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SweetOne69
08-14-2012, 07:34 AM
I know that Thrylos' thread was closed and if TPTB decide to delete this one as well that is fine.

I think that the Property of Twins was appropriate in regards to Delmon and it had nothing to do with race.

I believe that players are Property of their clubs until they have achieved enough service time to become free agents. Up until that time, the club owns their rights and it is their choice whether or not the players are a part of the team.

After they become free agents the players can the control and can choose which team they want to play for, thus they are referred to as members.

Brock Beauchamp
08-14-2012, 07:43 AM
That makes sense as property implies ownership, which clubs have over players for six years. I have no real problem with the use of the word, though I can understand how others may feel differently.

But whether you agree or disagree with its usage, the term certainly does not make Dick Bremer a racist.

crarko
08-14-2012, 07:52 AM
My feeling is that if the players had a big problem with this it would be mentioned by the Player's Association. I don't think it would be the worst thing to have the term banned in the next CBA.

But I'm not going to call for people getting fired over it either. This is an educational problem, not a knee-jerk one.

Riverbrian
08-14-2012, 07:59 AM
That makes sense as property implies ownership, which clubs have over players for six years. I have no real problem with the use of the word, though I can understand how others may feel differently.

But whether you agree or disagree with its usage, the term certainly does not make Dick Bremer a racist.

Has anyone ever tried talking for 3 hours every night? I challenge some of you tonight. Turn the sound down on your TV and try to broadcast the game. The overwhelming majority of you will be done by the first inning or batter.

Give Dick a break and safely conclude that property means absolutely nothing and was one word out of a thousand different words uttered in the space of 3 hours of a slow moving game... That was game 115 out of a 162 game season.

Also... How closely do you have to listen and pay attention to the thousands of words said in game 115 out of 162 to even catch "property" or "member" and who the hell else notices such things? How hard do you have to look for it???

You pretty much need a microscope to see racism in this situation and industrial strength molehill to mountain machinery to even present it to others.

It's 2012

DPJ
08-14-2012, 08:09 AM
I'm gonna say he's a racist, not KKK outwardly but a closet racist like 90% of America.

Brock Beauchamp
08-14-2012, 08:18 AM
Has anyone ever tried talking for 3 hours every night? I challenge some of you tonight. Turn the sound down on your TV and try to broadcast the game. The overwhelming majority of you will be done by the first inning or batter.

Give Dick a break and safely conclude that property means absolutely nothing and was one word out of a thousand different words uttered in the space of 3 hours of a slow moving game... That was game 115 out of a 162 game season.

Also... How closely do you have to listen and pay attention to the thousands of words said in game 115 out of 162 to even catch "property" or "member" and who the hell else notices such things? How hard do you have to look for it???

You pretty much need a microscope to see racism in this situation and industrial strength molehill to mountain machinery to even present it to others.

It's 2012

As I mentioned in the locked thread, I view this kind of "creeping racism" as a problem with society as a whole, not any particular person. Bremer certainly meant nothing hurtful by the remark but that doesn't necessarily make it okay or make it right. As a white male, it's not my call to decide which terms are offensive and which are not. Bremer has to talk a lot every night and I'm almost positive that he has used the term to refer to players of every color. But, again, that doesn't mean we should be using the term in 2012 America.

As a middle-class white male, stuff happens around me all that time that I never consider "racist" or "hurtful" but that doesn't mean it isn't hurtful to others. Admittedly, I'm oblivious to many such incidents because they don't affect me, my heritage, or my immediate circle of friends/family.

Either way, it does not make him a racist. It might make him a little oblivious to things he says (something we're all guilty of doing, no matter your race or creed) but it doesn't make him some kind of White Devil and calling him out as such is over the top and unnecessarily inflammatory.

USAFChief
08-14-2012, 08:21 AM
I'm gonna say he's a racist, not KKK outwardly but a closet racist like 90% of America.

Wait, what? I thought "closet" referred to teh gays. I can't keep up with you kids anymore.

DPJ
08-14-2012, 08:21 AM
A site run and populated by a bunch of white 20-30 something year old males, I'm shocked no one else has taken offense to this.

Brock Beauchamp
08-14-2012, 08:22 AM
Wait, what? I thought "closet" referred to teh gays. I can't keep up with you kids anymore.

R Kelly took it back for the black man.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFosUj6A22c

James
08-14-2012, 08:27 AM
I heard the statement last night. My eyebrow raised for a second, especially after saying that Thome was a member of the team. And then I continued watching the game and forgot about the comment. It wasn't Bremer's finest word choice, but I don't think he meant it the way some are interpreting. If he wants to apologize to Delmon, fine. If not, I don't think anyone will really notice.

birdwatcher
08-14-2012, 08:33 AM
Speaking of inflammatory, how are you this morning, DPJ?

