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Nick Nelson
07-31-2012, 11:25 PM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?863-Trade-Flatline

James Richter
08-01-2012, 12:08 AM
...no trade is better than a bad trade.
After watching Bill Smith over the last few years, nobody should understand that better than Twins fans.

greengoblinrulz
08-01-2012, 12:14 AM
just get ready for TRyan to talk about the Aug waiver trades that can be made......am/was a fan of his the first run, but just think the game 'may' have passed him by. Conservative approach/not lovin youth combo is gonna leave this franchise in ruins

LastOnePicked
08-01-2012, 12:31 AM
There's always the element of what we couldn't see during the negotiations, but I don't begrudge fans for worrying that the same brain trust/scouting crew who brought us Nishioka might not have had a good sense of what offers included truly good ballplayers. With a bit of a prospect logjam in the outfield, trading an outfielder wouldn't likely have hurt the future, and it seems odd that no one was offering value for Span or Willingham. Fans have lost trust in the Twins FO, and for very good reasons.

BrentMpls
08-01-2012, 12:41 AM
the same brain trust/scouting crew who brought us Nishioka

For what its worth, I heard Ryan on the radio a few weeks back talking specifically about the scouting process for Nishi, saying that when 'they' went back to the tapes, 'they' still see a guy that they want and feel confident about the offer that was made. For whatever reason that guy never made the trip across the ocean.

Clearly it was a huge failure, but it was interesting to hear that comment.

BrentMpls
08-01-2012, 12:45 AM
It stinks to see the trend of getting nothing for the players the team deals continue, but in the case with Liriano I don't think there was much more that could be done. And its amazingly bad timing that Pavano and especially Capps go down on the DL when they did.

The stinkage continues as the thing I think everybody wants to feel (I know I do) is that the club is making moves to turn things around, even if its holding out hope on some solid A and AA prospects, but so far nothing has really happened since 99 losses outside of Willingham. Doumit and Carroll have been great too, but they are temporary fixes that play multiple positions. We need to have people locked down in their roles, and, obviously, get some pitching. Now the wait for possible waiver moves begins, but I wouldn't count on that too much - I think winter meetings is the next likely step for a possible move in the right direction. Thats a long time to wait for the chance of a hope that maybe 2014 wont be terrible. Tough times.

Mchans24
08-01-2012, 01:07 AM
I guess the game passed him by when he signed Willingham, burton, Doumit and carrol?

Moistache
08-01-2012, 01:46 AM
I'm sure the Sox fans will have as much fun with Frankie as we've had the last several years (poor souls). As fun as it is to witness Liriano's (rare) glorious moments, I can't believe how many fans forget his countless, grotesque starts (his most recent for the Twins, a shining example).

Considering that our offense (which had a pathetic April) is currently 6th in the league in both hits and OBP, I'm guessing that this is one of the more potent units we've had in some time (if only we can improve on our "clutch"). It's understandable to be a bit optimistic about our chances in the near future for these reasons. In addition, our overtaxed bullpen (currently 3rd in innings pitched amongst all league bullpens) is cheap and decent. There is nothing worse than going all in on a bullpen guy (Fuentes, Capps).

It's far easier to focus exclusively on starting pitching in the offseason as opposed to trying to replenish lost position players that are both competent and cap-friendly (Morneau/Mauer aside), in addition to starting pitching. Writing off Liriano, Pavano, Capps, and Bakes gives us at least some wriggle room to sign 2 actual pitchers this offseason.

Top Gun
08-01-2012, 02:15 AM
It's a bull**** excuse and you know it. They could have sign Liriano long ago. If Span and Willy arn't wanted they could trade Buxton and Hicks. Parmelee instead of Justin. They can't even move a infielder for crying out loud!

Seth Stohs
08-01-2012, 02:27 AM
I guess the game passed him by when he signed Willingham, burton, Doumit and carrol?

