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View Full Version : Christensen: Minnesota Twins Pitching Hope Are On Horizon



John Bonnes
08-19-2012, 09:35 AM
http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/166652456.html

Joe takes a look at five pitchers we've been talking about a lot on this board: Berrios, Gibson, Hendriks, Fernandez & Vasquez.

His description of Fernandez is underwhelming. I'm not sure why he included him with these others.

greengoblinrulz
08-19-2012, 10:29 AM
why are they talkin about limiting Gibson to 100IP next yr???? Gotta be a misprint, doesnt it??

Roaddog
08-19-2012, 10:33 AM
If we are relying on Hernandez as guy to step up, we are in trouble, IMO.

JB_Iowa
08-19-2012, 10:42 AM
PLEASE don't let them think that all the Twins need is for these five players to mature.

TheLeviathan
08-19-2012, 10:43 AM
I thought this was interesting when they started with Berrios......and then I saw the rest of the list.

righty8383
08-19-2012, 10:53 AM
Berrios and Gibson are the only 2 on that list that have a chance to be above average big league pitchers. Hendriks could be average at best. The other two...meh.

Roaddog
08-19-2012, 10:53 AM
I thought this was interesting when they started with Berrios......and then I saw the rest of the list.


I agree with Gibson too, but the rest of the list? Yuck

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-19-2012, 11:12 AM
Berrios and Gibson are the only 2 on that list that have a chance to be above average big league pitchers. Hendriks could be average at best. The other two...meh.

Disagree, Hendriks has the upside to be a solid #2 or a good #3.

Berrios and Gibson both have the ability to be great #2's or a poor mans #1.

cr9617
08-19-2012, 11:41 AM
I almost choked on my coffee this morning while reading this article. This list puts a gleam in Antony's eye??? There is just no reason to have faith in this FO or any of the key decision makers.

This team won't finish a season above .500 for another 4 or 5 years.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-19-2012, 02:52 PM
Few things:

The Twins never said they are counting on all 5 of those guys, their are just 5 potential options in the farm system.
If 2 of those 5 can become solid pitchers the rotation suddenly doesn't look as nasty as it does now.

Brock Beauchamp
08-19-2012, 02:58 PM
I almost choked on my coffee this morning while reading this article. This list puts a gleam in Antony's eye??? There is just no reason to have faith in this FO or any of the key decision makers.

This team won't finish a season above .500 for another 4 or 5 years.

I am so bloody sick and tired of reading this line or something like it on the forums.

The Minnesota Twins were the most consistently successful small market team of the 2000s. They made the playoffs more often than not and while they struggled in the postseason, overall they posted one of the better records in all of baseball for the decade.

So why shouldn't we have a little faith in the front office? Because the team had two awful seasons? Because of that, we should ignore the entire decade the preceded it?

Jesus... People around here need to step off the ledge and take in a little perspective. Yes, the Twins are bad right now but their farm system is on the rebound and help is on the way. They have a solid core of young-ish players. They have money to spend. Stop cherry-picking the past two years of horrible baseball and ignoring the ten years that came before it.

Top Gun
08-19-2012, 03:11 PM
The past is gone at last and the Twins will now stay in last. The F. O. don't care they get there money.

Brock Beauchamp
08-19-2012, 03:16 PM
The past is gone at last and the Twins will now stay in last. The F. O. don't care they get there money.

I didn't know the front office received profit-sharing.

You obviously hate the Twins; well over 90% of your posts are overwhelmingly negative and I never see you contribute anything substantive to the conversation. Why are you even here?

greengoblinrulz
08-19-2012, 03:16 PM
I almost choked on my coffee this morning while reading this article. This list puts a gleam in Antony's eye??? There is just no reason to have faith in this FO or any of the key decision makers.

This team won't finish a season above .500 for another 4 or 5 years.

I am so bloody sick and tired of reading this line or something like it on the forums.

The Minnesota Twins were the most consistently successful small market team of the 2000s. They made the playoffs more often than not and while they struggled in the postseason, overall they posted one of the better records in all of baseball for the decade.

So why shouldn't we have a little faith in the front office? Because the team had two awful seasons? Because of that, we should ignore the entire decade the preceded it?

Jesus... People around here need to step off the ledge and take in a little perspective. Yes, the Twins are bad right now but their farm system is on the rebound and help is on the way. They have a solid core of young-ish players. They have money to spend. Stop cherry-picking the past two years of horrible baseball and ignoring the ten years that came before it.

Can argue that, but I would say its OAK & Tampa w/MN 3rd. 5 one & dones in playoffs dropps em for me. Oak had 5 series & won only one, but had a much lower payroll & couldnt keep their key players. Tampa making the Series gives is to them IMO

PseudoSABR
08-19-2012, 03:18 PM
I almost choked on my coffee this morning while reading this article. This list puts a gleam in Antony's eye??? There is just no reason to have faith in this FO or any of the key decision makers.

This team won't finish a season above .500 for another 4 or 5 years.

I am so bloody sick and tired of reading this line or something like it on the forums.

The Minnesota Twins were the most consistently successful small market team of the 2000s. They made the playoffs more often than not and while they struggled in the postseason, overall they posted one of the better records in all of baseball for the decade.

So why shouldn't we have a little faith in the front office? Because the team had two awful seasons? Because of that, we should ignore the entire decade the preceded it?

Jesus... People around here need to step off the ledge and take in a little perspective. Yes, the Twins are bad right now but their farm system is on the rebound and help is on the way. They have a solid core of young-ish players. They have money to spend. Stop cherry-picking the past two years of horrible baseball and ignoring the ten years that came before it.
+1.

TheLeviathan
08-19-2012, 03:20 PM
I thought this was interesting when they started with Berrios......and then I saw the rest of the list.


I agree with Gibson too, but the rest of the list? Yuck

It wasn't just that. If you were playing the "Which one of these guys is not like the others?" it's CLEARLY Berrios. So I started reading an article, flipped a few pages, and it's like the damn author changed.

Brock Beauchamp
08-19-2012, 03:22 PM
Can argue that, but I would say its OAK & Tampa w/MN 3rd. 5 one & dones in playoffs dropps em for me. Oak had 5 series & won only one, but had a much lower payroll & couldnt keep their key players. Tampa making the Series gives is to them IMO

Tampa was awful until the ninth year of the decade. Oakland didn't do much after the third year of the decade (2006 was their lone postseason run after 2002).

Minnesota, on the other hand, didn't have as many flashy teams but they were competitive almost every year and made the playoffs more often than any other small market team.

Either way, we're splitting hairs. The Twins were a very competitive team for an entire decade, something no other small market team achieved. Ignoring that because they've had two truly awful seasons is ridiculous, especially when their farm system is coming on as strong as it has over the past 12 months. The organization still needs pitching (and lots of it) but this team has a lot of bats on the way and few of them are fading as they reach the high minors (Arcia has turned into a monster, Hicks has started to turn into the guy we all hoped he'd become).

stringer bell
08-19-2012, 03:26 PM
I almost choked on my coffee this morning while reading this article. This list puts a gleam in Antony's eye??? There is just no reason to have faith in this FO or any of the key decision makers.

This team won't finish a season above .500 for another 4 or 5 years.

