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DPJ
08-21-2012, 03:26 PM
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/21/frustrated-carl-pavano-shut-down-after-new-diagnsosis/


Itís too bad it took three months diagnose that. I could have been resting. The good news is, it doesnít require surgery. Iíve had this in the past and gotten through it, and obviously Iíve pitched a lot since then. But as far as Iím concerned, this whole season has been a failure on many levels, for myself, for the team. Itís just kind of lousy that it took this long.


And a nice shot at the Twins Medical Staff on the way out the door.

Mauerzy4Prez
08-21-2012, 03:39 PM
Can somebody please find a JPEG of the angry mob that went to kill frankestein's beast and post it on here for me? I am at work and can't get through our privacy blocks.......

Seriously though, this is so ridiculous it's not even funny. If TR wants to save himself a whole lot of headaches, and potentially keep his job. I'd like to think that he is having his HR department cut final paychecks right now for the entire medical staff.

Willihammer
08-21-2012, 03:44 PM
How do you rehab a bruised bone, rest it? Has Zorro been throwing BP for the last three months?

Mauerzy4Prez
08-21-2012, 03:47 PM
How do you rehab a bruised bone, rest it? Has Zorro been throwing BP for the last three months?

I bruised a bone on the top of my right foot when I was young and it is incredibly painful. There is a lot of swelling, and really the only thing you can do is rest and ice it. Surgery won't help anything... The Twins medical staff may have reinstated the nickname "American Idle" for Pavano...

Jim Crikket
08-21-2012, 03:48 PM
Pavano went on to say he'd take the blame. As he should. After all, ANY Twins player who has so much as a hangnail and doesn't get several opinions outside of the Twins so-called medical staff should accept the blame for just being stupid.

Mauerzy4Prez
08-21-2012, 03:48 PM
How do you rehab a bruised bone, rest it? Has Zorro been throwing BP for the last three months?

I bruised a bone on the top of my right foot when I was young and it is incredibly painful. There is a lot of swelling, and really the only thing you can do is rest and ice it. Surgery won't help anything... The Twins medical staff may have reinstated the nickname "American Idle" for Pavano...

..... P.s. my bruised bone was diagnosed by a simple x-ray at an urgent care in Ft. Myers Beach FL while I was on spring break vacation. It took our staff over 3 months to diagnose Pavano. DOH!!!

Twins Twerp
08-21-2012, 03:50 PM
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7Ggt9KxDvCHB_FNalYeIRw9yjw2hNj 1Gw-ATr3CWbSR_JhH_Y

Twins training staff does it again. When I think of twins training staff I think of those doctors you hear about sometimes in the news that weren't actually doctors. The ones who somehow got into the hospital and started prescribing meds and before they knew it they were full fledged doctors, without the training. Thats what I think of.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-21-2012, 03:51 PM
So the solution this time was actually rest and rehab...interesting.

IdahoPilgrim
08-21-2012, 03:51 PM
My question is, if he's had this before (and I take him at his word for that) why didn't he recognize the symptoms himself? If he suspected it, did he never raise that possibility himself? And how many other doctors has he been to besides those on the Twins staff?

I have the same concerns about the Twins medical staff as everyone else, but I have to think there's more to the story than a couple of soundbites from Pavano himself, given in a moment of (understandable) frustration.

Mauerzy4Prez
08-21-2012, 03:52 PM
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7Ggt9KxDvCHB_FNalYeIRw9yjw2hNj 1Gw-ATr3CWbSR_JhH_Y

Twins training staff does it again. When I think of twins training staff I think of those doctors you hear about sometimes in the news that weren't actually doctors. The ones who somehow got into the hospital and started prescribing meds and before they knew it they were full fledged doctors, without the training. Thats what I think of.

LOL Nice... is this after they toppled the statue of Sadaam in Iraq or after the Medical staffs office was set on fire?

Mauerzy4Prez
08-21-2012, 03:53 PM
My question is, if he's had this before (and I take him at his word for that) why didn't he recognize the symptoms himself? If he suspected it, did he never raise that possibility himself? And how many other doctors has he been to besides those on the Twins staff?

I have the same concerns about the Twins medical staff as everyone else, but I have to think there's more to the story than a couple of soundbites from Pavano himself, given in a moment of (understandable) frustration.

Any other person than Pavano and I'd agree with your last point... Every time I hear him speak he holds himself accountable for his mistakes and sometimes others. He is a team guy, and if he is expressing frustration in the staff, it tells me that this was mostly on them.

SweetOne69
08-21-2012, 03:56 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, why would/should the medical staff examine the elbow when the player is complaining about a shoulder issue?

There is a major difference in location between rotator cuff weakness and a bruised humorous. Also if Pavano has had it before, couldn't have brought up his opinions with the doctors?

Thrylos
08-21-2012, 03:59 PM
That was so easy to see coming from miles away.

Capps is done too btw...

YourHouseIsMyHouse
08-21-2012, 04:05 PM
I'd rather hire some witch doctors or go with TCM before the Twins current staff.

TwinsMusings
08-21-2012, 04:16 PM
http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_21364660/minnesota-twins-carl-pavano-shut-down-season-after

Shipley's story has a bit more detail. From one of Pavano's quotes it sounds like there was more than one injury and he and the trainer did get the shoulder rehabbed, but still had pain. Does anybody remember when Pavano might have been hit on the arm by a come-backer causing the bruise? In spring training?

Hard to see how the Twins will be interested in bringing him back unless he is willing to take substantially less in guaranteed salary.

crarko
08-21-2012, 04:18 PM
If this was private practice there would likely be a malpractice suit brewing. I suppose the teams are indemnified in the CBA, though.

You wonder when Nishioka began moonlighting as a doctor...

jokin
08-21-2012, 04:18 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, why would/should the medical staff examine the elbow when the player is complaining about a shoulder issue?

There is a major difference in location between rotator cuff weakness and a bruised humorous. Also if Pavano has had it before, couldn't have brought up his opinions with the doctors?

If you can't laugh at the ridiculous state of the Twins medical staff, the diagnosis must be a bruised humorous.

gunnarthor
08-21-2012, 04:20 PM
Too bad. I liked Pavano. And this certainly doesn't look good for the medical staff. We'll see what Ryan says about it.

jokin
08-21-2012, 04:22 PM
Too bad. I liked Pavano. And this certainly doesn't look good for the medical staff. We'll see what Ryan says about it.

