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View Full Version : Is it time to just release him?



minn55441
08-08-2012, 01:39 PM
You know who I'm talking about. I don't even have to mention his name. Once Bert and Dick turn on you, there really is no hope left. I say he shouldn't dress in a twins uniform again. Don't even give him the option of going back to Rochester. Just cut ties and be done with it.

DPJ
08-08-2012, 01:47 PM
Well you know if DickBert is ripping Nishi then it's supported by the team...so something tells me it's only a matter of time.

gil4
08-08-2012, 02:35 PM
I had it narrowed down to Blackburn, Pavano, and Capps, so I guess I didn't know who you were talking about.

Since it's apparently Nishioki, I would rather send him down, let him rot on the bench, and do everything we can to make him want to go back to Japan on his own.

FatBaxter
08-08-2012, 02:39 PM
It almost makes me wonder if he is tanking on purpose so he does get released and can go back to Japan with the 4 million left on his contract. If he were to quit on his own, it would admit failure and he would lose the money left on his contract.

Badsmerf
08-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Its been 2 games lol. I think he sucks too, but calling to release him this early is just funny. Let him play a few more games to let him get settled.

gunnarthor
08-08-2012, 02:41 PM
OK, I was working today so I missed whatever happened. What did Nishi do today?

greengoblinrulz
08-08-2012, 02:43 PM
Absolutely the least they should do is DFA him to clear up a spot on 40man roster.
If he wants to play in AAA, so be it as we are short of minor league infielders in upper levels

crarko
08-08-2012, 03:14 PM
Yes. This would be a case of exponentiation by subtraction.

lecroy24fan
08-08-2012, 03:26 PM
Looked up in the sky and never saw a pop up hit to him.

Mauerzy4Prez
08-08-2012, 03:36 PM
OK, I was working today so I missed whatever happened. What did Nishi do today?

It is more what he "didn't" do today.... I was also working but caught the main error on lunch. High fly ball hit to Nishi in short right field, he looked up as if he was tracking the ball and at the last minute just left it fall behind him. According to Gladden, instead of running to pick up the ball, Nishi just turned his back to it in disgust and walked back towards the infield.

Players are going to lose a ball from time to time, that is totally acceptable. What isn't is walking away from the ball and making Revere sprint in from right field and make the throw.

Mauerzy4Prez
08-08-2012, 03:38 PM
Its been 2 games lol. I think he sucks too, but calling to release him this early is just funny. Let him play a few more games to let him get settled.

It has been three games... he is 0-fer, barely making contact, and has 3 (what should be 4) errors in a matter of 3 days. "Buh-Bye"

Paul
08-08-2012, 03:38 PM
Is it time to just release him?That time has passed. Now is the time we should organize an intervention for TR's sake

Steve Penz
08-08-2012, 03:44 PM
Well you know if DickBert is ripping Nishi then it's supported by the team...so something tells me it's only a matter of time.


On Monday night's broadcast Bert said that he had heard from the Rochester staff that, "this kid was ready to come back up."

PopRiveter
08-08-2012, 03:45 PM
The missed pop wasn't even the error. He threw a ball with his glove rather than his hand. It didn't go near his intended target. He made a second costly, bad throw that wasn't called an error. He's 0 for 12 now and it's looked even more embarrassing than the numbers.

jokin
08-08-2012, 03:48 PM
Looked up in the sky and never saw a pop up hit to him.

And then walked away from it.

darin617
08-08-2012, 03:49 PM
You know who I'm talking about. I don't even have to mention his name. Once Bert and Dick turn on you, there really is no hope left. I say he shouldn't dress in a twins uniform again. Don't even give him the option of going back to Rochester. Just cut ties and be done with it.

Are we talking about Nick Blackburn, or Jeff Gray, or Nishi?

darin617
08-08-2012, 03:54 PM
Is there any way they can just turn him into the highest paid bathroom attendant? They could also rent him out as mop up guy in XXX peep show rooms... Hey, now that would be a great way if only you could do it since he has a contract, too bad its only to "play" baseball.

jokin
08-08-2012, 03:55 PM
OK, I was working today so I missed whatever happened. What did Nishi do today?

He added 4 more NNTTTs (Nishi's Not The Top Ten) to the ESPN video vault, outdoing even his juggling/face plant error on a routine ground ball on Monday.

And people wonder why certain folks ask for changes in the FO. I would not be shocked if the Commissioner hasn't already called Pohlad and said something to the effect of:

"Your FO management is making a travesty of the game by playing Nishioka, in the best interests of baseball, he is hereby prohibited from playing again. (I'm on firm legal ground, Eddie Gaedel is my precedent)!"

strumdatjag
08-08-2012, 03:58 PM
The best I can say is that he looks better at the plate, despite the lack of hits. He seems to be driving the ball better. He is doing a little more than slapping it. The fielding? That's another story. Maybe he has a mental block once he gets to "the show"; sort of like Dave Engel not being able to throw back to the pircher.

James
08-08-2012, 03:58 PM
I saw that one when I was at work. He lost the ball, turned his back and just walked away. He then saw it land and continued walking away like the play didn't count or something like that. Revere had to pick up the ball and throw it in.

I hope his translator conveyed the tone properly when Gardy was screaming at him in the club house.

minn55441
08-08-2012, 04:02 PM
It almost makes me wonder if he is tanking on purpose so he does get released and can go back to Japan with the 4 million left on his contract. If he were to quit on his own, it would admit failure and he would lose the money left on his contract.

The only thing that would have made his day worse, is if he had gone up into the clubhouse in between innings, grabbed a beer and then tripped and spilled it all over Gardy's uniform as he was running back onto the field.

jokin
08-08-2012, 04:05 PM
I saw that one when I was at work. He lost the ball, turned his back and just walked away. He then saw it land and continued walking away like the play didn't count or something like that. Revere had to pick up the ball and throw it in.

