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View Full Version : Law: "The White Sox got a steal in Liriano"



Thrylos
07-31-2012, 12:21 PM
The whole article is here (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=law_keith&id=8217463&_slug_=analyzing-trade-deadline-deals-involving-travis-snider-brad-lincoln-brandon-league-mlb)and requires subscription, but here is what he has to say about the deal:


The Chicago White Sox (http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/_/name/chw/chicago-white-sox) got a steal in Francisco Liriano (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/_/id/6211/francisco-liriano) by agreeing to pay his salary, sending the Twins two fringe prospects in utility infielder Eduardo Escobar (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/_/id/30272/eduardo-escobar) and middle reliever Pedro Hernandez (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/_/id/32040/pedro-hernandez).

So the only people who like the deal so far are people who think Ryan can do no wrong...

70charger
07-31-2012, 12:23 PM
So the only people who like the deal so far are people who think Ryan can do no wrong...

Because Law said it? Wow. Good reasoning.

DPJ
07-31-2012, 12:23 PM
Keith Law hates the insert your favorite team, ofcourse he would say that.

Brock Beauchamp
07-31-2012, 12:24 PM
So the only people who like the deal so far are people who think Ryan can do no wrong...

There are people who like the deal? Where? I haven't seen any.

I've seen a lot of "mehs" and "damn, that's all they could get?" but very few statements of positivity about the trade.

jokin
07-31-2012, 12:28 PM
There are people who like the deal? Where? I haven't seen any.

I've seen a lot of "mehs" and "damn, that's all they could get?" but very few statements of positivity about the trade.

C'mon RP, while there haven't been necessarily positive things said, the excuse factory is working overtime.

gunnarthor
07-31-2012, 12:29 PM
Ah yes, the kool aid people. -sigh- You know, for the number of factual mistakes you post, you probably should take a break for a while.

Sickels on the trade- "This may not seem like a great haul for Liriano, but given his very erratic track record, this package or something like it is probably the best the Twins could hope for."

Baseball America: "A free agent after the season, Liriano's wildly-fluctuating results made it unlikely that the Twins would have made him the qualifying contract offer necessary to receive draft pick compensation. So while neither Hernandez nor Escobar project to be future impact players, each possesses at least one plus tool and can help the Twins in their organizational rebuild. That's certainly better than nothing."

Liriano has the ability to rip off 7 good starts out of his next ten. It's a worth while gamble and a couple C prospects aren't that high of a price to make if you're wrong. That's why the trade is good from the White Sox side. If he implodes, they don't have any future obligation to him. I'm pretty sure that's Klaw's point. He isn't saying the Twins should've gotten more for Liriano, he's suggesting that it's a worthy gamble by Chicago.

twinswon1991
07-31-2012, 12:29 PM
I wish Terry Ryan in my fantasy league. It is always nice having the clueless manager you can fleece at any time. I'm sure that is how other MLB execs view TR.

Brock Beauchamp
07-31-2012, 12:33 PM
C'mon RP, while there haven't been necessarily positive things said, the excuse factory is working overtime.

You mean excuses like "Liriano hasn't been very good for a very long time and that marginalized his value?"

No team in their right mind was going to loot the farm for a player like Francisco. The only thing I didn't understand about the trade was why JR accepted that deal when Francisco could have made another start. Of course, his value could have dropped even lower after that start so there's a gamble there, too.

This was just a crappy situation. I don't fault JR for not bringing home the farm when there were better pitching options out there to be had. I only question whether he should have waited two days and I doubt that would have made much of a difference overall.

jokin
07-31-2012, 12:34 PM
Ah yes, the kool aid people. -sigh- You know, for the number of factual mistakes you post, you probably should take a break for a while.

Sickels on the trade- "This may not seem like a great haul for Liriano, but given his very erratic track record, this package or something like it is probably the best the Twins could hope for."

Baseball America: "A free agent after the season, Liriano's wildly-fluctuating results made it unlikely that the Twins would have made him the qualifying contract offer necessary to receive draft pick compensation. So while neither Hernandez nor Escobar project to be future impact players, each possesses at least one plus tool and can help the Twins in their organizational rebuild. That's certainly better than nothing."

Liriano has the ability to rip off 7 good starts out of his next ten. It's a worth while gamble and a couple C prospects aren't that high of a price to make if you're wrong. That's why the trade is good from the White Sox side. If he implodes, they don't have any future obligation to him. I'm pretty sure that's Klaw's point. He isn't saying the Twins should've gotten more for Liriano, he's suggesting that it's a worthy gamble by Chicago.