Yeah, this concept that Terry Ryan (or Mike Radcliff or the Twins scouts) are in over their heads and the game has passed them by is really a weak one. The game is the same. The scouting is the same. What they're looking for is the same. These guys are good, and they get the game and how it works to incredible detail. I have full confidence in Terry Ryan and Mike Radcliff. I don't know if they will be able to bring a World Series title, because that isn't something that's predictable, but I have full confidence that they'll get the Twins back to competing for division titles and into the playoffs, and once in the playoffs, see what happens.

I just think that teams are so not willing to deal prospects, even for really good players. Ryan fully understands the need to build from within to sustain success, and so do all the other GMs.

Brock Beauchamp
08-01-2012, 06:23 AM
It's a bull**** excuse and you know it. They could have sign Liriano long ago. If Span and Willy arn't wanted they could trade Buxton and Hicks. Parmelee instead of Justin. They can't even move a infielder for crying out loud!

Buxton was drafted less than two months ago. He can't be traded for over ten more months.

But hey, we shouldn't let those pesky rules get in the way of making completely nonsensical moves that destroy the franchise long-term.

twinswon1991
08-01-2012, 06:26 AM
Yeah, this concept that Terry Ryan (or Mike Radcliff or the Twins scouts) are in over their heads and the game has passed them by is really a weak one. The game is the same. The scouting is the same. What they're looking for is the same. These guys are good, and they get the game and how it works to incredible detail. I have full confidence in Terry Ryan and Mike Radcliff. I don't know if they will be able to bring a World Series title, because that isn't something that's predictable, but I have full confidence that they'll get the Twins back to competing for division titles and into the playoffs, and once in the playoffs, see what happens.

I just think that teams are so not willing to deal prospects, even for really good players. Ryan fully understands the need to build from within to sustain success, and so do all the other GMs.


I think the game has changed considerably and Ryan/Radcliff will need to adjust big-time to be successful. You hit the nail on the head that teams are no longer willing to give up top prospects for good middle relievers or average big league bats. Because of this, the successful teams are the ones that draft and develop. Pulling off some good trades and strong international signings supplement the draft/develop aspect. It seems that the Twins have done a very poor job the last 10 years drafting and developing and now that they can't find a stupid GM to give them great MiLB prospects for their vets I hope TR realizes that he/they need to do a much better job drafting/developing than they have over the last 10 years or the franchise will be the new/old Pirates.

mk
08-01-2012, 07:51 AM
Totally agree with "no trade is better than a bad trade." Remember Johan Santana, Matt Garza, J.J. Hardy, Wilson Ramos, etc?

Fire Dan Gladden
08-01-2012, 07:55 AM
Finally an article on the front page showing a little bit of reason. So many ignorant overactions to the FO and the perceived lack of activity or intelligence.

MWLFan
08-01-2012, 08:00 AM
You have to love over reaction Wednesday. The day when the message boards whip around more then a tilt a whirl ride at the state fair with a three 17 year old boys in it. Very few moves made at the trade deadline make much of a difference in the scope of a season, some actually hurt a team. Frankie is gone, if most people had heard that this trade had been made two months ago I think they would have been giddy that we stuck the White Sox with him and got a couple of warm bodies in return. In typical former "Franchise" mode he rattled off some good games and made our ADD fan base forget how bad he truely was and how that really lead to the awful season we are stuck in right now. As far as the other "trades" not happening, as the Stones remind us Time is on our Side. Sano, Buxton, Rosario and company will not be ready for a couple more years so the arms can come in this winter to join them in A or AA ball or if we are lucky maybe join Hicks and Arcia in AAA. Does this mean we will be in the crapper next year too, maybe. But it takes awhile to rebuild a baseball system, more so then a football or basketball team. Different beasts. Chill folks. 2012 was not going to get better and 2013 can still be improved upon in the winter.

JB_Iowa
08-01-2012, 08:00 AM
there's one very important point to keep in mind: no trade is better than a bad trade.

When there's nothing good to talk about, I guess we can always resort to platitudes .... and while this is correct, it's not much comfort.

