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John Bonnes
07-31-2012, 11:42 PM
In a (likely) ineffective attempt to short-circuit the sound of Other Voices,,,

1) I think Gardy is a good manager.
2) I think his bullpen use is usually a strength.

But how the hell do you justify tonight. I'll be honest - I'm not sure if I'm more dissappointed by his strategy, his deception, or by the media not calling him on it. And I'll admit - I could have been there and called him on it myself, so I can only be so critical of it. To recap....

The Twins entered the game in the top of the ninth tied and Blackburn was done. We found out that the top two right-handers, Burton and Burnett, were unavailable because they pitched last night. But rather than bring in Perkins, Gardenhire brought in Jeff Gray. That move is semi-defendable - the first, third and fourth hitters were all right-handed.

It didn't go well. The second batter, LHer AJ Pierzynski, hit a two-run homer that won the game for the Sox.

That's bad, but what was worse was the post game explanation. "Perkins was save only. If we pitch him any other way tonight, he's not available tomorrow."

Of course, there was no possibility of a save tonight one the game entered the 9th in a tie. And "tomorrow" Burton and Burnet would likely have been available with a day's rest. So was Perkins really unavailable? Was Gardy confused about the possibility of a save? Did he really think a possible lead tomorrow was higher leverage than a tie game tonight? Did he just think he could sneak through that 9th with a right-hander?

It's hard to say, because nobody asked.

jctwins
07-31-2012, 11:45 PM
1) Wrong
2) Wrong

Gardy isn't a good manager and he burns bullpens like nobody's business.

DPJ

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-31-2012, 11:45 PM
Honestly, it is/was in-defense-able, at this point it is best to just try to put it past us all and laugh/cry about it.

I get the idea of not throwing Perkins out there at that point, I don't think it's right but I understand his point. Perhaps he would have brought Perkins out for the 10th if they made it? Still, you gotta go with your best arm at that point regardless.

What I don't understand is why Jeff Gray is even on this roster, hopefully this was the last straw and we will see someone up from the minors soon.

70charger
08-01-2012, 12:05 AM
1) More or less agree
2) More or less agree

How is the Jeff Gray move defensible? No freakin' idea.

Honestly, I think a smart use of the bullpen would have been putting out the mini-rally the Sux had going in the 7th. And who the hell cares about tomorrow night if you can't win tonight? Cross that bridge when you come to it. At least if you win tonight, you're assured of winning the series.

Ultima Ratio
08-01-2012, 12:08 AM
You mean Butera was unavailable as well?

greengoblinrulz
08-01-2012, 12:12 AM
talked about it in another thread......altho the team always tries to win, there are games that they dont try to win.
Tonight was one. Resting Burnett/Burton/Perkins was more important than trying to win the game. Granted it was tied & not a lead but this is the way Gardy thinks.
Wish this woulda gone about 15 innings/Blackburn was knocked out in about 2 innings , so gardy really looked like a fool.
Hate the way he handles the staff/tho most of that is Rick Anderson....who I like less.

Seth Stohs
08-01-2012, 01:42 AM
I didn't like to see Gray in that situation and the end-results were not at all surprising, but I didn't have a huge problem with it. Regardless of the words chosen after the game, I agree that Burton, Perkins and Burnett have all been used too much. So for me, it came down to using Gray, Fien or Perdomo. Again, Gray's probably my third choice in that group, but he's been on the roster all year, and I don't have a problem with the manager expecting him to get outs when he puts him in.

Pius Jefferson
08-01-2012, 03:18 AM
I'm worried about Burton. Coming off major surgery, I'm starting to wonder if a quick DL stint to rest the arm wouldn't be a good idea.

old nurse
08-01-2012, 06:01 AM
If Perkind pitched the ninth who pitches the tenth, eleventh innings?

Brock Beauchamp
08-01-2012, 06:11 AM
If Perkind pitched the ninth who pitches the tenth, eleventh innings?

Who cares? Cross that bridge when you come to it.

Baseball games should not be managed for a statistic. It's that simple. The fact that Gardy actually admitted this is proof that the tail is wagging the dog. You know it won't happen but JR should have been in Gardy's office five minutes after that press conference, screaming at him about the stupidity of what he just did. You manage to win, statistics be damned.

And the best way to win is to do as good a job you can at preventing the other team from scoring late in the game.

PS. If Gardy feels Perkins has been used too much, that's fine. Go to someone else. But never, never, ever try to use an arbitrary statistic to defend an action that caused you to keep your best reliever out of a game that you subsequently lost.

gil4
08-01-2012, 07:55 AM
If Perkind pitched the ninth who pitches the tenth, eleventh innings?

