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View Full Version : I propose a motion to ban using the cliche "pitch to contact"



nokomismod
07-31-2012, 01:05 PM
Is anyone else tired of this term (Pitch to Contact) being used to describe bad pitching or used to negatively describe pitchers with a low k rate? Good pitching does not necessarily mean a high strike out ratio or the ability to blaze a fastball like Kenny Powers. I think we all agree the Twins are lacking in good starting pitching right now and I don't think there is a Pitch to Contact conspiracy to blame for it. Just a bunch of starters (Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Perkins, Liriano) who didn't end up being as good as Twins Mgmt and many fans (me included) thought they would be.
Sorry about the rant.

Nick Nelson
07-31-2012, 01:07 PM
The Twins have an abundance of pitchers who allow a great deal of contact. They also have a lack of high-caliber pitching in their organization. Sorry, but the two facts are not unrelated. I think complaints about coaches preaching the PTC philosophy are over the top, but their tendency to target pitchers with low K-rates is tiresome.

James
07-31-2012, 01:11 PM
Can we replace it with "Pitch to Collision"?

Brock Beauchamp
07-31-2012, 01:16 PM
Can we replace it with "Pitch to Collision"?

Or, in the case of Blackburn, "Pitch to Outfielders" or "Pitch to Seats".

nokomismod
07-31-2012, 02:29 PM
Or, in the case of Blackburn, "Pitch to Outfielders" or "Pitch to Seats".

Touche'!

nokomismod
07-31-2012, 02:30 PM
Can we replace it with "Pitch to Collision"?
I like this better. Or Pitch to explosion.

Shores, Esq
07-31-2012, 02:31 PM
So a word filter is in order then?

DPJ
07-31-2012, 02:32 PM
So a word filter is in order then?

I wish, TD is too cool for word filters.

buckshot4227
07-31-2012, 02:42 PM
Power pitchers with high strike out rates get paid more. That is why the Twins dont have any power arms in their rotation. Same goes for power bats. Usually a guy who hits 30 bombs, but only hits for a .260 avg still gets paid more than a guy who hits .300 plus but only hits 6 hrs unless your name is Joe Mauer. IMO that is why the Twins draft these fast, weak hitting, avg hitters, because you should be able to retain them on the cheap.

DPJ
07-31-2012, 02:45 PM
Power pitchers with high strike out rates get paid more. That is why the Twins dont have any power arms in their rotation. Same goes for power bats. Usually a guy who hits 30 bombs, but only hits for a .260 avg still gets paid more than a guy who hits .300 plus but only hits 6 hrs unless your name is Joe Mauer. IMO that is why the Twins draft these fast, weak hitting, avg hitters, because you should be able to retain them on the cheap.

In the grand scheme of drafting and developing players, I can't imagine any team is really thinking about what's gonna happen 6 years after he debuts in the majors if they can retain him.

Highabove
07-31-2012, 02:46 PM
Leather to Wood

Pre 1980 Horsehide to Wood

College Leather to Aluminum

nokomismod
07-31-2012, 02:47 PM
Just saying that continuously complaining about our "pitch to contact" philosphy and demanding the Anderson and Gardenhire be fired because of it gets old. Just like complaining about Mauer's contract.
I don't think Anderson or the other Twins pitching coaches want their pitchers to leave the ball waist high over the middle.

DPJ
07-31-2012, 02:51 PM
I don't think Anderson or the other Twins pitching coaches want their pitchers to leave the ball waist high over the middle.

Now there is something to be said about that comment. If Gardy and Rick didn't want these crap tossing control arms then I assume they would go to the Twins Front office and demand power arms. If worrying less about walks and more about strikeouts was something they wanted they would say something. But for the better part of the last 20 years, these have been the arms that the Twins have targeted and identified in the draft. So I have a hard time believing that these crappy control pitchers aren't exactly what Rick and Gardy want.

nokomismod
07-31-2012, 02:52 PM
In the grand scheme of drafting and developing players, I can't imagine any team is really thinking about what's gonna happen 6 years after he debuts in the majors if they can retain him.
Agreed. I could see maybe drafting based on health. College or high school pitchers with a high K rate might be throwing more sliders and high heat and tend to break down sooner than a location pitcher with a good mix.

mikeee
07-31-2012, 02:56 PM
I prefer pitcher of beer. :D

buckshot4227
07-31-2012, 03:16 PM
In the grand scheme of drafting and developing players, I can't imagine any team is really thinking about what's gonna happen 6 years after he debuts in the majors if they can retain him.