Fire Dan Gladden
08-01-2012, 08:16 AM
You have to love over reaction Wednesday. The day when the message boards whip around more then a tilt a whirl ride at the state fair with a three 17 year old boys in it. Very few moves made at the trade deadline make much of a difference in the scope of a season, some actually hurt a team. Frankie is gone, if most people had heard that this trade had been made two months ago I think they would have been giddy that we stuck the White Sox with him and got a couple of warm bodies in return. In typical former "Franchise" mode he rattled off some good games and made our ADD fan base forget how bad he truely was and how that really lead to the awful season we are stuck in right now. As far as the other "trades" not happening, as the Stones remind us Time is on our Side. Sano, Buxton, Rosario and company will not be ready for a couple more years so the arms can come in this winter to join them in A or AA ball or if we are lucky maybe join Hicks and Arcia in AAA. Does this mean we will be in the crapper next year too, maybe. But it takes awhile to rebuild a baseball system, more so then a football or basketball team. Different beasts. Chill folks. 2012 was not going to get better and 2013 can still be improved upon in the winter.

Voices of reason? Posting comments?? Where is all the fire and brimstone?

When the Twins a strong in a couple of years, I hope that all the naysayers will post videos on Youtube eating crow. (But I know they won't).

sorney
08-01-2012, 08:17 AM
No gnews is good gnews says Gary Gnus.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-01-2012, 08:57 AM
It's a bull**** excuse and you know it. They could have sign Liriano long ago. If Span and Willy arn't wanted they could trade Buxton and Hicks. Parmelee instead of Justin. They can't even move a infielder for crying out loud!
Lol yes, let's trade a top prospect like Hicks for the hell of it, or Parmelee who has next to zero value since he doesn't get any major league playing time.

That will fix things!

savvyspy
08-01-2012, 09:15 AM
It's a bull**** excuse and you know it. They could have sign Liriano long ago. If Span and Willy arn't wanted they could trade Buxton and Hicks. Parmelee instead of Justin. They can't even move a infielder for crying out loud!

"No trade is better than a bad trade" is the weakest defense of this mess. By definition when you are the worst team in the majors doing nothing is malpractice. You can't be worse than this team is from a pitching and player development standpoint. You can't continue to say we aren't going to do anything at the trfade deadline because we're afraid we're going to make a bad trade then turn around and say signing free agents is "chasing your tail" like Ryan said yesterday.

This is nothing but incompetence. Pure and simple.

Brock Beauchamp
08-01-2012, 09:19 AM
"No trade is better than a bad trade" is the weakest defense of this mess. By definition when you are the worst team in the majors doing nothing is malpractice.

If this was 2011, I'd completely agree with you. The Twins were sitting on a handful of departing free agents and did very little with any of them until the waiver deadline.

This season was different. There was Liriano and that's it. The rest of the team (non-DL edition) is signed through multiple seasons. There wasn't a good reason to make trades if teams weren't willing to part with equitable value. Those players will still be available to trade this offseason or next July.

Fans need to take a deep breath and realize that baseball franchises are not fixed overnight. The Twins are not the Cubs, loaded with bad contracts and departing players. Their tradable assets are valuable and signed long-term. The front office needs to get value from them and if other teams aren't willing to give back good players in return, you hold onto those assets until the market is in your favor.

savvyspy
08-01-2012, 09:19 AM
Voices of reason? Posting comments?? Where is all the fire and brimstone?

When the Twins a strong in a couple of years, I hope that all the naysayers will post videos on Youtube eating crow. (But I know they won't).

But I want to know what your definition of "when the Twins are strong" is. If you are talking about winning playoff series and going to a World Series then I will gladly eat crow on Youtube. If you are talking about patching together a team that edges the Tigers at the end of the season to win the weakest division in baseball and gets swept by the Yankees, then we don't agree on what a "strong" baseball team is.