The Twins did score in the bottom of the ninth, so hopefully nobody.

I know, there's no guarantee they score if it's a tie game, and there's no guarantee Perkins goes 1-2-3. I guess I've always been of the opinion that you play your best cards while you have them and let the chips fall where they may, rather than hold them for a situation that might never come.

I'd rather have perkins in a high-leverage situation than Gray. The situation in the top of the 9th and top pf the 11th are essentially the same. I would rather use Perkins forst and try to prevent a top of the 11th.

Fire Dan Gladden
08-01-2012, 08:07 AM
Who cares? Cross that bridge when you come to it.

Baseball games should not be managed for a statistic. It's that simple. The fact that Gardy actually admitted this is proof that the tail is wagging the dog. You know it won't happen but JR should have been in Gardy's office five minutes after that press conference, screaming at him about the stupidity of what he just did. You manage to win, statistics be damned.

And the best way to win is to do as good a job you can at preventing the other team from scoring late in the game.

PS. If Gardy feels Perkins has been used too much, that's fine. Go to someone else. But never, never, ever try to use an arbitrary statistic to defend an action that caused you to keep your best reliever out of a game that you subsequently lost.

Gardy has always let the save stat determine how he uses his bullpen, it is one of his bigger faults. He wouldn't pitch Burton or Perkins until the save situation came up or he had no other choice. The Save, in it's current form, is a joke. I like rewarding pitchers for excelling in high leverage situations, but starting an inning with a 3 run lead is not high leverage.

glanzer
08-01-2012, 08:07 AM
Technically if the game enters the ninth inning in a tie, there is no possible way for the home team to earn a save. Any home team lead from there on out means game over and no lead to protect. So essentially Perkins' night was over when the game went to the 9th.

JB_Iowa
08-01-2012, 08:14 AM
I could understand this move if they were testing Gray to see if he should be replaced on the roster ... but that's about the only way it makes sense.

And if Mr. Gardenhire doesn't care whether this team wins, why should the rest of us give a rat's a** about them?

Brock Beauchamp
08-01-2012, 08:15 AM
Gardy has always let the save stat determine how he uses his bullpen, it is one of his bigger faults. He wouldn't pitch Burton or Perkins until the save situation came up or he had no other choice. The Save, in it's current form, is a joke. I like rewarding pitchers for excelling in high leverage situations, but starting an inning with a 3 run lead is not high leverage.

What's baffling is that we as fans can recognize just how useless the statistic is but management of well over half of baseball can't do the same.

I thought the goal of baseball was to win games. I didn't realize it was to accumulate statistics that are completely arbitrary. Hell, even the "win" stat has more relevance than the save. Well, most of the time, anyway.

The Dread Pirate
08-01-2012, 08:26 AM
This is nothing new. Look at this beauty (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA200508160.shtml) of a boxscore from seven years ago when Gardy saved Joe Nathan for a save against the White Sox.

DPJ
08-01-2012, 08:28 AM
I don't know if I was more distubed by Gray in the 9th or sending Blackburn back out there for 7th and 8th innings.

Brock Beauchamp
08-01-2012, 08:36 AM
I don't know if I was more distubed by Gray in the 9th or sending Blackburn back out there for 7th and 8th innings.

Given the state of the bullpen, I don't really fault him for that. If Blackburn is dealing, leave him out there. God knows he'll only post a performance like that once a blue moon.

JB_Iowa
08-01-2012, 08:43 AM
Okay, this isn't really a defense of Gardenhire because as most of you know, I believe that the Twins need some significant changes on and off the field, but here's my take:

I believe that the reason Gardenhire and the Twins were able to win the Central fairly regularly over the last 10 years was that he took a "long view" at the season. More than most managers, he epitomizes "keeping an even keel". It is frequently evident in his comments (we'll get 'em next time and we battled our tails off and there's another game tomorrow). It is evident in his lineup construction (please remember the frustration many fans have had when he has failed to move "hot hitters" up in the line-up). It is evident in his BP usage (relievers have a slotted "spot" and he doesn't like to vary from that).

And for the most part it has worked in the regular season. Even now, for those of you who are optimistic and refer to the improvements you've seen this season, I think a large part of it is Gardenhire's willingness to stick with his methods even in the face of defeat.

But while it has generally made him a successful regular season manager, I've always believed that it contributed to (note I didn't say it was the reason for), the Twins downfall in the playoffs. Then, there ISN'T always another game (or at least not many). Success takes on a new urgency in the post-season and sometimes you have to be creative about what you are doing as a manager and the team needs to be able to shift gears (of course, some power pitching wouldn't hurt).