DPJ
08-14-2012, 08:37 AM
Speaking of inflammatory, how are you this morning, DPJ?

Fighting the good fight, not letting the white man keep me down.

Fire Dan Gladden
08-14-2012, 08:39 AM
Can someone please find an example of Jason Whitlock or Doug Glanville describing a player as a team's property to put this inane discussion to bed?

The using the word property to describe an athlete belonging to a sports franchise has been around forever. Being that it has been used for both white and non-white individuals, it cannot be described as a racist. If you, average joe, take offense at being called property, it's not racist, just offensive to you.

If you dig hard enough, you can "find" -ism in just about any comment made describing an individual, especially if the comment is not positive. Racism, sexism, ageism... Where does the line stop?

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 08:39 AM
speaking of inflammatory, how are you this morning, dpj?

fighting the good fight, not letting the white man keep me down.

Nice!:D

Seth Stohs
08-14-2012, 08:45 AM
Speaking of inflammatory, how are you this morning, DPJ?

Ha!

Listen, I heard Bremer say that last night too, and my first thought was that it is a very unfortunate way of saying that he was under team control. It's a saying that most announcers and sports writers have used. I would never feel comfortable saying it myself. But there was no racially motivated tone to it.

It's certainly not meant as a racist comment. The same can be said for Mastroianni, Deduno, Delmon or anyone who signs a baseball contract.

Because of baseball's anti-trust exemption, frankly, players can be traded elsewhere without their permission. that's a sad part of the game. It makes Bremer's statement accurate.But like I said, I think there are other phrases that could be used to state the same thing.

Please note - I think this is a good, fair discussion. I do think it is a fair topic for discussion. The reason that Thrylos's thread was taken down last night was because of the name-calling, not because of the topic. There is a better way to tell Thrylos that you/we disagree with him. There are several comments above that are offensive, and that's ridiculous!

JB_Iowa
08-14-2012, 09:26 AM
I don't know how most of you caught the statement. Bremer drones on and on so much my ears automatically tune him out most of the time.

Technically, I think, it is the player's contract that is property of the club, not the player. But I wouldn't call Bremer out on this specific example. I suspect that he might have applied the same terminology to Valencia or Neshek or Breslow or any number of other former Twins players -- and I think many of us may have used the same terminology on occasion. Especially if we are speaking or in live chat where you don't review and edit your comments the way you can here.

There is a lot of racism in this world. I know I'm guilty at times (although I hope I catch it in my mind before I speak or act on the thought). Bremer's statement just isn't a very good example.

(Oh, and the differentiation with Thome may have been as much due to his age and professional accomplishments as much as race. Okay, that's probably age-ism but most of us are guilty of that, too)

Kirby_Waved_At_Me
08-14-2012, 09:36 AM
The "Property Of ____" term has been around for quite awhile to describe all players as others have mentioned. Before Free Agency in the 1970s, it was probably a little more accurate (but of course, it was still no comparison to actual human trafficking, which continues today in many parts of the world) . It doesn't help matters that one player (Thome) was described as "a member of" and another (Delmon) as "Property of" in the same telecast. It is a terminology that should be dropped. "Under team control" is more likely the best way to put it.

I'd like to give Dick Bremer the benefit of the doubt and assume that he just used an outdated and unfortunate term.

What do people think of the t-shirts that are seen all over the place that say "Property Of ____ Athletic Department" ? Is that a different thing? Do people wear them ironically?

Nick Nelson
08-14-2012, 09:36 AM
I'm not sure why this conversation needed to continue.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 09:44 AM
I'm not sure why this conversation needed to continue.

bigot

Thrylos
08-14-2012, 09:49 AM
The thing that ticked me off last night was that he describe a black guy as "property of" and a white guy as "member of" in the same sentence.

Is he a "racist"? I don't want to think so, but I still believe that these terms are unfortunate and his word choice to describe the 2 former Twins also unfortunate. Yes I might be sensitive on the subject. As far as whether someone is a "property" of a team (metaphorically), I think that actually a player has more power than the team as far as a working relationship goes. Yes his contract can be sold to another team but he will be making the same money. The team cannot fire him without paying him the rest of the what he is owed, but he can quit anytime (retire...)

Just an unfortunate wording.

About the property of... shirts (and scrubs in hospitals btw.) It is the shirt that it property of, not the wearer :) In the Old days practice shirts were property of athletic departments and they had to stay there after games etc. Nobody could have then (thus a forbidden fruit that started that craze in the 70s and 80s...) and then colleges sold them at their bookstores.