TheLeviathan
08-01-2012, 09:32 AM
I would say at least with some of these guys "trading just to trade" isn't quite accurate. There are very valid reasons why dealing Span, Willingham, and Burton now would have been prudent. We probably won't know until the word gets out about what was offered, but those three have significant red flags about sustaining their current pace. If we got offers anywhere near a "sell high" value we may have made a serious mistake holding on to them.

gunnarthor
08-01-2012, 10:33 AM
Of all the non-moves yesterday, I'm most disappointed that we didn't move Burton. Span has been pretty consistent when healthy and Willingham's contract is so good that it didn't make sense trading him unless someone overpaid.

But Burton is a bit of journeyman having a career year and the Twins have a bunch of potential bullpen arms (heck, it might help Hendriks to pitch out of the pen for a month before starting again, ala Santana or Liriano). I know he's cheap but it would have been nice if he could have brought back something. Oh well, I expect Ryan will make some offseason moves.

nicksaviking
08-01-2012, 10:43 AM
I just think that teams are so not willing to deal prospects, even for really good players. Ryan fully understands the need to build from within to sustain success, and so do all the other GMs.

But the other GM's learned this FROM Ryan. Early this century, the Twins were always hailed as the model franchise of building from within and not giving away your top guys for rentals. Now every other GM has pretty much adopted the same philosophy and Ryan has lost his advantage when it comes to this stratagy.

DPJ
08-01-2012, 10:54 AM
But the other GM's learned this FROM Ryan. Early this century, the Twins were always hailed as the model franchise of building from within and not giving away your top guys for rentals. Now every other GM has pretty much adopted the same philosophy and Ryan has lost his advantage when it comes to this stratagy.

NTM the drafting and development of players has taken a nose dive.

boney
08-01-2012, 10:59 AM
I understand not making a trade yesterday if the offers weren't there but I don't want to hear the same thing after this offseason. At the end of the day it's not about how much you tried to get something done. Terry Ryan has shown this year that he can still find a bargain, what he has to prove next is that he can still make a deal. I don't want to see a trade just for the sake of a trade but I would like to know that I have a GM/front office of a bad team that can take advantage of guys like Span,Perkins, and Willingham being at their peak value.

old nurse
08-01-2012, 11:18 AM
I understand not making a trade yesterday if the offers weren't there but I don't want to hear the same thing after this offseason. At the end of the day it's not about how much you tried to get something done. Terry Ryan has shown this year that he can still find a bargain, what he has to prove next is that he can still make a deal. I don't want to see a trade just for the sake of a trade but I would like to know that I have a GM/front office of a bad team that can take advantage of guys like Span,Perkins, and Willingham being at their peak value.

Print a copy of Nygard's top 50 prospects. In a few years see where the players are at. You can trade players for prospects, but will they develop into better players than what you had? In the meantime you have to field a team. A competitive team is preferable to an outfield with Hosken Powell and Willie Norwood. If they had traded outfielders, there would not be adequate replacements. Two years from now maybe. Perkins might be replaceable but I don't think there was even a b type player offered. The current minor leagues have plenty of c players in the lower levels.

Nick Nelson
08-01-2012, 11:24 AM
I would say at least with some of these guys "trading just to trade" isn't quite accurate. There are very valid reasons why dealing Span, Willingham, and Burton now would have been prudent. We probably won't know until the word gets out about what was offered, but those three have significant red flags about sustaining their current pace. If we got offers anywhere near a "sell high" value we may have made a serious mistake holding on to them.

There's some truth to this point but the thing to keep in mind is that the pressure to trade at the deadline was not on the Twins it was on the teams they were talking to. If the desperation of loading up for the stretch run didn't prompt opposing GMs to overpay, then there's little harm in waiting. It's possible the value of guys like Willingham and Burton will drop significantly in the next two months but probably not.

Brock Beauchamp
08-01-2012, 11:29 AM
There's some truth to this point but the thing to keep in mind is that the pressure to trade at the deadline was not on the Twins it was on the teams they were talking to. If the desperation of loading up for the stretch run didn't prompt opposing GMs to overpay, then there's little harm in waiting. It's possible the value of guys like Willingham and Burton will drop significantly in the next two months but probably not.