Gardenhire's use of Gray last night really wasn't anything new. And it wasn't anything different from his pattern in years past. With a little better quality BP, he may have "gotten away with it" a little more often but there were plenty of frustrating moments then, too.

Gardenhire isn't going to change ,,, the question is whether the Twins need to make one.

Thrylos
08-01-2012, 08:46 AM
Why is Gray still in the majors? Guerra has been back off the DL in Rochester. Obvious move.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-01-2012, 08:47 AM
Why is Gray still in the majors? Guerra has been back off the DL in Rochester. Obvious move.
Guerra has been garbage in AAA over the past couple months.

nokomismod
08-01-2012, 08:48 AM
John,
I agree with your 1, 2, and 3 (head scratcher from last night). I came away from last night content that the Twins didn't trade away Perkins or Burton. There are still a couple of weak links in the bullpen and hopefully those spots can be filled from within by the end of the season.

Thrylos
08-01-2012, 08:59 AM
Guerra has been garbage in AAA over the past couple months.

He pitched hurt. Now he is fine.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-01-2012, 09:29 AM
He pitched hurt. Now he is fine.
You sure? Since coming back he has pitched 3.1 IP, 3 ER, 8 H.

SweetOne69
08-01-2012, 10:57 AM
Okay, this isn't really a defense of Gardenhire because as most of you know, I believe that the Twins need some significant changes on and off the field, but here's my take:

I believe that the reason Gardenhire and the Twins were able to win the Central fairly regularly over the last 10 years was that he took a "long view" at the season. More than most managers, he epitomizes "keeping an even keel". It is frequently evident in his comments (we'll get 'em next time and we battled our tails off and there's another game tomorrow). It is evident in his lineup construction (please remember the frustration many fans have had when he has failed to move "hot hitters" up in the line-up). It is evident in his BP usage (relievers have a slotted "spot" and he doesn't like to vary from that).

And for the most part it has worked in the regular season. Even now, for those of you who are optimistic and refer to the improvements you've seen this season, I think a large part of it is Gardenhire's willingness to stick with his methods even in the face of defeat.

But while it has generally made him a successful regular season manager, I've always believed that it contributed to (note I didn't say it was the reason for), the Twins downfall in the playoffs. Then, there ISN'T always another game (or at least not many). Success takes on a new urgency in the post-season and sometimes you have to be creative about what you are doing as a manager and the team needs to be able to shift gears (of course, some power pitching wouldn't hurt).

Gardenhire's use of Gray last night really wasn't anything new. And it wasn't anything different from his pattern in years past. With a little better quality BP, he may have "gotten away with it" a little more often but there were plenty of frustrating moments then, too.

Gardenhire isn't going to change ,,, the question is whether the Twins need to make one.

100% Agree

StormJH1
08-01-2012, 11:53 AM
What's baffling is that we as fans can recognize just how useless the statistic is but management of well over half of baseball can't do the same.

I thought the goal of baseball was to win games. I didn't realize it was to accumulate statistics that are completely arbitrary. Hell, even the "win" stat has more relevance than the save. Well, most of the time, anyway.
Absolutely. Gardy's explanation is inexcusable, but it would be ignorant to pretend that he's the only manager who manages like that, or that he's even in the minority.

What's baffling to me is that managers assume, by the solve virtue of a statistic, that a 1 to 3 lead is obviously a "high leverage" situation. Yet, if you have a tie game, or maybe even a game where you're down by one and confident that you can put up another run or two, Gardy suddenly treats that situation almost the same as he would mop-up time. It makes no sense to me.

The weakness of the whole "anti-save" argument crowd tends to be that it would just have you using your best pitchers over and over again, and wearing them into the ground. But here, Gardy admitted that he had a pitcher available, but only if it was a "save" situation. In a tie game, the other team doesn't have an advantage any more than you do. If you have a better pitcher available, it makes no sense to hold them out for the 11th or 13th inning, when you won't even get there if you give up runs in the 9th. If you can't use him the following day then so be it.

greengoblinrulz
08-01-2012, 11:59 AM
agree that certain manager/teams style of 'whole season' is good & Twins were able to capitalize on it in a weak decade long division, but he totally is overmatched when it comes to winning ONE certain game or series.
Again, comes down to NOT doin everythin you need to win the game. Other things were more important. In a 100 loss season, who cares.....but fans.

snepp
08-01-2012, 12:55 PM
Hell, even the "win" stat has more relevance than the save.

