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Nick Nelson
08-15-2012, 12:24 AM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?924-Dozier-s-Disastrous-Rookie-Season

glunn
08-15-2012, 01:08 AM
Interesting article!

I think that sending him down and giving Florimon a chance makes a lot of sense. Dozier might be able to better relax and improve his game at AAA, and I look forward to seeing Florimon's defense.

Seth Stohs
08-15-2012, 06:01 AM
My only point would have been that sending him down a month ago would have made sense. Like Nick pointed out, there's just 2 1/2 weeks left at Rochester. Florimon is intriguing. I'm intrigued by his glove. We know he's not likely to hit a lot, but if he can be a plus-plus defensive shortstop, what happens?

twinswon1991
08-15-2012, 06:55 AM
I dont know that I would classify it as a disaster but more of this is who he is. Dozier is too old to be considered a decent prospect and the org rankings everywhere reflected that. Dozier has a chance to be a fair utility guy at best which has value. Levi Michael is a similar "too old for his level" guy with utility upside but at least the Twins didnt waste a first rounder on Dozier.

diehardtwinsfan
08-15-2012, 07:20 AM
I think Nick is being a bit negative here. Baseball is littered with examples of people who didn't make it their first time around, and given that Dozier was hardly considered a big prospect, it's not surprising that he struggled. I do think he needs to earn his spot next year, but given his age, it isn't wise to write him off as a bust either. Let's see how he handles Rochester and how he does during his second stint before we call him a bust.

Brock Beauchamp
08-15-2012, 07:22 AM
I don't get it. If they thought this was necessary, it seems like the latest the move should have been made is August 1st. Doing it now doesn't make much sense.

twinsnorth49
08-15-2012, 07:36 AM
Very odd timing for sure, would like to see him get some reps at 2b when he's called back up. Too early in my mind to start throwing in the towel on him.

SeanS7921
08-15-2012, 08:13 AM
His defense at short wasn't that bad, errors aren't a great stat to go by. His UZR was right around 0 with over 700+ innings. I don't get why he never took pitches or seemed to take coaching direction though. If he could have taken 15 more walks and worked the count he would have had on OBP of 315 or so. That would be adequate with his defense. He made a lot of dumb plays in the field but I think you could chalk that up to being a rookie. But yeah in reality he didn't seem to care to not be Delmon Young at the plate and he is pretty old to suck that bad.

jimbo92107
08-15-2012, 08:36 AM
Brian Dozier desperately needs some time away from the pressure of mlb ball, nothing to do with age, he's just emotionally fried right now. His hitting has been sporadic, his batting stance, mechanics and mental approach need work. He's also getting dangerously tentative at SS. In other words, he's starting to look like Nisihioka.

Meanwhile, Pedro Florimon is hitting well enough to give him a look. Florimon's fielding reportedly is superb. Plug him in at short and don't worry. If Florimon shows he isn't overmatched at the plate, he could be next year's starting SS, maybe with Dozier at 2B.

Two weeks is a short time, but Dozier needs a break from the pressure to regroup and get his form back. Maybe it's enough for the kid to relax. Personally I think he can be a solid major leaguer. I don't know why we worry so much about this over or under 25 stuff. If we decided everything on that, we would have missed Denard Span, Torii Hunter, and Sam Deduno.

minn55441
08-15-2012, 09:08 AM
I don't get it. If they thought this was necessary, it seems like the latest the move should have been made is August 1st. Doing it now doesn't make much sense.

I agree, but I think a lot of the timing had to do with the fact that Plouffe was on the DL and they still wanted to give Nishi a shot. They didn't want to field an entirely new Middle infield. Now that Plouffe is back, Nishi's chance has come and gone they can get on with letting some of the other things play out.

For me it comes down to "what do you want from your middle infielders"? Defense has to come first with this team. Let the other positions carry the offensive load. Granted we can't have a .190 hitter at short, but if we can get above average fielding at SS I can live with a .245 hitter with little power.

Thrylos
08-15-2012, 09:26 AM
For me it comes down to "what do you want from your middle infielders"? Defense has to come first with this team. Let the other positions carry the offensive load. Granted we can't have a .190 hitter at short, but if we can get above average fielding at SS I can live with a .245 hitter with little power.


Agree. That's why I see no reason that the best defensive middle IF in this team (Casilla) should not be playing every day.