I might have over reacted but it was the use of different word for teammates of different race that did it. I don't even think that the guy meant it... but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...

As far as the tone of the commentary on the other thread, if someone decides to not argue on the topic but on the poster, I tune them out :)

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 09:53 AM
. but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...


Actually it isn't even close to what Delmon did in NYC.
Delmon committed a hate crime.

I'm not sure if this is a troll, or if you are really so dense that you actually believe this. Either way its just pathetic.

Brock Beauchamp
08-14-2012, 09:58 AM
I don't even think that the guy meant it... but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...

Delmon screamed "****ing Jews! ****ing Jews!" at a crowd of people.

Do you really think those two things are the same?

Nick Nelson
08-14-2012, 10:01 AM
I don't even think that the guy meant it... but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...

What he said was harmless, free of ill intentions and noticed by almost nobody. Delmon Young directly accosted a man on a public street and spewed racial epithets at him. That you could even compare the two proves that your attempts to take a position as being sensitive to racial issues is a complete joke. I think you should just drop this one. Nothing good is going to come from your futile attempts to demonstrate that a passing, banal remark in a TV broadcast is somehow evidence of Dick Bremer's deep-seeded racism.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 10:01 AM
I don't even think that the guy meant it... but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...

Delmon screamed "****ing Jews! ****ing Jews!" at a crowd of people.

Do you really think those two things are the same?

He actually screamed it at a jewish guy, then proceeded to assault a dude.

Brock Beauchamp
08-14-2012, 10:06 AM
He actually screamed it at a jewish guy, then proceeded to assault a dude.

I know he accosted a Jewish guy but I thought he yelled "****ing Jews!" at a crowd.

Either way, it doesn't matter. One involved purposeful intent to hurt someone else while the other was an off-hand remark that is made about players of every nationality and color. The two aren't even remotely comparable (unless Delmon was drunk and wanted to point out that there were two Hasidic Jews humping in the middle of the street, which by all accounts, there were not).

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 10:08 AM
(unless Delmon was drunk and wanted to point out that there were two Hasidic Jews humping in the middle of the street, which by all accounts, there were not).

Now I can't get the imagine of my landlords humping in the middle of my street out of my head. Thanks.

Brock Beauchamp
08-14-2012, 10:10 AM
(unless Delmon was drunk and wanted to point out that there were two Hasidic Jews humping in the middle of the street, which by all accounts, there were not).

Now I can't get the imagine of my landlords humping in the middle of my street out of my head. Thanks.

With you being an NYC resident, I thought that might brighten up your Tuesday morning.

DPJ
08-14-2012, 10:11 AM
So if Dick can call a black man property, can I call you guys honkeys?

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 10:15 AM
So if Dick can call a black man property, can I call you guys honkeys?

I believe you already do?

DPJ
08-14-2012, 10:17 AM
So if Dick can call a black man property, can I call you guys honkeys?

I believe you already do?

Exactly, there's no harmful intent behind it, it's just a dumb comment like what Dick said. Like a bunch of dumb white kids who listen to rap and call each other "my n****a"

If youre going to excuse Dick for a harmless comment then I thinks it's ok.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 10:19 AM
So if Dick can call a black man property, can I call you guys honkeys?

I believe you already do?

Exactly, there's no harmful intent behind it, it's just a dumb comment like what Dick said. Like a bunch of dumb white kids who listen to rap and call each other "my n****a"

If youre going to excuse Dick for a harmless comment then I thinks it's ok.

We should make you the moderator for TD race relations threads :)

LimestoneBaggy
08-14-2012, 10:27 AM
So is saying "under team control" any different (see also every sportswriter/blogger)? Dick is really being taken out of context, and I agree with the vast majority here (not that majority). As for being called a honkey...well that's just hilarious, but I prefer....Role Models:

Ronnie Shields (http://twinsdaily.com/name/nm1442928/): Suck it, "Reindeer Games"!
Danny (http://twinsdaily.com/name/nm0748620/): I'm not Ben Affleck.
Ronnie Shields (http://twinsdaily.com/name/nm1442928/): You white, then you Ben Affleck.
Wheeler (http://twinsdaily.com/name/nm0005405/): You *are* white.
Danny (http://twinsdaily.com/name/nm0748620/): That's true, I am white.

LimestoneBaggy
08-14-2012, 10:32 AM
http://c-product.images.dreamsretail.com/63-14/63-14248-Y.jpgProbably should get MLB on the phone too.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 10:34 AM
Reindeer games was awesome, Charlize Theron topless FTMFW!

