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stringer bell
08-04-2012, 08:58 AM
Dozier had a nice game on Thursday and followed it up with an 0-fer yesterday. His offensive numbers are: .240 BA, .604 OPS, 5 HR and 9 SB. Defensively, he leads the AL in errors despite not making his big-league debut until mid-May. To summarize, his performance has been pretty poor.

We all know, however, that this season is about 2013 and beyond. While there are mixed signals, I think Dozier's future is pretty bright. First and foremost, I don't think Dozier's defense is as bad as his error total. He has shown at least average range, good instincts and enough arm to be an above-average ML shortstop. The errors seem to have been in clusters, and while you can't ignore them, they may be explained by rookie inconsistency and taking offensive struggles out on the field.

I don't know if Dozier will develop offensively to be above average. One thing he did at the minor league level that has not carried over to his Twins' tenure is draw walks, which really has driven down his OBP and OPS. Perhaps experience and knowing his role here will help him to be more patient and selective. It appears that Dozier can/will provide a little sock, at least more than Carroll/Casilla and while he isn't a terror on the bases, he is capable of stealing 15-20. I think that for the balance of the season and next year, Dozier will provide more offense by being more patient and that his defense will straighten out. A lineup with Dozier hitting near the bottom can produce enough wins to contend.

Seth Stohs
08-04-2012, 09:24 AM
I had Dozier in my top 10 coming into the season and feel good about that. My thought all along was that if he could post a .650 OPS this year, that would be a nice start. I think his upside is to have a season or two in which his OPS is closer to .750, maybe .780. Unfortunately, some writers and the Twins manager talked him up like he was the next Derek Jeter, and that wasn't fair.

The key, offensively, will be the walk/strikeout rate, and I'm not worried about that because he's always been good at that. If he can hit .270/.330/.400, that's about what I expect. All Star? No. Solid starter? Sure.

As for the defense, he'll be fine.

Jim H
08-04-2012, 09:52 AM
I tend to agree with Seth on Dozier. He actually has moved thru the Twins system pretty quickly and although he isn't that young, he may of benefited from a little more time at AAA. In any case, he appears to have the tools to play major league SS, and he seems to be improving at the bat and in the field as time goes on.

Many people are a little too impatient with young players. Bartlett certainly struggled in his first go round with the Twins. I can remember when writers and others were suggesting that Gagne be moved to 3rd because of his defense and to take advantage of his "bat".

While, it takes a little time to be sure of what you have with young players when they first reach the majors, I believe that Dozier is at least a medium term answer at short. There are 2 or 3 guys in A ball or below who could potentially move Dozier off of short. But at least for a few years, I think Dozier will work just fine.

drivlikejehu
08-04-2012, 10:00 AM
He probably can do a bit better, but I doubt he'll ever be above-average. This is a guy who barely hit in college- before they reigned in the metal bats. So just to get to where he is now required a massive amount of improvement from ages 22-25. Dozier has done well to get the most out of his limited tools but there might not be much more he can do.

Riverbrian
08-04-2012, 10:07 AM
As for the defense, he'll be fine.

I'm not worried about him at the plate. He's been OK.

Defense... He's been a concern. His range seems OK and he moves well. Yet... He's been a little stone handed at times and his arm inconsistent. I hope you right Seth. I'll keep watching and waiting.

jorgenswest
08-04-2012, 10:18 AM
I don't think we expected Jeter. I hoped for Jason Bartlett.

Bartlett's rookie slash line was 241/316/335 with an OPS+ of 73.

Brian Dozier 249/271/333 OPS+ of 65 with a few months to play.

They were both 25 in their rookie seasons. It is not unreasonable that Dozier could follow his path. The difference is the walk rate which his minor league performance suggests he should be able to improve.

DAM DC Twins Fans
08-04-2012, 10:19 AM
The key, offensively, will be the walk/strikeout rate, and I'm not worried about that because he's always been good at that. If he can hit .270/.330/.400, that's about what I expect. All Star? No. Solid starter? Sure.

As for the defense, he'll be fine.

I agree with Seth--I think Dozier will be a solid MLB player--better D than Christian Guzman--maybe less offense. Good enough to play on a contending Twins team in 2014.