I think the Dozier demotion might be to help him get down there, work with Brunanksy and build his confidence up. Also, auditioning Florimon makes sense because they would need to make some decisions for next season. Pretty excited to see a Florimon/Casilla DP combination, but I am not sure that is happening. Carroll was pretty atrocious at SS last night

Winston Smith
08-15-2012, 09:30 AM
Who was the last infielder that came up thru the system that actually stuck and played quality baseball for several years?
From the lat 90' to 2004 Rivas, Guzman, Koskie and Minty played together and were solid by all accounts. From that time nobody has had an extended amount of solid play other than Morneau. Doesn't that really say a lot about the drafting and scouting this team has?

Mr. Ed
08-15-2012, 09:31 AM
yet no mention on Carroll's D last night in the postgame stuff. He's no longer a SS, but will likely command too many innings there.

Lowered expectations with this team. Slug hitters in the middle is ok as long as they can play D.

Shows what happens when the talent pool is thin.

Mr. Ed
08-15-2012, 09:33 AM
Who was the last infielder that came up thru the system that actually stuck and played quality baseball for several years?
From the lat 90' to 2004 Rivas, Guzman, Koskie and Minty played together and were solid by all accounts. From that time nobody has had an extended amount of solid play other than Morneau. Doesn't that really say a lot about the drafting and scouting this team has?

Absolutely. Same applies to pitching. They've done quite lousy overall of late.

cr9617
08-15-2012, 09:54 AM
We shouldn't be surprised by his struggles. One good season in the minors doesn't really mean all that much. Our media here talked him up like he was the next big thing. He's not.
He looks like a utility guy to me.

savvyspy
08-15-2012, 10:10 AM
Just another example of the rudderless Twins front office chasing this fantasy that "there are no scholarships". That obviously only pertains to rookies who they feel the need to humiliate publicly to mask the fact that they have no plan and can't manage a roster. So its totally fine to trot Blackburn and Deunsing out there but you are drawing the line with Dozier??? That's ridiculous. Especially since you have NO ONE to replace him because you refuse to sign productive free agent or trade at the deadline to make your team better. The only thing guaranteed by this move is Florimon won't come close to batting .230 and isn't going to be an upgrade by really the only statistic that matters, wins. This isn't Dozier's fault. This is purely an organizational failure.

greengoblinrulz
08-15-2012, 10:26 AM
Bascially the Twins are saying that Joe Vavra can do nothing with Dozier & they need Brunansky to work with him for a couple wks.
Remember how horrible Ben Revere was at the plate last yr....sometimes it takes an offseason for everything to sink in
Dont know if they wanted to waste an option year tho....

CDog
08-15-2012, 10:31 AM
Just another example of the rudderless Twins front office chasing this fantasy that "there are no scholarships". That obviously only pertains to rookies who they feel the need to humiliate publicly to mask the fact that they have no plan and can't manage a roster. So its totally fine to trot Blackburn and Deunsing out there but you are drawing the line with Dozier??? That's ridiculous. Especially since you have NO ONE to replace him because you refuse to sign productive free agent or trade at the deadline to make your team better. The only thing guaranteed by this move is Florimon won't come close to batting .230 and isn't going to be an upgrade by really the only statistic that matters, wins. This isn't Dozier's fault. This is purely an organizational failure.

How in the world is it publicly humiliating a guy to send him down to the minors after he struggles for months on end? Once he comes up, he has to stay forever? Don't look now, but that's the problem you're ranting against.

Over and over and over they've supported Dozier, said they think he can be a good major league shortstop, given him time and experience to grow and improve, and talked positively even about his mistakes. My goodness. StarTrib comment section is just down the street.

nicksaviking
08-15-2012, 10:39 AM
So the Twins trade for the division leading White Sox's utility infielder and the Twins' system is so much better that he can't even beat Pedro Florimon to Target Field?

stringer bell
08-15-2012, 10:51 AM
I thought a lot of Dozier's at-bats left something to be desired. Swinging early at pitcher's pitches, making a lot of soft contact, and a poor K/BB ratio. That said, I thought his defense had stabilized as acceptable and that he was playing fairly sound fundamental baseball.

I didn't witness the extra inning play that seemed to ignite conflict, but seldom has a Twins player been criticized for taking a sure out.

Rosterman
08-15-2012, 11:07 AM
Why not just keep Toshi as the reserve. We need the 40-man spot, two guys coming off the 60-day shortly which means two players have to be designated for assignment or waived.