Is trading deadline day a holiday? They're apparently working on double-time rates today.

greenland on the map
07-31-2012, 01:02 PM
I guess after trading away Santana, Garza, Hardy, and Delmon, it is hard to realize that it is possible to end up on the better side of a deal. Sickels, BA, and other fellows on this board rationalizing that this trade was not the Challenger disaster does not make me feel any better.

drjim
07-31-2012, 03:58 PM
I guess after trading away Santana, Garza, Hardy, and Delmon, it is hard to realize that it is possible to end up on the better side of a deal. Sickels, BA, and other fellows on this board rationalizing that this trade was not the Challenger disaster does not make me feel any better.

Luckily you didn't mention one trade that Terry Ryan made.

Even Bill Smith made some trades that worked out - Pavano, Rauch, Diamond to name three.

drjim
07-31-2012, 04:01 PM
It is possible to agree with Law and still not be critical of Terry Ryan. Though that might cause some serious disruptions to your worldview.

The one argument I can hear is that they should have let Liriano make one more start instead of accepting that package. But if he goes 7 ip, 2 r, 8 ks, I really don't think it would have made a difference in his value. The downside was much greater (injury for one).

diehardtwinsfan
07-31-2012, 04:19 PM
I wish Terry Ryan in my fantasy league. It is always nice having the clueless manager you can fleece at any time. I'm sure that is how other MLB execs view TR.

Before stepping down the last time, Ryan had quite the reputation for being a shrewed trader. Brian Sabean certainly won't be calling him again.

mike wants wins
07-31-2012, 04:28 PM
Ryan did have that reputation, but outside of the one really big one, I think most had impacts for a season or so. While good trades, it is hard to think of ones that really brought in a long term asset.

As for this trade, meh. Liriano could help the Sox, but the Twins were not going to re-sign him, so they got something for him. Just like Young last year. While none of the 4 prospects excite me, it is better than nothing, imo. So I give this one a B-.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-31-2012, 04:37 PM
Of course it is a good trade for the White Sox, they didn't give up any premium prospects and in return got a guy who could bolster their rotation.

Just like the Rangers trade, they got a guy who helps the rotation without giving up anyone they will miss. Though the Cubs didn't "lose" the trade since they got a couple decent prospects back.

That doesn't mean Ryan got fleeced or anything, it just means that the White Sox made a nice trade for themselves. You think the Indians are crying years later about the Pavano trade? Do we really think we "fleeced" them good when we gave up Pino for Pavano?

Fire Dan Gladden
07-31-2012, 04:48 PM
I also read the Klaw article. My takeaway was more that it was worth the gamble for the Sox to take. Costing them some money and and few low level prospects for the possibility of some good starts down the stretch.

Klaw was wrong about one thing though. He mentioned that, if anything, Liriano would help them to manage innings down the stretch. I wonder if he realizes that even at his best, Liriano only typically gives you six innings due to high pitch counts...

one_eyed_jack
07-31-2012, 04:53 PM
So the only people who like the deal so far are people who think Ryan can do no wrong...


---Actually, it's more the case that the only people still complaining about this deal are the ones who think Ryan can do no right.

The rest of us were at worst mildly disappointed but not terribly surprised that we didn't get more and have moved on from talking about the trade, because it really isn't that big a deal.

birdwatcher
07-31-2012, 05:06 PM
thrylos, you just can't help yourself, can you? You'll never be honest enough with yourself to see the reality, which is that most of us can in fact find both positive AND negative things. It's called fairness. Try it some time. Just once.

fatbeer
07-31-2012, 05:36 PM
Liriano is like an NBA player who scores a lot of points but doesn't play defense, he looks like a lot of the all-star types but in reality isn't as valuable as a kyle Loshe. If he gets you to the 7th inning giving up 1 run and making batters look silly you can have no more confidence he won't give up at least 3 as you would going into the game. Wins might have more to do with your offense then anything else, but losses tend to reflect a pitcher.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-31-2012, 05:50 PM
Liriano is like an NBA player who scores a lot of points but doesn't play defense, he looks like a lot of the all-star types but in reality isn't as valuable as a kyle Loshe. If he gets you to the 7th inning giving up 1 run and making batters look silly you can have no more confidence he won't give up at least 3 as you would going into the game. Wins might have more to do with your offense then anything else, but losses tend to reflect a pitcher.