"Win" stat > Jeff Gray



Oops, wrong thread. :p

Mayhem25
08-01-2012, 01:30 PM
I saw Gray on the mound and immediately turned the channel to watch the US Women Gymnastics team win the Gold...only because I "knew" what the result of him pitching would be. Well, had a hunch at least.

mike wants wins
08-01-2012, 02:02 PM
I look forward to the day when coaches and managers in all sports understand strategy and tactics better, and when taking chances will be rewarded, not punished. Lots of interesting reads online about why most innovation in sports happens at the high school level, and not the professional levels.

drjim
08-01-2012, 10:15 PM
I had no problem with how Gardy used his pen. Obviously you try to win every game but what is the point of blowing out a pitcher at this point of the season? Burnett, Burton and Perkins had all pitched the previous two games. Frankly I didn't want to use any of them, and if Gardy was only going to use Perkins if the Twins were up in the 9th I don't have a big problem with that.

The issue is that his other five options were Fien, Gray, Robertson, Manship and some guy whose name I still don't know. That is more a Terry Ryan issue. I don't think Guerra needs to be called up yet until he has proven he is back healthy and effective, but probably time for Olivereros and Waldrop to be up. Fien might be worth to keep around, but no reason for Gray or guy whose name I still don't know to be here.

Kobs
08-01-2012, 10:22 PM
Okay, this isn't really a defense of Gardenhire because as most of you know, I believe that the Twins need some significant changes on and off the field, but here's my take:

I believe that the reason Gardenhire and the Twins were able to win the Central fairly regularly over the last 10 years was that he took a "long view" at the season. More than most managers, he epitomizes "keeping an even keel". It is frequently evident in his comments (we'll get 'em next time and we battled our tails off and there's another game tomorrow). It is evident in his lineup construction (please remember the frustration many fans have had when he has failed to move "hot hitters" up in the line-up). It is evident in his BP usage (relievers have a slotted "spot" and he doesn't like to vary from that).

And for the most part it has worked in the regular season. Even now, for those of you who are optimistic and refer to the improvements you've seen this season, I think a large part of it is Gardenhire's willingness to stick with his methods even in the face of defeat.

But while it has generally made him a successful regular season manager, I've always believed that it contributed to (note I didn't say it was the reason for), the Twins downfall in the playoffs. Then, there ISN'T always another game (or at least not many). Success takes on a new urgency in the post-season and sometimes you have to be creative about what you are doing as a manager and the team needs to be able to shift gears (of course, some power pitching wouldn't hurt).

Gardenhire's use of Gray last night really wasn't anything new. And it wasn't anything different from his pattern in years past. With a little better quality BP, he may have "gotten away with it" a little more often but there were plenty of frustrating moments then, too.

Gardenhire isn't going to change ,,, the question is whether the Twins need to make one.

The reason the Twins won the Central fairly regularly was because they had good pitching and the ineptitude of the rest of the division, not because of Gardy's inane platitudes.

USAFChief
08-02-2012, 03:00 AM
I had no problem with how Gardy used his pen. Obviously you try to win every game but what is the point of blowing out a pitcher at this point of the season? Burnett, Burton and Perkins had all pitched the previous two games. Frankly I didn't want to use any of them, and if Gardy was only going to use Perkins if the Twins were up in the 9th I don't have a big problem with that.

The issue is that his other five options were Fien, Gray, Robertson, Manship and some guy whose name I still don't know. That is more a Terry Ryan issue. I don't think Guerra needs to be called up yet until he has proven he is back healthy and effective, but probably time for Olivereros and Waldrop to be up. Fien might be worth to keep around, but no reason for Gray or guy whose name I still don't know to be here.

+1.

The "soft underbelly" of the Twins bullpen.

Most major league baseball games are close. It's the nature of the beast. You cannot expect to have only 2 relievers you trust in any close and late situation, and have them pitch all those innings. Over the course of a season, your entire bullpen is going to be in position to win, or lose, games. Lots of them. That's the takeaway from this game, not which one of his few trusted relievers he elected not to use.

I find it ironic that many of the same people who argue "anyone can pitch the ninth," and "relievers are the easiest thing to find," are the same people who turn around and complain about the choice of relievers to pitch the ninth inning.

Kobs
08-02-2012, 07:07 AM
I find it ironic that many of the same people who argue "anyone can pitch the ninth," and "relievers are the easiest thing to find," are the same people who turn around and complain about the choice of relievers to pitch the ninth inning.

What a load of nonsense.

Brock Beauchamp
08-02-2012, 07:19 AM
I find it ironic that many of the same people who argue "anyone can pitch the ninth," and "relievers are the easiest thing to find," are the same people who turn around and complain about the choice of relievers to pitch the ninth inning.

No, we're wondering why the best relievers on the team aren't used in the ninth during a tie game but during a 3-0 game, you toss that "bullpen ace" out there to pitch the inning.

It's completely ****ing counter to logic. Well, it is if you want to actually win close and late baseball games at a higher rate than other teams.