Where are all those folks who kept insisting all year that Ryan needs to be given more time to fully assess the situation?

Answer: Running for the tall grass...

Mr. Ed
08-21-2012, 04:24 PM
That was so easy to see coming from miles away.

Capps is done too btw...

yes

and yes

Go into next year with co-closers. AND

get another set up guy ready, so Gardy can figure out how to use Perkins/Burton besides the 9th inning after some slug has blown the close game open.

Thrylos
08-21-2012, 04:25 PM
I think that the medical staff screwed up big time this season with (Chronologically) :

Zumaya (evaluation when they signed him)
Baker
Wimmers
Capps
Pavano
Plouffe (I hope I am wrong, but, again...)

Here are some fun numbers.

The cost of the Twins' 12 highest paid pitchers this February:
(in $MM)

Pavano 8.5
Baker 6.5
Liriano 5.5
Blackburn 4.75
Capps 4.5
Marquis 3
Perkins 1.55
Burton .75
Zumaya .85
3 at .5

Total $37.4 M

$ wasted for medical reasons: 20.35 or 54.4%

$ wasted for bad contracts (Blackburn and Marquis) : 7.75 or 20.7 %

Total Money wasted for medical reasons and bad contracts about 75%

So these Twins threw away 3/4 of what they spend for their 2012 pitching staff... How can a team not suck if they do that?

jokin
08-21-2012, 04:27 PM
I think that the medical staff screwed up big time this season with (Chronologically) :

Zumaya (evaluation when they signed him)
Baker
Wimmers
Capps
Pavano
Plouffe (I hope I am wrong, but, again...)

Here are some fun numbers.

The cost of the Twins' 12 highest paid pitchers this February:
(in $MM)

Pavano 8.5
Baker 6.5
Liriano 5.5
Blackburn 4.75
Capps 4.5
Marquis 3
Perkins 1.55
Burton .75
Zumaya .85
3 at .5

Total $37.4 M

$ wasted for medical reasons: 20.35 or 54.4%

$ wasted for bad contracts (Blackburn and Marquis) : 7.75 or 20.7 %

Total Money wasted for medical reasons and bad contracts about 75%

So these Twins threw away 3/4 of what they spend for their 2012 pitching staff... How can a team not suck if they do that?

Stop writing so quickly, Ryan can't assess the situation that fast.

jokin
08-21-2012, 04:30 PM
I think that the medical staff screwed up big time this season with (Chronologically) :

Zumaya (evaluation when they signed him)
Baker
Wimmers
Capps
Pavano
Plouffe (I hope I am wrong, but, again...)

Here are some fun numbers.

The cost of the Twins' 12 highest paid pitchers this February:
(in $MM)

Pavano 8.5
Baker 6.5
Liriano 5.5
Blackburn 4.75
Capps 4.5
Marquis 3
Perkins 1.55
Burton .75
Zumaya .85
3 at .5

Total $37.4 M

$ wasted for medical reasons: 20.35 or 54.4%

$ wasted for bad contracts (Blackburn and Marquis) : 7.75 or 20.7 %

Total Money wasted for medical reasons and bad contracts about 75%

So these Twins threw away 3/4 of what they spend for their 2012 pitching staff... How can a team not suck if they do that?

Does TR get a Good Stewardship Conduct Medal for the ~$2M saved by dumping Liriano?

DPJ
08-21-2012, 04:32 PM
Does TR get a Good Stewardship Conduct Medal for the ~$2M saved by dumping Liriano?

The Pohlad wallet salutes this post.

twinsnorth49
08-21-2012, 04:33 PM
Too bad. I liked Pavano. And this certainly doesn't look good for the medical staff. We'll see what Ryan says about it.

Where are all those folks who kept insisting all year that Ryan needs to be given more time to fully assess the situation?

Answer: Running for the tall grass...

I'm still here, I believe Ryan will get this organization all on the same page and moving forward by next year. I'm certainly not going to say everything has gone according to plan and that hasn't burned some goodwill but I'm willing to wait until next year to see how he reacts, not how he overreacts.

Winston Smith
08-21-2012, 04:33 PM
Makes me wonder about Slowey and his wrist injury. He was never the same after he came back, how has Hardy been doing he was injured all the time, isn't that one of the reasons he had to go? Way way to many of these injury screw ups, imo.

jokin
08-21-2012, 04:38 PM
Too bad. I liked Pavano. And this certainly doesn't look good for the medical staff. We'll see what Ryan says about it.

Where are all those folks who kept insisting all year that Ryan needs to be given more time to fully assess the situation?

Answer: Running for the tall grass...

I'm still here, I believe Ryan will get this organization all on the same page and moving forward by next year. I'm certainly not going to say everything has gone according to plan and that hasn't burned some goodwill but I'm willing to wait until next year to see how he reacts, not how he overreacts.

With regards to the pitching staff, I'm hard-pressed in saying that anything has gone according to plan. The closest I can come to finding was Jared Burton--- But was Burton a plan? Or more of a prayer?

jwestbrock
08-21-2012, 04:43 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, why would/should the medical staff examine the elbow when the player is complaining about a shoulder issue?

There is a major difference in location between rotator cuff weakness and a bruised humorous. Also if Pavano has had it before, couldn't have brought up his opinions with the doctors?

If I was them I would do both, every time. In high school I had shoulder/lat weakness that cause me to drop my elbow and it messed with my elbow. I also broke my hand and had hand/wrist weakness. The doctor said I was good and didn't need any rehab, so most any high school senior would do, I went out and started throwing, my first bullpen session I had a very sharp pain in my shoulder and I was done for the year because I was overcompensating for my wrist with my shoulder.

Moral of the story: it is a decent idea to check both on the chance one caused the other. In this case maybe the bruise caused the shoulder or throwing with shoulder issues caused the bruise.

one_eyed_jack
08-21-2012, 04:44 PM
Too bad. Had Pavano been healthy and had even an average season by his standards, it could have made a big difference.

I'm going to refrain from the joining the chorus of critics dumping on the Twins medical staff. I'm not a doctor, and I don't see what they do every day. So I don't feel as though I have the expertise or knowledge of what they do to make a judgment about their performance. I do know that their job is not easy. There's often not a clear best course of action, and players aren't always entirely honest and forthcoming.

I'm not trying to defend them, maybe they really are awful at what they do.