I hope his translator conveyed the tone properly when Gardy was screaming at him in the club house.

Only if Ryo mimicked the effects of early onset pulmonary embolism.

Duensing was screaming into his glove, Primal Scream-like at the end of that inning. Gardy in the postgame presser was red-faced and having trouble breathing. This cannot end well.

luckylager
08-08-2012, 04:06 PM
I feel sorry for Nishi, but yeah it's time to cut bait. He's had enough time to figure things out, it appears he is just not built for the American game.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-08-2012, 04:12 PM
The only thing that would have made his day worse, is if he had gone up into the clubhouse in between innings, grabbed a beer and then tripped and spilled it all over Gardy's uniform as he was running back onto the field.

I would have given him credit for that.

diehardtwinsfan
08-08-2012, 04:15 PM
Only if Ryo mimicked the effects of early onset pulmonary embolism.

Duensing was screaming into his glove, Primal Scream-like at the end of that inning. Gardy in the postgame presser was red-faced and having trouble breathing. This cannot end well.

So are the Twins playing chicken with their medical insurance rates to get Gardy to quit without firing him?

Thrylos
08-08-2012, 04:20 PM
Let me put it this way:

- Believe it or not, Nishioka is not the reason the Twins lost 99 last season and are in pace of losing 90+ this season
- This team has bigger fish to fry that dealing with whether or not Nishioka can be the 25th man on the 2013 roster
- And this is a team that carried the likes of Matt Tolbert and Brian Butcher on division winning rosters

Bigger fish to fry. Really. And, yes, Nishioka is who he is. He cannot help it. If you want to complain about someone complain about the manager who is playing him or the general manager who got him to the majors.

And here is the kicker: Nishioka's play did not cost the Twins a single game. Even if he caught everything thrown his way today they would still have lost...

Bigger.Fish.To.Fry

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-08-2012, 04:21 PM
So are the Twins playing chicken with their medical insurance rates to get Gardy to quit without firing him?

http://i48.tinypic.com/2hex9nk.png

Shane Wahl
08-08-2012, 04:23 PM
It is more what he "didn't" do today.... I was also working but caught the main error on lunch. High fly ball hit to Nishi in short right field, he looked up as if he was tracking the ball and at the last minute just left it fall behind him. According to Gladden, instead of running to pick up the ball, Nishi just turned his back to it in disgust and walked back towards the infield.

Players are going to lose a ball from time to time, that is totally acceptable. What isn't is walking away from the ball and making Revere sprint in from right field and make the throw.

I just watched it and I don't like Nishioka at all, but if Gladden said that then he is blatantly lying to make Nishioka look worse. Nishioka clearly thought it landed behind him and turned his back to look for the damn ball. It actually landed on the infield side and he turned around as soon as he heard it fall. It's pretty disgusting when announcers have to start in on players like that

diehardtwinsfan
08-08-2012, 04:26 PM
http://i48.tinypic.com/2hex9nk.png

and at the time, most of us considered that a real possiblity... His projections by the good folks over at BP was a .270ish hitter, which was a huge improvement over the likes of Tolbert and Punto... or so we thought :(

Shane Wahl
08-08-2012, 04:26 PM
I saw that one when I was at work. He lost the ball, turned his back and just walked away. He then saw it land and continued walking away like the play didn't count or something like that. Revere had to pick up the ball and throw it in.

I hope his translator conveyed the tone properly when Gardy was screaming at him in the club house.

That's actually not what happened.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-08-2012, 04:27 PM
and at the time, most of us considered that a real possiblity... His projections by the good folks over at BP was a .270ish hitter, which was a huge improvement over the likes of Tolbert and Punto... or so we thought :(
I liked the move as well.

James
08-08-2012, 04:30 PM
That's actually not what happened.I know he lost the ball in the sun. That does happen. I wasn't that mad about that part. It was more his reaction. I'm sure he turned to look for direction from Span or Dozier, but he didn't exactly go after the ball after it landed.

DPJ
08-08-2012, 04:30 PM
I liked the move as well.

I would like to go on the record as saying I hated the move.

jokin
08-08-2012, 04:32 PM
I just watched it and I don't like Nishioka at all, but if Gladden said that then he is blatantly lying to make Nishioka look worse. Nishioka clearly thought it landed behind him and turned his back to look for the damn ball. It actually landed on the infield side and he turned around as soon as he heard it fall. It's pretty disgusting when announcers have to start in on players like that

I'm not a Gladden fan, but how can he make Nishi look worse? To me, it did appear that he was "walking away" with no sense of urgency, whether he knew where the ball was or not. It was funny, on TV they said there was likely a Sun problem- as the camera panned to a shot of a very overcast sky.

jokin
08-08-2012, 04:35 PM
I would like to go on the record as saying I hated the move.

I only believe you if Dave can verify it from the BYTO archives...

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-08-2012, 04:37 PM
I only believe you if Dave can verify it from the BYTO archives...

To be fair DPJ hate(d)/(s) most every move the Twins make.

DPJ
08-08-2012, 04:37 PM
I only believe you if Dave can verify it from the BYTO archives...

Tell Dave to go nuts, hell I'm pretty sure the whole JJ/Nishi debates lead to the most fun I've ever had on BYTO.

DPJ
08-08-2012, 04:38 PM
To be fair DPJ hate(d)/(s) most every move the Twins make.

And maybe I'm onto something since they suck.

Badsmerf
08-08-2012, 04:38 PM
I would like to go on the record as saying I hated the move.

Can this post make the Hall of Posts?

