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J-Dog Dungan
08-22-2012, 11:48 PM
Yeah, so maybe while it was not a good trade by Bill Smith, the fact that the Twins aren't covering Santana's huge contract while he stays almost perpetually injured might not be such a bad thing after all.:p

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-22-2012, 11:50 PM
I feel ****ty for Johan, its a shame really. If he can manage to get another 2 years of healthy ball somehow, he is a sure thing hall of famer, and most likely would go in wearing a Twins hat.

Pius Jefferson
08-22-2012, 11:53 PM
He needs more than two more good years before he's a sure hall of famer.

J-Dog Dungan
08-22-2012, 11:59 PM
He would need at least five, all healthy and producing like he did with the Twins.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-23-2012, 12:04 AM
He needs more than two more good years before he's a sure hall of famer.

I dunno about that, pitchers from this era are going to be viewed differently in the future. Nobody is going to be approaching 300 wins again, and the days of 20+ year careers are going to go by the wayside more or less. Santana has put together 7.5 fantasic seasons thus far, if he can get 2 more fantastic years, and a couple "decent/good" years he should make it.

SweetOne69
08-23-2012, 08:37 AM
If he can put together a 3rd Cy Young (which we all know he should have already), he would be a shoe in hall of famer. He is already in rare company (only 16 pitchers have won multiple cy young awards), a third would put him among 8 others with 3 or more. All eligible pitchers with 3 or more Cy Youngs were 1st ballot HOF'ers.

diehardtwinsfan
08-23-2012, 10:14 AM
if you want to do an interesting look at pitcher abuse points, take a look at how Johan was handled in NY vs. MN and compare to his injury history.

J-Dog Dungan
08-23-2012, 10:20 AM
if you want to do an interesting look at pitcher abuse points, take a look at how Johan was handled in NY vs. MN and compare to his injury history.

I would imagine it would look a lot like Carl Pavano's, except backwards.

Brock Beauchamp
08-23-2012, 11:18 AM
Every time I see Johan's name, I think "WHY wouldn't he go to LA?"

He would have been a God in Dodger blue... And the Twins would have been able to get more than filler in a trade to LA.

Winston Smith
08-23-2012, 11:34 AM
I was in favor of signing him for a deal like he got. Reasoning it is just so hard to find a true ace, what have we had 1 in 20 years. But this is the chance you take they will never get the production back for all that money. 61 more wins to get 200 he's 33 so 15 a year for 4 yrs gets him to 38. Not going to happen, imo. I don't think you get into the HOF with less than 200 wins.

Shane Wahl
08-23-2012, 11:42 AM
Yeah, so maybe while it was not a good trade by Bill Smith, the fact that the Twins aren't covering Santana's huge contract while he stays almost perpetually injured might not be such a bad thing after all.:p

It's possible that he doesn't get injured, or at least as much, if he stayed in the Twins organization.

Or . . . given how the Twins medical staff is . . . he may never have thrown another ball!

SweetOne69
08-23-2012, 01:01 PM
I was in favor of signing him for a deal like he got. Reasoning it is just so hard to find a true ace, what have we had 1 in 20 years. But this is the chance you take they will never get the production back for all that money. 61 more wins to get 200 he's 33 so 15 a year for 4 yrs gets him to 38. Not going to happen, imo. I don't think you get into the HOF with less than 200 wins.

There are several starting pitchers in the HOF without 200 Wins: Dizzy Dean, Sandy Koufax, Lefty Gomez, etc. I believe Sandy Koufax was the last starter to get into the HOF with less than 200 wins in his career.

Blackjack
08-23-2012, 02:54 PM
I stil miss Johan, loved listening to the game when he started, you knew the Twins had a good chance to win, especially when he heated up in the summer time. Glad that they didn't sign him to that type of contract though!!!

Pius Jefferson
08-23-2012, 02:58 PM
He needs more than two more good years before he's a sure hall of famer.

I dunno about that, pitchers from this era are going to be viewed differently in the future. Nobody is going to be approaching 300 wins again, and the days of 20+ year careers are going to go by the wayside more or less. Santana has put together 7.5 fantasic seasons thus far, if he can get 2 more fantastic years, and a couple "decent/good" years he should make it.