CDog
08-15-2012, 11:24 AM
I didn't witness the extra inning play that seemed to ignite conflict, but seldom has a Twins player been criticized for taking a sure out.

I think too much has been made of that one play simply because it was the last thing he did, essentially. In live action, both my friend and I at the game thought he had no play other than the one he made (contrary to common belief, sitting in the stands isn't always/often the best vantage point to tell those things). The guy next to us thought he should have tried to start the double-play. When I caught the re-airing later, I thought he should have gone home. Even there, Blyleven thought one thing initially and then with the help of replay after the pitching change thought maybe something else (I forget which was his first and which was his subsequent reaction). Gardenhire has said in a bunch of outlets (although he may have only said it once and it was just reported several) that he liked Dozier's thoughts and process and only thought that in that very specific game situation that he maybe should have made a different choice (and had to go to video to show him what he meant and used it as a teachable moment). He also pointed out that Dozier was the one out in the fire and that the information he had wasn't the same as what someone watching might have. I'm rambling, but the point is, I don't think that play had much to do with any decisions on Dozier.

twinsnorth49
08-15-2012, 11:36 AM
Just another example of the rudderless Twins front office chasing this fantasy that "there are no scholarships". That obviously only pertains to rookies who they feel the need to humiliate publicly to mask the fact that they have no plan and can't manage a roster. So its totally fine to trot Blackburn and Deunsing out there but you are drawing the line with Dozier??? That's ridiculous. Especially since you have NO ONE to replace him because you refuse to sign productive free agent or trade at the deadline to make your team better. The only thing guaranteed by this move is Florimon won't come close to batting .230 and isn't going to be an upgrade by really the only statistic that matters, wins. This isn't Dozier's fault. This is purely an organizational failure.

Well I agree partly with the Blackie part, although he got sent down at one point this year as well, was that to humiliate him? Duensing is only starting (which he shouldn't be) because Pavano is a mess and Hendriks is working on his super-duper Tilt-a Whirl pitch before he gets called back up. With all the other gaping holes this team had to fill last off-season and cut payroll, what were they to spend on a free agent MI other than Carroll or who were they going to give up on in trade?

I don't see Dozier's demotion as a humiliation, it should have come earlier but's it not designed to embarrass him, plus at this point I really don't think it needs to be something we sell our soul to fill for next year.

diehardtwinsfan
08-15-2012, 11:42 AM
not quite sure why teh FO/Gardy is getting heat here. My complaint with Gardy in particular is that he never lets rookies work through things... he did exactly that with Dozier. I do think he should have gone down a bit sooner, but injuries might have forced that a bit... Hopefully teh kid can put things back together in Rochester and force his way on to the team next season.

ossieO
08-15-2012, 11:50 AM
I don't get it. If they thought this was necessary, it seems like the latest the move should have been made is August 1st. Doing it now doesn't make much sense.

I agree, but I think a lot of the timing had to do with the fact that Plouffe was on the DL and they still wanted to give Nishi a shot. They didn't want to field an entirely new Middle infield. Now that Plouffe is back, Nishi's chance has come and gone they can get on with letting some of the other things play out.

For me it comes down to "what do you want from your middle infielders"? Defense has to come first with this team. Let the other positions carry the offensive load. Granted we can't have a .190 hitter at short, but if we can get above average fielding at SS I can live with a .245 hitter with little power.

I agree Plouffe's DL stint was probably a factor. I also think Florimon was on the DL recently, so there was perhaps a lack of options when thinking about a Dozier demotion.

DAM DC Twins Fans
08-15-2012, 11:52 AM
Why not just keep Toshi as the reserve. We need the 40-man spot, two guys coming off the 60-day shortly which means two players have to be designated for assignment or waived.

Good point--dont Hicks and Arcia have to be added this winter too??

I do not understand timing--2 weeks in Rochester will not do much...

This all goes back to the Delmon trade...we wouldnt be having this discussion if Jason Bartlett was still here.

108 Double Stitches
08-15-2012, 12:45 PM
My guess its a message -- don't get too comfortable. And Dozier' level of production isn't enough in the long run.

