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View Full Version : Twins vs Mariners, 08-18-2012, 8:10pm



Brock Beauchamp
08-18-2012, 07:12 PM
Twins:
Jamey Carroll 2B
Darin Mastroianni CF
Joe Mauer C
Josh Willingham DH
Justin Morneau 1B
Ryan Doumit LF
Trevor Plouffe 3B
Matt Carson RF
Pedro Florimon SS
(Scott Diamond P)

Mariners:
Dustin Ackley 2B
Trayvon Robinson LF
Jesus Montero C
Miguel Olivo DH
Kyle Seager 3B
Justin Smoak 1B
Casper Wells RF
Michael Saunders CF
Brendan Ryan SS
(Jason Vargas P)

minn55441
08-18-2012, 07:24 PM
No Span, No Revere.

At the time of both injuries they didn't seem that serious. Span finished out the inning after his dive. Is this a case of the Medical staff being overly cautious? I heard Gardy talk about this on Friday, he said the trainers take them onto the field and put them through specific routines and then it is in the players hands to tell them if they can play. Are Ben and Denard really that dinged up? Or is they just a case of don't rush them back onto the field when we 10+ games out and it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme?

jokin
08-18-2012, 08:22 PM
No Span, No Revere.

1) At the time of both injuries they didn't seem that serious.

2) Span finished out the inning after his dive.

3) Is this a case of the Medical staff being overly cautious?

4) I heard Gardy talk about this on Friday, he said the trainers take them onto the field and put them through specific routines and then it is in the players hands to tell them if they can play. Are Ben and Denard really that dinged up?

5) Or is they just a case of don't rush them back onto the field when we 10+ games out, and

6) it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme?

Wow, 6 bum trip flashbacks to 2011 in one post!

Well done minn55441, well done.

glunn
08-18-2012, 09:00 PM
Why take any risk at all at this point? These games don't matter enough to take any chance of further injury.

On the other hand, I would DL Span and bring up Parmelee, then use Parmelee to give additional rest to Morneau, Mauer and Willingham. We want these players to be at their best next year.

Helluva a throw by Carson to get that guy at third.

glunn
08-18-2012, 09:16 PM
Roll call. Is anyone else watching the game now? I am having to endure the Mariners announcers.

Ultima Ratio
08-18-2012, 09:25 PM
Just checking the game now glunn, after last night I'm only checking in time to time.

jokin
08-18-2012, 09:25 PM
Why take any risk at all at this point? These games don't matter enough to take any chance of further injury.

On the other hand, I would DL Span and bring up Parmelee, then use Parmelee to give additional rest to Morneau, Mauer and Willingham. We want these players to be at their best next year.

Helluva a throw by Carson to get that guy at third.

The Twins could send down the #12 pitcher, call up Parmelle/Arica/whoever and then flip a different pitcher when Revere/Span are finally ready. Regardless, if as I agree with you, "these games don't matter", just DL Span and call up another bat already.

Carson is a nice story. Handling his business with alacrity thus far.

TheLeviathan
08-18-2012, 09:28 PM
Florimon is a more intriguing player than I thought. I had a mental image of a tiny, frail Alexi Ramirez type - but the he's a pretty big guy. The fielding report looks pretty dead on so far too - very smooth.

jokin
08-18-2012, 09:31 PM
Roll call. Is anyone else watching the game now? I am having to endure the Mariners announcers.

I think you're getting a preview of dog day baseball attention spans, it could get pretty lonely around here. When even all the mods/staffers have moved on, you get an indication of a team in the process of becoming a September afterthought.

jokin
08-18-2012, 09:38 PM
Florimon is a more intriguing player than I thought. I had a mental image of a tiny, frail Alexi Ramirez type - but the he's a pretty big guy. The fielding report looks pretty dead on so far too - very smooth.

I was wondering the same thing. Nice presence at the plate, his baserunning was fast but seemingly effortless cruising into 3B on that triple. Looked like a real take-charge guy on that play out in LF last night. I would like to see him click on some DPs, make the throws from the hole and charging the slow ball, but so far he's come as Seth advertised with his IL fielding credentials.

glunn
08-18-2012, 09:45 PM
Carson is a nice story. Handling his business with alacrity thus far.