Thrylos
08-04-2012, 11:24 AM
We can all hope for Dozier. But (and I hate to say that) at age 25 he is behind where Casilla were at age 25 (on the other hand, Dozier is still only a couple years removed from the foil bat, and Latin American players do not use that). Hopefully, if he get consistent playing time (unlike Casilla did) he will improve; just hope that Gardy and Co do not give up on him like they did with Casilla... I like his pop, I like his gutty play. He's got to work on making solid contact with the ball and being more selective at the plate. Not sure I mind the errors this much because those are mostly from trying to do too much. He will learn his limits on the field as he plays more... Still too early to tell, but he earned the right to play the rest of the season. On the other hand, with Carroll, Nishioka, Escobar, Florimon as competition for 2012, 2013 and 2014 and more serious competition from players like Danny Santana, Beresford, Goodrum, Grimes, Michael etc in 2014+, nobody can be sure what is going to happen.

J-Dog Dungan
08-04-2012, 11:29 AM
With the higher-ceiling players down in the Minors, he might become a Casilla-type sub player when they reach the Bigs, but for now, I like him better at short than Plouffe last year (god that was awful).

one_eyed_jack
08-04-2012, 11:54 AM
He's had his ups and downs, but I'm confident that Dozier can develop into a solid MLB shortstop. The rest of the lineup is strong enough that we don't necessarily need a ton of production from him to win. And yes, the error count is high, but it often is for rookie shortstops. I expect he'll learn from those mistakes and get better. He's also made some outstanding plays in the field.

In any case, I hope the whining over the JJ Hardy trade can stop. I'd much rather be looking forward to Dozier develop than be committed to another 2 years and $15 million of Hardy with the way he's produced this year.

one_eyed_jack
08-04-2012, 12:10 PM
just hope that Gardy and Co do not give up on him like they did with Casilla.

---You've got to be kidding me. Gardy and Co "gave up" on Casilla? Really? The guy has been given multiple chances to establish himself as a regular, and he's failed at every one of them. How many more does he need?

Giving up is what the Twins did with Luke Hughes, and though you spent considerable time railing on them about it when it happened, I think his post-Twins career (demoted twice and released in a span of about 9 weeks) has validated that decision.

crarko
08-04-2012, 12:19 PM
I'm hoping Dozier could reach a level near Greg Gagne; that would be perfect for this team. Hard to tell if his defense can ever reach that point.

mike wants wins
08-04-2012, 12:25 PM
Look, I don't love Gardy in many ways as a manager (though he certainly has some strengths), but there is no way you can argue the Twins ever gave up on Casilla. He has had a lot of ABs and plenty of time in the field.

stringer bell
08-04-2012, 12:49 PM
Look, I don't love Gardy in many ways as a manager (though he certainly has some strengths), but there is no way you can argue the Twins ever gave up on Casilla. He has had a lot of ABs and plenty of time in the field.I'm probably one of the bigger Casilla rubes on this site. As a matter of fact, my screen name at Twinkietown is "Alexi Casilla All-Star" and I can't say that Gardenhire and the Twins staff has given up on Alexi. I would like to see the Twins play Casilla before Carroll (last night notwithstanding) because he's ten years younger and he provides plus defense and plus speed.

Thrylos
08-04-2012, 12:50 PM
---You've got to be kidding me. Gardy and Co "gave up" on Casilla? Really? The guy has been given multiple chances to establish himself as a regular, and he's failed at every one of them. How many more does he need?

That's a different argument, but I guess some of us define "failure" and "chances given" different that others...
Here are Casilla's seasons with the Twins:

Age 23 season: 91 OPS+ almost full time (437 PAs - his record high - 2008)
Age 24 season: 45 OPS+ (256 PAs - not consistent playing time; manager's choice)
Age 25 season: 100 OPS+ (170 PAs - not consistent playing time because of injuries)
Age 26 season: 91 OPS+ (365 PAs - not consistent playing time; injuries)

Age 27 season: 55 OPS+ (234 PA - not consistent playing time; manager's choice)

So, other than this season and his age 24 season where he underperformed, I would say OPS+ of 91 and 100 is pretty darn good for a middle infielder. (As a reference point, Nick Punto's career OPS+ is 75, and that includes his 125 last season with St. Louis; Dozier's OPS+ is 65 now and Carroll's 72.) So, I don't think that he underperformed other than that one season (his age 24) which apparently forever blemished him in the eyes of many... And he is a streaky hitter and he needs to play to hit. This is obvious this season. When he has 4-5 games in a row he hits... And we are talking about a guy who once stole 50 and another season 49 in the minors; and at age 24 (when he was sent down to Rochester, he put a .340/.379/.449 line. In AAA. as a 24 year old. He was much more of a prospect than Dozier was. Really.