I was kind of comformtablely numb with Dozier's play. Low expectations and bigger problems elsewhere on the roster. Even if you can't expect much skill improvement in 2 weeks, maybe an attitude or wake up call can be made. A little reminder that come spring training, ss will at the very least be an open competition.0

SeanS7921
08-15-2012, 12:50 PM
yet no mention on Carroll's D last night in the postgame stuff. He's no longer a SS, but will likely command too many innings there.

Lowered expectations with this team. Slug hitters in the middle is ok as long as they can play D.

Shows what happens when the talent pool is thin.

Carroll just missed a great play early in the game and had a crazy hop that was hardly his fault. If you look at advanced stats he has been exceptional at SS, great at 3B and awesome at 2B. The guy can flat out field.

Thrylos
08-15-2012, 12:56 PM
we wouldnt be having this discussion if Jason Bartlett was still here.

he hit .133/.240/.193 in a month for the Padres this season, after hitting .245/.308/.307 last season, and has been on the DL since mid May... not much of a solution at this point. He is 32, been hurt multiple times and past his prime

Curt
08-15-2012, 12:58 PM
I would not call Dozier's season a disaster but he has played poorly. He certainly has not played well enough to warrant a starting position in the major leagues or even a roster spot and it makes sense to give someone else a shot.

I'm glad he got a chance and I hoped he would succeed. I still would like that. If Dozier has what it takes, he'll be back. He might just stick then. If the Twins have anyone in their org who will lock onto the starting shortstop position and hold it they are doing a good job of keeping it a secret.

The Twins are not punishing Dozier. It's tough to earn a major league job and the competition for it should be fierce.

70charger
08-15-2012, 01:04 PM
I think Nick is being a bit negative here. Baseball is littered with examples of people who didn't make it their first time around, and given that Dozier was hardly considered a big prospect, it's not surprising that he struggled. I do think he needs to earn his spot next year, but given his age, it isn't wise to write him off as a bust either. Let's see how he handles Rochester and how he does during his second stint before we call him a bust.

I agree with this. We needed to have tempered expectations from the very beginning, but what Dozier has done isn't really out of the ordinary. He's a rookie who struggled. What else is new?

Hopefully, the demotion will give him a message that he's got to listen to the coaches and earn it on the field, but I don't think there's any embarrassment there. Nor should there be. I still have hopes that Dozier will be more than a utility guy. Maybe he won't stick at his position for a decade plus, but he could stick around longer than we think.

StormJH1
08-15-2012, 01:10 PM
We shouldn't be surprised by his struggles. One good season in the minors doesn't really mean all that much. Our media here talked him up like he was the next big thing. He's not.
He looks like a utility guy to me.

This.

I understand that Dozier hasn't been good. I'm okay with classifying him as a somewhat "bad" baseball player right now. But to say that he's season has been a "disaster" indicates that there was some expectation he was going to be this plus defender with a great bat right out of the gate. In reality, he was a post-hype prospect before he ever got here, and if even his glove had been decent, we'd have called him up last year.

I don't think there was any realistic expectation for Dozier to be an MLB starter. This is the problem with Twins fans - they just assume that the next guy in line in AAA is the next Mauer, Morneau, or Kubel....or at least a "prospect" of some kind. That isn't always the case, and the Twins' farm system just hasn't been producing those 22-25 year old guys recently. Plouffe may be the one exception, if he stays productive.

Seth Stohs
08-15-2012, 01:12 PM
I dont know that I would classify it as a disaster but more of this is who he is. Dozier is too old to be considered a decent prospect and the org rankings everywhere reflected that. Dozier has a chance to be a fair utility guy at best which has value. Levi Michael is a similar "too old for his level" guy with utility upside but at least the Twins didnt waste a first rounder on Dozier.

I agree that Levi Michael is a future utility infielder in the majors, but how can you say he's too old for his level? He turned 21 in February, so he's about 21.5 years old. The average hitter on the Ft. Myers Miracle roster is 22.5, and the average age of a hitter in the Florida State League is 22.7.

tomcat
08-15-2012, 03:15 PM
Running players back and forth between Mpls and Rochester appears to be Twins management way of demonstrating they are in control and are keen evaluators of players talents. I believe it shows just the opposite, they are throwing darts at board hoping someone will prove capable of positively contributing for longer than two weeks at a time. Ryan needs to be put out to pasture.

one_eyed_jack
08-15-2012, 05:34 PM
We shouldn't be surprised by his struggles. One good season in the minors doesn't really mean all that much. Our media here talked him up like he was the next big thing. He's not.
He looks like a utility guy to me.