Highabove
08-08-2012, 04:47 PM
"Nishioka 4 Twins 2"

Bert Byleven August 8 2012

Shane Wahl
08-08-2012, 04:51 PM
I'm not a Gladden fan, but how can he make Nishi look worse? To me, it did appear that he was "walking away" with no sense of urgency, whether he knew where the ball was or not. It was funny, on TV they said there was likely a Sun problem- as the camera panned to a shot of a very overcast sky.

Well he turns away and looks and sees Revere running in beside him so then he turns around and then did actually move quickly toward the ball. Of course he should have not made it look he could see it and was calling Span off.

Ok, i just watched the slo-mo replay and it does look worse than in real time . . .

Shane Wahl
08-08-2012, 04:53 PM
"Nishioka 4 Twins 2"

Bert Byleven August 8 2012

He said that!?

I mean he is terrible, but Duensing also doesn't belong as a starter. Good god . . . they had to switch in-game from the windup to the stretch. That's atrocious.

freightmaster
08-08-2012, 04:58 PM
I saw that one when I was at work. He lost the ball, turned his back and just walked away. He then saw it land and continued walking away like the play didn't count or something like that. Revere had to pick up the ball and throw it in.

I hope his translator conveyed the tone properly when Gardy was screaming at him in the club house.

I have never paid much attention to all the criticism, after watching him today, totally lost, but looking cocky, nonetheless,

send him to the lowest affliate that needs a bench warmer, maybe he can develop a knuckleball? What I saw today was unbelievable, he looked scared, no confidence, of course the other thing is he is trying too hard to make an impression, he made an impression but not what you would want.

LaBombo
08-08-2012, 05:01 PM
thrylos98 - I won't say you're missing the point about Nishy, but you're maybe undervaluing it.

Yes, it's true that short of maiming or murdering productive teammates, Nishy in a utility role won't affect the outcome of this throwaway season in any meaningful way.

That's not the point. The point is that Nish isn't being played to avoid the appearance of sunk cost, he's playing because an injury to one infielder has left the Twins with no appreciably better option than an abject failure.

This is a guy who barely looks like he's played any baseball before, let alone the major league kind. Just his presence on the roster is a powerful indictment of the failure of a business that has received an enormous public subsidy. Sure, that doesn't obligate the Twins to spend, let alone win.

But short of Terry Ryan forcing the fans at home games to enter through a single gate and personally telling every one of them to go f#@% themselves, it's hard to see how he could cultivate more ill will than the kind generated by allowing a ballplayer who can't play ball to suit up every night.

PS Thanks for posting the awesome Nishy Error photo...

Thrylos
08-08-2012, 05:02 PM
ok.

Because there is a lot of discussion about where the ball was, where Nishioka was, and all that stuff, I decided that a picture is worth more than a thousand words and put one here (http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-nishioka-error-or-baseball-size.html).

Enjoy

one_eyed_jack
08-08-2012, 05:16 PM
Good gracious how many Nishi-bashing threads do we need? And how much longer to we need to flagellate the defunct equine here?

I tend to agree with thrylos on this one, way too big a deal is being made out of this. He's a failed signing, which is unfortunate, but there are bigger problems and more pressing matters.

stringer bell
08-08-2012, 05:31 PM
Nishi's misplays: I just watched the game on DVR and they weren't quite as bad as I thought. He made a nice diving stop on his official error, but perhaps not knowing the runner was slow (or being a showboat) he tried to flip the ball from his glove. He looked like he had the ball measured on the popup, let it drop and oddly just walked instead of quickley getting the ball. He needed to make a good throw after fielding the hopper, if he had charged it, he might have had more time. Again, perhaps he wasn't aware how fast the runner was (this guy is really fast). All in all, not a major league effort, with an oddness added for his reaction to the popup dropping.

That Bert and Dick threw him under the bus indicates that the end is near IMHO.

notoriousgod71
08-08-2012, 05:48 PM
Give Nishi credit. He didn't just stand and point at the ball like Delmon.

J-Dog Dungan
08-08-2012, 05:50 PM
OK, I was working today so I missed whatever happened. What did Nishi do today?Here is a summary of what Nishi has done wrong in the last few days, according to Phil Mackey of 1500espn.com:Monday: Made an error of the first ball hit to him, and threw the ball wide to first. Charged with another error later on in the gameTuesday: Went to the wrong spot on a relay throw-something he has been working on in AAA, and was late covering the bag on a bunt play.Today: Where do I start? He botched a double play ball, lost a pop fly in the sun and then started walking away from it, and made a bad throw home where a good throw would have gotten the runner.Also, he is still 0-fer, the only good things he has done at the plate is to sac-fly in the go-ahead run yesterday, and take one walk.

fatbeer
08-08-2012, 06:00 PM
Give Nishi credit. He didn't just stand and point at the ball like Delmon.

I missed the part where this ball bounced into the stands. Dislike Delmon all you want but on that play the last thing he should have done was go after the ball, the umps awarded 3 bases on something that was a possible double that has nothing to do with the left fielder.

minn55441
08-08-2012, 06:02 PM
Criticism should be aimed at Twins, not Tsuyoshi Nishioka

From Mackey's article today.
"Nishioka's performance this week was so bad -- save for a sac fly on Tuesday that drove home the go-ahead run in the ninth inning -- that even TV and radio analysts Bert Blyleven and Dan Gladden were more critical than usual. But as easy as it is to pile on the guy who is clearly overmatched in the major leagues, continuing to rip on Nishioka is missing the target entirely."

I agree, this should not be another "rip Nishi thread", but instead as the title indicates "Is it time to just release him"?