Twinsoholic
08-02-2012, 07:19 AM
Just compare the relievers Ventura used in the tight game with Jeff Gray. Terrible decision making by Gardy. Casey Fein has actually been the most of effective of the relievers Gardy had available. I've seen Fein pitch in several games, and he strikes guys out. What does Gray do? Gets ahead 0 and 2 and then gives up a hit to Rios, and then gets ahead 0 and 2 and gives Pierzynski a low slightly inside pitch and Whamo--a two run homer with 2 strikes. What the heck was he doing (catcher also included here)? You don't throw inside to Pierzynski--keep the ball away from him and out of the strike zone with an 0 and 2 count. Gardy is so stubborn and predictable in his "maneuvers" with relievers. I suspect more than a couple of people said to themselves "this ain't good" when they saw Gardy bring Gray into the contest.

USAFChief
08-02-2012, 12:17 PM
What a load of nonsense.

Please elaborate. I'm sure your take will be every bit as insightful as your one sentence proclamations about the futility of giving Plouffe some ABs were.

USAFChief
08-02-2012, 12:23 PM
No, we're wondering why the best relievers on the team aren't used in the ninth during a tie game but during a 3-0 game, you toss that "bullpen ace" out there to pitch the inning.

It's completely ****ing counter to logic. Well, it is if you want to actually win close and late baseball games at a higher rate than other teams.

I believe it was "reliever"--singular-- not "relievers". He had Perkins semi-available but would have preferred not to use him. Burton wasn't available. I understand the argument for Perkins, but past that, who are the other options much if any better than Gray?

For the record, Gardy has in the past used his "closer" in exactly the situation you described above at home.

I think the problem in this case is a shallow BP.

USAFChief
08-02-2012, 12:26 PM
Just compare the relievers Ventura used in the tight game with Jeff Gray. Terrible decision making by Gardy. .

Ventura used his "closer" before having a lead in the ninth?

Kobs
08-02-2012, 05:56 PM
Please elaborate.

No need.

Buck Nasty
08-02-2012, 06:34 PM
I think if you always went with the "use your best reliever" approach, it certainly would lead to a few more wins...at least at the start of the season. Of course, things would probably even out after your best relievers end up on the DL with arm problems. Other guys have to get outs. It was a tie game. Three more outs doesn't guarantee a win. I have no problem with them holding Perkins out of that game. It's a lost year and a meaningless game for us. No sense burning out Perkins arm this year.

Brock Beauchamp
08-02-2012, 09:36 PM
I think if you always went with the "use your best reliever" approach, it certainly would lead to a few more wins...at least at the start of the season. Of course, things would probably even out after your best relievers end up on the DL with arm problems. Other guys have to get outs. It was a tie game. Three more outs doesn't guarantee a win. I have no problem with them holding Perkins out of that game. It's a lost year and a meaningless game for us. No sense burning out Perkins arm this year.

You're right, Gardy shouldn't burn out Perkins.

But if Glen pitched a few less 3-0 games just so he can rack up a worthless statistic, maybe he'd be available for a few more of those tie games in the ninth.

Perkins could have made the difference just two days ago but he was only "available for a save".

So he pitches two innings tonight in what was a 5-0 yawner.

Explain how that makes sense in any world.

Top Gun
08-02-2012, 09:43 PM
Gardy wanted the win! no lead is safe at Fenway.

Buck Nasty
08-02-2012, 10:07 PM
You're right, Gardy shouldn't burn out Perkins.

But if Glen pitched a few less 3-0 games just so he can rack up a worthless statistic, maybe he'd be available for a few more of those tie games in the ninth.

Perkins could have made the difference just two days ago but he was only "available for a save".

So he pitches two innings tonight in what was a 5-0 yawner.

Explain how that makes sense in any world.

But doesn't the fact that Gardy used him tonight in a non-save situation go against the theory of only using Perkins when he can pad his save totals? I just look at is as all the guys have to pitch at some point. It seems like Gardy divides up the workload by going to his "A team" (Perkins/Burton) when they have a lead. And he uses the "B-Squad" when they are tied or behind. That's just my observation - generally speaking. I'm not saying that's official policy or anything - just my observation.

USAFChief
08-02-2012, 11:12 PM
You're right, Gardy shouldn't burn out Perkins.

But if Glen pitched a few less 3-0 games just so he can rack up a worthless statistic, maybe he'd be available for a few more of those tie games in the ninth.

Perkins could have made the difference just two days ago but he was only "available for a save".

So he pitches two innings tonight in what was a 5-0 yawner.

Explain how that makes sense in any world.

Youre not really going to complain about using Perkins in the 8th of a 3-0 game with lefties due up, are you? It wasn't a "5-0 yawner" when Perkins came in the game.