TwinsFanLV
08-14-2012, 10:38 AM
The thing that ticked me off last night was that he describe a black guy as "property of" and a white guy as "member of" in the same sentence.

Is he a "racist"? I don't want to think so, but I still believe that these terms are unfortunate and his word choice to describe the 2 former Twins also unfortunate. Yes I might be sensitive on the subject. As far as whether someone is a "property" of a team (metaphorically), I think that actually a player has more power than the team as far as a working relationship goes. Yes his contract can be sold to another team but he will be making the same money. The team cannot fire him without paying him the rest of the what he is owed, but he can quit anytime (retire...)

Just an unfortunate wording.

About the property of... shirts (and scrubs in hospitals btw.) It is the shirt that it property of, not the wearer :) In the Old days practice shirts were property of athletic departments and they had to stay there after games etc. Nobody could have then (thus a forbidden fruit that started that craze in the 70s and 80s...) and then colleges sold them at their bookstores.

I might have over reacted but it was the use of different word for teammates of different race that did it. I don't even think that the guy meant it... but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...

As far as the tone of the commentary on the other thread, if someone decides to not argue on the topic but on the poster, I tune them out :)

If your assessment of Dick Bremer was as enlightened as your comments of the geography and status of AAA baseball in Las Vegas, nobody is suffering from the loss of your deleted comments. It would be okay for you to think through your ideas and make an effort to be vaguely accurate.

DPJ
08-14-2012, 10:40 AM
We should make you the moderator for TD race relations threads :)

It would get some more traffic around here, plus there would be an uptick in that key 20-30 year old black males that I know Twins Daily so deperatly yearns for.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 10:46 AM
We should make you the moderator for TD race relations threads :)

It would get some more traffic around here, plus there would be an uptick in that key 20-30 year old black males that I know Twins Daily so deperatly yearns for.

Good point, plus FUBU (is that still around?) would finally start running ads on the site.

diehardtwinsfan
08-14-2012, 11:04 AM
how in the world has this made it to almost 3 pages?

jimbo92107
08-14-2012, 11:08 AM
I believe that players are Property of their clubs until they have achieved enough service time to become free agents. Up until that time, the club owns their rights and it is their choice whether or not the players are a part of the team.

My problem with Thrylos's interpretation of Dick Bremer's off-hand comment was that Thrylos seemed to think it was insulting on a racial level. Actually, the idea of calling a contractee "property" is generally insulting to everybody that signs a contract. If you contract the neighbor's kid to mow your lawn over the summer, is the kid your "property?" Don't tell his parents that.

Same with professional sports. A contract with the Minnesota Twins does not make Delmon Young the team's "property." It's a contract to play baseball for that specific team, for money. If Delmon decides to quit baseball, he is free to do that, but of course that voids his contract and he won't get any more money from the Twins. Freedom to quit is what distinguishes literal "property" from contractee. Did Thrylos really think Dick Bremer was referring to Delmon Young as a former slave of the Minnesota Twins? That's pretty silly.

Riverbrian
08-14-2012, 11:42 AM
If you combed thru all of the tapes of Bremer's Career... I would bet large sums of money that he has used the word "property" before and I will bet that it was used for White Folks in the past. When you broadcast as many games as he has for as long as he has. You don't just start using fresh adjectives. You have the same crutches and words to describe situations.

Again, try to fill a baseball broadcast with words for 3 hours and then do it again tomorrow, all the way to next month, next year and next decade. If anyone feels that property is worthy of this... It's a clear overreacation. Try it... After you try talking through a baseball game one time... Try to imagine doing it daily.

We can't seriously be hung up one word that can be explained multiple ways. This reacation is clearly a case of a reacation by the beholder and not the commenter.

drivlikejehu
08-14-2012, 11:44 AM
Well, actually, the remains of the reserve system do make a player's labor the property of the team for six years (though 3 or 4 of the years are subject to arbitration). Of course, no one technically has to play Major League Baseball, but realistically it will be the best option for almost any player (maybe in a handful of AAAA cases Japan would be better). So, to the extent most players are concerned, MLB has an effective monopoly on pro baseball and dramatically limits the labor freedom of the players.

For those subject to the draft, they really can't choose what team to play for. Then, the hurdle to reach free agency (other than stinking and getting cut) is extremely high- 6 years. The average career is what, less than 2 years? And once a player is on a 40-man roster, even getting cut often doesn't lead to free agency, because the team first waives the player, who can then be picked up by another club (again the player has zero say over any of this).