What benefit is there to keeping him on the 40 man roster. Does Rochester need a SS/2B for the remainder of this year and 2013? I think everyone is agreed he has no business setting foot on another major league diamond. I say write him and check and have him clean out his locker. His visit to the US is over.

mnfireman
08-08-2012, 06:04 PM
Trade him to Cleveland, after watching 2 of the 3 games, he'd fit right in!

diehardtwinsfan
08-08-2012, 06:12 PM
Tell Dave to go nuts, hell I'm pretty sure the whole JJ/Nishi debates lead to the most fun I've ever had on BYTO.


To be clear, I don't think many people were in favor of dumping JJ... I know I wasn't on that list. Most of us thought that Nishi could be a .700 OPS guy playing above average defense.... sadly, none of us saw him play.

ScottyB
08-08-2012, 06:35 PM
I wouldn't release him with $3M left for next year. Instead I would send him to Fort Meyers or maybe the Gulf Coast League. Embarrass him enough and he will leave his contract and go back to Japan. He isn't even a AAAA or AAA player. Then use that $3M to add on to a decent pitcher for next year.

diehardtwinsfan
08-08-2012, 06:41 PM
I don't think there's a person on this planet who would turn down 3M for 6 months of embarrassment.

mudcat14
08-08-2012, 07:09 PM
Not sure of the particulars of MLB contracts, but couldn't they offer him a lesser buyout and free-agency, or tell him he'll spend next year as a $3mil back-up in AA-AAA? I would assume there's still a market for him in his homeland. Maybe they could sell him back to a Japanese team for next to nothing if they assumed his contract. He was already making that much over there before wasn't he?

Mchans24
08-08-2012, 07:21 PM
thrylos98 - I won't say you're missing the point about Nishy, but you're maybe undervaluing it.

Yes, it's true that short of maiming or murdering productive teammates, Nishy in a utility role won't affect the outcome of this throwaway season in any meaningful way.

That's not the point. The point is that Nish isn't being played to avoid the appearance of sunk cost, he's playing because an injury to one infielder has left the Twins with no appreciably better option than an abject failure.

This is a guy who barely looks like he's played any baseball before, let alone the major league kind. Just his presence on the roster is a powerful indictment of the failure of a business that has received an enormous public subsidy. Sure, that doesn't obligate the Twins to spend, let alone win.

But short of Terry Ryan forcing the fans at home games to enter through a single gate and personally telling every one of them to go f#@% themselves, it's hard to see how he could cultivate more ill will than the kind generated by allowing a ballplayer who can't play ball to suit up every night.

PS Thanks for posting the awesome Nishy Error photo...



Seriously peed my pants laughing at the TR bit at the gate!!

jokin
08-08-2012, 08:03 PM
Nishi's misplays: I just watched the game on DVR and they weren't quite as bad as I thought. He made a nice diving stop on his official error, but perhaps not knowing the runner was slow (or being a showboat) he tried to flip the ball from his glove. He looked like he had the ball measured on the popup, let it drop and oddly just walked instead of quickley getting the ball. He needed to make a good throw after fielding the hopper, if he had charged it, he might have had more time. Again, perhaps he wasn't aware how fast the runner was (this guy is really fast). All in all, not a major league effort, with an oddness added for his reaction to the popup dropping.

That Bert and Dick threw him under the bus indicates that the end is near IMHO.

I know it's part of our better nature to try to be generous here, but, the nice diving stop was not only unnecessary, his flip was also unnecessary, his unnecessary flip also went in a direction opposite to where Dozier was positioned at 2B. Measured pop-up? He let it drop a good 10-15 in front of him, and turned away opposite from where the ball landed in front of him. On the play at home with the drawn-in infield set up to get the out at home, even a junior-high 2B knows to charge the ball and throw in one motion to the plate, again, the opposite of how Nishi fielded it. You forgot to mention the uncomfortable situation on the SF bunt with he and Mauer both covering 1B, Nishi getting to the bag late due to his semi-circular route instead of the taking the shortest distance between two points.

Not a major league effort indeed- and if Seth was correct in his source for the Twins scouts labeling him a a AA-level infielder- even that was a part of our better nature in trying to be generous.

notoriousgod71
08-08-2012, 08:41 PM
I missed the part where this ball bounced into the stands. Dislike Delmon all you want but on that play the last thing he should have done was go after the ball, the umps awarded 3 bases on something that was a possible double that has nothing to do with the left fielder.

No, there was a play last year where Delmon predictably shied away from the wall and the ball bounced past him and he stood and pointed while Span had to run over from center field. It was the source of lots of mockery, criticism, and possibly a screen cap on BYTO.

darin617
08-08-2012, 10:38 PM
Let me put it this way:

- Believe it or not, Nishioka is not the reason the Twins lost 99 last season and are in pace of losing 90+ this season
- This team has bigger fish to fry that dealing with whether or not Nishioka can be the 25th man on the 2013 roster
- And this is a team that carried the likes of Matt Tolbert and Brian Butcher on division winning rosters

Bigger fish to fry. Really. And, yes, Nishioka is who he is. He cannot help it. If you want to complain about someone complain about the manager who is playing him or the general manager who got him to the majors.

And here is the kicker: Nishioka's play did not cost the Twins a single game. Even if he caught everything thrown his way today they would still have lost...

Bigger.Fish.To.Fry

Must be talking about Gardy... Finally somebody gets it.

jokin
08-08-2012, 10:43 PM
Must be talking about Gardy... Finally somebody gets it.

The decision to play Nishi is coming at levels of management above Gardy, this is straight from the top.

Riverbrian
08-08-2012, 11:41 PM
I honestly have no idea what is going on here. Why he has a major league uniform to wear is beyond me. I'm really trying not to embellish but he plays like he's stoned out of his mind. I seriously can't discount that possibility. This is major league baseball. It's Major League Baseball. His play isn't even close to the level of Major League Baseball.