I am so bloody sick and tired of reading this line or something like it on the forums.

The Minnesota Twins were the most consistently successful small market team of the 2000s. They made the playoffs more often than not and while they struggled in the postseason, overall they posted one of the better records in all of baseball for the decade.

So why shouldn't we have a little faith in the front office? Because the team had two awful seasons? Because of that, we should ignore the entire decade the preceded it?

Jesus... People around here need to step off the ledge and take in a little perspective. Yes, the Twins are bad right now but their farm system is on the rebound and help is on the way. They have a solid core of young-ish players. They have money to spend. Stop cherry-picking the past two years of horrible baseball and ignoring the ten years that came before it.I think the Twins will be better in the next couple years, but you have to also point out how hard and long the fall from grace has been. They have more money to spend than they ever did during the Metrodome years, so they should be able to put a representative product on the field. Last year's team was not. This year's team has no starting pitching to speak of.

Brock Beauchamp
08-19-2012, 03:31 PM
I think the Twins will be better in the next couple years, but you have to also point out how hard and long the fall from grace has been. They have more money to spend than they ever did during the Metrodome years, so they should be able to put a representative product on the field. Last year's team was not. This year's team has no starting pitching to speak of.

It's been bad, there's no denying that.

But to say "there's no reason to have confidence in the FO" is just dumb. I don't know how else to respond to that kind of thinking. The front office made a bunch of mistakes from 2006-2010 and that led to some of the mess we're dealing with today but they also had a healthy dose of bad luck and a general manager who made moves to the ML roster seemingly at random. That GM is now gone and the guy who built the first two waves of successful Twins prospects is back at the helm.

Will he succeed? Dunno. But I'm going to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. He hasn't been back on the job for even 12 months yet.

3up3down
08-19-2012, 08:14 PM
Mr vodkadave, you really see Hendricks as a #2. A #2 starter has 2 plus pitches...Hendricks has none..his FB is below avg at 87-91 with little movement and not as much sink as everyone says (same as Blackburn)..curve is average at best,change is below avg, so how do you come up with a #2 starter...#5 or long reliever maybe....Gibson has a shot at possibly being. A good #3.. this is why I said they should have gotten lower level high upside proects for liriano & span...because they don't have a #1 or 2 in the system...

Seth Stohs
08-19-2012, 08:49 PM
I still stand behind my thoughts that Liam Hendriks can be Scott Baker-like if things go well, and that's a solid #2 (when healthy). Most likely, I think he's a solid #3/4 which, by the way, is pretty important on a big league roster. Hendriks FB is mainly 89-91, but he can hit 94. (same as Baker) He has two good breaking balls (that we have not seen consistently with the Twins but doesn't mean he doesn't have)... and he's got a good changeup. Who knows if he will reach his full potential, but if he does, then he can be Baker-like.

It's encouraging to hear that Gibson has added a mph or two of velocity since his TJ surgery. His ceiling before surgery was quality #2, and added velocity to go with the sink is a positive.

Hernandez - I can't say that I know anything more about him than the stats, but I'm not willing to say he can't be solid. What were most saying about Scott Diamond this spring? If Hernandez can hit 91 on the fastball and have a second pitch, he can be a solid reliever... If he's got a 3rd good pitch, he'll be a solid big leaguer. He's 23 and in AAA. That's pretty good!

Berrios - He's just super exciting right now, and I can't wait to see how well he develops!

Vasquez - he's old, but that's OK. In 3 years with the D-Backs, tons of walks, but since he's been made a starter ,he's been terrific, with much better control.

Buck Nasty
08-19-2012, 09:50 PM
I have to admit, I was eager to read the article after the title caught my eye. But wow...there has to be more/better guys somewhere in our minor system isn't there? Berrios is way too new to rate - see Shooter Hunt. Hernandez - his track record shows there probably isn't too much to get excited about. Vasquez is pretty much your classic 28 year old minor league free agent guy i.e. Walters and Deduno.

So basically out of the five noted, I like Gibson and Hendricks (surprised so many are down on Liam already). But the other guys were a reach IMO.

What about BJ Hermsen? And if the starting pitching depth is this bad, would it make sense to try Swarzak as a starter again? I know he struggled in limited opportunity this year, but he did ok last year in 11 starts (4.52 ERA and 1.29 WHIP). That would be a solid #2 on this year's rotation -lol.

cr9617
08-19-2012, 09:53 PM
I almost choked on my coffee this morning while reading this article. This list puts a gleam in Antony's eye??? There is just no reason to have faith in this FO or any of the key decision makers.

This team won't finish a season above .500 for another 4 or 5 years.

I am so bloody sick and tired of reading this line or something like it on the forums.

The Minnesota Twins were the most consistently successful small market team of the 2000s. They made the playoffs more often than not and while they struggled in the postseason, overall they posted one of the better records in all of baseball for the decade.

So why shouldn't we have a little faith in the front office? Because the team had two awful seasons? Because of that, we should ignore the entire decade the preceded it?

Jesus... People around here need to step off the ledge and take in a little perspective. Yes, the Twins are bad right now but their farm system is on the rebound and help is on the way. They have a solid core of young-ish players. They have money to spend. Stop cherry-picking the past two years of horrible baseball and ignoring the ten years that came before it.

oh please. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but a lot us of here aren't buying it. The FO has made one blunder after another in recent years, both large and small. When times were good they were pretty quick to pat themselves on the back and remind everyone how cute and special they are. They were never all that special. Winning the Central is great, but it's not all THAT great. It's consistently the weakest division in baseball. Every other team that won the Central when the Twins did not, all had more success than did the Twins in the postseason. All those Central division banners ring somewhat hollow when you can't win a game, much less a series in the postseason.

Solid core of young-ish players? Who??

drivlikejehu
08-19-2012, 10:14 PM
The Twins' pitching situation, throughout the organization, is beyond terrible- and Antony or anyone else in the front office shouldn't be anything other than embarrassed.

twinswon1991
08-19-2012, 10:26 PM
The Twins' pitching situation, throughout the organization, is beyond terrible- and Antony or anyone else in the front office shouldn't be anything other than embarrassed.

Right. I can't believe anyone is defending Terry Ryan or any other member of the scouting/FO group based on past performance. Sure the Twins were the best of the worst for 5+ years in the central but they have only won 1 more playoff series than the Royals or Pirates in that decade. THe reality is that TR and his clueless scouts spent the last decade slacking off and failing to draft, scout and develop well. That is the main reason the Twins are in this tough spot. The fact they managed to win the worst division in baseball several times only to get embarrassed in the playoffs is nothing to hang your hats on.

This team has zero chance of competing until there is an infusion of new blood in the GM Chair, scouting department and medical/training staff.

Brock Beauchamp
08-20-2012, 08:36 AM
oh please. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but a lot us of here aren't buying it. The FO has made one blunder after another in recent years, both large and small. When times were good they were pretty quick to pat themselves on the back and remind everyone how cute and special they are. They were never all that special. Winning the Central is great, but it's not all THAT great. It's consistently the weakest division in baseball. Every other team that won the Central when the Twins did not, all had more success than did the Twins in the postseason. All those Central division banners ring somewhat hollow when you can't win a game, much less a series in the postseason.