Could you explain your theory on why the Twins never have any power arms, and how it seems that all the pitchers that come through the organization all seem to be cut from the same cloth?

buckshot4227
07-31-2012, 03:19 PM
In the grand scheme of drafting and developing players, I can't imagine any team is really thinking about what's gonna happen 6 years after he debuts in the majors if they can retain him.

Also you could explain the lack of power bats that come through the organization if you have time.

IdahoPilgrim
07-31-2012, 03:59 PM
Is anyone else tired of this term (Pitch to Contact) being used to describe bad pitching or negatively describe pitchers with a low k rate? Good pitching does necesarrily mean a high strike out ratio or the ability to blaze a fastball like Kenny Powers. I think we all agree the Twins are lacking in good starting pitching right now and I don't think there is a Pitch to Contact conspiracy to blame for it. Just a bunch of starters (Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Perkins, Liriano) who didn't end up being as good as Twins Mgmt and many fans (me included) thought they would be.
Sorry about the rant.

I can share your sentiment. There is a difference between "pitching to contact" and just plain bad pitching. Unfortunately, the Twins are all too often guilty of the later. Good "pitch to contact" pitchers may not have high K rates, but they also don't have high opp. batting averages. They locate their pitches well and pitch intelligently so that when contact is made it is much more likely to be an out than a base hit. That means not throwing cookies belt high over the center of the plate. Personally I prefer that type of pitcher - they are the ones that are going to have career longevity, whereas the power pitcher who can't do this will start getting hit hard once they get older and a few mph comes off the fastball (Nolan Ryan being the notable exception, of course).

gil4
07-31-2012, 04:14 PM
I prefer pitcher of beer. :D


Our pitching and large quantities of beer do seem to go together, but it would be nice to get to the point where one to celebrate is enough.

nokomismod
07-31-2012, 04:25 PM
Yes, thank you sbknudson. That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

Brock Beauchamp
07-31-2012, 04:34 PM
Also you could explain the lack of power bats that come through the organization if you have time.

This myth really needs to die. In the past 12+ years, the Twins have produced Hunter, Morneau, Kubel, and Cuddyer. Right now, they have Arcia and Sano in the minors along with fringe power bats in Benson and Hicks.

But the power arms comment is completely legitimate.

whydidnt
07-31-2012, 04:34 PM
I'll stop using the term as soon as the Twins stop utilizing the philosophy. It is relevant because it's a statistical fact that pitchers with that have a high ratio of strikeouts/walks perform better than those that don't AND those with a good ratio that strikeout a lot of players perform even better. The Twins have refused to acknowledge this for years, despite the fact that it's been proven over and over again. Even prior to the draft this year Ryan was quoted as saying he didn't care if they drafter strike out pitchers, he just wanted pitchers that can get outs. Sounds like a great theory, but the more times the ball is put in play the more times bad things can happen. The math proves it and the Twins ignoring that isn't going to change things. There are always going to be some guys that have sufficient command, sink etc. to pitch well despite a high strikeout rate, but the odds are stacked against that type of player. Why anyone would want to build their staff around guys who have to overcome not only the umpires, but also their own defense, as well as the luck of where the ball lands is beyond me.

DPJ
07-31-2012, 04:54 PM
Could you explain your theory on why the Twins never have any power arms, and how it seems that all the pitchers that come through the organization all seem to be cut from the same cloth?

Cause that's who the Twins target, it's not anything new. The Twin front office wants pitchers who mix pitches, work quick and throw the ball over the plate. It's what the front office wants, it's what Gardy & Rick want...it's that simple.

As for the bats, as RP points out they've produced a damn fine lot of hitters over the last 10+ years. Yes right now the cupbroads are dry, but they've had a pretty good run with producing productive hitters.

Rivas#1Fan
07-31-2012, 07:06 PM
Instead of throwing away the phrase, "pitching to contact" why not reuse it in other ways. For example, no longer will someone be "cruisin' for a bruisin'," instead they'll be "pitching to contact."

Bark's Lounge
07-31-2012, 07:52 PM
If I had my druthers, I would refer to "pitch to contact" pitchers as "Fluffers".