Dilligaf69
08-02-2012, 11:17 PM
If they were in the race then NO way Gray pitches, other then that I don't know why and since it does'nt matter much I really won't get bent although most will because it's what they do and there is enough of them.

Dilligaf69
08-02-2012, 11:18 PM
Youre not really going to complain about using Perkins in the 8th of a 3-0 game with lefties due up, are you? It wasn't a "5-0 yawner" when Perkins came in the game.

This is what I'm talking about...everything is a criticism even when there isn't anything to criticize. Rube chat part 2!

Brock Beauchamp
08-03-2012, 06:17 AM
Youre not really going to complain about using Perkins in the 8th of a 3-0 game with lefties due up, are you? It wasn't a "5-0 yawner" when Perkins came in the game.

No, I don't have much of an issue with Perk being out there tonight, just using it as an example of a three run lead. BUT Gardenhire should have pulled Perkins from the ninth inning. Why is your best reliever out there for two innings in what is now a blowout game when just two days ago, you badly needed him but he was unavailable to pitch? I'm going to keep beating this horse until you understand my point:

It is wrong to manage for a statistic instead of a win.

Before this thread was started, here were the last four appearances of Perkins:

7/22 - 9th inning - 7-3 game
7/25 - 8th inning - 2-8 game
7/29 - 9th inning - 5-1 game
7/30 - 9th inning - 7-6 game

Is that how you want to use your best reliever? Three out of four games were junk innings, resulting in two games where he could have been used but wasn't.

Brock Beauchamp
08-03-2012, 06:17 AM
But doesn't the fact that Gardy used him tonight in a non-save situation go against the theory of only using Perkins when he can pad his save totals? I just look at is as all the guys have to pitch at some point. It seems like Gardy divides up the workload by going to his "A team" (Perkins/Burton) when they have a lead. And he uses the "B-Squad" when they are tied or behind. That's just my observation - generally speaking. I'm not saying that's official policy or anything - just my observation.

Last night was a save situation.

Brock Beauchamp
08-03-2012, 06:30 AM
This is what I'm talking about...everything is a criticism even when there isn't anything to criticize. Rube chat part 2!

Sigh. I've been incredibly consistent with this point... For almost a decade now.

Gardenhire uses his bullpen counter-intuitively and it results in more losses for the Twins. It's not a terribly difficult concept to understand.

But in all fairness, most of baseball does it as well. That doesn't make it right or smart, though, it just shows the awful groupthink that occurs in this sport.

crarko
08-03-2012, 06:34 AM
No, I don't have much of an issue with Perk being out there tonight, just using it as an example of a three run lead. BUT Gardenhire should have pulled Perkins from the ninth inning. Why is your best reliever out there for two innings in what is now a blowout game when just two days ago, you badly needed him but he was unavailable to pitch? I'm going to keep beating this horse until you understand my point:

It is wrong to manage for a statistic instead of a win.

...

I auppose if players were only a bunch of stats on paper, that would be a law of nature. But some of them are also human beings with egos, and sometimes it's useful to feed them.

Brock Beauchamp
08-03-2012, 06:47 AM
I auppose if players were only a bunch of stats on paper, that would be a law of nature. But some of them are also human beings with egos, and sometimes it's useful to feed them.

If you start off with this philosophy in the minors, players will have no issues with it. It's only after you puff them up with grandiose notions of a BS stat to they acquire that "ego".

Besides, I thought this was a team sport and that the intent was to win as many ballgames as possible. I didn't realize stat-padding and ego-stroking should get in the way of fielding the best team possible. After all, isn't that the intended message behind "Twins Baseball"? Doing the little things to push your team over the top? Why doesn't that apply here?

If the $24 million man can learn a new position in the middle of a season for the good of the team, Glen Perkins can hit the showers early in a game that is pretty much in the bag.

crarko
08-03-2012, 07:11 AM
Well I guess that settles it then. :cool:

USAFChief
08-03-2012, 07:19 AM
No, I don't have much of an issue with Perk being out there tonight, just using it as an example of a three run lead. BUT Gardenhire should have pulled Perkins from the ninth inning. Why is your best reliever out there for two innings in what is now a blowout game when just two days ago, you badly needed him but he was unavailable to pitch? I'm going to keep beating this horse until you understand my point:

It is wrong to manage for a statistic instead of a win.

Before this thread was started, here were the last four appearances of Perkins:

7/22 - 9th inning - 7-3 game
7/25 - 8th inning - 2-8 game
7/29 - 9th inning - 5-1 game
7/30 - 9th inning - 7-6 game

Is that how you want to be using your best reliever? Three out of four games were junk innings, resulting in two games where he could have been used but wasn't.