Solid core of young-ish players? Who??

Yes, the front office made several blunders... And most of them weren't on JR's watch. Ramos/Capps, the Johan trade (admittedly, Smith was put into a difficult position there), Hardy/Hoey, Nishioka, etc... Smith did a great job with international signings, a pretty good job with the draft, and a completely abominable job with the Major League roster. The only move he made that was considered a good one by analysts was the Hardy for Gomez trade, which he later reversed with the ridiculous Hardy for Hoey trade.

You don't think the Twins have a solid core of young-ish players? What do you think Scott Diamond, Joe Mauer, Denard Span, Ben Revere, and Glen Perkins are? They certainly need more pitching but their hitting core is pretty good. Willingham is the only guy who is old enough to show a significant decline at this point.

Vervehound
08-20-2012, 09:01 AM
the fact is, rotations rarely go according to plan. even the braves have had their best laid plans fall to pieces with guys like minor and jurrjens not panning out and teheran regressing. the organizations with most pitching still have to cobble together pieces of their rotation and the twins will be little different. that list is underwhelming, but if diamond can become a solid back end optin and gibson and hendriks come through, you'll feel a lot better about this team a year from now. not to mention that hopefully the blackburn experiment will be at an end and you have classic addition by subtraction.

the real struggle for this organization has been its abysmal track record of drafting college arms post-2005 draft. 2011 was a deep, deep draft and the twins haul of michael, boyd, harrison, boer, williams, summers and grimes in the top five rounds looks horrible a year later. that was a blown draft and the preceding drafts were not a lot better. perhaps the real issue here is the scouting department?

Fire Dan Gladden
08-20-2012, 09:07 AM
oh please. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but a lot us of here aren't buying it. The FO has made one blunder after another in recent years, both large and small. When times were good they were pretty quick to pat themselves on the back and remind everyone how cute and special they are. They were never all that special. Winning the Central is great, but it's not all THAT great. It's consistently the weakest division in baseball. Every other team that won the Central when the Twins did not, all had more success than did the Twins in the postseason. All those Central division banners ring somewhat hollow when you can't win a game, much less a series in the postseason.

Solid core of young-ish players? Who??

Yes, the front office made several blunders... And most of them weren't on JR's watch. Ramos/Capps, the Johan trade (admittedly, Smith was put into a difficult position there), Hardy/Hoey, Nishioka, etc... Smith did a great job with international signings, a pretty good job with the draft, and a completely abominable job with the Major League roster. The only move he made that was considered a good one by analysts was the Hardy for Gomez trade, which he later reversed with the ridiculous Hardy for Hoey trade.

You don't think the Twins have a solid core of young-ish players? What do you think Scott Diamond, Joe Mauer, Denard Span, Ben Revere, and Glen Perkins are? They certainly need more pitching but their hitting core is pretty good. Willingham is the only guy who is old enough to show a significant decline at this point.

You go Brock! I love the fact that the Twins are in rebuilding mode right now and everybody is calling for TR head. Lest people forget that rebuilding is one of his strengths? If the pitching injuries did not happen this year this team would have been much more competitive (shhh... nobody wants to talk about that).

People are all over how good the Twins are when they do great and throw everybody under the bus when the are not. Its just too bad the same dozen negative posters keep repeating the "fire Terry, fire Gardy" mantra. It is old and stale. I sincerely hope that when this team is .500 next year and competing for the division within the next 2 that these same folks will admit their inadequacies and retire from posting.

roger
08-20-2012, 09:11 AM
I almost choked on my coffee this morning while reading this article. This list puts a gleam in Antony's eye??? There is just no reason to have faith in this FO or any of the key decision makers.

This team won't finish a season above .500 for another 4 or 5 years.

I am so bloody sick and tired of reading this line or something like it on the forums.

The Minnesota Twins were the most consistently successful small market team of the 2000s. They made the playoffs more often than not and while they struggled in the postseason, overall they posted one of the better records in all of baseball for the decade.

So why shouldn't we have a little faith in the front office? Because the team had two awful seasons? Because of that, we should ignore the entire decade the preceded it?

Jesus... People around here need to step off the ledge and take in a little perspective. Yes, the Twins are bad right now but their farm system is on the rebound and help is on the way. They have a solid core of young-ish players. They have money to spend. Stop cherry-picking the past two years of horrible baseball and ignoring the ten years that came before it.

+1, thank you!

Seth Stohs
08-20-2012, 09:26 AM
the real struggle for this organization has been its abysmal track record of drafting college arms post-2005 draft. 2011 was a deep, deep draft and the twins haul of michael, boyd, harrison, boer, williams, summers and grimes in the top five rounds looks horrible a year later. that was a blown draft and the preceding drafts were not a lot better. perhaps the real issue here is the scouting department?

You're ready to give up on a draft class that is one year old?? I wasn't high on Michael, and definitely not a Grimes guy, but there is no reason to give up on Williams, Boer and Summers yet, and certainly WAY too early to give up on Boyd and Harrison.

And, let's see how Gibson does, and how Wimmers returns next year midseason before completely giving up on ALL college pitchers drafted since 2005.

cr9617
08-20-2012, 10:29 AM
oh please. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but a lot us of here aren't buying it. The FO has made one blunder after another in recent years, both large and small. When times were good they were pretty quick to pat themselves on the back and remind everyone how cute and special they are. They were never all that special. Winning the Central is great, but it's not all THAT great. It's consistently the weakest division in baseball. Every other team that won the Central when the Twins did not, all had more success than did the Twins in the postseason. All those Central division banners ring somewhat hollow when you can't win a game, much less a series in the postseason.

Solid core of young-ish players? Who??

Yes, the front office made several blunders... And most of them weren't on JR's watch. Ramos/Capps, the Johan trade (admittedly, Smith was put into a difficult position there), Hardy/Hoey, Nishioka, etc... Smith did a great job with international signings, a pretty good job with the draft, and a completely abominable job with the Major League roster. The only move he made that was considered a good one by analysts was the Hardy for Gomez trade, which he later reversed with the ridiculous Hardy for Hoey trade.

You don't think the Twins have a solid core of young-ish players? What do you think Scott Diamond, Joe Mauer, Denard Span, Ben Revere, and Glen Perkins are? They certainly need more pitching but their hitting core is pretty good. Willingham is the only guy who is old enough to show a significant decline at this point.

That core, other than Mauer, is about as average as average can be.

cr9617
08-20-2012, 10:39 AM
oh please. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but a lot us of here aren't buying it. The FO has made one blunder after another in recent years, both large and small. When times were good they were pretty quick to pat themselves on the back and remind everyone how cute and special they are. They were never all that special. Winning the Central is great, but it's not all THAT great. It's consistently the weakest division in baseball. Every other team that won the Central when the Twins did not, all had more success than did the Twins in the postseason. All those Central division banners ring somewhat hollow when you can't win a game, much less a series in the postseason.

Solid core of young-ish players? Who??