I just don't know enough about it to play armchair medical expert. Others obviously feel differently, and that's fine.

It's a common phenomenon on issues of the day. Like when there's a major US Supreme Court case and suddenly everyone and their grandmother is a constitutional law scholar. Or when we're involved in armed conflict, anyone who has ever served in the military, known anyone who has served in the military, or seen both Platoon and Saving Private Ryan is apparently qualified to appear on TV with the phrase "military expert" next to their name.

gunnarthor
08-21-2012, 05:02 PM
With regards to the pitching staff, I'm hard-pressed in saying that anything has gone according to plan. The closest I can come to finding was Jared Burton--- But was Burton a plan? Or more of a prayer?

I think the team did a pretty good job fixing/restocking the bullpen, honestly. Coming into the season that was everyone's nightmare. Before the season there wasn't a lot of concern over the starting pitching (some but it fell behind the bullpen and lineup).

As to the medical staff, I'm interested in what Ryan says about it. I'm not an expert so I won't accuse them of screwing things up (others are doing that enough anyway). But we certainly aren't the only team going ballistic over our medical staff - KC and Boston are right there with us.

jokin
08-21-2012, 05:05 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, why would/should the medical staff examine the elbow when the player is complaining about a shoulder issue?

There is a major difference in location between rotator cuff weakness and a bruised humorous. Also if Pavano has had it before, couldn't have brought up his opinions with the doctors?

If I was them I would do both, every time. In high school I had shoulder/lat weakness that cause me to drop my elbow and it messed with my elbow. I also broke my hand and had hand/wrist weakness. The doctor said I was good and didn't need any rehab, so most any high school senior would do, I went out and started throwing, my first bullpen session I had a very sharp pain in my shoulder and I was done for the year because I was overcompensating for my wrist with my shoulder.

Moral of the story: it is a decent idea to check both on the chance one caused the other. In this case maybe the bruise caused the shoulder or throwing with shoulder issues caused the bruise.

Apparently the Twins Medical Staff might want to get current in the field and go browse through the "Dizzy Dean Injury Cascade" syndrome, peculiar to pitchers. It's only been common knowledge now, for what...? 70 years or so.

Highabove
08-21-2012, 05:08 PM
One other item to think about. At one point in July, there were 20 pitchers on the DL from Beloit-up to the Major league Club.

Is this Organization capable of keeping their Arms healthy??

jokin
08-21-2012, 05:11 PM
With regards to the pitching staff, I'm hard-pressed in saying that anything has gone according to plan. The closest I can come to finding was Jared Burton--- But was Burton a plan? Or more of a prayer?

I think the team did a pretty good job fixing/restocking the bullpen, honestly. Coming into the season that was everyone's nightmare. Before the season there wasn't a lot of concern over the starting pitching (some but it fell behind the bullpen and lineup).

As to the medical staff, I'm interested in what Ryan says about it. I'm not an expert so I won't accuse them of screwing things up (others are doing that enough anyway). But we certainly aren't the only team going ballistic over our medical staff - KC and Boston are right there with us.

I come down on the side of Nolan Ryan, Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven and others. It comes down to training for proper mechanics, developing arm strength by throwing more, not less and regular lower body anaerobic conditioning.

twinsnorth49
08-21-2012, 05:19 PM
With regards to the pitching staff, I'm hard-pressed in saying that anything has gone according to plan. The closest I can come to finding was Jared Burton--- But was Burton a plan? Or more of a prayer?

I think the team did a pretty good job fixing/restocking the bullpen, honestly. Coming into the season that was everyone's nightmare. Before the season there wasn't a lot of concern over the starting pitching (some but it fell behind the bullpen and lineup).

As to the medical staff, I'm interested in what Ryan says about it. I'm not an expert so I won't accuse them of screwing things up (others are doing that enough anyway). But we certainly aren't the only team going ballistic over our medical staff - KC and Boston are right there with us.

I come down on the side of Nolan Ryan, Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven and others. It comes down to training for proper mechanics, developing arm strength by throwing more, not less and regular lower body anaerobic conditioning.

So the strength and conditioning coaches have to go too? Or are they part of the medical staff? Holy night of the long knives, part deux.

Highabove
08-21-2012, 05:21 PM
You do not have to be a Doctor to realize that the Medical Staff is misdiagnosing injures OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!

NoCal
08-21-2012, 05:21 PM
I suspect that a player making millions of dollars a year - such as Pavano, or Span - probably has his own personal trainer, and a very attentive agent. I also imagine that the final decision on playing, and even medical procedures, lies with the player and agent first, with consultation with the medical staff and outside doctors. Judging by other player's around baseball (Stephen Drew, Carl Crawford, David Ortiz) who have had injury issues that become controversial, I think that a team's medical staff is in a very difficult position mediating between competing interests. The Twins caution around injuries and roster decisions probably is strongly influenced by agents looking out for their clients' - and their own - economic interests.
I also think there is a story here which could use some research.......

Paul
08-21-2012, 05:22 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, why would/should the medical staff examine the elbow when the player is complaining about a shoulder issue?

There is a major difference in location between rotator cuff weakness and a bruised humorous. Also if Pavano has had it before, couldn't have brought up his opinions with the doctors?

The humerus bone is the upper arm bone. It connects the elbow and shoulder.

jokin
08-21-2012, 05:30 PM
With regards to the pitching staff, I'm hard-pressed in saying that anything has gone according to plan. The closest I can come to finding was Jared Burton--- But was Burton a plan? Or more of a prayer?

I think the team did a pretty good job fixing/restocking the bullpen, honestly. Coming into the season that was everyone's nightmare. Before the season there wasn't a lot of concern over the starting pitching (some but it fell behind the bullpen and lineup).

As to the medical staff, I'm interested in what Ryan says about it. I'm not an expert so I won't accuse them of screwing things up (others are doing that enough anyway). But we certainly aren't the only team going ballistic over our medical staff - KC and Boston are right there with us.

I come down on the side of Nolan Ryan, Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven and others. It comes down to training for proper mechanics, developing arm strength by throwing more, not less and regular lower body anaerobic conditioning.

So the strength and conditioning coaches have to go too? Or are they part of the medical staff? Holy night of the long knives, part deux.

I think it's fair to say they are vitally interlinked, especially concerning injury avoidance/prevention and rehab/maintanence once injury has occurred.

ofx1
08-21-2012, 05:50 PM
You do not have to be a Doctor to realize that the Medical Staff is misdiagnosing injures OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!