Yep. The Twins were in a position of power this deadline and it takes two to tango. If the other side of the table isn't willing to offer up quality for quality, you hold on to your assets. They're the ones who are in a position of weakness and have an immediate need to improve, not the Twins. The Twins can hold on to their chips for another day when conditions are more favorable.

Would anyone here have been happy with what the Giants gave up for Pence? I sure wouldn't. What they gave up wasn't much more than what the Twins got for Liriano.

StormJH1
08-01-2012, 11:30 AM
I really don't think the Twins are alone in this delusion - the media and even well-informed bloggers (and blog posters) buy into it also. The "delusion" I'm talking about is that players on a last-place team with pedestrian (or worse) numbers garner significant trade interest around the league. I realized this the past few days in two examples. First, I was listening to Mad Dog Radio on Sirius, and he basically ran through all of the MLB teams for possible trade activity. Yeah, it's Mad Dog shooting from the hip, and it wasn't particularly researched or pre-prepared. But he got through about four or five other outfielders on the market (including Pence and Victorino), and when he got to the Twins he said "they don't have anyone you'd really WANT". That may be an overly simplistic view, but I think that was the prevailing wisdom. Span could help a lot of clubs, but he was never as desirable as some of the other names being openly shopped. Plus, Terry Ryan didn't really want to move him (and I do like him as a Twin, this was never about him personally).

The second moment was when I turned on the Liriano game last night and FSN North put his stats up. His record was something like 3-10 with an ERA in the mid 5.00's. Now, we as Twins fans remember what he was in '06, how he came back in 2010, and how he's been one of the best pitchers in the AL for short stretches this year. But when you put that all together and put up numbers like THAT, and then remember that you're trading a rental, not even the full player, should we really be surprised he didn't draw even a "B" level prospect? Probably not.

Now, I do think that guys like Willingham and, to a lesser degree, Morneau, Burton, and Perkins might have had some degree of value to other teams (and were not rentals). But I'm not at all surprised that TR didn't see enough value to move any of those guys, even though I'm sure there were offers. I can't "fault" him for making that decision, but it's frustrating when you hear TR reiterate over and over that he doesn't really believe in free agency, and doesn't seem to believe in the trade deadline either...yet the team continues to slide.

jokin
08-01-2012, 11:31 AM
NTM the drafting and development of players has taken a nose dive.

And the identification and acquisition of players in trade and FA- as well, conversely misidentifying the value of those already in the org, has taken largely a turn to the crapper, as well:

1) Nishioka
2) Marquis
3) Young
4) Capps
5) Ramos
6) Thome (Twins got $20,000, Phillies got 2 prospects)
7) Garza
8) Lohse
9) Dickey (has been a mainstay SP for the Mets since Twins tendered him in 09)
10) Santana
11) Hardy
12) Hoey
13) Thinking that the opening day 2012 SP core staff was, at best, anything close to MLB-average-level.

johnnydakota
08-01-2012, 11:47 AM
just get ready for TRyan to talk about the Aug waiver trades that can be made......am/was a fan of his the first run, but just think the game 'may' have passed him by. Conservative approach/not lovin youth combo is gonna leave this franchise in ruins

didnt bill smith deffer all trades and transactions to his advisor? terry ryan....and isint this the same guy who claimed we were not in a rebuilding year but competing for the title?
isnt this the same guy who traded jim thome for 20,000 dollars then 1 year later the phillys got baltimores #3and #8 prospect ?
isnt this the guy that got go-go for 2 time cy young winner johan santana?
terry ryan has not made 1 good trade ever , he did make 1 lucky trade in aj ....terry ryan felt and stated boof bonser was the key player in that trade...and he has lived on that 1 trade since..
terry ryans drafts always comes down to this "who can we draft that will take less money? who is hurt? who has slipped in the rankings?
terry ryan and radke need to go along with the rest of the 3 stooges and the @ss clown posse....they draft soft tossing controll pitchers ...why? they are cheaper to sign ....
they draft toolsly outfielders why cheaper to sign .....they draft hurt players,why they are cheaper to sign....