Alacrity. I like that description.

glunn
08-18-2012, 09:47 PM
Florimon is a more intriguing player than I thought. I had a mental image of a tiny, frail Alexi Ramirez type - but the he's a pretty big guy. The fielding report looks pretty dead on so far too - very smooth.

I was wondering the same thing. Nice presence at the plate, his baserunning was fast but seemingly effortless cruising into 3B on that triple. Looked like a real take-charge guy on that play out in LF last night. I would like to see him click on some DPs, make the throws from the hole and charging the slow ball, but so far he's come as Seth advertised with his IL fielding credentials.

I agree with both of you. If this guy can hit better than Dozier, then he should keep playing.

glunn
08-18-2012, 09:47 PM
We got ROBBED on that play at first (but maybe Diamond should have gotten there a bit sooner).

TheLeviathan
08-18-2012, 09:52 PM
I was wondering the same thing. Nice presence at the plate, his baserunning was fast but seemingly effortless cruising into 3B on that triple. Looked like a real take-charge guy on that play out in LF last night. I would like to see him click on some DPs, make the throws from the hole and charging the slow ball, but so far he's come as Seth advertised with his IL fielding credentials.

I was hoping Diamond pitching would give us some better looks. The guy is built more like a third baseman, I guess I also didn't know he was a switch hitter. There is really a lot to like about this kid, wish we would've seen him sooner.

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 09:53 PM
We got ROBBED on that play at first (but maybe Diamond should have gotten there a bit sooner).

I can't fault the umpire too much for that one. It was barely perceptible on slow-mo that Diamond got there a fraction sooner. At real speed, it would have looked like a tie, and that goes to the runner.

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 09:57 PM
Carson singles - Florimon singles - I'm having flashbacks - where am I? Rochester?

glunn
08-18-2012, 09:57 PM
We got ROBBED on that play at first (but maybe Diamond should have gotten there a bit sooner).

I can't fault the umpire too much for that one. It was barely perceptible on slow-mo that Diamond got there a fraction sooner. At real speed, it would have looked like a tie, and that goes to the runner.

I agree 100% -- I don't fault the ump. But it made me feel better to complain.

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 09:58 PM
We got ROBBED on that play at first (but maybe Diamond should have gotten there a bit sooner).

I can't fault the umpire too much for that one. It was barely perceptible on slow-mo that Diamond got there a fraction sooner. At real speed, it would have looked like a tie, and that goes to the runner.

I agree 100% -- I don't fault the ump. But it made me feel better to complain.

It's good to unload that stuff - repressing it only makes it worse.:)

glunn
08-18-2012, 10:00 PM
We got ROBBED on that play at first (but maybe Diamond should have gotten there a bit sooner).

I can't fault the umpire too much for that one. It was barely perceptible on slow-mo that Diamond got there a fraction sooner. At real speed, it would have looked like a tie, and that goes to the runner.

I agree 100% -- I don't fault the ump. But it made me feel better to complain.

It's good to unload that stuff - repressing it only makes it worse.:)

Then I will also express my displeasure at Carson not beating the throw at third. That blunder may cost us this game.

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 10:02 PM
Can't dispute that one - he needs to be moving on that.

jokin
08-18-2012, 10:03 PM
We got ROBBED on that play at first (but maybe Diamond should have gotten there a bit sooner).

I can't fault the umpire too much for that one. It was barely perceptible on slow-mo that Diamond got there a fraction sooner. At real speed, it would have looked like a tie, and that goes to the runner.

I agree 100% -- I don't fault the ump. But it made me feel better to complain.

It's good to unload that stuff - repressing it only makes it worse.:)

Then I will also express my displeasure at Carson not beating the throw at third. That blunder may cost us this game.

Yes, rather disalacritous of him.

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 10:04 PM
OK, bases loaded, one out, Mauer coming up - if they get nothing out of this, it is the ultimate tease.