Yes, the front office made several blunders... And most of them weren't on JR's watch. Ramos/Capps, the Johan trade (admittedly, Smith was put into a difficult position there), Hardy/Hoey, Nishioka, etc... Smith did a great job with international signings, a pretty good job with the draft, and a completely abominable job with the Major League roster. The only move he made that was considered a good one by analysts was the Hardy for Gomez trade, which he later reversed with the ridiculous Hardy for Hoey trade.

You don't think the Twins have a solid core of young-ish players? What do you think Scott Diamond, Joe Mauer, Denard Span, Ben Revere, and Glen Perkins are? They certainly need more pitching but their hitting core is pretty good. Willingham is the only guy who is old enough to show a significant decline at this point.

You go Brock! I love the fact that the Twins are in rebuilding mode right now and everybody is calling for TR head. Lest people forget that rebuilding is one of his strengths? If the pitching injuries did not happen this year this team would have been much more competitive (shhh... nobody wants to talk about that).

People are all over how good the Twins are when they do great and throw everybody under the bus when the are not. Its just too bad the same dozen negative posters keep repeating the "fire Terry, fire Gardy" mantra. It is old and stale. I sincerely hope that when this team is .500 next year and competing for the division within the next 2 that these same folks will admit their inadequacies and retire from posting.


What's positive about a team approaching 100 losses 2 years in a row? And are they really in rebuild mode? Seems to me they are throwing all sorts of crap at the wall and hoping something will stick.

How is this team going to approach .500 next year with Scott Diamond and four nobody's making up their rotation? If you think the Twins are going to outbid other teams for a top end starter or two, you have not been paying attention.

This team would be 5 wins better with a healthy Baker, I'll give you that. Pavano's has nothing left, even if he was healthy.

Vervehound
08-20-2012, 10:46 AM
the real struggle for this organization has been its abysmal track record of drafting college arms post-2005 draft. 2011 was a deep, deep draft and the twins haul of michael, boyd, harrison, boer, williams, summers and grimes in the top five rounds looks horrible a year later. that was a blown draft and the preceding drafts were not a lot better. perhaps the real issue here is the scouting department?

You're ready to give up on a draft class that is one year old?? I wasn't high on Michael, and definitely not a Grimes guy, but there is no reason to give up on Williams, Boer and Summers yet, and certainly WAY too early to give up on Boyd and Harrison.

And, let's see how Gibson does, and how Wimmers returns next year midseason before completely giving up on ALL college pitchers drafted since 2005.

i wouldn't say i'm ready to give up on it at all - but you had picks 30, 50 and 55 and it none of the guys you picked look like standouts a year later. as for the college arms - summers has pitched decently and has a nice arm, but he hasn't missed bats at all and i doubt he makes it as a starter so you succeeded in picking three potential middle relievers. not what this system needs. i have the most hope for our first three picks and understand that harrison's approach is much more geared towards line drives than moonshots, but i don't think this is an impressive haul by any means. that said, i do like our later round southpaws from last year - particularly montanez, lee and malinowski.

twinsnorth49
08-20-2012, 11:11 AM
oh please. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but a lot us of here aren't buying it. The FO has made one blunder after another in recent years, both large and small. When times were good they were pretty quick to pat themselves on the back and remind everyone how cute and special they are. They were never all that special. Winning the Central is great, but it's not all THAT great. It's consistently the weakest division in baseball. Every other team that won the Central when the Twins did not, all had more success than did the Twins in the postseason. All those Central division banners ring somewhat hollow when you can't win a game, much less a series in the postseason.

Solid core of young-ish players? Who??

Yes, the front office made several blunders... And most of them weren't on JR's watch. Ramos/Capps, the Johan trade (admittedly, Smith was put into a difficult position there), Hardy/Hoey, Nishioka, etc... Smith did a great job with international signings, a pretty good job with the draft, and a completely abominable job with the Major League roster. The only move he made that was considered a good one by analysts was the Hardy for Gomez trade, which he later reversed with the ridiculous Hardy for Hoey trade.

You don't think the Twins have a solid core of young-ish players? What do you think Scott Diamond, Joe Mauer, Denard Span, Ben Revere, and Glen Perkins are? They certainly need more pitching but their hitting core is pretty good. Willingham is the only guy who is old enough to show a significant decline at this point.

You go Brock! I love the fact that the Twins are in rebuilding mode right now and everybody is calling for TR head. Lest people forget that rebuilding is one of his strengths? If the pitching injuries did not happen this year this team would have been much more competitive (shhh... nobody wants to talk about that).

People are all over how good the Twins are when they do great and throw everybody under the bus when the are not. Its just too bad the same dozen negative posters keep repeating the "fire Terry, fire Gardy" mantra. It is old and stale. I sincerely hope that when this team is .500 next year and competing for the division within the next 2 that these same folks will admit their inadequacies and retire from posting.


What's positive about a team approaching 100 losses 2 years in a row? And are they really in rebuild mode? Seems to me they are throwing all sorts of crap at the wall and hoping something will stick.

How is this team going to approach .500 next year with Scott Diamond and four nobody's making up their rotation? If you think the Twins are going to outbid other teams for a top end starter or two, you have not been paying attention.

This team would be 5 wins better with a healthy Baker, I'll give you that. Pavano's has nothing left, even if he was healthy.

You don't like the FO, we get it, anything objective to say?

JB_Iowa
08-20-2012, 12:20 PM
People are all over how good the Twins are when they do great and throw everybody under the bus when the are not. Its just too bad the same dozen negative posters keep repeating the "fire Terry, fire Gardy" mantra. It is old and stale. I sincerely hope that when this team is .500 next year and competing for the division within the next 2 that these same folks will admit their inadequacies and retire from posting.


And if none of that happens, will you come back and admit you were wrong? I remember a number of posters in various places saying that THIS year couldn't possibly approach last year's record of futility.

Well, guess what? Mauer and Morneau have been healthier and more productive than almost anyone could have anticipated. The rest of the line-up has been pretty healthy, too. Admittedly the hit with Baker was a hard one and I think most of us expected more from Frankie (although he has always been a cautionary tale). Pavano? Can't say that was unanticipated. There were plenty of people who were worried about giving him a multi-year contract the last time. And yet, as of today, the Twins' record is worse than last year. By the end of the year, they may not have equaled last year's futility but its going to come pretty darn close.

I'm willing to give Terry Ryan some slack. It is hard to turn around a team in one year. On the other hand, I can't forget that he WAS with the team after he left the GM's chair the first time albeit not as GM. In addition, he pretty much absconded from responsibility in the face of some tough challenges (Hunter, Santana).

While I am reserving judgment on Terry Ryan, I strongly believe that some changes need to be made in this organization. It is stale, stale, stale. I'd prefer a new manager but if nothing else, there needs to be some changes in the coaching staff. Just like there needs to be changes in the front office.

This franchise is starving for some new leadership, energy and ideas.

cr9617
08-20-2012, 01:12 PM
oh please. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but a lot us of here aren't buying it. The FO has made one blunder after another in recent years, both large and small. When times were good they were pretty quick to pat themselves on the back and remind everyone how cute and special they are. They were never all that special. Winning the Central is great, but it's not all THAT great. It's consistently the weakest division in baseball. Every other team that won the Central when the Twins did not, all had more success than did the Twins in the postseason. All those Central division banners ring somewhat hollow when you can't win a game, much less a series in the postseason.