I guess we can disagree on whether he was given a chance or not or whether he performed or not...

Compare his treatment to that of Butera, let's say...

jokin
08-04-2012, 12:53 PM
He's had his ups and downs, but I'm confident that Dozier can develop into a solid MLB shortstop. The rest of the lineup is strong enough that we don't necessarily need a ton of production from him to win. And yes, the error count is high, but it often is for rookie shortstops. I expect he'll learn from those mistakes and get better. He's also made some outstanding plays in the field.

In any case, I hope the whining over the JJ Hardy trade can stop. I'd much rather be looking forward to Dozier develop than be committed to another 2 years and $15 million of Hardy with the way he's produced this year.

If you want to celebrate Twins bare-bones budget cutting and pulling for raw rookies who give a good effort, then I'm right with you on Dozier. I actually like his grit, enthusiasm and occasional sparkling plays at SS. I thoroughly enjoyed his 9th inning Fenway bomb on Thursday night. But with the "New Era" Twins and TF, the means by which that they were supposed to be competitive with the premier teams, sitting through years of the exact opposite in production numbers at SS is unacceptable. Even more unfortuantely, Dozier's upside appears to be vastly limited in comparison to Hardy. When Hardy was aged 24/25 he was hitting ~25 HRS with an .820 OPS and an OPS+ of 115 (Dozier currently has a .604 OPS and an OPS+ of 65). He also carried a double-digit UZR versus Dozier's SSS on defense, but still concerningly negative UZR.

Hardy is still a premier defensive SS in an admittedly very down year offensively. Even with that being said, Hardy ranks 2nd in SS HRs with 15 and a good portion of his poor production numbers can be ascribed to bad luck- he carries a league worst for SS BABIP of .235. If and when that number returns to more historical norms, Hardy's contract is well-justified (he's actually currently ahead of pace in earning his $7.14M this year as he is currently nearly valued close to $6M with still two months left in the season- Dozier's current value is nearly -$1M.

Badsmerf
08-04-2012, 12:55 PM
I see Dozier as a guy that has all the tools of a solid MLB SS. I don't think he will ever be an all-start, but able to post a 700 OPS and play solid defense. Going forward I think he is the type of guy that you want around. He wont ever require a huge contract and will take 3-4 year deal in his prime. I don't see any of the prospects knocking him out of the MI for the next 2+ years.

BrentMpls
08-04-2012, 01:45 PM
Doesn't feel a whole lot different than Nishi

jokin
08-04-2012, 01:56 PM
Doesn't feel a whole lot different than Nishi

To you, maybe. To me, Dozier actually looks like playing MLB baseball isn't like learning a second language, as in Nishi's case. Though he may miss Ryo Shinkawa around the clubhouse for some comic relief, I bet Gardy sleeps a whole lot better each night knowing Nishi is 1000 miles away from Target Field.

stringer bell
08-04-2012, 02:02 PM
Doesn't feel a whole lot different than NishiI disagree. Besides Nishioka's lack of arm strength, I felt like he was as fundamentally unsound as any player I ever saw play for the Twins. Nishioka couldn't (can't) run and has no discernible power.

USAFChief
08-04-2012, 02:21 PM
That's a different argument, but I guess some of us define "failure" and "chances given" different that others...
Here are Casilla's seasons with the Twins:

Age 23 season: 91 OPS+ almost full time (437 PAs - his record high - 2008)
Age 24 season: 45 OPS+ (256 PAs - not consistent playing time; manager's choice)
Age 25 season: 100 OPS+ (170 PAs - not consistent playing time because of injuries)
Age 26 season: 91 OPS+ (365 PAs - not consistent playing time; injuries)

Age 27 season: 55 OPS+ (234 PA - not consistent playing time; manager's choice)

So, other than this season and his age 24 season where he underperformed, I would say OPS+ of 91 and 100 is pretty darn good for a middle infielder. (As a reference point, Nick Punto's career OPS+ is 75, and that includes his 125 last season with St. Louis; Dozier's OPS+ is 65 now and Carroll's 72.) So, I don't think that he underperformed other than that one season (his age 24) which apparently forever blemished him in the eyes of many... And he is a streaky hitter and he needs to play to hit. This is obvious this season. When he has 4-5 games in a row he hits... And we are talking about a guy who once stole 50 and another season 49 in the minors; and at age 24 (when he was sent down to Rochester, he put a .340/.379/.449 line. In AAA. as a 24 year old. He was much more of a prospect than Dozier was. Really.