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 10:06 PM
Yes, rather disalacritous of him.

That's why I like the english language - it is always growing and evolving, with new words being created every day!

stringer bell
08-18-2012, 10:07 PM
I liked Florimon when I saw him in ST. He does stand about a head taller than Carroll or Casilla. I tuned in right after his triple so I didn't see him cruise around to third. He may have a power side (RH) and I wonder how he'll hit from the left side. His minor league numbers say he just isn't a major league quality hitter, but if he can field great and hit marginally, well that would be better than Dozier.

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 10:16 PM
Ugh! That's one of the few bad pitches Diamond has thrown.

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 10:25 PM
OK, maybe it's time to think about getting him out of there...

ashburyjohn
08-18-2012, 10:36 PM
Yes, rather disalacritous of him.

That's why I like the english language - it is always growing and evolving, with new words being created every day!

Very perspicacious of you.

Ted666
08-18-2012, 10:38 PM
How about some offense

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 10:47 PM
How about some offense

And ruin our chance to moan and b#tch and groan about how bad this team is? Don't be ridiculous.:o

jokin
08-18-2012, 10:55 PM
How about some offense

And ruin our chance to moan and b#tch and groan about how bad this team is? Don't be ridiculous.:o

One positive learned so far this weekend is that the Mariners could be a good trading partner, these guys can pitch...but man oh man, do they need hitters ( and we got em).

jokin
08-18-2012, 10:56 PM
I think they might have to recalibrate the computation variables of Range Factor if Pokemon sticks.

Ultima Ratio
08-18-2012, 10:58 PM
Over/Under on Willingham finishing the season with a sub .250 average?

Rather, True/False: Willingham finishes the season with a sub .250 average.

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 10:59 PM
I think they might have to recalibrate the computation variables of Range Factor if Pokemon sticks.

Now try picturing that play in your mind with Nishioka playing short - it isn't a pretty picture!

glunn
08-18-2012, 11:04 PM
.

Yes, rather disalacritous of him.[/QUOTE]

Good one.

jokin
08-18-2012, 11:05 PM
How about some offense

And ruin our chance to moan and b#tch and groan about how bad this team is? Don't be ridiculous.:o

A fundamentally perfect Sac Bunt? no way this Pokemon guy came up through the Twins org.....

jokin
08-18-2012, 11:05 PM
Good spot for your left-handed pinch hit bat......oh well.

glunn
08-18-2012, 11:07 PM
How about some offense

And ruin our chance to moan and b#tch and groan about how bad this team is? Don't be ridiculous.:o

One positive learned so far this weekend is that the Mariners could be a good trading partner, these guys can pitch...but man oh man, do they need hitters ( and we got em).

It does seem like a good match might exist.

glunn
08-18-2012, 11:09 PM
OK, fast guys at first and second and Mauer up. A double would really hit the spot now, then Perkins can come in and this can be over in time for me to pick up dinner.

glunn
08-18-2012, 11:14 PM
Hammer time!

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 11:14 PM
OK, is anybody else a little disappointed with this? I know a walk is usually a good thing, but given the situation wouldn't you rather have Mauer hit as opposed to Willingham? Having him load the bases doesn't do anything if Josh can't get a hit, and he's slumping a bit right now.

glunn
08-18-2012, 11:16 PM
OK, is anybody else a little disappointed with this? I know a walk is usually a good thing, but given the situation wouldn't you rather have Mauer hit as opposed to Willingham? Having him load the bases doesn't do anything if Josh can't get a hit, and he's slumping a bit right now.

I was happy to get the walk.

glunn
08-18-2012, 11:17 PM
Not a great result from the hammer. Time for me to pick up dinner.

Ultima Ratio
08-18-2012, 11:18 PM
Doesn't Mauer want to be the guy to win the game? The second strike he took was right down the middle. Compare that to Morneau.

Ultima Ratio
08-18-2012, 11:21 PM
OK, is anybody else a little disappointed with this? I know a walk is usually a good thing, but given the situation wouldn't you rather have Mauer hit as opposed to Willingham? Having him load the bases doesn't do anything if Josh can't get a hit, and he's slumping a bit right now.