So, putting aside the fact it's literally insane to say Bremer was being racist, and in fact only reveals something about the person making the insane accusation, the term "property" is actually pretty appropriate for the team-player relationship in most cases.

old nurse
08-14-2012, 11:48 AM
If one wants to start arguments, thryloss would be better off dissecting when Andre Martinez will join the starting rotation of the Twins. The only good that comes from this thread is Rocketpig's imagery of what may have been happening on a NYC street.
BTW, they could have been eating Frankenberry and that is what set Delmon off.

ShaeTwins
08-14-2012, 11:50 AM
I didn't even notice it; does this make me a racist? What a joke. People need to stop getting so worked up over every little thing.

Kirby_Waved_At_Me
08-14-2012, 11:53 AM
That's an interesting tid-bit about the "Property of ____" t-shirts. I didn't know that Athletic Departments had loaner shirts.

birdwatcher
08-14-2012, 12:05 PM
Geez, I wish you people would stop picking on thrylos just because of the absurd and ignorant things he says.

Ultima Ratio
08-14-2012, 12:12 PM
I'm gonna say he's a racist, not KKK outwardly but a closet racist like 90% of America.


If any post deserves being taken down and poster being banned (which I don't support BTW), this seems to reach that threshold.

Got any support for these claims on passive racisim? Do you study Critical Race Theory or are you just throwing stuff out there?

twinsnorth49
08-14-2012, 12:16 PM
Why do all you guys keep validating this guys comments?

twinsnorth49
08-14-2012, 12:19 PM
I'm gonna say he's a racist, not KKK outwardly but a closet racist like 90% of America.


This guy too.

snepp
08-14-2012, 12:19 PM
This thread is sad, the previous thread was sadder.


Can we talk about how Kevin Slowey is just like Roy Halladay instead?

righty8383
08-14-2012, 12:20 PM
I'm gonna say he's a racist, not KKK outwardly but a closet racist like 90% of America.


If any post deserves being taken down and poster being banned (which I don't support BTW), this seems to reach that threshold.

Got any support for these claims on passive racisim? Do you study Critical Race Theory or are you just throwing stuff out there?

I don't know but I bet he's in the other 10%

snepp
08-14-2012, 12:22 PM
I don't know but I bet he's in the other 10%

The other 10% being non-closeted racists? :)

Ultima Ratio
08-14-2012, 12:26 PM
I don't know but I bet he's in the other 10%

The other 10% being non-closeted racists? :)
This made me chuckle, thank you snepp.

ShaeTwins
08-14-2012, 12:38 PM
I'm gonna say he's a racist, not KKK outwardly but a closet racist like 90% of America.


If any post deserves being taken down and poster being banned (which I don't support BTW), this seems to reach that threshold.

Being the naive ignorant guy that I am, and not knowing DPJ, I assumed it was good-natured sarcasm.

Nick Nelson
08-14-2012, 01:05 PM
If any post deserves being taken down and poster being banned (which I don't support BTW), this seems to reach that threshold.
FYI, DPJ has been temporarily banned for repeatedly making racially insensitive comments after being asked not to do so. I really hate moderating and wish people wouldn't make me do it, but there's no place for words like "honkeys" and the N word (even if it's bleeped) on a baseball message board.

Jeremy Nygaard
08-14-2012, 01:25 PM
Wait, what? I thought "closet" referred to teh gays. I can't keep up with you kids anymore.

R Kelly took it back for the black man.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFosUj6A22c

You think it would be hard to talk for three hours of the game? Try watching/listening to the whole "Trapped in the Closet" movie. It was on TV one night (I'm not sure how many chapters it actually was...) and it was like a train wreck. I enjoy the guy's music, but holy Hannah, "Trapped in the Closet" is ridiculous.

(A quick google search told me he's written 32 chapters... unbelievable.)

Fire Dan Gladden
08-14-2012, 01:30 PM
I might have over reacted but it was the use of different word for teammates of different race that did it. I don't even think that the guy meant it... but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...



Thrylos,

I rarely agree with your opinions, and I usually find your comments intentionally inflammatory. While I did not agree with your take on Bremer's usage of the word property during the telecast, I think that basis of your comment was worth a discussion. Is the usage of the word "property" when discussing people offensive? I think that topic is open for debate.

That being said, I find it incredibly hypocritical of you to take his comments as racially offensive, and then use the word "Kosher" in the manner in which you did. Were I Jewish, I could easily find this usage offensive. Regardless of your motive for using it (sarcasms, jest, or using it because it is commonly used in this manner), the fact that you have been essentially screaming racism and then do the same thing yourself takes any credibility you have and throws it out the window.

I am surprised that it went this long before being commented on. Probably because it is used in that manner so often people don't really feel it is offensive. Maybe not entirely appropriate, but not offensive or racially motivated. Kind of like what Dick did, eh?

twinsnorth49
08-14-2012, 01:33 PM
Wow,no wonder race relations in the US are so screwed up.