On 7/22, Perkins entered to pitch the ninth of a 7-3 game, correct. But Gray, Duensing and Burnett had pitched the day before, and Robertson, Burton, and Fien had combined for 4 innings in an 11 inning game the day before that.

The 23rd and 24th were multli-run losses, so probably no real opportunity or reason to use Perkins there. On the 23rd, Duensing and Burnett combined for 5.1 IP, and on the 24th, Robertson, Fien, Gray and Swarzak all pitched. So that probably helps explain why Perkins was used on the 25th in a blowout...someone has to pitch, and he wasn't used up, and they had an off day upcoming.

The 26th was an off day.

The 27th was an 11-0 win, complete game for Diamond.

28th was a 12-5 win, no need for Perkins, but 3 relievers were used.

On the 29th, he did pitch the 9th of a 5-1 win. Perhaps you don't need to use him there, but you've got a lead, and he hasn't pitched in 4 days. You can make a case that had he not pitched here, he might have been more available on the 1st of Aug, when the Twins lost a game that was tied in the top of the 9th. I happen to think the bigger problem is the shallow bullpen, but your point is certainly at the least arguable.

On the 30th, Perkins pitched the ninth inning of a tie game, which the Twins ended up winning in the bottom of the ninth, exactly as he should have been.

On the 2nd of August, he was used in the 8th inning of a 3 run game, on the road, with the top of the order due up, including 2 LH hitters. Not sure how that's bad. I can understand the argument to let someone else pitch the 9th after the Twins got 2 in the top half, but honestly, I'm OK with trying to nail down the win, too, and just let him finish the game.

So in your example above, I think you have one legit point...pitching him on the 29th of July, and possibly he could have only pitched 1 inning yesterday. Other than that, I think when you go back and look at the situation more closely, there are perfectly logical reasons for his usage over that time frame.

I also understand your post here is just an example, and that you feel the problem is larger than the past two weeks. Fair enough, but I would argue when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it, it's not as simple as it can be made to look.

Brock Beauchamp
08-03-2012, 07:27 AM
On 7/22, Perkins entered to pitch the ninth of a 7-3 game, correct. But Gray, Duensing and Burnett had pitched the day before, and Robertson, Burton, and Fien had combined for 4 innings in an 11 inning game the day before that.

The 23rd and 24th were multli-run losses, so probably no real opportunity or reason to use Perkins there. On the 23rd, Duensing and Burnett combined for 5.1 IP, and on the 24th, Robertson, Fien, Gray and Swarzak all pitched. So that probably helps explain why Perkins was used on the 25th in a blowout...someone has to pitch, and he wasn't used up, and they had an off day upcoming.

The 26th was an off day.

The 27th was an 11-0 win, complete game for Diamond.

28th was a 12-5 win, no need for Perkins, but 3 relievers were used.

On the 29th, he did pitch the 9th of a 5-1 win. Perhaps you don't need to use him there, but you've got a lead, and he hasn't pitched in 4 days. You can make a case that had he not pitched here, he might have been more available on the 1st of Aug, when the Twins lost a game that was tied in the top of the 9th. I happen to think the bigger problem is the shallow bullpen, but your point is certainly at the least arguable.

On the 30th, Perkins pitched the ninth inning of a tie game, which the Twins ended up winning in the bottom of the ninth, exactly as he should have been.

On the 2nd of August, he was used in the 8th inning of a 3 run game, on the road, with the top of the order due up, including 2 LH hitters. Not sure how that's bad. I can understand the argument to let someone else pitch the 9th after the Twins got 2 in the top half, but honestly, I'm OK with trying to nail down the win, too, and just let him finish the game.

So in your example above, I think you have one legit point...pitching him on the 29th of July, and possibly he could have only pitched 1 inning yesterday. Other than that, I think when you go back and look at the situation more closely, there are perfectly logical reasons for his usage over that time frame.

I also understand your post here is just an example, and that you feel the problem is larger than the past two weeks. Fair enough, but I would argue when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it, it's not as simple as it can be made to look.

Well, it's always the small things. One game here, another there... If Perkins doesn't pitch that junker on the 29th, he's available for the 31st and the Twins probably win that game. But hindsight is 20/20. When Gardy threw Perkins out there for three junkers in a row, he didn't know what was going to happen the next day. He got lucky until it bit him in the ass on the 29th when Perkins was badly needed. What did Gardy do? He showed his true thinking by saying Perkins was only available for a save. The complete opposite of what a manager should be thinking in that situation.

Gardy isn't a horrible bullpen manager. That's not my point. He's just not very good at it and he too readily subscribes to the current baseball thinking, even though studies have shown for years that the system is broken and it not only doesn't contribute to more wins but actually might decrease overall win totals of a team.