Solid core of young-ish players? Who??

Yes, the front office made several blunders... And most of them weren't on JR's watch. Ramos/Capps, the Johan trade (admittedly, Smith was put into a difficult position there), Hardy/Hoey, Nishioka, etc... Smith did a great job with international signings, a pretty good job with the draft, and a completely abominable job with the Major League roster. The only move he made that was considered a good one by analysts was the Hardy for Gomez trade, which he later reversed with the ridiculous Hardy for Hoey trade.

You don't think the Twins have a solid core of young-ish players? What do you think Scott Diamond, Joe Mauer, Denard Span, Ben Revere, and Glen Perkins are? They certainly need more pitching but their hitting core is pretty good. Willingham is the only guy who is old enough to show a significant decline at this point.

You go Brock! I love the fact that the Twins are in rebuilding mode right now and everybody is calling for TR head. Lest people forget that rebuilding is one of his strengths? If the pitching injuries did not happen this year this team would have been much more competitive (shhh... nobody wants to talk about that).

People are all over how good the Twins are when they do great and throw everybody under the bus when the are not. Its just too bad the same dozen negative posters keep repeating the "fire Terry, fire Gardy" mantra. It is old and stale. I sincerely hope that when this team is .500 next year and competing for the division within the next 2 that these same folks will admit their inadequacies and retire from posting.


What's positive about a team approaching 100 losses 2 years in a row? And are they really in rebuild mode? Seems to me they are throwing all sorts of crap at the wall and hoping something will stick.

How is this team going to approach .500 next year with Scott Diamond and four nobody's making up their rotation? If you think the Twins are going to outbid other teams for a top end starter or two, you have not been paying attention.

This team would be 5 wins better with a healthy Baker, I'll give you that. Pavano's has nothing left, even if he was healthy.

You don't like the FO, we get it, anything objective to say?

It's already been said.

deanlambrecht
08-20-2012, 01:16 PM
oh please. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but a lot us of here aren't buying it. The FO has made one blunder after another in recent years, both large and small. When times were good they were pretty quick to pat themselves on the back and remind everyone how cute and special they are. They were never all that special. Winning the Central is great, but it's not all THAT great. It's consistently the weakest division in baseball. Every other team that won the Central when the Twins did not, all had more success than did the Twins in the postseason. All those Central division banners ring somewhat hollow when you can't win a game, much less a series in the postseason.

Solid core of young-ish players? Who??

Yes, the front office made several blunders... And most of them weren't on JR's watch. Ramos/Capps, the Johan trade (admittedly, Smith was put into a difficult position there), Hardy/Hoey, Nishioka, etc... Smith did a great job with international signings, a pretty good job with the draft, and a completely abominable job with the Major League roster. The only move he made that was considered a good one by analysts was the Hardy for Gomez trade, which he later reversed with the ridiculous Hardy for Hoey trade.

You don't think the Twins have a solid core of young-ish players? What do you think Scott Diamond, Joe Mauer, Denard Span, Ben Revere, and Glen Perkins are? They certainly need more pitching but their hitting core is pretty good. Willingham is the only guy who is old enough to show a significant decline at this point.

Frankly, it's getting harder and harder to criticize the Santana-Gomez (et al) trade. Gomez is having a good year, and continues to have big upside at a very young age. Santana can't be considered anything but a disaster for the Mets.

He's put together only a single complete season at the level of success he achieved with the Twins, his first one, and ever since:

Has been on the DL for seasons-length of periods of time, with repeated shorter DL stints.
Despite his no-hitter earlier this season, has been pitching quite poorly this season, including being a complete and utter disaster since he tossed that 134 pitch no-hitter.


Yet they're paying him in the mid $20M range every year, and still owe him $25M next season (which is looking increasingly troublesome).

With the other players in that trade, we netted Jon Rauch in the Mulvey trade, which worked out well for us for over a season. Indeed, Humber was a disaster, and while he's still hanging by a thread it's looking the same for Guerra.

We got some interesting production from a very young Gomez, and the CF threat he posed to Denard seemed to spark something in Span to turn his languishing career around. We then we got Hardy for Gomez - as you noted, a fantastic move (and that we blew this with the Hardy to B'more trade says nothing about the Santana trade).

Gleeman wrote about this earlier this year, calling it a lose-lose trade (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15979). I'd argue the Twins did better than did the Mets. Whether or not we would have done better by letting Santana go and getting a few picks for him is the only argument, IMO, that flies, but it's a purely speculative one. As Gleeman aptly points out, the pieces we got for Santana were highly ranked when we got them. They didn't pan out like we'd hoped. Obviously neither did Santana. None of the teams we were targeting were willing to give us the pieces we wanted - perhaps they were suspicious of Santana's ability to keep producing at the level we'd seen, and perhaps so were we. And if the lot of 'em were suspicious, turns out they were right.

Outside of that, Brock, you've got a far superior argument here compared to those having a little freakout about our front office. The comparison point isn't the Yankees or Red Sox. It's all other teams in baseball. Compared to all other teams, based on performance over a reasonable time frame (a decade), our front office looks far better than most.

Fire Dan Gladden
08-20-2012, 01:22 PM
People are all over how good the Twins are when they do great and throw everybody under the bus when the are not. Its just too bad the same dozen negative posters keep repeating the "fire Terry, fire Gardy" mantra. It is old and stale. I sincerely hope that when this team is .500 next year and competing for the division within the next 2 that these same folks will admit their inadequacies and retire from posting.


And if none of that happens, will you come back and admit you were wrong? I remember a number of posters in various places saying that THIS year couldn't possibly approach last year's record of futility.

Well, guess what? Mauer and Morneau have been healthier and more productive than almost anyone could have anticipated. The rest of the line-up has been pretty healthy, too. Admittedly the hit with Baker was a hard one and I think most of us expected more from Frankie (although he has always been a cautionary tale). Pavano? Can't say that was unanticipated. There were plenty of people who were worried about giving him a multi-year contract the last time. And yet, as of today, the Twins' record is worse than last year. By the end of the year, they may not have equaled last year's futility but its going to come pretty darn close.

I'm willing to give Terry Ryan some slack. It is hard to turn around a team in one year. On the other hand, I can't forget that he WAS with the team after he left the GM's chair the first time albeit not as GM. In addition, he pretty much absconded from responsibility in the face of some tough challenges (Hunter, Santana).

While I am reserving judgment on Terry Ryan, I strongly believe that some changes need to be made in this organization. It is stale, stale, stale. I'd prefer a new manager but if nothing else, there needs to be some changes in the coaching staff. Just like there needs to be changes in the front office.

This franchise is starving for some new leadership, energy and ideas.

At the beginning of the year, this team shouldn't have approached the futility we are seeing, but lets look at this:

Position players in total are outperforming hopes and expectations: healthy Mauer, healthy Morneau, healthy Span (concussion wise), Willingham, Doumit, Plouffe, even Butera. Hard to argue against these decisions.

Bullpen is, at the worst, doing what was expected. Not the league worst, fairly effective, even very good at times.