Ultima Ratio
08-14-2012, 01:42 PM
Wow,no wonder race relations in the US are so screwed up.
In everyday life it really isn't. Most racist charges are purely fictitious inventions, just like the charge against Bremer.

diehardtwinsfan
08-14-2012, 02:14 PM
Wow,no wonder race relations in the US are so screwed up.


yeah, pretty much this.... as long as crap like this goes on, race relations will never get better. Thrylos's post is foolish at best and downright inflamatory at worst, as I highly doubt that Bremmer was being "racist" in his use of words, yet he's indirectly being accused of being precisely that. It is one's intent that determines whether or not they are racist, not a choice of words that might or might not offend someone. There are a number of people on this site who will get in a tizzy when someone mischaracterizes their statements/opinions on any matter. Add something like racisim, which adds much additional emotion and often times unnecessary accusations, and you have a powder keg.


What's worse is that often times (though from what I can tell not in this case) these accusations are levied in place of rational thought and discussion when one side finds themselves on the losing side of an argument. Fortunately, that hasn't happened here, but in politicis, it's often a nice fall back for those who do not articulate themselves well.

jokin
08-14-2012, 02:27 PM
I don't even think that the guy meant it... but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...

What he said was harmless, free of ill intentions and noticed by almost nobody. Delmon Young directly accosted a man on a public street and spewed racial epithets at him. That you could even compare the two proves that your attempts to take a position as being sensitive to racial issues is a complete joke. I think you should just drop this one. Nothing good is going to come from your futile attempts to demonstrate that a passing, banal remark in a TV broadcast is somehow evidence of Dick Bremer's deep-seeded racism.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/images/pixel.gif
Is it deep-seeded or deep-seated? Deep-seated, according to Webster's Dictionary, means "deeply entrenched: ingrained." Deep-seeded has no dictionary entry.




From the Language Log website, an article entitled, Deep-Seeded Ignorance, at the University of Pennsylvania (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001815.html): (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/%7Emyl/languagelog/archives/001815.html%29:)

"The established phrase is "deep-seated (http://www.bartleby.com/61/67/D0086700.html)", which is listed in any good dictionary and has 590,000 Google hits, while "deep-seeded" is not listed in any dictionary (at least as far as I've checked), and has only 24,800 Google hits, so that the public vote is 96% for seated, 4% for seeded.
The fact that roughly 4% of the population has the wrong idea about this phrase is a perfect example of the forces that lead to the formation of eggcorns (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/%7Emyl/languagelog/archives/000734.html)." The substitution sounds the same, and it means something plausible. Both similar sound and sensible meaning are essential -- no one is likely to make the mistake of writing "seated rolls" in place of "seeded rolls", or "deep-chaired ignorance" in place of "deep-seated ignorance". " Archie Bunker used to invent a new eggcorn just about every week on All in the Family.

The point from all of this is that language changes as the culture changes and the concept of humans as property has become colloquial and even offensive to many - on the way to obsolescence- on the way to ultimate demise and extinction- and more culturally-, and actually-descriptive terms evolved, just as at some point, two-word descriptive phrases such as deep-seated could likely fade into something else that becomes more commonly accepted, perhaps even something like deep-seeded.

The use of words contained inside these terms: NAACP, United Negro College Fund, the song, "Ten Little Indians" and La Raza (Fascist Franco coined it for propaganda purposes, the Latino Radical Left uses it today) are all deemed offensive, depending on who uses the word and in which setting, even though they were all once widespread in common usage. Compared to these now-electrically-charged words, Bremer's "offense" is a trifle of a trifle, there is no doubt that Dick Bremer is just the Halsey Hall of his generation, innocent of the charges being thrown around and it's up to the offendee to accept him as a product of his culture and language boundaries.

TheLeviathan
08-14-2012, 05:23 PM
Sigh....

glunn
08-14-2012, 05:30 PM
Sigh....

For the love of God, someone please move this thread out of the Twins baseball section.

The Greatest Poster Alive
08-14-2012, 05:35 PM
By choosing to play professional sports you willingly enter a system where you are a product to be bought and sold. Calling an athlete the property of a team is no stretch, and comparing this concept of ownership to the ownership of slaves is asinine. This is a non issue and we're on the 2nd 50 post thread on the subject...

TheLeviathan
08-14-2012, 05:37 PM
For the love of God, someone please move this thread out of the Twins baseball section.

I shared this with RP - but it's issues like this where sometimes it's just better to call the poster an "idiot", let everyone move on, and get past it. Instead, here we are on page 4.....