I guess we can disagree on whether he was given a chance or not or whether he performed or not...

Compare his treatment to that of Butera, let's say...







Chop it up however you like. At the end of the day, it adds up to .248/.303/.331 over 6 years. He's had multiple opportunities to hold down a job, and spit the bit every time. Just stop with this crap already.

Shane Wahl
08-04-2012, 02:24 PM
Any thoughts on Dozier being the 2B of the future instead of the SS?

John Bonnes
08-04-2012, 02:28 PM
I wonder if there isn't one big thing that Dozier has going for him - Gardy lobbied for him. It seems pretty clear that Dozier was rushed through AAA because Gardy had lobbied for him last year, had his opinion solidified in a big spring training and the Twins had (kind of) an opening.

Gardy was a shortstop and I thin most would agree he's been a little goofy about them. He's their biggest critic and their biggest supporter. I don't know exactly what Gardy's support means, but I think it means that Dozier does enough stuff that Gardy likes that Gardy feels OK trotting him out there to see if Dozier develops. That is a good thing, IMHO. Like someone said above, his minor league batting eye gives me a lot of hope that he's going to get better, especially because he almost skipped AAA completely.

birdwatcher
08-04-2012, 02:41 PM
I'll bet that virtually every manager in the league would agree that Gardy has been very fair in his treatment of Alexi. Very fair. And does anyone actually think Casilla's chances have been (or should have been) limited on the basis of OPS +? How ridiculous would that be?

thrylos, you know exactly why Casilla has unfairly been denied a full-time job. Gardy can't understand OPS+. Yep. That darned Gardy again.

But really, Alexi's chances have been limited for one reason: it's in celebration of the Twins bare bone budget cutting. Yep. Hilarious once again, jokin.

jokin
08-04-2012, 03:00 PM
I'll bet that virtually every manager in the league would agree that Gardy has been very fair in his treatment of Alexi. Very fair. And does anyone actually think Casilla's chances have been (or should have been) limited on the basis of OPS +? How ridiculous would that be?

thrylos, you know exactly why Casilla has unfairly been denied a full-time job. Gardy can't understand OPS+. Yep. That darned Gardy again.

But really, Alexi's chances have been limited for one reason: it's in celebration of the Twins bare bone budget cutting. Yep. Hilarious once again, jokin.

Yes, hilariously funny- because the Twins are a much better team with minimum wage players dotting the field at key positions when they had control of one of the best at his position in baseball and got rid of him for a career AAA player.

It strikes me odd what you find hilarious in the face of the facts presented. What is that actually goes on at all of those Pohlad soirees?

birdwatcher
08-04-2012, 03:27 PM
Yep. "Mininum wage players dotting the field at key positions". Yep. "Bare bones budget cutting". Yep. Pohlad "makes his living finding wiggle room for every word he utters." Yep.

This is what you call "facts presented". Yep. Your credibility is impeccable, jokin.

Why not just tone down the rhetoric? You see, jokin, out here in the sycamore trees, where reality fails to be grasped, at all the dinner parties and soirees, you don't find the kind of dishonest "droning of garbled commentary" that you call "facts". As a matter of "fact", people are actually pretty fair-minded toward each other at all our dinner parties and soirees. And the food? Really really good.

BrentMpls
08-04-2012, 04:36 PM
I disagree. Besides Nishioka's lack of arm strength, I felt like he was as fundamentally unsound as any player I ever saw play for the Twins. Nishioka couldn't (can't) run and has no discernible power.


I agree, sadly the end result is one with not much difference

Wolfy
08-04-2012, 05:15 PM
Dozier is frustrating.

You can certainly accept a little bit of the standard explanations they've been using, but the inconsistency in the field has been a concern. A ground ball is a ground ball, and a throw to first base is a throw to first base no matter what level you play.

He has botched way too many plays this year,, and the Twins shouldn't think they've got the answer for the next ten years out there just yet.

Jim H
08-04-2012, 06:37 PM
Dozier is frustrating.

You can certainly accept a little bit of the standard explanations they've been using, but the inconsistency in the field has been a concern. A ground ball is a ground ball, and a throw to first base is a throw to first base no matter what level you play.