How did the scouts miss this as badly as they did.

If the Scouts are ranking him as a AA infielder... I think they are still missing it badly. Take his performance last year and 3 games this year and I've seen enough. Based on what I have seen... He would struggle to land a starting job at Kent State. There is nothing to showcase here... There is nothing to develop... Cut ties first thing in the morning... Eat the money and move on. No need to torture him with low level backup duties. No need to torture his teammates and Twins Fans... Just cut him and let him begin the rest of his life.

If upper management is forcing or asking Gardy to play him. That will change tonight or there is a huge argument taking place on the phone or in person.

Seriously... What is going on here?

howeda7
08-09-2012, 12:15 AM
The only possible justification for him still being here when Plouffe comes back is if they're trying to humiliate him into walking away. And we're only talking about $3 million next year, not $30. There's no other excuse for him not to be released within a week. It's embarrassing to watch.

jokin
08-09-2012, 12:16 AM
I honestly have no idea what is going on here. Why he has a major league uniform to wear is beyond me. I'm really trying not to embellish but he plays like he's stoned out of his mind. I seriously can't discount that possibility. This is major league baseball. It's Major League Baseball. His play isn't even close to the level of Major League Baseball.

How did the scouts miss this as badly as they did.

If the Scouts are ranking him as a AA infielder... I think they are still missing it badly. Take his performance last year and 3 games this year and I've seen enough. Based on what I have seen... He would struggle to land a starting job at Kent State. There is nothing to showcase here... There is nothing to develop... Cut ties first thing in the morning... Eat the money and move on. No need to torture him with low level backup duties. No need to torture his teammates and Twins Fans... Just cut him and let him begin the rest of his life.

If upper management is forcing or asking Gardy to play him. That will change tonight or there is a huge argument taking place on the phone or in person.

Seriously... What is going on here?

As previously posted, I've theorized (semi-tongue-in-cheek) that it might take the Commissioner of Baseball to take action to act in "the best interests of baseball."

Highabove
08-09-2012, 12:23 AM
Somewhere, there's a Team missing a Second Baseman.


http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/images/6/1/8/33479618/mascots_cut_499q34zl.jpg

twinstalker
08-09-2012, 12:29 AM
I think the organization should be forced to admit and correct every other obvious (at the time) mistake they've made before they get to even take Nishi out of the lineup.

Examples:
1. Bunting
2. Playing the infield back, then bunting
3. Treating saves as if they're meaningful
4. Acting as if hitting the ball to the right side is doing your job (if your job is making precious outs, i guess)
5. Batting left handed hitters in a row (a.k.a making the Tyler Robertsons or Tony Sipps out there 3x more valuable)
6. Celebrating making the playoffs twice
7. Setting the bar at competing in the AL Central
8. Failing to platoon where obvious and necessary
9. Putting players in the "doghouse" and getting rid of them, if possible
10. Selling at the lowest possible point
11. Never selling at the highest possible point
12. Not understand noise (variance is the basis for the field of statistics)
13. Not appreciating fielding range and arms.
14. Not understanding how to deal with players under your control, contract-wise.
15. Thinking a player''s performance against you (versus all other info) is the truth
16. Depending on scouts, especially those scouting Japan, in spite of statistics and measureables.
17. Not appreciating obp
18. Micro-managing in the playoffs, relative to the regular season
19. Not understand the importance of K/9
20. Not understanding game theory in the least
21. Giving out long contracts to bad or not-worth-it players.
22. Not appreciating BA against

I have pretty much hated most moves made by the Twins since 2002, starting with retaining Gardenhire all these years (1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,13,17,18). You can fit most of the mistakes made by the team and organization into one of these, including:

Restricting my criticism to guys who were on the Twins (at time of mistake) or brought in as free agents:

not trading Jacque Jones after 2002 (8, 10, 11, 17)
dumping Ortiz (17)
Rick Reed (19,21)
Carl Pavano (19,21)
Shannon Stewart (13,19)
Tony Batista (13, 16, 17)
Craig Monroe (15)
and you can fill in the rest...
Delmon Young
Matt Garza
Jason Bartlett
Kevin Slowey
Matt Capps (definitely as a re-sign, but only one I mention also as trade return, because the bad thinking above caused you to happen)
Wilson Ramos
Francisco Liriano
Matt Capps
Tsuyoshi Nishioka
Cory Koskie
Johan Santana
Hardy
Blackburn
Willingham (this is one for the future, since indication are the Twins will handle this wrong--his value will never be higher than it was in July)

I'm sure I've missed a bunch. Meanwhile, here are the good things the Twins have done:

Pierzynski (sold from a position of power, only case of ever selling high)
Milton (to get similar back without salary)
Guardado (back then we thought they understood "closers" were replaceable)
Hawkins (good decision, too expensive and replaceable)
Willingham (very good signing)
Span (very good long-term contract)
Doumit (good signing and re-signing)

I'm sure I've missed some bad and good both, but most missing here are average (like the first Pavano signing after 2009 for one year). I also don't count "deals" where the Twins were basically just taking on someone else's salary, so Carlos Gomez (for Hardy) and the guy we "traded" for Rauch don't count.

Except for the long-term signing of Stewart, post-2003 was the best period for the Twins decision-making, although it bugs me Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was when dealing (a scout recommended him after negotiations started), he got lucky there, though he already was going to get fair value in Nathan. If you would have asked my group of friends in 2003 who the Twins should go after from the Giants, they would have said Nathan and Liriano, among others...and Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was. That's scary. Further, the Guardado and Hawkins and Milton decisions were completely financially-based.