Right, if they throw you 4 straight balls or even one strike you don't like that's one thing. But to be a franchise player and pass up even swinging at one of the two strikes, the second strike right in the happy zone--only to work a walk... that's way too passive, to be polite, and down right cowardly to be accurate.

Ted666
08-18-2012, 11:28 PM
Mauer takes a pitch right down the middle every AB

Ultima Ratio
08-18-2012, 11:29 PM
Gotta laugh, right?

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-18-2012, 11:31 PM
OK, is anybody else a little disappointed with this? I know a walk is usually a good thing, but given the situation wouldn't you rather have Mauer hit as opposed to Willingham? Having him load the bases doesn't do anything if Josh can't get a hit, and he's slumping a bit right now.

Right, if they throw you 4 straight balls or even one strike you don't like that's one thing. But to be a franchise player and pass up even swinging at one of the two strikes, the second strike right in the happy zone--only to work a walk... that's way too passive, to be polite, and down right cowardly to be accurate.

He was sitting on a fast ball on the 3-1 count, there is no reason for him to swing at a breaking ball there considering all he would have managed to do would be to get crappy contact/foul ball on it. It was a hell of a pitch.

The team's MVP who has 31 HR was on deck and had the bases loaded, Mauer had a nice at bat and extended the inning. Him taking a hack on the 3-1 breaking ball isn't the correct play.

Ted666
08-18-2012, 11:34 PM
Another L that should have been a W

TheLeviathan
08-18-2012, 11:34 PM
Yeah, that's how a catcher playing OF prepares for a tag....

Ultima Ratio
08-18-2012, 11:36 PM
Dave, we didn't need 4 RBI, just one. Mauer's RISP is pretty, pretty good and average way better than Hammer. Yeah, he is probably sitting dead red on fastball, but he's supposed to be able to handle a slider over the plate. At least offer at it.

IdahoPilgrim
08-18-2012, 11:39 PM
OK, is anybody else a little disappointed with this? I know a walk is usually a good thing, but given the situation wouldn't you rather have Mauer hit as opposed to Willingham? Having him load the bases doesn't do anything if Josh can't get a hit, and he's slumping a bit right now.

Right, if they throw you 4 straight balls or even one strike you don't like that's one thing. But to be a franchise player and pass up even swinging at one of the two strikes, the second strike right in the happy zone--only to work a walk... that's way too passive, to be polite, and down right cowardly to be accurate.

He was sitting on a fast ball on the 3-1 count, there is no reason for him to swing at a breaking ball there considering all he would have managed to do would be to get crappy contact/foul ball on it. It was a hell of a pitch.

The team's MVP who has 31 HR was on deck and had the bases loaded, Mauer had a nice at bat and extended the inning. Him taking a hack on the 3-1 breaking ball isn't the correct play.

I should be clear, I was not implying that Mauer did something wrong (I'm not schooled enough in the game to be able to judge that) - I was just expressing my frustration at how the at-bat turned out. Mauer is a better hitter than Willingham (and he's certainly more reliable right now), and a solid hit from him puts the Twins up. If the Seattle pitcher did a good job not giving Mauer something to hit, kudos to him. It still left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Ted666
08-18-2012, 11:40 PM
Caught it. Paused. Threw a rainbow 30 feet left of the plate. They should have him in one of their after game "instructionals"

TheLeviathan
08-18-2012, 11:42 PM
Caught it. Paused. Threw a rainbow 30 feet left of the plate. They should have him in one of their after game "instructionals"

And people are worried about putting Parmalee out there. Have they seen Doumit?

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-18-2012, 11:42 PM
Dave, we didn't need 4 RBI, just one. Mauer's RISP is pretty, pretty good and average way better than Hammer. Yeah, he is probably sitting dead red on fastball, but he's supposed to be able to handle a slider over the plate. At least offer at it.

RISP? Who the hell cares about that. What is the point of offering at a pitch in a 3-1 count (with Willingham! on deck) if you are sitting on a fastball the whole way? 3 things will typically happen.