He has botched way too many plays this year,, and the Twins shouldn't think they've got the answer for the next ten years out there just yet.

I agree with this. I don't think the Twins think they have the answer for the next ten years. Dozier must improve his consistency. But, as I mentioned before, that is generally the way it is with many young shortstops. Bartlett made many spectacular plays for the Twins, but it took him awhile to achieve much consistency. In fact he managed to mess up a number of pretty routine plays for Tampa Bay, which may be part of the reason(along with money and injuries) why they didn't consider him a core player and traded him. Gagne had high error totals as well during his first couple seasons.

I like what we have seen of Dozier, so far. If this is as good as it gets, well thats not very good. But I expect him to smooth out the defense, with the possibility of becoming a top of the order hitter. The thought by an earilier poster that he could become a 2nd baseman is a real possibilty as well. But I think he will be good enough to hold down shortstop until/if a higher impact shortstop works his way through the system.

jokin
08-04-2012, 06:41 PM
Yep. "Mininum wage players dotting the field at key positions". Yep. "Bare bones budget cutting". Yep. Pohlad "makes his living finding wiggle room for every word he utters." Yep.

This is what you call "facts presented". Yep. Your credibility is impeccable, jokin.

Why not just tone down the rhetoric? You see, jokin, out here in the sycamore trees, where reality fails to be grasped, at all the dinner parties and soirees, you don't find the kind of dishonest "droning of garbled commentary" that you call "facts". As a matter of "fact", people are actually pretty fair-minded toward each other at all our dinner parties and soirees. And the food? Really really good.

I hilariously noted you continue to fail to acknowledge a single fact that was presented. I'll waste my time and give you some more facts to chew over.

1) Dozier isn't a minimum wage player at a key position? Plouffe? Valencia? Revere (playing RF- designed for a power hitter- the departed Young, Kubel and Cuddyer make $24.725M- Willingham and Revere make $7.4925M)?
2) Trading Hardy for Hoey was bare bones budget cutting. Hardy's initial replacements at SS? Minimum wagers Tolbert, Casilla and Plouffe.
3) 3B? With the exception of Joe Crede's short coffee break in '09, nothing but minimum wagers and a barely above minimum wager, LNP, since the Corey Koskie era ended in '04.
3) If you don't see that Pohlad does what he should do as a man in his position, ie, carefully crafts every utterance to protect his investment and interests, that's your problem, not mine.

John Bonnes
08-04-2012, 06:48 PM
I think there is a lot of value in having serviceable players at minimum wage rates. The 2002 through 2004 Twins were made almost entirely of such players. Is your point that Dozier will never be more than average? Because the makes him a pretty good addition for the next five years.

Maybe I'm missing the point....

Alex
08-04-2012, 07:29 PM
Back to Dozier, I obviously hope he performs very well and it would mean good things for the Twins if he did, but I look at the evidence a little differently than those that think he can be more than a utility player, sadly, that would mean a lot of trouble for th Twins.

Dozier's success has not been sustained and has come when he is older than much of the competition, so I'm worried his success is a mirage. The first season he hit well was rookie ball with an OPS at .837. But, he was 22, pretty much the top end of the age spectrum there where most players are 18-20. If you're a 22 year-old in rookie ball who hopes to be in the majors, you'd probably better be crushing the ball.

His second successful hitting season was at AA as a 24 year-old, but even that season was split with 40 games at high A-ball. His numbers were similar between both, so that was good to see. While 24 is more in the middle for AA ball, IMO, a player that has potential to be a major league starter should be further along. For example, look at Twins prospects Hicks and Arcia. Both are younger than Dozier and are handling AA pitching just fine.

So I'd like to see evidence of sustained success at a level commiserate with his age and development. For me, at least AAA seems like the right level for him to be showing His brief stint there wasn't impressive and he's very clearly overmatched in the pros.

Do those of you that think he's going to be a legit starter/full time player have evidence for comparison that show this? For example, Bartlett was mentioned, but he hit consistently from 2003-2006 in minors, and from 2005 posted far more acceptable OBP In the pros form 2005 on (25 years old). He's a great comparison from a developmental and age perspective but was much more consistent in the minors.

USAFChief
08-04-2012, 07:35 PM
I don't really know what to think of Dozier at this point, but what better option do the Twins currently have than letting him play SS every day in the big leagues? He's going to be the opening day starter in 2013, I'd bet a large sum of money on that.