They've made mistake after mistake after mistake. And they really only needed to make some good decisions in the middle of the last decade for us to have fond memories of another pennant. I've agonized each of these (bad) decisions when they occurred and somehow stayed a fan, to the point I still watch each game when they're out of it. I have season tix, though this might be it for me.

So as far as I'm concerned, I think this organization should acknowledge each of these mistakes prior to being allowed to sit Nishioka.

"We really don't understand statistics or game theory, especially as they pertain to baseball, the field I happen to work in. I want to apologize to the Twins Nation for our willingness to cap our efforts to improve our team (most of which would have more likely had the opposite effect, ironically) to a level of competitiveness beyond our own division, knowing we had four of the very best players in all of baseball. I, Terry Ryan, would like to personally apologize for Tony Batista in 2006, not understanding that I needed to deal Santana in 2007, and recommending maybe the most horrific of all replacements when I retired, though how in the world would I have understood that he was incompetent. He was my protege, after all. I didn't realize how overmatched I was. There are so many more specifics that I could apologize for or apologize for on behalf of Bill, but that would take far too much time. I would like to say to those people who think we had to pitch Liriano again after his 15 strikeout game that no, we didn't have to. We could have just rested him and let the bidders bid, given his next start was only a week before the deadline. Honestly it just didn't occur to us. Much like when we failed to offer a timely contract to Travis Lee. I hope you all remember the AJ trade, though."

Okay, Terry, we accept your apology if you have actually decided to take your job seriously this time round, but your deadline decisions don't appear that you necessarily have. Still, I'm all for keeping Willingham if the best you were offered is a Daniel Corcini and nothing else of significance. Or Span if you weren't even offered that for him. Tell me that's the case, and I'll believe you.

You may dump Nishioka now.

glunn
08-09-2012, 12:36 AM
I would assume there's still a market for him in his homeland. Maybe they could sell him back to a Japanese team for next to nothing if they assumed his contract. He was already making that much over there before wasn't he?

This makes a lot of sense, mudcat. I wish that someone would explain why this would not be a good solution!

jokin
08-09-2012, 12:46 AM
From a Startribune column that was just published online by Patrick Reusse:


"Before Wednesday's first pitch, I sent an e-mail to General Manager Terry Ryan asking for the official version of why Gardenhire had said of Nishioka, "He's here to play.'' Ryan's response was: "I am not sure what you are looking for. It is up to Gardy to make out the lineup with the 25 players available.

''Gardenhire's public comments Wednesday did not sound like those of a manager who was playing Nishioka because he wanted to. He harrumphed his way through a Nishioka question from reporters and said he was done talking about the second baseman.It seems clear that Gardenhire was playing Nishioka in Cleveland at the behest of the front office.

The Twins still owe him $4 million and, best guess, Ryan didn't want to write it off without taking another look."

And some still ask why many of us are demanding philosophical changes and new blood in management?

glunn
08-09-2012, 12:52 AM
Maybe the Twins are auditioning Nishi for sale to a Japanese team? I wish that someone would explain to mudcat why his idea is not a good one.

Also, does Nishi get even a crumb of credit for hitting the sacrifice fly that plated the go ahead run against Cleveland last night?

jokin
08-09-2012, 12:57 AM
Maybe the Twins are auditioning Nishi for sale to a Japanese team? I wish that someone would explain to mudcat why his idea is not a good one.

Also, does Nishi get even a crumb of credit for hitting the sacrifice fly that plated the go ahead run against Cleveland last night?

I understand the part that they're trying to make lemonade out of a lemon. His "audition" was, and should conintue to be, taking place in Rochester. If you saw Duensing scream into his glove at the end of the 6th inning today and watched Gardy during his postgame presser, you'd understand how damaging to team morale it is, and to fan loyalty, to continue this ludicrous farce.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-09-2012, 08:03 AM
I understand the blame being put on the scouts to some degree, but let's be honest. Nishioka still won a batting title in Japan and was considered at the very least an average fielder(he wont gold gloves-i know i know, not a huge deal, but still, many reports said he was a slick fielder), nobody could have expected he would be this putrid in the field and at the plate when he came over. At the very worst they/we all thought he would be a Punto type player with possibly a little less defense.

I have to imagine he isn't the same player he was in Japan, at this point I'd have to think Sano would be a better 2B/SS defensively then him at this point.

Yes, it was a very bad signing, yes our scouts dropped the ball. But at what point do you point the finger at the real person to blame? And that is Nishioka himself. The dude has no business being on a major league, AAA or AA ball field at this point. People can feel "bad" for him all they want, basically screw him, he's getting paid a lot of money and he is looking completely lost out on the diamond. He should feel bad for his play out there.

It's a lost season anyways, so I hope that is the reason why Ryan wanted to "see what they have" one last time before kicking his ass to the curb. If this team was anywhere near contention I imagine they would have called up Escobar. Either way, I can't see Nishi lasting for more then 5 more games unless he does a complete 180 as a ball player.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-09-2012, 08:05 AM
I understand the part that they're trying to make lemonade out of a lemon. His "audition" was, and should conintue to be, taking place in Rochester. If you saw Duensing scream into his glove at the end of the 6th inning today and watched Gardy during his postgame presser, you'd understand how damaging to team morale it is, and to fan loyalty, to continue this ludicrous farce.
Just think of how good morale will be when they dump him!
Also perhaps the only silver lining on this will be to open the Twins eyes and the Twins pitcher's eyes to "holy hell, we should probably start striking people out more"

DPJ
08-09-2012, 08:07 AM
Just think of how good morale will be when they dump him!
Also perhaps the only silver lining on this will be to open the Twins eyes and the Twins pitcher's eyes to "holy hell, we should probably start striking people out more"

If the Twins haven't realized in 2012 that strike outs are good, I doubt a ****ty fielding Asian man is gonna change that.

