Pretend you're going to be in the market to buy an arm.

If we had 4 guys penciled in the rotation to rely on for next year, I'd have no problem with the phrasing in the article. But we don't. We have one guy (Diamond) who has nearly a full season of solid history to give us full, unwavering confidence in him. Then, we have Hendriks who has a fantastic AAA resume and one complete game with the big leaguers. Then, we have Gibson and his TJ recovery and his almost certain limited innings. Then we have Deduno and his crazy fastball. Then we have DeVries, or whomever else you want to say is next. I'd love it if all of the guys became the pitchers we want them to be. But it is foolish to go into season after season hoping that this year will be the year everything comes together. I'd like more past performance - i.e., an established repeatedly good pitcher - on the squad. In fact, I'd like two so we can hope with the bottom 3 guys in the rotation, instead of the top 3. And the Twins have some money available, unless they decide that Carl Pavano and his 86 mph fastball is an established repeatedly good pitcher. If that's their evaluation, I'd rather have a turd sandwich with mustard.

Oxtung
08-30-2012, 01:57 AM
No where in that article did Ryan say he wouldn't spend in free agency. All it says is that he won't go after "Elite pitchers". Since there is only really 1 elite pitcher on the market this year he really isn't saying much. On top of that he continues on to say that FA actually SHOULD be looked at to shore up the pitching. So again, where and when did he say he won't spend because it sure isn't that article.

It also says that Ryan declared the free agent market as "thin." And there's another thread on this forum dissecting what Ryan is quoted as saying versus what Souhan might be stirring up. I'm saying I wish the quote would be "we're going to be players in every market" rather than "you're going to have to look at all the markets, not just free agency, but trades and waivers and Rule 5s." Of course you have to look at waivers and Rule 5s. But this team just leans way too heavy to trying to find a diamond in the rough as way to fill obvious holes in the rotation for my tastes. Pretend you're going to be in the market to buy an arm.

If we had 4 guys penciled in the rotation to rely on for next year, I'd have no problem with the phrasing in the article. But we don't. We have one guy (Diamond) who has nearly a full season of solid history to give us full, unwavering confidence in him. Then, we have Hendriks who has a fantastic AAA resume and one complete game with the big leaguers. Then, we have Gibson and his TJ recovery and his almost certain limited innings. Then we have Deduno and his crazy fastball. Then we have DeVries, or whomever else you want to say is next. I'd love it if all of the guys became the pitchers we want them to be. But it is foolish to go into season after season hoping that this year will be the year everything comes together. I'd like more past performance - i.e., an established repeatedly good pitcher - on the squad. In fact, I'd like two so we can hope with the bottom 3 guys in the rotation, instead of the top 3. And the Twins have some money available, unless they decide that Carl Pavano and his 86 mph fastball is an established repeatedly good pitcher. If that's their evaluation, I'd rather have a turd sandwich with mustard.

I agree with most of what you're saying. I just am trying to keep you honest in what Ryan did and did not say. You're bashing him, and you do it in this post again, for something he didn't say. He didn't call the entire FA market "thin". He only said that the "elite FA pitcher" market was thin. But anybody can see that. The only elite pitcher out there now is Greinke. Maybe the Twins sign some good FA's and maybe they don't but don't hang Ryan out to dry for something he didn't in fact say.