This is true. And also annoying, and beyond "getting to be" a pattern. It never made the news, but when Mauer wrecked his knee as a rookie, the Twins med staff completely botched his rehab too. The Mauers didn't want to make it public for their own (I'm sure good) reasons. I only know this because one of my sisters is friends w/Theresa, and one of my nephews (one of her kids) is friends/played b-ball with Joe at Cretin...

The Twins, IMO, really need to reevaluate their entire med staff...

PseudoSABR
08-21-2012, 06:00 PM
I suspect that a player making millions of dollars a year - such as Pavano, or Span - probably has his own personal trainer, and a very attentive agent. I also imagine that the final decision on playing, and even medical procedures, lies with the player and agent first, with consultation with the medical staff and outside doctors. Judging by other player's around baseball (Stephen Drew, Carl Crawford, David Ortiz) who have had injury issues that become controversial, I think that a team's medical staff is in a very difficult position mediating between competing interests. The Twins caution around injuries and roster decisions probably is strongly influenced by agents looking out for their clients' - and their own - economic interests.
I also think there is a story here which could use some research.......Nice first post. As much as the Twins medical staff seems to leave much to be desired; it's hard for me to believe that their culpability is so obvious or so legitimate, and that the Twins would be so willfully ignorant and stubborn to stick with an ineffective staff out of some myopic notion of loyalty.

jokin
08-21-2012, 06:03 PM
I suspect that a player making millions of dollars a year - such as Pavano, or Span - probably has his own personal trainer, and a very attentive agent. I also imagine that the final decision on playing, and even medical procedures, lies with the player and agent first, with consultation with the medical staff and outside doctors. Judging by other player's around baseball (Stephen Drew, Carl Crawford, David Ortiz) who have had injury issues that become controversial, I think that a team's medical staff is in a very difficult position mediating between competing interests. The Twins caution around injuries and roster decisions probably is strongly influenced by agents looking out for their clients' - and their own - economic interests.
I also think there is a story here which could use some research.......Nice first post. As much as the Twins medical staff seems to leave much to be desired; it's hard for me to believe that their culpability is so obvious or so legitimate, and that the Twins would be so willfully ignorant and stubborn to stick with an ineffective staff out of some myopic notion of loyalty.

And yet the circumstantial evidence continues to ooze from the horrible results, as well as from former and current players' testimony of their bad experiences with said staff/FO.

John Bonnes
08-21-2012, 06:06 PM
http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_21364660/minnesota-twins-carl-pavano-shut-down-season-after

Shipley's story has a bit more detail. From one of Pavano's quotes it sounds like there was more than one injury and he and the trainer did get the shoulder rehabbed, but still had pain. Does anybody remember when Pavano might have been hit on the arm by a come-backer causing the bruise? In spring training?

Hard to see how the Twins will be interested in bringing him back unless he is willing to take substantially less in guaranteed salary.

Pretty good story by Shipley.

jokin
08-21-2012, 06:07 PM
I suspect that a player making millions of dollars a year - such as Pavano, or Span - probably has his own personal trainer, and a very attentive agent. I also imagine that the final decision on playing, and even medical procedures, lies with the player and agent first, with consultation with the medical staff and outside doctors. Judging by other player's around baseball (Stephen Drew, Carl Crawford, David Ortiz) who have had injury issues that become controversial, I think that a team's medical staff is in a very difficult position mediating between competing interests. The Twins caution around injuries and roster decisions probably is strongly influenced by agents looking out for their clients' - and their own - economic interests.
I also think there is a story here which could use some research.......Nice first post. As much as the Twins medical staff seems to leave much to be desired; it's hard for me to believe that their culpability is so obvious or so legitimate, and that the Twins would be so willfully ignorant and stubborn to stick with an ineffective staff out of some myopic notion of loyalty.

Not sure if the Twins FO notion of loyalty is myopic, perhaps just a shared fealty to ineptitude?

jokin
08-21-2012, 06:18 PM
http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_21364660/minnesota-twins-carl-pavano-shut-down-season-after

Shipley's story has a bit more detail. From one of Pavano's quotes it sounds like there was more than one injury and he and the trainer did get the shoulder rehabbed, but still had pain. Does anybody remember when Pavano might have been hit on the arm by a come-backer causing the bruise? In spring training?

Hard to see how the Twins will be interested in bringing him back unless he is willing to take substantially less in guaranteed salary.

Pretty good story by Shipley.

Good story, yes, but as many questions that are answered, at least as many more come up. One trip to specialist Dr. Altchek in New York City solves what apparently wasn't figured out by the entire unnamed "Twins medical staff". Twins Assistant Trainer Tony Leo is praised for "working his butt off" on Pavano's rehab, but all for naught and apparently improperly overseen by the "Head Trainer" when no results were forthcoming due to working with an improper diagnosis in the first place. If this was just one isolated incident, it could be chalked up to an unfortunate isolated event, but this has happened over and over and over and the Twins FO and their apologists have little solid ground left to stand on to plead their case.

Thrylos
08-21-2012, 06:21 PM
A couple of interesting quotes from Shipley's article (http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_21364660/minnesota-twins-carl-pavano-shut-down-season-after). Really good stuff (and emphasis mine) :


An MRI and examination by specialist Dr. David Altchek of the pitcher's sore right shoulder, bothering Pavano since spring training, revealed a bruise on his humerus bone that requires rest alone to heal.

and down a little more


Pavano, 36, had trouble reaching full velocity on his pitches throughout spring training. He and the team seemed to believe that if he kept pitching, he'd have a breakthrough from the shoulder pain and weakness.

A couple of things are really scary here:

- First of all he was hurt since ST (Like Baker - pretty much but different part of his body) and they kept trotting him around so basically giving up on every fifth game.
- This whole attitude that if something is hurt because of a repetitive motion and hurts while you are repeating that motion, if you keep doing it will hurt less, is Medieval. Like if you are running barefoot on gravel I am sure that it will hurt less at some point. Eventually. Keep doing it son... it builds character.