Starting staff decimated by injuries and playing below expectations. Look at the opening day starting five:
Pavano - if he only pitched at the same level he pitched last year, missed a lot of time due to injury (how long did he pitch hurt?).
Baker - Out for season, injury.
Liriano - 1st half was disaster, pitched better over last 8 starts with the team (couldn't even match last year's terrible numbers)
Blackburn - Unmitigated disaster, should have been more effective (again, couldn't match last year's numbers)
Marquis - Unmitigated disaster, should have been more effective (how much did missing Spring Training mess with him? Look at him now)

If these five had pitched to the levels they were supposed to how many more wins would the Twins have? Ten is probably a conservative number. Add ten wins and subtract ten losses, what do you have? A .500 team. I guarantee you nobody around here would be complaining about .500 after last year. The Twins banked on these guys maintaining and being healthy. Virtually everything that could go wrong, did go wrong.

Why is everybody ignoring the fact that this team has been about .500 since May? The sample size is large enough that you don't write it off. This is currently an average team that needs to improve it's starting pitching. But yet you say fire everybody and start over...

JB_Iowa
08-20-2012, 01:29 PM
Please re-read my post. Where did I say fire everybody and start over?

I said that there need to be some changes and that this franchise needs an injection of fresh energy, leadership and ideas.

That is not the same as saying fire everybody. But take a look at the leadership (on field and front office) over the last 10 years. It is moribund.

When you seldom bring in anybody to challenge your status quo, you get complacent. I believe that the Twins are paying now for failing to gradually infuse new talent over time.

twinsnorth49
08-20-2012, 01:30 PM
oh please. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but a lot us of here aren't buying it. The FO has made one blunder after another in recent years, both large and small. When times were good they were pretty quick to pat themselves on the back and remind everyone how cute and special they are. They were never all that special. Winning the Central is great, but it's not all THAT great. It's consistently the weakest division in baseball. Every other team that won the Central when the Twins did not, all had more success than did the Twins in the postseason. All those Central division banners ring somewhat hollow when you can't win a game, much less a series in the postseason.

Solid core of young-ish players? Who??

Yes, the front office made several blunders... And most of them weren't on JR's watch. Ramos/Capps, the Johan trade (admittedly, Smith was put into a difficult position there), Hardy/Hoey, Nishioka, etc... Smith did a great job with international signings, a pretty good job with the draft, and a completely abominable job with the Major League roster. The only move he made that was considered a good one by analysts was the Hardy for Gomez trade, which he later reversed with the ridiculous Hardy for Hoey trade.

You don't think the Twins have a solid core of young-ish players? What do you think Scott Diamond, Joe Mauer, Denard Span, Ben Revere, and Glen Perkins are? They certainly need more pitching but their hitting core is pretty good. Willingham is the only guy who is old enough to show a significant decline at this point.

Frankly, it's getting harder and harder to criticize the Santana-Gomez (et al) trade. Gomez is having a good year, and continues to have big upside at a very young age. Santana can't be considered anything but a disaster for the Mets.

He's put together only a single complete season at the level of success he achieved with the Twins, his first one, and ever since:

Has been on the DL for seasons-length of periods of time, with repeated shorter DL stints.
Despite his no-hitter earlier this season, has been pitching quite poorly this season, including being a complete and utter disaster since he tossed that 134 pitch no-hitter.


Yet they're paying him in the mid $20M range every year, and still owe him $25M next season (which is looking increasingly troublesome).

With the other players in that trade, we netted Jon Rauch in the Mulvey trade, which worked out well for us for over a season. Indeed, Humber was a disaster, and while he's still hanging by a thread it's looking the same for Guerra.

We got some interesting production from a very young Gomez, and the CF threat he posed to Denard seemed to spark something in Span to turn his languishing career around. We then we got Hardy for Gomez - as you noted, a fantastic move (and that we blew this with the Hardy to B'more trade says nothing about the Santana trade).

Gleeman wrote about this earlier this year, calling it a lose-lose trade (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15979). I'd argue the Twins did better than did the Mets. Whether or not we would have done better by letting Santana go and getting a few picks for him is the only argument, IMO, that flies, but it's a purely speculative one. As Gleeman aptly points out, the pieces we got for Santana were highly ranked when we got them. They didn't pan out like we'd hoped. Obviously neither did Santana. None of the teams we were targeting were willing to give us the pieces we wanted - perhaps they were suspicious of Santana's ability to keep producing at the level we'd seen, and perhaps so were we. And if the lot of 'em were suspicious, turns out they were right.

Outside of that, Brock, you've got a far superior argument here compared to those having a little freakout about our front office. The comparison point isn't the Yankees or Red Sox. It's all other teams in baseball. Compared to all other teams, based on performance over a reasonable time frame (a decade), our front office looks far better than most.

Only 11 different teams have won the WS since 1991, seeing as that is the only measuring stick by the "fire everybody" crowd, we're at least as good as 19 other teams. That's a lot of people out of work.

cr9617
08-20-2012, 01:42 PM
People are all over how good the Twins are when they do great and throw everybody under the bus when the are not. Its just too bad the same dozen negative posters keep repeating the "fire Terry, fire Gardy" mantra. It is old and stale. I sincerely hope that when this team is .500 next year and competing for the division within the next 2 that these same folks will admit their inadequacies and retire from posting.


And if none of that happens, will you come back and admit you were wrong? I remember a number of posters in various places saying that THIS year couldn't possibly approach last year's record of futility.

Well, guess what? Mauer and Morneau have been healthier and more productive than almost anyone could have anticipated. The rest of the line-up has been pretty healthy, too. Admittedly the hit with Baker was a hard one and I think most of us expected more from Frankie (although he has always been a cautionary tale). Pavano? Can't say that was unanticipated. There were plenty of people who were worried about giving him a multi-year contract the last time. And yet, as of today, the Twins' record is worse than last year. By the end of the year, they may not have equaled last year's futility but its going to come pretty darn close.

I'm willing to give Terry Ryan some slack. It is hard to turn around a team in one year. On the other hand, I can't forget that he WAS with the team after he left the GM's chair the first time albeit not as GM. In addition, he pretty much absconded from responsibility in the face of some tough challenges (Hunter, Santana).

While I am reserving judgment on Terry Ryan, I strongly believe that some changes need to be made in this organization. It is stale, stale, stale. I'd prefer a new manager but if nothing else, there needs to be some changes in the coaching staff. Just like there needs to be changes in the front office.

This franchise is starving for some new leadership, energy and ideas.

At the beginning of the year, this team shouldn't have approached the futility we are seeing, but lets look at this:

Position players in total are outperforming hopes and expectations: healthy Mauer, healthy Morneau, healthy Span (concussion wise), Willingham, Doumit, Plouffe, even Butera. Hard to argue against these decisions.

Bullpen is, at the worst, doing what was expected. Not the league worst, fairly effective, even very good at times.