Alex
08-04-2012, 07:42 PM
I don't really know what to think of Dozier at this point, but what better option do the Twins currently have than letting him play SS every day in the big leagues? He's going to be the opening day starter in 2013, I'd bet a large sum of money on that.

That's sort of my point. Our hopes rest on him and so do the Twins, but I think that middle infield may be a high position of need among several but maybe only second to starting pitching.

jokin
08-04-2012, 08:30 PM
I think there is a lot of value in having serviceable players at minimum wage rates. The 2002 through 2004 Twins were made almost entirely of such players. Is your point that Dozier will never be more than average? Because the makes him a pretty good addition for the next five years.

Maybe I'm missing the point....

The situation was of course, quite different then. Though the jury is clearly out, I think Dozier can possibly be an average SS, but the timing is horrible having to rely on the hope that he reaches his full potential sooner rather than later.

The Twins are caught, rock/hard-place-style, between rebuilding and reloading. I'm a firm believer that you can't do both and if you read between the lines ("there is no quick fix") Terry Ryan admitted as much last Thursday, followed by Dave St Peter today. They have 4 higher- to very high-priced players and some other dependable veterans who have a short window left at their peak production years, meanwhile the Twins are about to unload virtually the entire opening day starting pitching staff, leaving another off-season of vast uncertainty about the SP makeup for next year and possibly even holding tryouts for the last 3 SP spots in 2013 Spring Training- somewhat akin to what they did this year for the relievers.

Is the timing right at making a 2013/14 run at a pennant, on behalf of those veterans to-

1) have an unheralded and (understandably) under-performing rookie at the most important defensive position,
2) have a complete question mark at 3B to open the 2012 season that only was "solved" with a Hail Mary desperation move with Plouffe (who in turn, has his own set of question marks), and
3) a current (and near future?) SP staff replete with soft-throwing AAAers, maybe an as-yet unknown FA, maybe mid-season help from a wounded-wing TJ surgery recoverer and maybe another 8-year career minor leaguer who doesn't have any idea where his next pitch is headed-

all in lieu of having proven major leaguers at SS, 3B and SP to give the vets one last shot for the brass ring as a group? The Twins, though not admitting it for obvious reasons, have been offloading salary in the midst of rebuilding in stages and still hoping to appear to be reloading and competitive in the interim, it doesn't usually work out that well.

John Bonnes
08-04-2012, 11:24 PM
The situation was of course, quite different then. Though the jury is clearly out, I think Dozier can possibly be an average SS, but the timing is horrible having to rely on the hope that he reaches his full potential sooner rather than later....
....
....all in lieu of having proven major leaguers at SS, 3B and SP to give the vets one last shot for the brass ring as a group? The Twins, though not admitting it for obvious reasons, have been offloading salary in the midst of rebuilding in stages and still hoping to appear to be reloading and competitive in the interim, it doesn't usually work out that well.

So your point is the Twins need to add high-performing or solid vets at SS, 3B & several starting pitchers? I think that means they either need to spend a lot this offseason or trade away prospects for more solid, albeit expensive guys? Is that what you're saying?

I guess if that's the bigger view, then I can see why you would be dissatisfied with Dozier.

I'll add one thing: the Twins have a bigger view too, and it involves developing minor leaguers. Even if they had another $50M payroll, I think plugging in players like Dozier would be a priority or them. They feel strongly that is part of their mission.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-04-2012, 11:48 PM
Doizer has been pretty bad this year overall, but with that said he is definitely the starting SS or 2B come opening day, as he should be.
Out of the MI group of Dozier, Carroll, Casilla, Escobar, Floriman etc Dozier by far is the best in house candidate of the bunch. Even if the Twins somehow trade for a good SS/2B or sign one in FA Dozier still gets first crack at starting at the other MI position, and probably holds it down.

FWIW: I have always been a bit skeptical of Dozier, but I think he can be a solid 3-4 year stop gap at SS/2B and could see him hitting for a .750 or so OPS in the mahors.

jorgenswest
08-05-2012, 12:12 AM
It is far too early to know if Dozier will grow as a player. It takes an investment of over 1000 plate appearances. The Twins were wise to bring him up early this year at 25. He will soon enter the peak years of his career and the struggle at the major league level will help. Often players struggle early. AAA can not prepare players for major league pitching.