This goes beyond the medical staff. It shows front office and pitching coach and manager attitudes as well.

jokin
08-21-2012, 06:28 PM
A couple of interesting quotes from Shipley's article (http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_21364660/minnesota-twins-carl-pavano-shut-down-season-after). Really good stuff (and emphasis mine) :


An MRI and examination by specialist Dr. David Altchek of the pitcher's sore right shoulder, bothering Pavano since spring training, revealed a bruise on his humerus bone that requires rest alone to heal.

and down a little more


Pavano, 36, had trouble reaching full velocity on his pitches throughout spring training. He and the team seemed to believe that if he kept pitching, he'd have a breakthrough from the shoulder pain and weakness.

A couple of things are really scary here:

- First of all he was hurt since ST (Like Baker - pretty much but different part of his body) and they kept trotting him around so basically giving up on every fifth game.
- This whole attitude that if something is hurt because of a repetitive motion and hurts while you are repeating that motion, if you keep doing it will hurt less, is Medieval. Like if you are running barefoot on gravel I am sure that it will hurt less at some point. Eventually. Keep doing it son... it builds character.

This goes beyond the medical staff. It shows front office and pitching coach and manager attitudes as well.

i'm sure there's a metric for DL time somewhere, surely the Twins have to be at the top for 2011-12. What does this systemically dire situation say to the potential free agents and their respective agents who might be considering the Twins as a potential fit in the offseason?

Seth Stohs
08-21-2012, 06:41 PM
Pavano went on to say he'd take the blame. As he should. After all, ANY Twins player who has so much as a hangnail and doesn't get several opinions outside of the Twins so-called medical staff should accept the blame for just being stupid.


Well said!!!!!

jorgie5150
08-21-2012, 06:48 PM
2083

snepp
08-21-2012, 07:12 PM
If you can't laugh at the ridiculous state of the Twins medical staff, the diagnosis must be a bruised humorous.

I'm going to have to recommend rest and rehabilitation for that.

Highabove
08-21-2012, 07:15 PM
The Twins Medical Staff should really update their methods of Treatment.

http://www.itstrulyrandom.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/leech2.jpg

DPJ
08-21-2012, 07:21 PM
Twins outfielder Denard Span was supposed to undergo a Magnetic Resonance Imaging exam on his clavicle today, but he couldn't go through with it.
Why? Well, anyone who has had an MRI knows that many of those machines have chambers that are very confined. Span revealed today that he's claustrophobic and just couldn't go through with the exam - and that was after taking a few milligrams of Valium and being strapped to a table.
"I didn't have enough Valium," he said.
I have covered players who are claustrophobic and wanted to keep that a secret. Span is the first one to admit it on the record. He knows he might take some flack for it.
"I'm not happy about it, either," he said.
Span said he does feel better and actually wants to take a few swings and see how he feels. If he has to got back in and try to get another MRI, he will. He's relieved that he was able to make it through a MRI of his neck yesterday.
The Twins might be running out of patience, however, if this goes on more than a couple more days. Stay tuned.


Sweet Jesus are you kidding me?

Bark's Lounge
08-21-2012, 07:43 PM
Who the hell needs sitcoms and daytime dramas if you have the Minnesota Twins... You can't make this S%@t up!

jokin
08-21-2012, 07:44 PM
Twins outfielder Denard Span was supposed to undergo a Magnetic Resonance Imaging exam on his clavicle today, but he couldn't go through with it.
Why? Well, anyone who has had an MRI knows that many of those machines have chambers that are very confined. Span revealed today that he's claustrophobic and just couldn't go through with the exam - and that was after taking a few milligrams of Valium and being strapped to a table.
"I didn't have enough Valium," he said.
I have covered players who are claustrophobic and wanted to keep that a secret. Span is the first one to admit it on the record. He knows he might take some flack for it.
"I'm not happy about it, either," he said.
Span said he does feel better and actually wants to take a few swings and see how he feels. If he has to got back in and try to get another MRI, he will. He's relieved that he was able to make it through a MRI of his neck yesterday.
The Twins might be running out of patience, however, if this goes on more than a couple more days. Stay tuned.


Sweet Jesus are you kidding me?

Please tell me that is satire. Give me the The Onion or Harvard Lampoon link. please!

Thrylos
08-21-2012, 07:48 PM
Twins outfielder Denard Span was supposed to undergo a Magnetic Resonance Imaging exam on his clavicle today, but he couldn't go through with it.
Why? Well, anyone who has had an MRI knows that many of those machines have chambers that are very confined. Span revealed today that he's claustrophobic and just couldn't go through with the exam - and that was after taking a few milligrams of Valium and being strapped to a table.
"I didn't have enough Valium," he said.
I have covered players who are claustrophobic and wanted to keep that a secret. Span is the first one to admit it on the record. He knows he might take some flack for it.
"I'm not happy about it, either," he said.
Span said he does feel better and actually wants to take a few swings and see how he feels. If he has to got back in and try to get another MRI, he will. He's relieved that he was able to make it through a MRI of his neck yesterday.
The Twins might be running out of patience, however, if this goes on more than a couple more days. Stay tuned.


Sweet Jesus are you kidding me?

Ryan should have traded him at the deadline... huge mistake.

Highabove
08-21-2012, 07:52 PM
There are stand up MRI'S which really helps people with claustrophobia.

I don't get it.

Brock Beauchamp
08-21-2012, 08:05 PM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

jokin
08-21-2012, 08:09 PM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

Did you read through to the end?:

"The Twins might be running out of patience, however, if this goes on more than a couple more days. Stay tuned."

IdahoPilgrim
08-21-2012, 08:11 PM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

I would hope we're not doing that, but at the same time if we're paying a guy several million dollars a year to play, we have the right to ask the player to assist in whatever it takes to get them back healthy and on the field. Certainly we can try and work with him and fine a way to get the medical information we need that accomodates his phobia, and it sounds like Span is trying to be cooperative, but I can understand the fan's frustrations when a story like this gets out.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-21-2012, 08:18 PM
Twins outfielder Denard Span was supposed to undergo a Magnetic Resonance Imaging exam on his clavicle today, but he couldn't go through with it.
Why? Well, anyone who has had an MRI knows that many of those machines have chambers that are very confined. Span revealed today that he's claustrophobic and just couldn't go through with the exam - and that was after taking a few milligrams of Valium and being strapped to a table.
"I didn't have enough Valium," he said.
I have covered players who are claustrophobic and wanted to keep that a secret. Span is the first one to admit it on the record. He knows he might take some flack for it.
"I'm not happy about it, either," he said.
Span said he does feel better and actually wants to take a few swings and see how he feels. If he has to got back in and try to get another MRI, he will. He's relieved that he was able to make it through a MRI of his neck yesterday.
The Twins might be running out of patience, however, if this goes on more than a couple more days. Stay tuned.