I hope your right Dave and Santana get things turned around and be a real HOF candidate. I just don't see those necessary great years that get him over the hump. He can probably bounce back and be a good starting pitcher. Of course enough good seasons and he's around 200 wins.

Winston Smith
08-23-2012, 03:21 PM
I was in favor of signing him for a deal like he got. Reasoning it is just so hard to find a true ace, what have we had 1 in 20 years. But this is the chance you take they will never get the production back for all that money. 61 more wins to get 200 he's 33 so 15 a year for 4 yrs gets him to 38. Not going to happen, imo. I don't think you get into the HOF with less than 200 wins.

There are several starting pitchers in the HOF without 200 Wins: Dizzy Dean, Sandy Koufax, Lefty Gomez, etc. I believe Sandy Koufax was the last starter to get into the HOF with less than 200 wins in his career.

Yes I understand that but I think Koufax was a special case, 3 Cy Youngs and an MVP. Dizzy and Lefty were a long long time ago.

SweetOne69
08-23-2012, 04:19 PM
I was in favor of signing him for a deal like he got. Reasoning it is just so hard to find a true ace, what have we had 1 in 20 years. But this is the chance you take they will never get the production back for all that money. 61 more wins to get 200 he's 33 so 15 a year for 4 yrs gets him to 38. Not going to happen, imo. I don't think you get into the HOF with less than 200 wins.

There are several starting pitchers in the HOF without 200 Wins: Dizzy Dean, Sandy Koufax, Lefty Gomez, etc. I believe Sandy Koufax was the last starter to get into the HOF with less than 200 wins in his career.

Yes I understand that but I think Koufax was a special case, 3 Cy Youngs and an MVP. Dizzy and Lefty were a long long time ago.

That is why I initially said that if Santana can put together another Cy Young year he would be a shoe in.

Kobs
08-23-2012, 06:51 PM
Santana's case will never be similar to Koufax's.

Bark's Lounge
08-23-2012, 07:08 PM
I suppose anything is possible, but Santana an HOFer? No way, no way, no way. Comparison's to Koufax? What!? Kobs is on point that the 2 can never be compared to be similar. Johan had a nice short term run and he was great, but not Koufax great - now he is 33 with a tired arm and I would be surprised if he ever pitched 200 innings in a season again. Like I said, anything is possible, but Santana being proposed as and HOFer seems a bit outlandish. I'll even go as far as to say Jamie Moyer has a better shot at the HOF and that is not going to happen... strike that last sentence, but Santana as an HOFer is a ridiculous notion.

dougg13
08-23-2012, 08:09 PM
Ya, as much as I'd like to see to have seen Johan remain a Twin, and I'd like to see him in the HOF, I just think the injuries will cost him. It's fun to play the "what if" game with him.

biggentleben
08-24-2012, 03:17 PM
Nobody is going to be approaching 300 wins again, and the days of 20+ year careers are going to go by the wayside more or less.

This is all conjecture, of course, considering we're in the midst of the most prolific 200- and 300-win eras in the history of the game. For instance, check out the 300 game winners by era:
There have been 24 300-game winners in the ~135 year history of professional baseball...

9 from pre-1910: (Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Pud Galvin, Kid Nichols, Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Eddie Plank, Old Hoss Radbourn, Mickey Welch)
3 from 1910-1945: (Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Lefty Grove)
3 from 1945-1975: (Warren Spahn, Early Wynn, Gaylord Perry)
6 from 1975-1990: (Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Phil Niekro, Tom Seaver)
4 from 1990-2010: (Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Tom Glavine, Randy Johnson)

2010 really starts another era of baseball as we’ve seen a drastic change in the game around that point, so we’ll see what the current generation brings, but we’re right at normal for an era of 300-game winners. The feat is very rare, so we shouldn’t expect to see more than 1-2 in a lifetime, yet for most on this forum, we’ve seen at least 4 pitch, and I’ve been blessed to watch games of nearly half of the entire 300-game winners in my lifetime. This era has been one of the most prolific in producing 300-game winners since Babe Ruth was taking cuts. Guys like Sabathia or Halladay, if they get to that number, would also count toward the pre-2010 range as they accumulated most of their wins before 2010, so there's a legit possibility to see more 300 game winners in the lifetime of someone who is 30 than their great-grandparent did in his/her lifetime.