This.

I understand that Dozier hasn't been good. I'm okay with classifying him as a somewhat "bad" baseball player right now. But to say that he's season has been a "disaster" indicates that there was some expectation he was going to be this plus defender with a great bat right out of the gate. In reality, he was a post-hype prospect before he ever got here, and if even his glove had been decent, we'd have called him up last year.

I don't think there was any realistic expectation for Dozier to be an MLB starter. This is the problem with Twins fans - they just assume that the next guy in line in AAA is the next Mauer, Morneau, or Kubel....or at least a "prospect" of some kind. That isn't always the case, and the Twins' farm system just hasn't been producing those 22-25 year old guys recently. Plouffe may be the one exception, if he stays productive.

And this. No doubt he hasn't been playing well and deserved to be sent down. But his stint up here wasn't a total loss. He made some nice plays in the field, and showed he has some pop in his bat. So the term 'disastrous' strikes me as a bit of an overstatement. Nishioka was disastrous. Dozier is a rookie who struggled in his first stint in the majors, but you at least some glimpses of a competent MLB player.

SydneyTwinsFan
08-15-2012, 06:29 PM
"Disaster" seems a bit harsh from my perspective. His plate discipline has been disappointing given his minor league track record, but a rookie needing to make adjustments in this regard is nothing new. In the field he's made some errorrs, but has shown decent range and turned his share of double plays. I'd like to think he can come back up later in the year or next season and show a competent ML skill set. At least he's cheap - Dozier + $6m > JJ Hardy.

Jim H
08-15-2012, 07:50 PM
I don't think Dozier was a disaster either. I also think it far too early to decide he is a utility player. He is really no worse than Bartlett was in his first go round with the Twins.

An interesting question is why send him down now? My take on the answer is Ryan is trying to figure out what he has for next year. Florimon is probably not the answer as the starting SS but if he is even a temporary answer or a potential utility man, well that is one less thing to look for this off season. Assuming they still view Dozier as the medium term solution at short, then maybe they don't add a middle infielder or they target a 2b and let Florimon/Carroll handle short until Dozier is really ready.

Ryan has indicated that he thinks there is more to fix than just starting pitching. He hasn't been all that specific on what he thinks needs changing/fixing. I am beginning to think that while he won't blow up the team, he will make more significant changes than just sign a couple of free agent pitchers.

peterb18
08-15-2012, 08:47 PM
yet no mention on Carroll's D last night in the postgame stuff. He's no longer a SS, but will likely command too many innings there.

Lowered expectations with this team. Slug hitters in the middle is ok as long as they can play D.

Shows what happens when the talent pool is thin.

Carroll just missed a great play early in the game and had a crazy hop that was hardly his fault. If you look at advanced stats he has been exceptional at SS, great at 3B and awesome at 2B. The guy can flat out field.

Carroll is just a good baseball player. I really enjoy watching him play. If Dozier and Michael after over 3,000 at bats have a .274 lifetime average and can play the field like Jamie, the Twins would be very happy!

jokin
08-15-2012, 09:21 PM
"Disaster" seems a bit harsh from my perspective. His plate discipline has been disappointing given his minor league track record, but a rookie needing to make adjustments in this regard is nothing new. In the field he's made some errorrs, but has shown decent range and turned his share of double plays. I'd like to think he can come back up later in the year or next season and show a competent ML skill set. At least he's cheap - Dozier + $6m > JJ Hardy.

This simply is untrue. Hardy is most certainly not having a great year at the plate, in large part due to the luck factor involved with his numbers being pulled down by a low BABIP (.235), but his fielding has stayed at a near elite level. But the WAR numbers completely contradict what you state:

Hardy WAR 1.1 Value $5M FLD 5.6 (Baseball Reference WAR: 1.5/RAR 16)
Dozier WAR 0.0 Value -$0.1M FLD -0.9 (Baseball Reference WAR: 0.4/RAR 5)

As a true Gardy guy, Dozier will get plenty more chances at SS or 2B, I agree that he has shown enough flashes to have earned those extra second chances.

70charger
08-15-2012, 10:28 PM
"Disaster" seems a bit harsh from my perspective. His plate discipline has been disappointing given his minor league track record, but a rookie needing to make adjustments in this regard is nothing new. In the field he's made some errorrs, but has shown decent range and turned his share of double plays. I'd like to think he can come back up later in the year or next season and show a competent ML skill set. At least he's cheap - Dozier + $6m > JJ Hardy.