East Coast Twin
08-10-2012, 06:33 AM
I would assume there's still a market for him in his homeland. Maybe they could sell him back to a Japanese team for next to nothing if they assumed his contract. He was already making that much over there before wasn't he?

John Shipley also mentioned that scenario in his Pioneer Press article yesterday.

The Twins also could waive or designate Nishioka for assignment, amounting to his outright release, but that seems unnecessary because he has options and the Twins don't need a 40-man roster spot right now. Also, because he's under contract to Minnesota, the Twins could recoup some money if Nishioka decided he was done with major league baseball. For instance, he could not return to Japan next season unless a team there bought his contract from the Twins.

sorney
08-10-2012, 07:33 AM
I think the organization should be forced to admit and correct every other obvious (at the time) mistake they've made before they get to even take Nishi out of the lineup.

Examples:
1. Bunting
2. Playing the infield back, then bunting
3. Treating saves as if they're meaningful
4. Acting as if hitting the ball to the right side is doing your job (if your job is making precious outs, i guess)
5. Batting left handed hitters in a row (a.k.a making the Tyler Robertsons or Tony Sipps out there 3x more valuable)
6. Celebrating making the playoffs twice
7. Setting the bar at competing in the AL Central
8. Failing to platoon where obvious and necessary
9. Putting players in the "doghouse" and getting rid of them, if possible
10. Selling at the lowest possible point
11. Never selling at the highest possible point
12. Not understand noise (variance is the basis for the field of statistics)
13. Not appreciating fielding range and arms.
14. Not understanding how to deal with players under your control, contract-wise.
15. Thinking a player''s performance against you (versus all other info) is the truth
16. Depending on scouts, especially those scouting Japan, in spite of statistics and measureables.
17. Not appreciating obp
18. Micro-managing in the playoffs, relative to the regular season
19. Not understand the importance of K/9
20. Not understanding game theory in the least
21. Giving out long contracts to bad or not-worth-it players.
22. Not appreciating BA against

I have pretty much hated most moves made by the Twins since 2002, starting with retaining Gardenhire all these years (1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,13,17,18). You can fit most of the mistakes made by the team and organization into one of these, including:

Restricting my criticism to guys who were on the Twins (at time of mistake) or brought in as free agents:

not trading Jacque Jones after 2002 (8, 10, 11, 17)
dumping Ortiz (17)
Rick Reed (19,21)
Carl Pavano (19,21)
Shannon Stewart (13,19)
Tony Batista (13, 16, 17)
Craig Monroe (15)
and you can fill in the rest...
Delmon Young
Matt Garza
Jason Bartlett
Kevin Slowey
Matt Capps (definitely as a re-sign, but only one I mention also as trade return, because the bad thinking above caused you to happen)
Wilson Ramos
Francisco Liriano
Matt Capps
Tsuyoshi Nishioka
Cory Koskie
Johan Santana
Hardy
Blackburn
Willingham (this is one for the future, since indication are the Twins will handle this wrong--his value will never be higher than it was in July)

I'm sure I've missed a bunch. Meanwhile, here are the good things the Twins have done:

Pierzynski (sold from a position of power, only case of ever selling high)
Milton (to get similar back without salary)
Guardado (back then we thought they understood "closers" were replaceable)
Hawkins (good decision, too expensive and replaceable)
Willingham (very good signing)
Span (very good long-term contract)
Doumit (good signing and re-signing)

I'm sure I've missed some bad and good both, but most missing here are average (like the first Pavano signing after 2009 for one year). I also don't count "deals" where the Twins were basically just taking on someone else's salary, so Carlos Gomez (for Hardy) and the guy we "traded" for Rauch don't count.

Except for the long-term signing of Stewart, post-2003 was the best period for the Twins decision-making, although it bugs me Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was when dealing (a scout recommended him after negotiations started), he got lucky there, though he already was going to get fair value in Nathan. If you would have asked my group of friends in 2003 who the Twins should go after from the Giants, they would have said Nathan and Liriano, among others...and Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was. That's scary. Further, the Guardado and Hawkins and Milton decisions were completely financially-based.

They've made mistake after mistake after mistake. And they really only needed to make some good decisions in the middle of the last decade for us to have fond memories of another pennant. I've agonized each of these (bad) decisions when they occurred and somehow stayed a fan, to the point I still watch each game when they're out of it. I have season tix, though this might be it for me.

So as far as I'm concerned, I think this organization should acknowledge each of these mistakes prior to being allowed to sit Nishioka.

"We really don't understand statistics or game theory, especially as they pertain to baseball, the field I happen to work in. I want to apologize to the Twins Nation for our willingness to cap our efforts to improve our team (most of which would have more likely had the opposite effect, ironically) to a level of competitiveness beyond our own division, knowing we had four of the very best players in all of baseball. I, Terry Ryan, would like to personally apologize for Tony Batista in 2006, not understanding that I needed to deal Santana in 2007, and recommending maybe the most horrific of all replacements when I retired, though how in the world would I have understood that he was incompetent. He was my protege, after all. I didn't realize how overmatched I was. There are so many more specifics that I could apologize for or apologize for on behalf of Bill, but that would take far too much time. I would like to say to those people who think we had to pitch Liriano again after his 15 strikeout game that no, we didn't have to. We could have just rested him and let the bidders bid, given his next start was only a week before the deadline. Honestly it just didn't occur to us. Much like when we failed to offer a timely contract to Travis Lee. I hope you all remember the AJ trade, though."

Okay, Terry, we accept your apology if you have actually decided to take your job seriously this time round, but your deadline decisions don't appear that you necessarily have. Still, I'm all for keeping Willingham if the best you were offered is a Daniel Corcini and nothing else of significance. Or Span if you weren't even offered that for him. Tell me that's the case, and I'll believe you.