If he can defend well enough at SS, he should be able to develop his bat into a regular SS through age 30. More should be expected from a bat at 2B. I think that is where Casilla is limited. The Twins don't believe in his glove at SS and he doesn't have the bat for 2B. I don't think Dozier has the bat for 2B either. Starting SS or utility is where he fits best.

jokin
08-05-2012, 12:26 PM
So your point is the Twins need to add high-performing or solid vets at SS, 3B & several starting pitchers? I think that means they either need to spend a lot this offseason or trade away prospects for more solid, albeit expensive guys? Is that what you're saying?

I guess if that's the bigger view, then I can see why you would be dissatisfied with Dozier.

I'll add one thing: the Twins have a bigger view too, and it involves developing minor leaguers. Even if they had another $50M payroll, I think plugging in players like Dozier would be a priority or them. They feel strongly that is part of their mission.

No, that ship has sailed. It was in response to another poster who was glad to enter the Dozier era and finally leave the Hardy era behind. Given the time horizon for the vets in their peak years, having Hardy still in place, a more established, but not necessarily too expensive 3B signed, and priority given over the last two years in upgrading the SP staff would have been expensive, but with proper stewardship and trades, not another $50M expensive. Perhaps Dozier could have rounded out that lineup nicely at 2B as the Twins made runs this year, 2013 and 2014.

At that point, beginning, perhaps in 2014, after a couple of title runs, the developed minor leaguers could have begun to fulfill the bigger picture and begun to take their rightful spots at the right time in their development for a quick rebuild.

Dilligaf69
08-05-2012, 01:14 PM
If I were to list the top 5 problems on the Twins Dozier would be 5...he'll be fine I believe.

greengoblinrulz
08-05-2012, 01:21 PM
Im 100% in that I dont value errors anymore as official scoring is horrendous throughout the majors. I am a UZR guy (understand some dont like it) & he is not the worst fielding SS in majors according to that. Does he need to improve, yes...definately. Think some are forgetting how bad the SS play was last yr.....Dozier has NOT been in that class of poor play.
Offensively, hes just a rookie. People forget how bad Ben Revere was last yr. How bout Trevor Plouffe or even the MVP Morneau. Even this yrs MVP Mike Trout hit only .220 last yr. Give him the year & see what happens next yr. Shown decent HR power (prob a 10/15 guy) & sb speed (prob a 15/20 guy). Thing that bothers me is he was such a patient walk orientated hitter in minors but only 12bb this yr in 77gms

Alex
08-05-2012, 02:00 PM
. AAA can not prepare players for major league pitching.



I don't disagree totally, but you'd think that if he'd have hit at AAA.

Alex
08-05-2012, 02:11 PM
Im 100% in that I dont value errors anymore as official scoring is horrendous throughout the majors. I am a UZR guy (understand some dont like it) & he is not the worst fielding SS in majors according to that. Does he need to improve, yes...definately. Think some are forgetting how bad the SS play was last yr.....Dozier has NOT been in that class of poor play.
Offensively, hes just a rookie. People forget how bad Ben Revere was last yr. How bout Trevor Plouffe or even the MVP Morneau. Even this yrs MVP Mike Trout hit only .220 last yr. Give him the year & see what happens next yr. Shown decent HR power (prob a 10/15 guy) & sb speed (prob a 15/20 guy). Thing that bothers me is he was such a patient walk orientated hitter in minors but only 12bb this yr in 77gms

Rookies struggle at the plate, certainly.

Morneau was a 900+ OPS hitter in the minors, Revere was a .300+ hitter at all levels, so while their early struggles are expected, it definitely wasn't surprising that they figured it out this year. Plouffe was consistent throughout the minors until he was 25 where he started crushing the ball at AAA. I very much hope Dozier turns out like Plouffe. I just don't see the evidence for it, and while Dozier's struggles don't surprise me this year, I also won't be surprised if they continue.

As for fielding, I don't have the numbers but I agree with you that errors don't tell the story. Dozier's errors in particular, though, seem to come on plays that he should make. His UZR is -2.7, though, 18th in the majors, so it's not like he's making up for his bat with his glove.