This simply is untrue. Hardy is most certainly not having a great year at the plate, in large part due to the luck factor involved with his numbers being pulled down by a low BABIP (.235), but his fielding has stayed at a near elite level. But the WAR numbers completely contradict what you state:

Hardy WAR 1.1 Value $5M FLD 5.6 (Baseball Reference WAR: 1.5/RAR 16)
Dozier WAR 0.0 Value -$0.1M FLD -0.9 (Baseball Reference WAR: 0.4/RAR 5)

As a true Gardy guy, Dozier will get plenty more chances at SS or 2B, I agree that he has shown enough flashes to have earned those extra second chances.

Can you buy 1.1 or 1.2 WAR with that extra $6 million? I think you can. And if so, the math works.

Basically what I'm saying is that nobody really thinks that Dozier is better than Hardy at the moment. But is Dozier minus $6 million in salary commitment better than an over the hill shortstop with good defense, too many injuries, and no bat? Yeah, probably.

CDog
08-15-2012, 11:51 PM
The question keeps coming up why they waited until now. Here's my absolutely non-factual, non-informed guess. They had talked about it--maybe were even ready to do it--and then Plouffe got hurt leaving them an infielder short. OK, we'll keep him up. Plouffe then needs to miss more time than they thought, and they still need to keep him up plus they bring up Nishioka. Nishioka plays three of the worst games anyone can remember. And now it would be ridiculous to send Dozier down while Nishioka is still with the team. But they keep Nishioka over the weekend as emergency backup with no Plouffe, send him down, and then send Dozier down after Plouffe is back. Wouldn't it make more sense if he had been sent down three weeks ago? And it fits with some comments from even before the move was made that they had been discussing it for a while.

To reiterate, that's complete conjecture, but I'm a little bored tonight.

Shane Wahl
08-16-2012, 12:02 AM
There he is, Brian Dozier, at short for Rochester tonight. This is just straight dumb as hell. There is a clear path for him at 2B. A solid defensive 2B with a bit of power and baseball smarts would be good in 2013. Casilla only had one of those qualities and Carroll two of them. They actually moved Escobar to 3B at Rochester!!!! Florimon deserves a chance, yes, but that has to come why Dozier is playing 2B in Rochester. This is obvious.

Shane Wahl
08-16-2012, 12:06 AM
Rantz needs to be fired. This is clear. There was zero reason to promote Dozier given his AAA performance. This organization should view AA and AAA differently. AAA time does good things for players (see Parmelee and Revere this year, FINALLY). Stagnating them at AA and them jumping them to MLB without adequate AAA experience has demonstrated an incompetent approach to the Minors on the part of Rantz and company. Dozier is merely more evidence for my claim that significant AAA time is valuable (hopefully Hendriks continues this).

70charger
08-16-2012, 12:43 AM
Rantz needs to be fired. This is clear. There was zero reason to promote Dozier given his AAA performance. This organization should view AA and AAA differently. AAA time does good things for players (see Parmelee and Revere this year, FINALLY). Stagnating them at AA and them jumping them to MLB without adequate AAA experience has demonstrated an incompetent approach to the Minors on the part of Rantz and company. Dozier is merely more evidence for my claim that significant AAA time is valuable (hopefully Hendriks continues this).

Blah, blah, blah, fire the bums!

Exactly who do you think was better than Dozier when he was called up? Who is better than Dozier now? Exactly what the **** does Jim Rantz have to do with it?

Top Gun
08-16-2012, 12:49 AM
Dozier did ok, give him a little break, he will be back up sept 1.

Shane Wahl
08-16-2012, 01:11 AM
Rantz needs to be fired. This is clear. There was zero reason to promote Dozier given his AAA performance. This organization should view AA and AAA differently. AAA time does good things for players (see Parmelee and Revere this year, FINALLY). Stagnating them at AA and them jumping them to MLB without adequate AAA experience has demonstrated an incompetent approach to the Minors on the part of Rantz and company. Dozier is merely more evidence for my claim that significant AAA time is valuable (hopefully Hendriks continues this).

Blah, blah, blah, fire the bums!