1. Swing and miss.
2. Foul boul
3. Poorly hit ball for an out.

Of course there is a chance that he could have offered at it and gotten a hit, but Mauer didn't become one of the best hitters in the game by "offering" at 3-1 pitches. This is stuff you learn in any baseball above Little League. The pitcher made a great pitch, it is what it is.

Willingham has a .950 OPS on the season, I will take my chances with him at the plate and bases loaded any day of the week.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-18-2012, 11:45 PM
Yeah, that's how a catcher playing OF prepares for a tag....

That was comical, though I don't think it matters much anyways, that ball was hit pretty deep I believe, and Saunders has decent wheels.

Top Gun
08-19-2012, 12:23 AM
The Twins arn't trying very hard.

Bark's Lounge
08-19-2012, 12:44 AM
The Twins arn't trying very hard.

In all due respect dear sir, it appears that you and the Minnesota Twins share the same trait. Cherio!

jokin
08-19-2012, 02:32 AM
Dave, we didn't need 4 RBI, just one. Mauer's RISP is pretty, pretty good and average way better than Hammer. Yeah, he is probably sitting dead red on fastball, but he's supposed to be able to handle a slider over the plate. At least offer at it.

RISP? Who the hell cares about that. What is the point of offering at a pitch in a 3-1 count (with Willingham! on deck) if you are sitting on a fastball the whole way? 3 things will typically happen.

1. Swing and miss.
2. Foul boul
3. Poorly hit ball for an out.

Of course there is a chance that he could have offered at it and gotten a hit, but Mauer didn't become one of the best hitters in the game by "offering" at 3-1 pitches. This is stuff you learn in any baseball above Little League. The pitcher made a great pitch, it is what it is.

Willingham has a .950 OPS on the season, I will take my chances with him at the plate and bases loaded any day of the week.

Joe Christensen (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/166676076.html), rarely critical of the Twins, but apparently crabby because of West Coast deadline issues, disagrees with your take. I'm in the middle, Mauer had 2 of 6 pitches close to worth swinging at during the AB but he wasn't having a good night at the plate and there likely isn't anyone in the game better at judging the strike zone, and there was no way that Luetge was going to give him anything fat. Let the controversy ensue:



"I didnít have time to ask Mauer about his plate appearance, but Iím just going to say this: He has to have more urgency to swing the bat there. His otherworldly .414 on-base percentage is a big reason for whatever success the Twins have had offensively this year. But sometimes, a guy making $23 million per year needs to take it upon himself to take his shot.


If the Twins had one at-bat to win a game, the Twins would take Mauer/Luetge over Willingham/Wilhelmsen any day. Never mind that Mauer has 60 RBI and Willingham has 89. This was a spot for a batting champ, and Mauer is batting .319 compared to Willinghamís .259.

Mauer has to recognize this and take a rip at that 3-0 sinker. Maybe he figured heíd get another crack at 3-1, and Luetge threw a pretty good slider for strike two, but after another errant sinker, Mauer was bending down, unhooking his shin pad, waiting for someone else to do the heavy lifting."

http://apps.startribune.com/most_popular/?cmd=inc&type=view&section=/sports/twins/blogs&story_id=166676076

one_eyed_jack
08-19-2012, 07:47 AM
Surprising take from Joe C. He doesn't get that critical very often, this seems like a really odd choice to break the pattern.

What Mauer did there struck me as pretty defensible. His plate discipline is what makes him the hitter he is. If the situation had been different, and it were a stone cold Plouffe due up next, then maybe I could see ripping Mauer. But it was our top run producer on deck.

It's not like the time he tried to bunt with guys on base, which Laudner called "stupid" in the postgame.

JB_Iowa
08-19-2012, 09:28 AM
For me it comes down to this: the game was tied. It wasn't like they needed Willingham to come up and hit a grand slam.

Are you going to "man up" and take your best shot at giving your team a chance to win? Or are you going to pass the burden on to your teammate?