TwinVike61
08-14-2012, 05:54 PM
For the love of God, someone please move this thread out of the Twins baseball section.

I shared this with RP - but it's issues like this where sometimes it's just better to call the poster an "idiot", let everyone move on, and get past it. Instead, here we are on page 4.....

It's like the traffic slowed by the car wreck...we all curse those in front of us for slowing down to gawk but we can't help ourselves when we get the chance...and now I've perpetuated this further.

OK, let's all move along...nothing to see here folks.

twinsnorth49
08-14-2012, 05:59 PM
For the love of God, someone please move this thread out of the Twins baseball section.

I shared this with RP - but it's issues like this where sometimes it's just better to call the poster an "idiot", let everyone move on, and get past it. Instead, here we are on page 4.....

Mainly because you're still validating it with the desired response.

TheLeviathan
08-14-2012, 06:04 PM
For the love of God, someone please move this thread out of the Twins baseball section.

I shared this with RP - but it's issues like this where sometimes it's just better to call the poster an "idiot", let everyone move on, and get past it. Instead, here we are on page 4.....

Mainly because you're still validating it with the desired response.

I'm not addressing the poster - I'm addressing the site managers who shouldn't have let it get this far so hopefully this is the last time something this dumb sits on the forum.

jimbo92107
08-14-2012, 06:10 PM
Speaking of inflammatory, how are you this morning, DPJ?

Fighting the good fight, not letting the white man keep me down.

Yeah, me too.

Oh wait...

Damn you, mirror!

[Sob]...I just wanted to be pretty...

twinsnorth49
08-14-2012, 06:22 PM
For the love of God, someone please move this thread out of the Twins baseball section.

I shared this with RP - but it's issues like this where sometimes it's just better to call the poster an "idiot", let everyone move on, and get past it. Instead, here we are on page 4.....

Mainly because you're still validating it with the desired response.

I'm not addressing the poster - I'm addressing the site managers who shouldn't have let it get this far so hopefully this is the last time something this dumb sits on the forum.

I know, I know, but you did manage to slip in he's an idiot, which I think likely amuses him in so much that he gets off on eliciting that type of emotion. Someone should have just taken his original post and preceded it with this :shoot::shoot::shoot:.

one_eyed_jack
08-14-2012, 06:34 PM
This has to be the most absurd thread of the season. I'm struggling to think of one that even comes close. The one about Gardy's decision to take a couple of games off to attend his daughter's college graduation was pretty bad, but it pales in comparison to this.

The Greatest Poster Alive
08-14-2012, 07:42 PM
This has to be the most absurd thread of the season. I'm struggling to think of one that even comes close. The one about Gardy's decision to take a couple of games off to attend his daughter's college graduation was pretty bad, but it pales in comparison to this.

My #1 was the thread about how the Twins don't keep minorities around.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
08-14-2012, 07:56 PM
Unlikely anyone really reads this post after seeing the feelings about it (I've avoided it myself till now), but instead of white people deciding what's racist against non-whites, how about we(I am white) let minorities decide what they are offended by. If this was truly an issue, Delmon Young or any other African Americans would be speaking out against it. Stop acting like you have a noble cause to defend someone and start treating them as you would individuals of the same ethnicity. People who are fully capable of defending themselves. If Bremer had said Thome was property, or however he had contexted it, no one would have said a thing. The problem is people are looking for some excuse to shout "Racist!" and think themselves higher of that person who slipped in an accidental "no-no". Why can't we treat Young the same as any other former white Twin? His color doesn't make him any more different than the personality he choses does. The white people who have a problem with this are really the ones that are truly prejudiced (which is the more appropriate term than racist for 95% of negative issues surrounding culture struggles).

darin617
08-14-2012, 08:13 PM
By choosing to play professional sports you willingly enter a system where you are a product to be bought and sold. Calling an athlete the property of a team is no stretch, and comparing this concept of ownership to the ownership of slaves is asinine. This is a non issue and we're on the 2nd 50 post thread on the subject...

I would loved to be "enslaved" and PAID for playing a game that everyone loves. Yes, players are treated as property by the owners and they can do whatever they want to you except not paying you for not doing anything wrong.

Nick Nelson
08-14-2012, 09:19 PM
I'm not addressing the poster - I'm addressing the site managers who shouldn't have let it get this far so hopefully this is the last time something this dumb sits on the forum.

The original thread popped up on a Saturday night, when we all happened to be busy. Detestable, I know. When John got home he posted a response and locked the thread. The next morning, someone starts a NEW thread continuing the topic, and now there's four pages of discussion on it.