Exactly who do you think was better than Dozier when he was called up? Who is better than Dozier now? Exactly what the **** does Jim Rantz have to do with it?

It isn't blah, blah, blah. Dozier is better than Alexi Casilla. But that does not mean that Dozier replaces Casilla before Dozier has had a chance to prove himself this year in the minors. He had an excellent 2011 as an MI. But only into AA. I would have liked to see that extend to AAA this year, but the Twins have a ridiculous view about AAA. Dozier was NOT good in his limited time, but they promoted him anyway. I would have preferred him seeing time at both MI positions at Rochester and posting a .720+ OPS before calling him up. Casilla was there all along. Florimon has less upside and could have been the other guy on the roster when Valencia was demoted. Or Burroughs.

Nick Nelson
08-16-2012, 01:25 AM
Many people have claimed that calling Dozier's debut stint a disaster is hyperbole. Maybe they're right. I might be off the mark, but I'm puzzled when I see comments like "Dozier has been OK" because in my mind he's been a complete mess. Among the worst hitters in the major leagues, and his defense to me has been a liability. I guess you can be generous and say he's got decent range, but for a guy whose polish and intangibles were supposed to make up for a lack of exceptional talent, the rate of misplays has been to me unacceptable.

I'm not passing eternal judgment on him, but given that I've been forced to pin my hopes on him becoming the team's answer at 2B/SS, I can't hide my disappointment over what he showed in a non-tiny 85-game audition.

twinsnorth49
08-16-2012, 10:20 AM
Rantz needs to be fired. This is clear. There was zero reason to promote Dozier given his AAA performance. This organization should view AA and AAA differently. AAA time does good things for players (see Parmelee and Revere this year, FINALLY). Stagnating them at AA and them jumping them to MLB without adequate AAA experience has demonstrated an incompetent approach to the Minors on the part of Rantz and company. Dozier is merely more evidence for my claim that significant AAA time is valuable (hopefully Hendriks continues this).

Blah, blah, blah, fire the bums!

Exactly who do you think was better than Dozier when he was called up? Who is better than Dozier now? Exactly what the **** does Jim Rantz have to do with it?

It isn't blah, blah, blah. Dozier is better than Alexi Casilla. But that does not mean that Dozier replaces Casilla before Dozier has had a chance to prove himself this year in the minors. He had an excellent 2011 as an MI. But only into AA. I would have liked to see that extend to AAA this year, but the Twins have a ridiculous view about AAA. Dozier was NOT good in his limited time, but they promoted him anyway. I would have preferred him seeing time at both MI positions at Rochester and posting a .720+ OPS before calling him up. Casilla was there all along. Florimon has less upside and could have been the other guy on the roster when Valencia was demoted. Or Burroughs.

I haven't seen the evidence of that yet, sadly.

USAFChief
08-16-2012, 12:30 PM
There he is, Brian Dozier, at short for Rochester tonight. This is just straight dumb as hell. There is a clear path for him at 2B. A solid defensive 2B with a bit of power and baseball smarts would be good in 2013. Casilla only had one of those qualities and Carroll two of them. They actually moved Escobar to 3B at Rochester!!!! Florimon deserves a chance, yes, but that has to come why Dozier is playing 2B in Rochester. This is obvious.

I think what would be dumb as hell would be overreacting to a poor rookie debut and moving a SS off SS until there is more evidence he cant play SS. Or at least until SS is filled by a better option.

But then again I thought it would have been dumb as hell to overreact to 100 PAs against LHers and platoon Morneau with Danny Valencia too, so what do I know?

Dilligaf69
08-16-2012, 01:37 PM
Rantz needs to be fired. This is clear. There was zero reason to promote Dozier given his AAA performance. This organization should view AA and AAA differently. AAA time does good things for players (see Parmelee and Revere this year, FINALLY). Stagnating them at AA and them jumping them to MLB without adequate AAA experience has demonstrated an incompetent approach to the Minors on the part of Rantz and company. Dozier is merely more evidence for my claim that significant AAA time is valuable (hopefully Hendriks continues this).

Blah, blah, blah, fire the bums!

Exactly who do you think was better than Dozier when he was called up? Who is better than Dozier now? Exactly what the **** does Jim Rantz have to do with it?