time for new blood new leadership and maybe a new owner....

boney
08-01-2012, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=old nurse;41116]Print a copy of Nygard's top 50 prospects. In a few years see where the players are at. You can trade players for prospects, but will they develop into better players than what you had? In the meantime you have to field a team. A competitive team is preferable to an outfield with Hosken Powell and Willie Norwood. If they had traded outfielders, there would not be adequate replacements. Two years from now maybe. Perkins might be replaceable but I don't think there was even a b type player offered. The current minor leagues have plenty of c players in the lower levels.

I'm not saying that they need to move every tradeable player, and of course prospects (like every other sport) are just prospects until proven otherwise, and I understand the whole field a competitive team idea but this team has to figure out who they are and that is one of the 3 worst teams in the league for the last year and a half. IMO, it's going to be very easy for this org to fall into the trap of wanting to find bargain type players to stay competitive but they still won't have the pitching. As much as I appreciate TR I also remember the 90s

TheLeviathan
08-01-2012, 12:30 PM
There's some truth to this point but the thing to keep in mind is that the pressure to trade at the deadline was not on the Twins it was on the teams they were talking to. If the desperation of loading up for the stretch run didn't prompt opposing GMs to overpay, then there's little harm in waiting. It's possible the value of guys like Willingham and Burton will drop significantly in the next two months but probably not.

I may have muddled my point a bit - I don't disagree that we need a willing partner to pull this off. None of us know what was or wasn't on the table yet. But I am not so confident in JR that I would dismiss the idea that we left worthy offers on the table. Yes Pence fetched garbage but Broxton damn near fetched gold. I wouldn't endorse trading for the sake of it but I also don't endorse placing such a high value that nothing but absurdity is good enough. I want to believe we'd have jumped at one of those Cincy specs but I just don't have confidence in that.

If Hammer stays healthy he might still have this value in the offseason but I can't believe Burton will ever have been this valuable again. We will probably be able to look back in a year and know for sure, but it sure feels like we just whiffed on selling high again.

Loosey
08-01-2012, 12:37 PM
Of all the non-moves yesterday, I'm most disappointed that we didn't move Burton. Span has been pretty consistent when healthy and Willingham's contract is so good that it didn't make sense trading him unless someone overpaid.

But Burton is a bit of journeyman having a career year and the Twins have a bunch of potential bullpen arms (heck, it might help Hendriks to pitch out of the pen for a month before starting again, ala Santana or Liriano). I know he's cheap but it would have been nice if he could have brought back something. Oh well, I expect Ryan will make some offseason moves.

I agree with you in theory, but in actuality what sort of return would Burton bring? He's a bullpen arm having a career season with a history of injuries. I'd rather keep the solid bullpen arm than take a middling double A reliever they'd get in return.

snepp
08-01-2012, 12:44 PM
Burton, as a "non-closer" with limited back-to-back days usage, likely wouldn't have significant value. I'd rather keep him around on the cheap for next year than deal him away for a pittance.

diehardtwinsfan
08-01-2012, 12:49 PM
didnt bill smith deffer all trades and transactions to his advisor? terry ryan........

really, where did you hear this?

Brock Beauchamp
08-01-2012, 01:27 PM
didnt bill smith deffer all trades and transactions to his advisor?

In a word, no.

So the rest of your post is kind of pointless.