Sweet Jesus are you kidding me?
As someone who just had an MRI on their head, let me tell you, those things ****ing suck. I had to do an open MRI to keep from freaking out, and even then I needed my GF in the roof to give me support, plus had to keep eyes closed the whole time. I'm not claustrophobic otherwise.

It's actually quite common that people can't do face first MRI's, I'm surprised they couldn't get him to an open one though.

USAFChief
08-21-2012, 08:18 PM
The obvious continued implications about the medical staff aside...

Whether or not Pavano was able to return to this year's rotation for a few Sept starts was and is meaningless. He was never going to be part of another Twins team.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-21-2012, 08:21 PM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

I would hope we're not doing that, but at the same time if we're paying a guy several million dollars a year to play, we have the right to ask the player to assist in whatever it takes to get them back healthy and on the field. Certainly we can try and work with him and fine a way to get the medical information we need that accomodates his phobia, and it sounds like Span is trying to be cooperative, but I can understand the fan's frustrations when a story like this gets out.
The next step would be for the doctors to put him under, but if that is the case typically they need a days lead time or so.

Highabove
08-21-2012, 08:23 PM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-21-2012, 08:27 PM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.

They are pretty rare, and I'm sure Span didn't think it would be an issue going into the MRI.
Since they are so rare (the stand up) it wouldn't be shocking if they weren't able to get him to one the same day.

jokin
08-21-2012, 08:29 PM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.

They are pretty rare, and I'm sure Span didn't think it would be an issue going into the MRI.
Since they are so rare (the stand up) it wouldn't be shocking if they weren't able to get him to one the same day.

Except that the phobia issue likely came up during his first MRI on Monday.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-21-2012, 08:33 PM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.

They are pretty rare, and I'm sure Span didn't think it would be an issue going into the MRI.
Since they are so rare (the stand up) it wouldn't be shocking if they weren't able to get him to one the same day.

Except that the phobia issue likely came up during his first MRI on Monday.
Why does it matter though? If he is to sore/injured to play, then he is to sore/injured to play.

Willihammer
08-21-2012, 08:55 PM
Shipley's story has a bit more detail. From one of Pavano's quotes it sounds like there was more than one injury and he and the trainer did get the shoulder rehabbed, but still had pain. Does anybody remember when Pavano might have been hit on the arm by a come-backer causing the bruise? In spring training?

I for one can't.

In defense of the medical staff, the Twins have suffered 2 unique injuries which the staff is not likely to mistake ever again.

First is Moon Shot Scott.
Initial diagnosis: Flexor tendon
Final diagnosis: Ulnar Collateral Ligament. Very close proximity, these two. (http://newspaper.li/static/10f546a07a697d4e8ed00534b614ec06.jpg)

Its easy to image Moon coming to the doctors, saying "its sore here" and pointing to his elbow just off the UCL. Maybe, maybe not, did that happen however. More investigation is needed certainly.

Second is Pava no-no Mutombo. Obviously the "its hurts here" arrow pointed particularly high on the Humerus bone, very close if not exactly on the shoulder. Now if you were a doctor, and would you suspect a bruised bone or a much more common, shoulder injury? I think at 36 and following two consecutive 220+ IP seasons, the ligaments are more suspect, not the bones.

In conclusion, maybe some of you expect the Twins medical staff to be Dr. House for their players. I think they have encountered a strange and unlikely string of pitcher injuries that caused mis-diagnoses which they are unlikely to repeat.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-21-2012, 09:00 PM
It should be noted yet again, that even the 2nd opinion doctor didn't know Baker needed Tommy John surgery until they actually cut the arm open.

denarded
08-21-2012, 09:17 PM
One other item to think about. At one point in July, there were 20 pitchers on the DL from Beloit-up to the Major league Club.

Is this Organization capable of keeping their Arms healthy??

have you compared that to the other mlb teams?

Highabove
08-21-2012, 09:21 PM
One other item to think about. At one point in July, there were 20 pitchers on the DL from Beloit-up to the Major league Club.

Is this Organization capable of keeping their Arms healthy??

have you compared that to the other mlb teams?

Yes I have, Start with the rest of the Division.

TheLeviathan
08-21-2012, 11:51 PM
If you question that the medical staff can be this bad because no team would stick with such ineffective garbage for this long to their own detriment: I offer Nick Blackburn as a rebuttal.

Kobs
08-21-2012, 11:58 PM
I don't know that you can chalk up Baker as a misdiagnosis because of the Tommy John surgery, they didn't decide to do that until they opened him up. I'm curious as to whether most veteran pitchers look like they could use a new ligament when you get in there.

Brock Beauchamp
08-22-2012, 06:47 AM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.

And what does that have to do with my statement again?

Brock Beauchamp
08-22-2012, 07:39 AM
I don't know that you can chalk up Baker as a misdiagnosis because of the Tommy John surgery, they didn't decide to do that until they opened him up. I'm curious as to whether most veteran pitchers look like they could use a new ligament when you get in there.

Given the stress put on the arm during pitching, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if most vets "needed" TJ surgery.

Brock Beauchamp
08-22-2012, 07:40 AM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.

They are pretty rare, and I'm sure Span didn't think it would be an issue going into the MRI.
Since they are so rare (the stand up) it wouldn't be shocking if they weren't able to get him to one the same day.

Except that the phobia issue likely came up during his first MRI on Monday.

Which is probably why he had the Valium on hand. Given his concussion problems, this isn't Span's first go-round in the MRI machine. When it comes to a phobia, some days are probably better than others (and the meds work better). This was probably just one of the bad days. I'm not going to blame a guy for having a crippling phobia of an MRI machine. While I've never had an MRI, I've heard plenty of horror stories from people who don't like enclosed spaces. From what I know of the situation, it's not terribly uncommon.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-22-2012, 09:35 AM
One other item to think about. At one point in July, there were 20 pitchers on the DL from Beloit-up to the Major league Club.

Is this Organization capable of keeping their Arms healthy??

have you compared that to the other mlb teams?

Yes I have, Start with the rest of the Division.
The Royals have had 6 guys get TJS this season.

Your move.

diehardtwinsfan
08-22-2012, 10:14 AM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.