You may dump Nishioka now.

What he said!!

BobH
08-10-2012, 09:22 AM
I think the organization should be forced to admit and correct every other obvious (at the time) mistake they've made before they get to even take Nishi out of the lineup.

Examples:
1. Bunting
2. Playing the infield back, then bunting
3. Treating saves as if they're meaningful
4. Acting as if hitting the ball to the right side is doing your job (if your job is making precious outs, i guess)
5. Batting left handed hitters in a row (a.k.a making the Tyler Robertsons or Tony Sipps out there 3x more valuable)
6. Celebrating making the playoffs twice
7. Setting the bar at competing in the AL Central
8. Failing to platoon where obvious and necessary
9. Putting players in the "doghouse" and getting rid of them, if possible
10. Selling at the lowest possible point
11. Never selling at the highest possible point
12. Not understand noise (variance is the basis for the field of statistics)
13. Not appreciating fielding range and arms.
14. Not understanding how to deal with players under your control, contract-wise.
15. Thinking a player''s performance against you (versus all other info) is the truth
16. Depending on scouts, especially those scouting Japan, in spite of statistics and measureables.
17. Not appreciating obp
18. Micro-managing in the playoffs, relative to the regular season
19. Not understand the importance of K/9
20. Not understanding game theory in the least
21. Giving out long contracts to bad or not-worth-it players.
22. Not appreciating BA against

I have pretty much hated most moves made by the Twins since 2002, starting with retaining Gardenhire all these years (1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,13,17,18). You can fit most of the mistakes made by the team and organization into one of these, including:

Restricting my criticism to guys who were on the Twins (at time of mistake) or brought in as free agents:

not trading Jacque Jones after 2002 (8, 10, 11, 17)
dumping Ortiz (17)
Rick Reed (19,21)
Carl Pavano (19,21)
Shannon Stewart (13,19)
Tony Batista (13, 16, 17)
Craig Monroe (15)
and you can fill in the rest...
Delmon Young
Matt Garza
Jason Bartlett
Kevin Slowey
Matt Capps (definitely as a re-sign, but only one I mention also as trade return, because the bad thinking above caused you to happen)
Wilson Ramos
Francisco Liriano
Matt Capps
Tsuyoshi Nishioka
Cory Koskie
Johan Santana
Hardy
Blackburn
Willingham (this is one for the future, since indication are the Twins will handle this wrong--his value will never be higher than it was in July)

I'm sure I've missed a bunch. Meanwhile, here are the good things the Twins have done:

Pierzynski (sold from a position of power, only case of ever selling high)
Milton (to get similar back without salary)
Guardado (back then we thought they understood "closers" were replaceable)
Hawkins (good decision, too expensive and replaceable)
Willingham (very good signing)
Span (very good long-term contract)
Doumit (good signing and re-signing)

I'm sure I've missed some bad and good both, but most missing here are average (like the first Pavano signing after 2009 for one year). I also don't count "deals" where the Twins were basically just taking on someone else's salary, so Carlos Gomez (for Hardy) and the guy we "traded" for Rauch don't count.

Except for the long-term signing of Stewart, post-2003 was the best period for the Twins decision-making, although it bugs me Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was when dealing (a scout recommended him after negotiations started), he got lucky there, though he already was going to get fair value in Nathan. If you would have asked my group of friends in 2003 who the Twins should go after from the Giants, they would have said Nathan and Liriano, among others...and Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was. That's scary. Further, the Guardado and Hawkins and Milton decisions were completely financially-based.

They've made mistake after mistake after mistake. And they really only needed to make some good decisions in the middle of the last decade for us to have fond memories of another pennant. I've agonized each of these (bad) decisions when they occurred and somehow stayed a fan, to the point I still watch each game when they're out of it. I have season tix, though this might be it for me.

So as far as I'm concerned, I think this organization should acknowledge each of these mistakes prior to being allowed to sit Nishioka.

"We really don't understand statistics or game theory, especially as they pertain to baseball, the field I happen to work in. I want to apologize to the Twins Nation for our willingness to cap our efforts to improve our team (most of which would have more likely had the opposite effect, ironically) to a level of competitiveness beyond our own division, knowing we had four of the very best players in all of baseball. I, Terry Ryan, would like to personally apologize for Tony Batista in 2006, not understanding that I needed to deal Santana in 2007, and recommending maybe the most horrific of all replacements when I retired, though how in the world would I have understood that he was incompetent. He was my protege, after all. I didn't realize how overmatched I was. There are so many more specifics that I could apologize for or apologize for on behalf of Bill, but that would take far too much time. I would like to say to those people who think we had to pitch Liriano again after his 15 strikeout game that no, we didn't have to. We could have just rested him and let the bidders bid, given his next start was only a week before the deadline. Honestly it just didn't occur to us. Much like when we failed to offer a timely contract to Travis Lee. I hope you all remember the AJ trade, though."

Okay, Terry, we accept your apology if you have actually decided to take your job seriously this time round, but your deadline decisions don't appear that you necessarily have. Still, I'm all for keeping Willingham if the best you were offered is a Daniel Corcini and nothing else of significance. Or Span if you weren't even offered that for him. Tell me that's the case, and I'll believe you.

You may dump Nishioka now.

wow, nice ... then there's the medical staff

Top Gun
08-10-2012, 09:46 AM
Nishi should keep playing until Poffy gets back, maybe another week!

minn55441
08-10-2012, 12:05 PM
Nishi should keep playing until Poffy gets back, maybe another week!

By keeping him in the lineup, it sends the wrong message. Have we mailed in the season or are we still trying to win games?

Play Casilla, Masty or even Butera at 2B but don't play Nishi.