Starting staff decimated by injuries and playing below expectations. Look at the opening day starting five:
Pavano - if he only pitched at the same level he pitched last year, missed a lot of time due to injury (how long did he pitch hurt?).
Baker - Out for season, injury.
Liriano - 1st half was disaster, pitched better over last 8 starts with the team (couldn't even match last year's terrible numbers)
Blackburn - Unmitigated disaster, should have been more effective (again, couldn't match last year's numbers)
Marquis - Unmitigated disaster, should have been more effective (how much did missing Spring Training mess with him? Look at him now)

If these five had pitched to the levels they were supposed to how many more wins would the Twins have? Ten is probably a conservative number. Add ten wins and subtract ten losses, what do you have? A .500 team. I guarantee you nobody around here would be complaining about .500 after last year. The Twins banked on these guys maintaining and being healthy. Virtually everything that could go wrong, did go wrong.

Why is everybody ignoring the fact that this team has been about .500 since May? The sample size is large enough that you don't write it off. This is currently an average team that needs to improve it's starting pitching. But yet you say fire everybody and start over...

How many IFS does it take to get to .500?

I don't know how you can spin something positive out of the worst record in the AL, and the 2nd highest ERA in the Majors.

JB_Iowa
08-20-2012, 02:00 PM
I don't even know where the "since May" .500 record idea comes from anymore.

According to baseballreference.com, the Twins record by month is:

April 6-16
May 12-16
June 14-13
July 12-14
August 6-11


So, they had 1 month above .500 (June). One slightly below .500 (July). Taking those 2 months together, they were still slightly below .500 (26-27).

Even if you throw out April altogether, they are 44-54 (.449). I don't think there's even a date in May that you can "cherry pick" to somehow give them a .500 record.

You can't just celebrate June and July and forget April and August.

CDog
08-20-2012, 03:14 PM
I don't even know where the "since May" .500 record idea comes from anymore.

According to baseballreference.com, the Twins record by month is:

April 6-16
May 12-16
June 14-13
July 12-14
August 6-11


So, they had 1 month above .500 (June). One slightly below .500 (July). Taking those 2 months together, they were still slightly below .500 (26-27).

Even if you throw out April altogether, they are 44-54 (.449). I don't think there's even a date in May that you can "cherry pick" to somehow give them a .500 record.

You can't just celebrate June and July and forget April and August.

They were 14 games under .500 as of May 7th and 17 games under by May 27th. They've been bouncing around close to those numbers of games under .500 ever since. That's where the idea comes from.

Steve Lein
08-20-2012, 03:58 PM
I have no idea why this puts a "gleam in Antony's eye." I'd wager you wouldn't be able to find another team in as bad of shape as far as SP-prospects-coming-up as the Twins are. They are basically ridiculed for their draft this year on that front as well, as pretty much every Pitching prospect they drafted early (except Berrios) profiled as a RP.

All these guys have questions.

Berrios - just was drafted, do you really know what you have after the ~40 IP he'll throw in rookie leagues this year?
Gibson - Looks good so far on his comeback, but can he keep it up?
Hendriks - Love this guy, but will he figure out the Majors? I think he will, but he's a poor-mans Radke.
Hernandez - At least in my view, a guy viewed as a #5 would never put a "gleam" in my eye.
Vasquez - He's 28. His last 10 starts mean about the same to me as giving P.J. Walters, Cole DeVries, and Sam Deduno opportunities this year. You go to him because you don't have any other options.

There's only 1 spot in this rotation spoken for next year, with Scott Diamond. And I agree with Mackey for once, lets not get carried away with what we think Diamond is. It's those Free Agent Starting Pitchers this offseason that should put a "gleam" in Antony's eye, not anybody that's already here.

diehardtwinsfan
08-20-2012, 05:27 PM
you can add Blackburn to this list too... Former #1 prospect of the team.

Fire Dan Gladden
08-20-2012, 08:37 PM
People are all over how good the Twins are when they do great and throw everybody under the bus when the are not. Its just too bad the same dozen negative posters keep repeating the "fire Terry, fire Gardy" mantra. It is old and stale. I sincerely hope that when this team is .500 next year and competing for the division within the next 2 that these same folks will admit their inadequacies and retire from posting.


And if none of that happens, will you come back and admit you were wrong? I remember a number of posters in various places saying that THIS year couldn't possibly approach last year's record of futility.

Well, guess what? Mauer and Morneau have been healthier and more productive than almost anyone could have anticipated. The rest of the line-up has been pretty healthy, too. Admittedly the hit with Baker was a hard one and I think most of us expected more from Frankie (although he has always been a cautionary tale). Pavano? Can't say that was unanticipated. There were plenty of people who were worried about giving him a multi-year contract the last time. And yet, as of today, the Twins' record is worse than last year. By the end of the year, they may not have equaled last year's futility but its going to come pretty darn close.

I'm willing to give Terry Ryan some slack. It is hard to turn around a team in one year. On the other hand, I can't forget that he WAS with the team after he left the GM's chair the first time albeit not as GM. In addition, he pretty much absconded from responsibility in the face of some tough challenges (Hunter, Santana).

While I am reserving judgment on Terry Ryan, I strongly believe that some changes need to be made in this organization. It is stale, stale, stale. I'd prefer a new manager but if nothing else, there needs to be some changes in the coaching staff. Just like there needs to be changes in the front office.

This franchise is starving for some new leadership, energy and ideas.

At the beginning of the year, this team shouldn't have approached the futility we are seeing, but lets look at this:

Position players in total are outperforming hopes and expectations: healthy Mauer, healthy Morneau, healthy Span (concussion wise), Willingham, Doumit, Plouffe, even Butera. Hard to argue against these decisions.

Bullpen is, at the worst, doing what was expected. Not the league worst, fairly effective, even very good at times.

Starting staff decimated by injuries and playing below expectations. Look at the opening day starting five:
Pavano - if he only pitched at the same level he pitched last year, missed a lot of time due to injury (how long did he pitch hurt?).
Baker - Out for season, injury.
Liriano - 1st half was disaster, pitched better over last 8 starts with the team (couldn't even match last year's terrible numbers)
Blackburn - Unmitigated disaster, should have been more effective (again, couldn't match last year's numbers)
Marquis - Unmitigated disaster, should have been more effective (how much did missing Spring Training mess with him? Look at him now)

If these five had pitched to the levels they were supposed to how many more wins would the Twins have? Ten is probably a conservative number. Add ten wins and subtract ten losses, what do you have? A .500 team. I guarantee you nobody around here would be complaining about .500 after last year. The Twins banked on these guys maintaining and being healthy. Virtually everything that could go wrong, did go wrong.

Why is everybody ignoring the fact that this team has been about .500 since May? The sample size is large enough that you don't write it off. This is currently an average team that needs to improve it's starting pitching. But yet you say fire everybody and start over...

How many IFS does it take to get to .500?

I don't know how you can spin something positive out of the worst record in the AL, and the 2nd highest ERA in the Majors.

You're right on your previous post, I did lump you in with the "fire everybody" crowd. For that I apologize. I don't believe making major changes to admin will have the desired effect you are looking for. The Twins have a very defined set of rules concerning payroll and budgets. I believe the admin currently in place is among the best suited for this environment.

As for the IFS, I am not saying "if these 15 things happened, where would we be". I am saying that the injuries to the starting pitching are making the Twins look worse then they really are. Heck, a healthy Baker alone is probably worth 6-7 more wins for this team (not WAR, as many of our pitchers are not average).

You see change and new blood needed for this team to be competitve, I see 2 decent starting pitchers and what we currently have to maintain what they've done. That's not major change.