I guess Mauer could argue that by walking he was giving the team its "best shot". Looking at the statistics of both players, I have to question that.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-19-2012, 09:48 AM
For me it comes down to this: the game was tied. It wasn't like they needed Willingham to come up and hit a grand slam.

Are you going to "man up" and take your best shot at giving your team a chance to win? Or are you going to pass the burden on to your teammate?

I guess Mauer could argue that by walking he was giving the team its "best shot". Looking at the statistics of both players, I have to question that.

I stopped reading when you said "man up"

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-19-2012, 09:51 AM
Surprising take from Joe C. He doesn't get that critical very often, this seems like a really odd choice to break the pattern.

What Mauer did there struck me as pretty defensible. His plate discipline is what makes him the hitter he is. If the situation had been different, and it were a stone cold Plouffe due up next, then maybe I could see ripping Mauer. But it was our top run producer on deck.

It's not like the time he tried to bunt with guys on base, which Laudner called "stupid" in the postgame.

I mean Mauer has the highest OBP in the league, he isn't exactly the guy we should be ripping on for plate discipline, if anything the Twins should be using that at-bat as an example moving forward. (i.e. Walks help win games to!)

The funny thing is, if Mauer "mans up" and swings at that 3-1 pitch and hits a grounder back to the pitcher we would be getting posts and articles about how Joe wasn't clutch etc etc.

Ultima Ratio
08-19-2012, 12:18 PM
Surprising take from Joe C. He doesn't get that critical very often, this seems like a really odd choice to break the pattern.

What Mauer did there struck me as pretty defensible. His plate discipline is what makes him the hitter he is. If the situation had been different, and it were a stone cold Plouffe due up next, then maybe I could see ripping Mauer. But it was our top run producer on deck.

It's not like the time he tried to bunt with guys on base, which Laudner called "stupid" in the postgame.

I mean Mauer has the highest OBP in the league, he isn't exactly the guy we should be ripping on for plate discipline, if anything the Twins should be using that at-bat as an example moving forward. (i.e. Walks help win games to!)

The funny thing is, if Mauer "mans up" and swings at that 3-1 pitch and hits a grounder back to the pitcher we would be getting posts and articles about how Joe wasn't clutch etc etc.

Red herring.

Also, does anyone think Mauer didn't have a green light on 3-0? Sitting fastball (sinker) and got one -- for a called strike. It's not as if the only strike he could swing at was the 3-1 slider.

jokin
08-19-2012, 12:48 PM
Surprising take from Joe C. He doesn't get that critical very often, this seems like a really odd choice to break the pattern.

What Mauer did there struck me as pretty defensible. His plate discipline is what makes him the hitter he is. If the situation had been different, and it were a stone cold Plouffe due up next, then maybe I could see ripping Mauer. But it was our top run producer on deck.

It's not like the time he tried to bunt with guys on base, which Laudner called "stupid" in the postgame.

I mean Mauer has the highest OBP in the league, he isn't exactly the guy we should be ripping on for plate discipline, if anything the Twins should be using that at-bat as an example moving forward. (i.e. Walks help win games to!)

The funny thing is, if Mauer "mans up" and swings at that 3-1 pitch and hits a grounder back to the pitcher we would be getting posts and articles about how Joe wasn't clutch etc etc.

Red herring.

Also, does anyone think Mauer didn't have a green light on 3-0? Sitting fastball (sinker) and got one -- for a called strike. It's not as if the only strike he could swing at was the 3-1 slider.

That was my only concern, as well. It was fairly obvious that the Mariners weren't giving in to Mauer after the first pitch was called a ball. By the end of the AB, besides the obligatory strike on the 3-0 pitch and the nasty slider for strike 2, with Luetge mostly nibbling and avoiding the strike zone and Mauer adamantly refusing to lift the bat from his shoulder, it appeared (to me, anyway) that both sides preferred the BB to giving Mauer something decent to swing at, implying the Mariners were firm disbelievers in the cliche that "a walk is as good as a hit", and- contrary to Gleeman's supposition of the odds going up dramatically in the Twins favor- actually preferred and liked their chances with Wilhelmsen v Willingham.