There are options here, and typically hospitals have both. My brother in law is an MRI tech and has operated both types of units. Typically the open MRI is for those who cannot fit into a standard MRI (which I'll admit is a bit of an experience even for someone who is mildy claustrophobic). I'm trying to figure out why they just didn't let him use the open...

that said, standup/open MRI's exist, but they aren't exactly common. My brother in law got to operate one in Fort Wayne, IN... There's only 1 in the entire city, and it was brand new.

Brock Beauchamp
08-22-2012, 10:24 AM
Typically the open MRI is for those who cannot fit into a standard MRI (which I'll admit is a bit of an experience even for someone who is mildy claustrophobic). I'm trying to figure out why they just didn't let him use the open...

It was on the DL.

Somebody had to say it.

chuchadoro
08-22-2012, 10:33 AM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

I think it's a pretty reasonable expectation for a professional athlete to get the necessary diagnostics done on an injury. Athletes can disagree with their team about the course of treatment, not about getting diagnostic work done when said player has been wasting a spot on the roster for a week. Span is not dangling from the top of the IDS Center washing windows or being asked to climb into a box full of snakes. He's being asked to have a very common, safe test done to determine if the Twins should continue to waste another bench spot. What if Plouffe wakes up tomorrow and has a newly manifested aerophobia? I guess we should pat him on the back and say "It's ok, big guy. You can just play the home games.".

Brock Beauchamp
08-22-2012, 10:43 AM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

I think it's a pretty reasonable expectation for a professional athlete to get the necessary diagnostics done on an injury. Athletes can disagree with their team about the course of treatment, not about getting diagnostic work done when said player has been wasting a spot on the roster for a week. Span is not dangling from the top of the IDS Center washing windows or being asked to climb into a box full of snakes. He's being asked to have a very common, safe test done to determine if the Twins should continue to waste another bench spot. What if Plouffe wakes up tomorrow and has a newly manifested aerophobia? I guess we should pat him on the back and say "It's ok, big guy. You can just play the home games.".


Phobia: phobia (from the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): φόβος, [I]Phůbos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)), meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is, when used in the context of clinical psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_psychology), a type of anxiety disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety_disorder), usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational. In the event the phobia cannot be avoided entirely the sufferer will endure the situation or object with markeddistress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_(medicine)) and significant interference in social or occupational activities.

It's not a matter of just "bucking up" and getting through it. Phobias are real mental issues based on an irrational fear of something. Span has had countless MRIs in the past yet we've never heard of this happening so I'm not going to chalk this up to "not trying" or just "not wanting to do something". He apparently tried to calm himself down and it didn't work. I'm not going to fault the guy for that.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-22-2012, 11:14 AM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

There are open stand up MRI'S

Google it.


There are options here, and typically hospitals have both. My brother in law is an MRI tech and has operated both types of units. Typically the open MRI is for those who cannot fit into a standard MRI (which I'll admit is a bit of an experience even for someone who is mildy claustrophobic). I'm trying to figure out why they just didn't let him use the open...

that said, standup/open MRI's exist, but they aren't exactly common. My brother in law got to operate one in Fort Wayne, IN... There's only 1 in the entire city, and it was brand new.

Yup, Standup MRI's are very rare. "Open" MRI's are more common, but still somewhat rare. And even those are pretty intense for people with even mild claustrophobic issues.

It has nothing to do with "toughing" it out or anything of that nature, some people just can't deal with that ****.

DAM DC Twins Fans
08-22-2012, 11:15 AM
[QUOTE=Brock Beauchamp;48193]So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


It's not a matter of just "bucking up" and getting through it. Phobias are real mental issues based on an irrational fear of something. Span has had countless MRIs in the past yet we've never heard of this happening so I'm not going to chalk this up to "not trying" or just "not wanting to do something". He apparently tried to calm himself down and it didn't work. I'm not going to fault the guy for that.

As one of many who have a fear of flying--lets not mock phobias. I get on a plane every couple of years--thats all I can bear to do--always a non-stop flight (less takeoffs and landings) only to Europe, if I need to go somewhere in the states I drive. (And yes post-9/11 airport security makes it worse-I always look and am nervous to the screeners).

If Span has gone thru multiple MRIs being claustrophobic, good for him, dont get on his case when he finally couldnt do it.

USAFChief
08-22-2012, 11:21 AM
Typically the open MRI is for those who cannot fit into a standard MRI (which I'll admit is a bit of an experience even for someone who is mildy claustrophobic). I'm trying to figure out why they just didn't let him use the open...

It was on the DL.

Somebody had to say it.

Actually it wasnt on the DL. It had a vague but "mild" electrical malfunction, and the maintenance staff was convinced that a few days of rest and rehab would let the problem solve itself, saving the time and cost of having expensive electricians come in to diagnose and fix the problem.

Brock Beauchamp
08-22-2012, 11:22 AM
As one of many who have a fear of flying--lets not mock phobias. I get on a plane every couple of years--thats all I can bear to do--always a non-stop flight (less takeoffs and landings) only to Europe, if I need to go somewhere in the states I drive. (And yes post-9/11 airport security makes it worse-I always look and am nervous to the screeners).

If Span has gone thru multiple MRIs being claustrophobic, good for him, dont get on his case when he finally couldnt do it.

I have a near-crippling fear of heights. I get dizzy, lose my balance, and a host of other things that scare the hell out of me. Do I know this is not a rational response? Absolutely. Does that change anything? Absolutely not. I've done over 180MPH on a motorcycle, raced cars at over 150MPH. Didn't scare me a lick.

But put me on a three story roof and I lose my freakin' mind. Explain that to me.

Riverbrian
08-22-2012, 11:27 AM
[QUOTE=Brock Beauchamp;48193]So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?


It's not a matter of just "bucking up" and getting through it. Phobias are real mental issues based on an irrational fear of something. Span has had countless MRIs in the past yet we've never heard of this happening so I'm not going to chalk this up to "not trying" or just "not wanting to do something". He apparently tried to calm himself down and it didn't work. I'm not going to fault the guy for that.

As one of many who have a fear of flying--lets not mock phobias. I get on a plane every couple of years--thats all I can bear to do--always a non-stop flight (less takeoffs and landings) only to Europe, if I need to go somewhere in the states I drive. (And yes post-9/11 airport security makes it worse-I always look and am nervous to the screeners).

If Span has gone thru multiple MRIs being claustrophobic, good for him, dont get on his case when he finally couldnt do it.