7 Quality starts in 17 starts this season. Not good.

johnnydakota
07-31-2012, 05:50 PM
I wish Terry Ryan in my fantasy league. It is always nice having the clueless manager you can fleece at any time. I'm sure that is how other MLB execs view TR.


amen

Rosterman
07-31-2012, 06:08 PM
Either Liriano helps Chicago to the Playoffs, or he implodes and blows the Sox chances bigtime. A pretty big either/or.

He could pitch for the Twins and keep us from looking at others who may/may not do just as good for a team on the downside of the division. Hell, if Liriano went 10-1 for the Twins the rest of the way, the only person he is helping is Liriano.

He is not going to resign with the Twins, period. Why? The Twins have sent him to the minors and played with his service time. They sent him to the bullpen. They didn't sign him longterm (like Baker or Blackburn). Anywhere would be better than Minnesota for Liriano in 2013 unless the Twins would pay stupid money, which they never offered.

We got someone to take the place of Alexi or Toshi or Carroll in 2012. We got a pitcher that might have some end-of-the-rotation upside for 3-4 years and perform as adequately as Liriano ahs the past 3-4 years. (Or he might need Tommy John, too).

We see tonight if he helps the Sox or just fills a hole in their rotation.

But if the Twins thought he was worth 3 years and $24 million, or $30 million or $36 million -- that time ahs come and gone.

Of course, if he implodes, the Twins could pay him $8-10 a year if no one else lines up. But I wouldn't bet the house on that.

If you are a bottom team, you get rid of pending free agents in July and August. You try to package 6-year minor league guys to other teams for 3-4 year prospects. You get rid of potentally high-priced arbitration players for possible prospects. That is what you do.

Bojangles
07-31-2012, 06:17 PM
---Actually, it's more the case that the only people still complaining about this deal are the ones who think Ryan can do no right.

The rest of us were at worst mildly disappointed but not terribly surprised that we didn't get more and have moved on from talking about the trade, because it really isn't that big a deal.
/thread

by jiminy
07-31-2012, 06:35 PM
Ryan had quite the reputation for being a shrewed trader.

Actually I don't think he got shrewed THAT bad...

ashburyjohn
07-31-2012, 06:53 PM
... because it really isn't that big a deal.

No pun intended, I trust.

Clyde
07-31-2012, 07:30 PM
You think the Indians are crying years later about the Pavano trade? Do we really think we "fleeced" them good when we gave up Pino for Pavano?

Not fleeced, but Pavano's 17-10 in 2010 is far better than anything Pino has done. Unfortunately another team did not overbid for his services for 2011.

When the people on this board start saying that Liriano would be worth 12 million a year, then they can complain about the Liriano trade. If you were not going to sign him, you have to get what you can. Look at the other traded pitchers. Rodriguez, Maholm and Dempster reach eturned more for their teams than Liriano did. There is more of an upside to Liriano than those players. Is that upsiide going to show up for the playoffs? The other pitchers on as bad or worse teams were at least .500 or better pitchers. Liriano could not even do that. That is why there was little market for Liriano.

70charger
07-31-2012, 10:45 PM
---Actually, it's more the case that the only people still complaining about this deal are the ones who think Ryan can do no right.

The rest of us were at worst mildly disappointed but not terribly surprised that we didn't get more and have moved on from talking about the trade, because it really isn't that big a deal.

Boom. Done. (Say it in Piven's voice, it makes more sense.)

But seriously, I'm okay with the Sux picking him up. Liriano is never good late in the season. He will be lucky if he's worth a single game over replacement the rest of the way...

Dilligaf69
07-31-2012, 10:53 PM
How long we gonna beat this horse????? It's over get over it! Of course you would have liked to get a better haul but Cisco's inconsistency prevented the Twins from getting more. He simply wasn't worth that much.

Fire Dan Gladden
08-01-2012, 08:01 AM
How long we gonna beat this horse????? It's over get over it! Of course you would have liked to get a better haul but Cisco's inconsistency prevented the Twins from getting more. He simply wasn't worth that much.

Because otherwise people would have to discuss the Vikings. Do they really want to go there?

ashburyjohn
08-05-2012, 05:45 PM
How long we gonna beat this horse?????

I just wish Terry Ryan had tried a little harder to get more in return.

Rosterman
08-05-2012, 05:56 PM
A wake-up call to Francisco. He better pitch darn good down the stretch. It seems no one really wanted him or would offer much for him. He may be the free-agent bargain of the of-season.

minn55441
08-05-2012, 05:58 PM
Just so you don't have to look it up. Frankie's line today against the Angels.