In a franchise that hammers its fan base to death with "doing the little things" and "Twins Baseball", this polar-opposite approach to the bullpen is maddening. I don't understand why this issue hasn't been addressed when it's painfully obvious that it could benefit the team over the course of a season. Why do we yammer on and on about "hitting the cutoff man", "taking the extra base", blah blah blah but give the team a pass on one of its more egregious oversights?

Buck Nasty
08-03-2012, 07:30 AM
Last night was a save situation.

I was actually referring to bringing Perkins in during the 8th (hold situation) vs. saving him specifically for a typical 9th inning save situation. It's pure speculation on my part, but I doubt Gardy would have sent him back out for the 9th to get the save if he hadn't breezed through the 8th with only 10 pitches. In that instance, Gardy did exactly what you wanted him to do - used his best reliever in a close game outside of 9th inning save spot.

Brock Beauchamp
08-03-2012, 07:34 AM
I was actually referring to bringing Perkins in during the 8th (hold situation) vs. saving him specifically for a typical 9th inning save situation. It's pure speculation on my part, but I doubt Gardy would have sent him back out for the 9th to get the save if he hadn't breezed through the 8th with only 10 pitches. In that instance, Gardy did exactly what you wanted him to do - used his best reliever in a close game outside of 9th inning save spot.

Absolutely. It was the right move in the 8th. If Gardy keeps doing that, I'll probably even back off my complaints about his bullpen management a bit.

But this thread isn't only about last night. It's about an overall trend where Gardenhire consistently values the save more than the win. He'd deny it vehemently but all you have to do is look at his actions and his statements to know it's true, even if he doesn't realize it. By buying into that statistic's importance so completely, he has sacrificed team wins in the process.

And as fans of the team, we should be calling him out for it.

USAFChief
08-03-2012, 07:38 AM
Absolutely. It was the right move in the 8th. If Gardy keeps doing that, I'll probably even back off my complaints about his bullpen management a bit.

But this thread isn't only about last night. It's about an overall trend where Gardenhire consistently values the save more than the win. He'd deny it vehemently but all you have to do is look at his actions and his statements to know it's true, even if he doesn't realize it. By buying into that statistic's importance so completely, he has sacrificed team wins in the process.

And as fans of the team, we should be calling him out for it.

IMO it's just the oppostie. Gardy values the "W" for a pitcher more than the "S," and often the "W" for a pitcher more than the "W" for the team. I don't usually have much problem with Gardy's bullpen mgt, but damn if I don't get pissed when he leaves a struggling starter in to try to get through the 5th, just so's he qualifies for a "W," when everyone and his mother can see the guy should no longer be in the game. He's openly admitted doing that in the past.

That to me is a bigger issue, and one of the few things that bothers me about his pitching staff mgt on a consistent basis.

As always, YMMV.

Brock Beauchamp
08-03-2012, 07:42 AM
IMO it's just the oppostie. Gardy values the "W" for a pitcher more than the "S," and often the "W" for a pitcher more than the "W" for the team. I don't usually have much problem with Gardy's bullpen mgt, but damn if I don't get pissed when he leaves a struggling starter in to try to get through the 5th, just so's he qualifies for a "W," when everyone and his mother can see the guy should no longer be in the game. He's openly admitted doing that in the past.

That to me is a bigger issue, and one of the few things that bothers me about his pitching staff mgt on a consistent basis.

As always, YMMV.

At least with trying to stretch out a starter for a little longer than he should, Gardy is also trying to save the pen, which helps the team over the long run. That doesn't necessarily make it right but it does make it a little more understandable. But your point is correct... The "Win" (as opposed to "team win", which was how I was using it) statistic is just another statistic that has little impact on how well the team played or that it was used effectively.

On the other hand, valuing the save statistic makes no sense for anyone other than the pitcher who gets to rack up saves. It does not contribute to the overall team's success at all.

Top Gun
08-03-2012, 08:15 AM
The manager got to be a fan of the player too and the player gets paid for saves. just look at Mo & Paps.

Brock Beauchamp
08-03-2012, 08:59 AM
The manager got to be a fan of the player too and the player gets paid for saves. just look at Mo & Paps.

I'm pretty sure the manager is paid to win games first and foremost.

And I'm sure the Phillies are delighted that Papelbon has locked down a mighty 23 games for them this season while they compete for last place.

Top Gun
08-03-2012, 09:23 AM
That's baseball, the manager got to see the young players hit the cutoff man, throw to the right base, put out the fires, learn to pitch 7 or8 innings or they won't be around long to make the big bucks and so is life.