USAFChief
08-20-2012, 09:08 PM
I have no idea why this puts a "gleam in Antony's eye." I'd wager you wouldn't be able to find another team in as bad of shape as far as SP-prospects-coming-up as the Twins are. They are basically ridiculed for their draft this year on that front as well, as pretty much every Pitching prospect they drafted early (except Berrios) profiled as a RP.

All these guys have questions.

Berrios - just was drafted, do you really know what you have after the ~40 IP he'll throw in rookie leagues this year?
Gibson - Looks good so far on his comeback, but can he keep it up?
Hendriks - Love this guy, but will he figure out the Majors? I think he will, but he's a poor-mans Radke.
Hernandez - At least in my view, a guy viewed as a #5 would never put a "gleam" in my eye.
Vasquez - He's 28. His last 10 starts mean about the same to me as giving P.J. Walters, Cole DeVries, and Sam Deduno opportunities this year. You go to him because you don't have any other options.

There's only 1 spot in this rotation spoken for next year, with Scott Diamond. And I agree with Mackey for once, lets not get carried away with what we think Diamond is. It's those Free Agent Starting Pitchers this offseason that should put a "gleam" in Antony's eye, not anybody that's already here.

+1.

"Gleam in the eye?" If this is the best list an organization can point to in a season with starting pitching this disastrous--an 18 yr old with a 2 month resume, a guy a yr removed from TJ, one semi-legit AAA guy who can't even seem to crack THIS major league rotation, a guy who "might be" a #5 someday, and a 28 yr old--you should be looking to poke yourself in the eye with a sharp stick, rather than pretending this represents some sort of near term or long term fix.

Riverbrian
08-20-2012, 09:14 PM
I have no idea why this puts a "gleam in Antony's eye." I'd wager you wouldn't be able to find another team in as bad of shape as far as SP-prospects-coming-up as the Twins are. They are basically ridiculed for their draft this year on that front as well, as pretty much every Pitching prospect they drafted early (except Berrios) profiled as a RP.

All these guys have questions.

Berrios - just was drafted, do you really know what you have after the ~40 IP he'll throw in rookie leagues this year?
Gibson - Looks good so far on his comeback, but can he keep it up?
Hendriks - Love this guy, but will he figure out the Majors? I think he will, but he's a poor-mans Radke.
Hernandez - At least in my view, a guy viewed as a #5 would never put a "gleam" in my eye.
Vasquez - He's 28. His last 10 starts mean about the same to me as giving P.J. Walters, Cole DeVries, and Sam Deduno opportunities this year. You go to him because you don't have any other options.

There's only 1 spot in this rotation spoken for next year, with Scott Diamond. And I agree with Mackey for once, lets not get carried away with what we think Diamond is. It's those Free Agent Starting Pitchers this offseason that should put a "gleam" in Antony's eye, not anybody that's already here.

+1.

"Gleam in the eye?" If this is the best list an organization can point to in a season with starting pitching this disastrous--an 18 yr old with a 2 month resume, a guy a yr removed from TJ, one semi-legit AAA guy who can't even seem to crack THIS major league rotation, a guy who "might be" a #5 someday, and a 28 yr old--you should be looking to poke yourself in the eye with a sharp stick, rather than pretending this represents some sort of near term or long term fix.

Anyone else notice that Antony is becoming more quoted... Interviewed... Hadent noticed a lot of Antony material this year until recently. Maybe I missed some stuff.

twinsnorth49
08-20-2012, 11:06 PM
I have no idea why this puts a "gleam in Antony's eye." I'd wager you wouldn't be able to find another team in as bad of shape as far as SP-prospects-coming-up as the Twins are. They are basically ridiculed for their draft this year on that front as well, as pretty much every Pitching prospect they drafted early (except Berrios) profiled as a RP.

All these guys have questions.

Berrios - just was drafted, do you really know what you have after the ~40 IP he'll throw in rookie leagues this year?
Gibson - Looks good so far on his comeback, but can he keep it up?
Hendriks - Love this guy, but will he figure out the Majors? I think he will, but he's a poor-mans Radke.
Hernandez - At least in my view, a guy viewed as a #5 would never put a "gleam" in my eye.
Vasquez - He's 28. His last 10 starts mean about the same to me as giving P.J. Walters, Cole DeVries, and Sam Deduno opportunities this year. You go to him because you don't have any other options.

There's only 1 spot in this rotation spoken for next year, with Scott Diamond. And I agree with Mackey for once, lets not get carried away with what we think Diamond is. It's those Free Agent Starting Pitchers this offseason that should put a "gleam" in Antony's eye, not anybody that's already here.

You're not really making much of a point as to why this wouldn't put a gleam in Antony's eye. Other than Vasquez and I'll give you that one, you've just stated that you don't have much of a clue how any of them will turnout.

No, we don't don't know for sure about Berrios at this point but is there anything to not feel good about?

Gibson, yeah, looks good so far, can he keep it up? Any reason to think no as opposed to yes? Not really.

Hendriks, ok poor man's Radke, he's only 23, if he can be a solid #4 he's young enough to keep the team in a lot of games for a few years.

Hernandez, how many #5 pitchers put a gleam in anybody's eye?

Diamond, I don't think most people are getting ahead of themselves as Mackey seems to think, he's had a great year and so far there is no reason to believe he won't continue to contribute pretty steadily.

This group could just as easily be viewed as promising as not, it's just too early for most of them.

Steve Lein
08-21-2012, 09:18 AM
You're not really making much of a point as to why this wouldn't put a gleam in Antony's eye. Other than Vasquez and I'll give you that one, you've just stated that you don't have much of a clue how any of them will turnout.

No, we don't don't know for sure about Berrios at this point but is there anything to not feel good about?

Gibson, yeah, looks good so far, can he keep it up? Any reason to think no as opposed to yes? Not really.

Hendriks, ok poor man's Radke, he's only 23, if he can be a solid #4 he's young enough to keep the team in a lot of games for a few years.

Hernandez, how many #5 pitchers put a gleam in anybody's eye?

Diamond, I don't think most people are getting ahead of themselves as Mackey seems to think, he's had a great year and so far there is no reason to believe he won't continue to contribute pretty steadily.

This group could just as easily be viewed as promising as not, it's just too early for most of them.

The POINT, is Antony is making it sound like we have some super-awesome-young-core-nucleus of Starting Pitching that is going to turn the Twins fortunes around sooner rather than later, and that's not even close to the truth. They don't even have a core-nucleus of Starting Pitching to form a rotation next year.

Then there's the fact that if every other team in baseball put together a list of 5 starting pitchers that put a "gleam" in their GM or Assistant GM's eye, that this list would get laughed at by 90% of them.

As for your comments on each guy:

Berrios: Sure, he can get a gleam for what he's doing now in the Rookie Leagues, but how does that help the Twins?
Gibson: You basically said the same thing I did.
Hendriks: My point with the "poor mans Radke" comment is that he's not a Rotation Savior, a "poor mans Radke" certainly has value.
Hernandez: Exactly. So why is he on this list?

I guess I'm a glass half-empty, and you're a glass half-full guy, when it comes to this.