RIP BYTO
08-01-2012, 02:31 PM
didnt bill smith deffer all trades and transactions to his advisor? terry ryan....and isint this the same guy who claimed we were not in a rebuilding year but competing for the title?
isnt this the same guy who traded jim thome for 20,000 dollars then 1 year later the phillys got baltimores #3and #8 prospect ?
isnt this the guy that got go-go for 2 time cy young winner johan santana?
terry ryan has not made 1 good trade ever , he did make 1 lucky trade in aj ....terry ryan felt and stated boof bonser was the key player in that trade...and he has lived on that 1 trade since..
terry ryans drafts always comes down to this "who can we draft that will take less money? who is hurt? who has slipped in the rankings?
terry ryan and radke need to go along with the rest of the 3 stooges and the @ss clown posse....they draft soft tossing controll pitchers ...why? they are cheaper to sign ....
they draft toolsly outfielders why cheaper to sign .....they draft hurt players,why they are cheaper to sign....

time for new blood new leadership and maybe a new owner....

I agree. If you take away the AJ trade from TR's resume what do you have left? He's a bum for a GM.

diehardtwinsfan
08-01-2012, 02:48 PM
He's plucked quite a bit of talent through obscure trades. Buchanan, who he later flipped for Bartlett, Ortiz, etc. The AJ trade made him famous, but it wasn't as if he got lucky. He's done it before.

TheLeviathan
08-01-2012, 06:06 PM
Burton, as a "non-closer" with limited back-to-back days usage, likely wouldn't have significant value. I'd rather keep him around on the cheap for next year than deal him away for a pittance.

My caution is this - just because we didn't do something doesn't mean we made the right decision. I prefer to think that we got crappy offers, but what the Reds gave up for Broxton (a guy with plenty of red flags himself) indicates that there was at least some willingness to shell out. Burton's best value was likely to be at the deadline, that doesn't mean we got an offer we should have taken (none of us know that), but just because we held him doesn't necessarily mean we got bad offers.

We may find out that we passed on some deals we'll later regret. Or we may find out we were right to just hang on to these guys. Our track record the last 5 years of sell low and buy high makes me very skeptical of that reaction.

nicksaviking
08-01-2012, 08:24 PM
I agree. If you take away the AJ trade from TR's resume what do you have left? He's a bum for a GM.

I haven't defended Ryan much lately but he needs some defense here. There was already another thread showing how the Knoblauch trade is still paying dividends. Bobby Kielty for Shannon Stewert was a great trade, Dave Hollins for David Ortiz was a shrewd move as was Roberto Kelly for Joe Mays. He traded Rick Aguilera to the Red Sox and got two prospects back knowing full well that Aguilera was going to re-sign with the Twins in the offseason.

You'd get little arguement that recent moves have been poor, but that's mostly due to inactivity. He has seemed to be gunshy which may have led to the indecisiveness and no/poor returns with the Hunter and Santana exits, but he certainly does have more than just one positive trade under his belt.

mike wants wins
08-01-2012, 08:45 PM
I have no idea on the answer, just trying to get a sense of what Ryan has done before, but other than the big trade, how many trades has he made where he got a guy that contributed for 3-5 years? I recall the Stewart trade with fondness, for example, but that was mostly short term. Also, how often has he traded a big time prospect for big time MLB player? I think that one is zero. I would expect his trends to continue....just trying to understand what they are.

RIP BYTO
08-01-2012, 09:07 PM
I haven't defended Ryan much lately but he needs some defense here. There was already another thread showing how the Knoblauch trade is still paying dividends. Bobby Kielty for Shannon Stewert was a great trade, Dave Hollins for David Ortiz was a shrewd move as was Roberto Kelly for Joe Mays. He traded Rick Aguilera to the Red Sox and got two prospects back knowing full well that Aguilera was going to re-sign with the Twins in the offseason.

You'd get little arguement that recent moves have been poor, but that's mostly due to inactivity. He has seemed to be gunshy which may have led to the indecisiveness and no/poor returns with the Hunter and Santana exits, but he certainly does have more than just one positive trade under his belt.

I'll give you the Kielty trade, but I can't give him any credit for Ortiz. He basically told Ortiz to take a hike and we all know what happened after that. Joe Mays? LOL nope!. Don't even know who he got for Aggy. His poor moves far out way his good moves in my opinion.

TKGuy
08-01-2012, 10:39 PM
My gosh, people need to step away from the edge, it's going to take a couple of years