I agree he's likely the Twins starter simply by default for the next couple of years but I think in general people are a bit too optimistic about him.

birdwatcher
08-05-2012, 02:43 PM
The Twins didn't exit the "Hardy era" to enter the Dozier era. They made a decision to find an alternative for Hardy for two primary reasons:first because they didn't think he was worth the salary he would command, and second, because they thought they had a better idea named Nishioka. They came up looking like imbeciles on both counts. But jokin, you say that this was part of a bare bones budget cutting strategy on the part of the evildoers. Then how do you explain the Nishioka investment? How does that expenditure reconcile with your big conspiracy theory?

You are confused, jokin. Your conclusions are not "facts". Perhaps a little humility would help you see the difference.

Ultima Ratio
08-06-2012, 09:54 PM
Dozier is but a stop gap at this point. He's not panning out and I don't think he can become more than AAAA/AAA player. Just a replacement level player.

jokin
08-07-2012, 12:25 AM
The Twins didn't exit the "Hardy era" to enter the Dozier era. They made a decision to find an alternative for Hardy for two primary reasons:first because they didn't think he was worth the salary he would command, and second, because they thought they had a better idea named Nishioka. They came up looking like imbeciles on both counts. But jokin, you say that this was part of a bare bones budget cutting strategy on the part of the evildoers. Then how do you explain the Nishioka investment? How does that expenditure reconcile with your big conspiracy theory?

You are confused, jokin. Your conclusions are not "facts". Perhaps a little humility would help you see the difference.

Studies have shown that teams that overspend at 2B, SS and 3B tend to generally consider themselves in it to win it. The Twins have spoken loud and clear that they aren't in it, with their pocketbooks; they obviously haven't felt comfortable taking on that additional salary risk, and hence the repeated weakness in the Twins infield. The Hardy/Nishioka "imbecilic" (wow, kind of insensitive on your part?) swap, according to the reporting done at the time was obviously a double-mis-evaluation and a cost-cutting move, combined with some wacky new marketing scheme to expand the Twins brand to Asia and possibly entice another prospect or two to consider signing with the Twins. Besides this failure to refute the facts in your post, you also neglected to mention the other areas of cost-cutting which has occurred in the last few years- Valencia undeservedly and practically accidentally out of desperation handed the 3B job, the continual mess at 2B, a CF w/ a pop-gun arm and bat playing out of place in a power/corner OF spot, the cavalier annual casting off of proven relievers- only to then, out of sheer desperation, hold an open tryout in 2012 ST.

This isn't "evildoing" on the Twins part (not sure why you continue to go there), it's business decisions, right or wrong, based on risk assessment and analysis trying to meet an expected rate of return.

Wolfy
08-07-2012, 10:43 AM
I'm trying to think of a player on this team, pitchers not included, that has been worse than Dozier in an overall sense. I can't think of one.

Brock Beauchamp
08-07-2012, 10:52 AM
I'm trying to think of a player on this team, pitchers not included, that has been worse than Dozier in an overall sense. I can't think of one.

Not surprising, given that the offense has been pretty damned good all season and Dozier has been pretty damned bad.

Boom Boom
08-07-2012, 11:03 AM
I'm trying to think of a player on this team, pitchers not included, that has been worse than Dozier in an overall sense. I can't think of one.

Dozier's been lucky because the Twins are shallow in the middle infield.

If he played anywhere else the Twins would have sent him back down by now, like Danny Valencia and Clete Thomas.

TheLeviathan
08-07-2012, 11:09 AM
Dozier's been lucky because the Twins are shallow in the middle infield.

If he played anywhere else the Twins would have sent him back down by now, like Danny Valencia and Clete Thomas.

I'd argue they should have anyway. This kid has some tools that are easy to like...but jesus has he been bad.

diehardtwinsfan
08-07-2012, 11:12 AM
Dozier's been lucky because the Twins are shallow in the middle infield.

If he played anywhere else the Twins would have sent him back down by now, like Danny Valencia and Clete Thomas.

Not sure it's quite fair to compare Dozier to Valencia just yet. Valencia plays at a position where you are expected to hit, whereas Dozier does not. Dozier certainly shows some nice flashes from time to time, but he hasn't "put it together" so to speak. In his case, I think you just need to be patient. I agree that not having decent options helps, but unlike the other options, you can at least claim that there's some upside. He has a nice enough minor league track record that the Twins should be patient and see if he can turn into a .750 OPS guy, which would make him above average for his position (at the plate at least). There's no reason to think he cannot do it, but the idea that as a rookie he's going to come in and produce is somewhat unfair. That doesn't happen nearly as often as we would all like.