I agree... People are People... I can't stand the sound of styrofoam being rubbed together. It literally brings me to my knees. Don't know if there is an official phobia for it but I have it. Sometimes I have to leave the room at X-mas time. If Span has an affliction of sorts. It's easy to think of him as a human being and respect that.

My problem with flying is that I always end up sitting next to a guy who is 500 pounds and he spills over to my seat. It's uncanny how often that happens so I also prefer to drive.

Brock Beauchamp
08-22-2012, 11:28 AM
Actually it wasnt on the DL. It had a vague but "mild" electrical malfunction, and the maintenance staff was convinced that a few days of rest and rehab would let the problem solve itself, saving the time and cost of having expensive electricians come in to diagnose and fix the problem.

Or maybe the MRI machine had electrophobia.

chuchadoro
08-22-2012, 12:18 PM
So now we're mocking guys for having phobias? Really?

What if Plouffe wakes up tomorrow and has a newly manifested aerophobia? I guess we should pat him on the back and say "It's ok, big guy. You can just play the home games.".

Anyone want to tackle this hypothetical?

chuchadoro
08-22-2012, 12:24 PM
Just to get this straight: Rational fears affecting performance (i.e. running into walls, beanballs, getting "Swish-ioka-ed") are unacceptable. Irrational fears (MRIs, planes, heights, clowns) are part of the fallibility of humans and exempt from criticism.

Willihammer
08-22-2012, 12:25 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't believe phobias suddenly afflict people. And so, anyone with aerophobia would not waste his time pursuing a MLB career.

chuchadoro
08-22-2012, 12:32 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't believe phobias suddenly afflict people. And so, anyone with aerophobia would not waste his time pursuing a MLB career.

Maybe I could have phrased it like "Plouffe's aerophobia became uncontrollable" but now we're nitpicking. Royce White's aerophobia has been well documented and he's still "wasting his time" pursuing an NBA career.

Brock Beauchamp
08-22-2012, 12:54 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't believe phobias suddenly afflict people. And so, anyone with aerophobia would not waste his time pursuing a MLB career.

Maybe I could have phrased it like "Plouffe's aerophobia became uncontrollable" but now we're nitpicking. Royce White's aerophobia has been well documented and he's still "wasting his time" pursuing an NBA career.

Simple, if a guy has a phobia of flying, you pay him less money based on performance and ability to play. You also try to find medication and/or therapy to relieve the situation. I still don't see why you publicly rip the guy for having that phobia. What good is that going to do? Are you going to shame the guy into getting over his irrational fears? You realize how a phobia and mental illness in general works, right?

Ultima Ratio
08-22-2012, 12:59 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't believe phobias suddenly afflict people. And so, anyone with aerophobia would not waste his time pursuing a MLB career.

Maybe I could have phrased it like "Plouffe's aerophobia became uncontrollable" but now we're nitpicking. Royce White's aerophobia has been well documented and he's still "wasting his time" pursuing an NBA career.

Not trying to be rude, but you need to go look up the condition and how it manifests itself. This hypothetical is absurd if you know the Royce White story you'd know that his anxiety doesn't prevent him from flying, it only makes him really weak and exhausted when the flight is over from the increased stress. He's found ways of managing it to the point where it doesn't have a great affect on him. A team would know this before signing a player where the job description includes frequent air travel. So again, if Plouffe had the condition, and was now playing MLB ball, it would be because he's got it under control for the most. Part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9TaK9fCI2U -- Royce White on his anxiety

Tangential.

Steeler's safety Ryan Clark has sickle cell trait (not full blown anemia) and cannot play in Denver. After playing in Denver a couple years ago he was hospitalized for days recovering. He's still a Steeler.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/mundy-expands-his-safety-net-role-647933/?p=1

Fire Dan Gladden
08-22-2012, 01:03 PM
Just to get this straight: Rational fears affecting performance (i.e. running into walls, beanballs, getting "Swish-ioka-ed") are unacceptable. Irrational fears (MRIs, planes, heights, clowns) are part of the fallibility of humans and exempt from criticism.

Your "rational" fears are a part of the game. If you could not master them, you could not play this game. The "irrational" fears are not typically part of the game. The ones that indirectly impact your ability to be a MLB player (ie flying) would be addressed far before you made it to the majors.

It sounds to me like Span was ready to battle his demons (he had drugs on hand), but for whatever reason it did not work. Why mock and ridicule Span for this?

Argue about the Twins unwillingness to put a player on the DL, not about Span's personal issue.

Fire Dan Gladden
08-22-2012, 01:05 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't believe phobias suddenly afflict people. And so, anyone with aerophobia would not waste his time pursuing a MLB career.

Maybe I could have phrased it like "Plouffe's aerophobia became uncontrollable" but now we're nitpicking. Royce White's aerophobia has been well documented and he's still "wasting his time" pursuing an NBA career.

Not trying to be rude, but you need to go look up the condition and how it manifests itself. This hypothetical is absurd if you know the Royce White story you'd know that his anxiety doesn't prevent him from flying, it only makes him really weak and exhausted when the flight is over from the increased stress. He's found ways of managing it to the point where it doesn't have a great affect on him. A team would know this before signing a player where the job description includes frequent air travel. So again, if Plouffe had the condition, and was now playing MLB ball, it would be because he's got it under control for the most. Part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9TaK9fCI2U -- Royce White on his anxiety

Tangential.

Steeler's safety Ryan Clark has sickle cell trait (not full blown anemia) and cannot play in Denver. After playing in Denver a couple years ago he was hospitalized for days recovering. He's still a Steeler.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/mundy-expands-his-safety-net-role-647933/?p=1

Grienke, Hamilton, these examples are all over the place. How many stories have we read about athletes with diabetes?

chuchadoro
08-22-2012, 01:56 PM
Grienke, Hamilton, these examples are all over the place. How many stories have we read about athletes with diabetes?[/QUOTE]

I'm not a psychologist but the difference with Grienke and Hamilton (IMO) is their disorder can consume their entire lives while Span's acute disorder requires him to endure a noisy box for 45 minutes.

Willihammer
08-22-2012, 02:24 PM
Yeah I don't understand it either. Then again, I don't understand hoarding or the sudden allergies to gluten but plenty of people seem to struggle with that too. Anytime you have entire swaths of the population who suffer identical afflictions, you have to accept it as a bona fide thing /thread