I agree it had more to do with lack of options then anything else and most EVERYBODY wanted Dozier on this team in April...now I realize that Nishi was the other option but that's my point. I also do not agree that his entire season so far has been a disaster. Yes he needs to improve his consistency and K/W ratio and be better defensively but he was'nt completely useless. he showed flasehes dfensively and some occasional pop. Ithink the Twins should move him to 2B and find an everyday SS via trade. Dozier still has a bright future with this team IMO and I think many would agree??

Dilligaf69
08-16-2012, 01:41 PM
There he is, Brian Dozier, at short for Rochester tonight. This is just straight dumb as hell. There is a clear path for him at 2B. A solid defensive 2B with a bit of power and baseball smarts would be good in 2013. Casilla only had one of those qualities and Carroll two of them. They actually moved Escobar to 3B at Rochester!!!! Florimon deserves a chance, yes, but that has to come why Dozier is playing 2B in Rochester. This is obvious.

I think what would be dumb as hell would be overreacting to a poor rookie debut and moving a SS off SS until there is more evidence he cant play SS. Or at least until SS is filled by a better option.

But then again I thought it would have been dumb as hell to overreact to 100 PAs against LHers and platoon Morneau with Danny Valencia too, so what do I know?

Yes....only move Dozier to 2B IF they find a better option at SS!...hence my idea of maybe accuiring a SS this offseason. If Hammer/Justin/Span can't /won't net us a top starter then they can probably net us a starting SS.

TheLeviathan
08-16-2012, 01:57 PM
At this point - Carroll and Casilla are both better options than Dozier. Unfortunately, Dozier should have been refining his game in AAA weeks ago and getting an extended trial the last month and a half. As it is, they basically took an entire season to watch him fail miserably and make zero progress towards being a better option.

USAFChief
08-16-2012, 07:20 PM
At this point - Carroll and Casilla are both better options than Dozier.

38 yr old Jamie Carroll? How does that help the mythical 2014 Twins team you advocate?

The same Alexi Casilla who has a lower BA, OBP and SLG than Dozier? Who was given the SS position out of spring training last year but couldn't hold on to it for a month and a half? Who hasnt even been able to hold onto the 2nd base job despite multiple opportunities? That Alexi Casilla?

TheLeviathan
08-16-2012, 08:09 PM
38 yr old Jamie Carroll? How does that help the mythical 2014 Twins team you advocate?

The same Alexi Casilla who has a lower BA, OBP and SLG than Dozier? Who was given the SS position out of spring training last year but couldn't hold on to it for a month and a half? Who hasnt even been able to hold onto the 2nd base job despite multiple opportunities? That Alexi Casilla?

Yes, that Alexi Casilla. The one we should cut after this season. The way Dozier has played the position defensively, it's not a stretch to say Casilla would be better right now.

Anyone who suggests that we should be worried about winning now and next season (as you have) shouldn't be advocating Dozier to be getting significant time until he's actually ready. He's spent the last three months demonstrating that he is not ready and shouldn't be playing. Personally - I think he should have been sent down at the all-star break, worked on things for a month, and come back right around now. He's potentially part of the future so we should've been treating his development with more care.

But the idea that he's clearly the best SS option we have isn't backed up by his play - defensively or offensively.

BD57
08-16-2012, 09:27 PM
Greg Gagne hit .225 in 114 games his first year playing any significant amount. Granted, he was 23 at the time .... if that really means anything.

Dozier has done some good things and has screwed up some things. He has obvious weaknesses - issue isn't "how old are you?", it's "will you learn & improve?"

Not saying he's going to become a "average or better MLB SS" .... I am saying I think it's a mistake to write hom off.

twinsnorth49
08-16-2012, 09:46 PM
At this point - Carroll and Casilla are both better options than Dozier.

38 yr old Jamie Carroll? How does that help the mythical 2014 Twins team you advocate?

The same Alexi Casilla who has a lower BA, OBP and SLG than Dozier? Who was given the SS position out of spring training last year but couldn't hold on to it for a month and a half? Who hasnt even been able to hold onto the 2nd base job despite multiple opportunities? That Alexi Casilla?

Christ, this is like comparing the bottom rung of the ladder to the second rung, pretty sad state of affairs when you're supporting one of these guys over the other. Dozier may have (marginally) higher BA, OBP and SLG than Casilla but if he is the future at one of the MI spots his line better look a whole lot better than Casilla's to make up for his defense. Dozier is only the future on this club if he is a significant upgrade at the plate than guys like Casilla and others who profile like him.