No decision, but the white sox came away with the win.
5 innings, 4 hits, 1 BB, 4 K's and an Earned run. 72 pitches total.

drjim
08-05-2012, 06:05 PM
Just so you don't have to look it up. Frankie's line today against the Angels.

No decision, but the white sox came away with the win.
5 innings, 4 hits, 1 BB, 4 K's and an Earned run. 72 pitches total.

Left game with a thigh bruise.

drjim
08-05-2012, 06:06 PM
I just wish Terry Ryan had tried a little harder to get more in return.

What else would you have had him do?

The only other option could have involved him waiting for one more start before moving him, but I think it is doubtful it would have made a difference. This was his value.

greengoblinrulz
08-05-2012, 07:00 PM
For me, its the Escobar part of the deal.
A marginal defensive minded SS when we already have a AAA version of that in Pedro Florimon.
If they woulda recieved 2 pitchers back, I woulda been better. I just didnt want a Nick Punto type back

glunn
08-05-2012, 07:37 PM
Possibly Ryan may plan to use some of these players as trade bait over the winter to get more pitchers.

Hammond2ndHome
08-05-2012, 08:26 PM
For all of you who think the return for Liriano was weak, would you have been satisfied with what the Cubs got for Dempster? (Class A 22 year old pitcher w good numbers and a 21 year old Class A OF, I think).

Dempster was 5-5 w/ a 2.25 ERA when dealt.

notoriousgod71
08-05-2012, 09:06 PM
Possibly Ryan may plan to use some of these players as trade bait over the winter to get more pitchers.


At least the precedence has been set. We should be able to get Liriano for those two.

drjim
08-05-2012, 09:59 PM
For all of you who think the return for Liriano was weak, would you have been satisfied with what the Cubs got for Dempster? (Class A 22 year old pitcher w good numbers and a 21 year old Class A OF, I think).

Dempster was 5-5 w/ a 2.25 ERA when dealt.

Cubs did get better prospects, but it wasn't a huge haul (it was a 3B instead of an OF).

Goldstein ranked the 43 prospects that were traded, ranked the Cubs guys for Dempster as #8 and #15. Pedro Hernandez was #23. Escobar was no longer a prospect, but probably would have been mid-teens.

Dempster had more value than Liriano so these returns seem about right.

ashburyjohn
08-05-2012, 11:04 PM
What else would you have had him do?

Sorry, thought my joke was obvious - I was beating the dead horse. No, I'm sure Ryan didn't leave some better deal on the table.

DJSim22
08-05-2012, 11:18 PM
For me, its the Escobar part of the deal.
A marginal defensive minded SS when we already have a AAA version of that in Pedro Florimon.
If they woulda recieved 2 pitchers back, I woulda been better. I just didnt want a Nick Punto type back

Exactly. I've been saying this since the trade.

USAFChief
08-06-2012, 03:23 AM
Traded Liriano to the White Sox, with Chicago coming to town.

Traded Valencia to the Red Sox, while in Boston.

Obviously, Ryan didn't care about the return, he was only interested in saving air fare.







I kid, I kid...

JB_Iowa
08-06-2012, 08:40 AM
Traded Liriano to the White Sox, with Chicago coming to town.

Traded Valencia to the Red Sox, while in Boston.

Obviously, Ryan didn't care about the return, he was only interested in saving air fare.







I kid, I kid...

Not sure who the Twins might want from Cleveland but I'll be thrilled if TR can pry away some pitching when TB comes to town.

TheLeviathan
08-06-2012, 08:43 AM
We should just buy a buffet for the Indian's clubhouse tonight and hope Capps finds his way there. Then get the hell out of town.

I'm pretty sure that would qualify as an official waiver claim.

Shane Wahl
08-06-2012, 08:57 AM
Valencia brought back comparable value to Liriano (since I think Escobar is a never-will in terms of amounting to anything)!!!

StormJH1
08-06-2012, 12:32 PM
Of course it is a good trade for the White Sox, they didn't give up any premium prospects and in return got a guy who could bolster their rotation.

Just like the Rangers trade, they got a guy who helps the rotation without giving up anyone they will miss. Though the Cubs didn't "lose" the trade since they got a couple decent prospects back.