It's not our job to dictate what people talk about, only to moderate and keep things relatively clean. Obviously for whatever reason this is something people continually seem to want to discuss. I'm not sure why you're complaining about the site managers when you are the one that willfully made the decision to read through this thread despite knowing full well what you were getting into when you clicked on it.

TheLeviathan
08-14-2012, 09:32 PM
The original thread popped up on a Saturday night, when we all happened to be busy. Detestable, I know. When John got home he posted a response and locked the thread. The next morning, someone starts a NEW thread continuing the topic, and now there's four pages of discussion on it.

It's not our job to dictate what people talk about, only to moderate and keep things relatively clean. Obviously for whatever reason this is something people continually seem to want to discuss. I'm not sure why you're complaining about the site managers when you are the one that willfully made the decision to read through this thread despite knowing full well what you were getting into when you clicked on it.

I find it a bit odd that a forum trying so hard to clean up the content of exchanges also, at the same time, has no floor for what constitutes asinine nonsense.

I'm sure many randomn fans dropping by think very highly of the content here when it's declared that "Bremer: Racist?" is worthy of discussion. But you do your own thing your lordship, far be it from me to point out something you might want to consider.

Proceed.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 09:37 PM
I'm not addressing the poster - I'm addressing the site managers who shouldn't have let it get this far so hopefully this is the last time something this dumb sits on the forum.

The original thread popped up on a Saturday night, when we all happened to be busy. Detestable, I know. When John got home he posted a response and locked the thread. The next morning, someone starts a NEW thread continuing the topic, and now there's four pages of discussion on it.

It's not our job to dictate what people talk about, only to moderate and keep things relatively clean. Obviously for whatever reason this is something people continually seem to want to discuss. I'm not sure why you're complaining about the site managers when you are the one that willfully made the decision to read through this thread despite knowing full well what you were getting into when you clicked on it.
It actually popped up last night (Monday)

TheLeviathan
08-14-2012, 09:40 PM
It actually popped up last night (Monday)

And then was renamed - but you're correcting him. He'll take that personally rather than listen to well-meaning advice. Best not to try.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-14-2012, 09:44 PM
It actually popped up last night (Monday)

And then was renamed - but you're correcting him. He'll take that personally rather than listen to well-meaning advice. Best not to try.

I find it comical that they take the whole "this is a discussion worth having" while banning anyone who calls the OP an idiot, which he most certainly is. If only a certain "narf" figure could bring back some respectability to such a topic. We should put up the bat signal at ESPN/Rubechat.

TheLeviathan
08-14-2012, 09:47 PM
I find it comical that they take the whole "this is a discussion worth having" while banning anyone who calls the OP an idiot, which he most certainly is. If only a certain "narf" figure could bring back some respectability to such a topic. We should put up the bat signal at ESPN/Rubechat.

We're getting in the way of an intellectual discussion on whether Dick Bremer is a racist Dave. Let's let that high quality content resume - back to the subforums!

twinsnorth49
08-14-2012, 09:48 PM
Have we all overreacted enough yet? I think we're done now, don't you think?

Brock Beauchamp
08-14-2012, 10:15 PM
Okay, I'm calling this. It's gone to the point of ridiculous and honestly, if you have a problem with the way any of us moderate this forum, show enough backbone to PM us about it instead of resorting to theatrics. I expect better of so many of the posters in this thread.

Topic closed, now shut the hell up.

Nick Nelson
08-14-2012, 10:32 PM
To be clear, I've never said anything remotely resembling "this is a conversation worth having." On the contrary, my first comment on this thread, verbatim: "I'm not sure why this conversation needed to continue." My feelings about the topic are not at issue here, what is at issue is your hypocritical complaining about a pointless, meandering thread that you click into again and again and again to complain about, thus adding to the irrelevant BS. Yes, I'm going to take it personally when you blatantly mischaracterize my position as being supportive of this topic when I've clearly demonstrated the opposite.

I know you guys took pride in the "elitist" atmosphere at BYTO where anyone deemed less intelligent or "asinine" was shunned and ridiculed (a great way to encourage new users, BTW), but that's not how the moderators here operate. This thread – a continuation of a discontinued thread – happens to be one of the most viewed on the first page of the forum, so whether it's the train wreck effect, morbid curiosity or who-knows-what, people keep clicking in and commenting. I don't consider it my duty to shut down every topic I find silly; this is a community and therefore it is the duty of the community to ignore such threads and let them drift off into oblivion, rather than having little back-and-forth snarky whine sessions. I can't emphasize enough how easy it is to simply not click on or respond to a topic you find worthless.

With that said, you guys have made it painfully clear that there's nothing else to be gained from this thread it's been locked. Next time someone wants to start a conversation about a serious issue like race, please make sure there's a worthwhile starting point.