That doesn't mean Ryan got fleeced or anything, it just means that the White Sox made a nice trade for themselves. You think the Indians are crying years later about the Pavano trade? Do we really think we "fleeced" them good when we gave up Pino for Pavano?

There are two things about Liriano that I think Twins fans failed to see when talking about his trade value:

(1) Show me a year where Liriano was able to pitch into September and pitched WELL in those high-pressure games. You can't. In '08 and '09 he had August/Sept. ERA's higher than 4.50, and those were years where ended up in a Game 163. 2010 was his only post-Tommy John full season where he had an ERA under 5.00, yet he was terrible in September. And he was generally terrible in 2011, and killed us the first half of 2012. Yet the ONLY value in a trade for Liriano is his rental value down the stretch. And he's never been a big game pitcher.

(2) Liriano's season numbers for the Twins in 2012: 22 games, 17 starts, 3-10 record, 5.31 ERA, 1.44 WHIP. Yes, the K rate was excellent, but his K/BB was only 1.98, because his control sucks. If you never saw Liriano pitch, and had to evaluate picking up a guy at the deadline based on THOSE numbers, what are you expecting to get in return, ESPECIALLY for a rental?

I feel the same way about this as I did with Delmon. It sucks we couldn't flip him for real value, but at the end of the day, losing him is not the worst case scenario. The worst thing would've been for him to pitch well enough down the stretch for us to sign him, and then we exhaust our budget on a pitcher who won't make us any better next year.

70charger
08-06-2012, 12:52 PM
We should just buy a buffet for the Indian's clubhouse tonight and hope Capps finds his way there. Then get the hell out of town.

I'm pretty sure that would qualify as an official waiver claim.

I lulz'd.

Monkeypaws
08-06-2012, 01:48 PM
I lulz'd.

Me too. ;)

DPJ
08-06-2012, 01:55 PM
(1) Show me a year where Liriano was able to pitch into September and pitched WELL in those high-pressure games. You can't. In '08 and '09 he had August/Sept. ERA's higher than 4.50, and those were years where ended up in a Game 163. 2010 was his only post-Tommy John full season where he had an ERA under 5.00, yet he was terrible in September. And he was generally terrible in 2011, and killed us the first half of 2012. Yet the ONLY value in a trade for Liriano is his rental value down the stretch. And he's never been a big game pitcher.

I don't see what the hell this has to do with anything? I don't know what the **** a "big game pitcher" is but that's the least important thing/stat you could mention with Liriano.

Hey maybe some team wants Big Game Blackburn cause he pitched well in game 163 all those years ago.

DPJ
08-06-2012, 01:58 PM
1) Show me a year where Liriano was able to pitch into September and pitched WELL in those high-pressure games. You can't. In '08 and '09 he had August/Sept. ERA's higher than 4.50, and those were years where ended up in a Game 163. 2010 was his only post-Tommy John full season where he had an ERA under 5.00, yet he was terrible in September. And he was generally terrible in 2011, and killed us the first half of 2012. Yet the ONLY value in a trade for Liriano is his rental value down the stretch. And he's never been a big game pitcher.


Hey maybe some team wants Big Game Blackburn cause he pitched well in that game 163 all those years ago.

Big game...bunch of ESPN driven sh*t!!

ashburyjohn
08-07-2012, 06:56 PM
Me too. ;)

Yes. Because he's fat.

70charger
08-07-2012, 10:06 PM
Hey maybe some team wants Big Game Blackburn cause he pitched well in that game 163 all those years ago.

Big game...bunch of ESPN driven sh*t!!

You missed the point more than Michael Bay missed the point when he made "Pearl Harbor"

...and that's an awful lot, girl.

BD57
08-07-2012, 10:32 PM
What better offer for Liriano did Ryan not take? Seriously - I'd like to know ....

Pre-injury, Liriano was a world beater, someone who had "future Cy Young candidate" written all over him.

Post injury?

#1, He's not one of those pitchers who "got better" after TJ surgery. Velocity down, not nearly as dominating stuff.

#2, Wildly inconsistent. Sometimes good, sometimes "barf bag" bad. And there's really been no way of knowing which one you'd see.

#3, too often, emotionally fragile. Dominate for an inning, then unravels & couldn't get near the plate with a grenade.

The Twins were not going to invest the kind of money that would be required to get him to give up exploring free agency. There's no way, based on past performance, that they could justify that.

Which meant he was going to explore the free agent market. Where the Twins could not afford to risk spending that kind of money on him & have it turn out badly. Which means Liriano was gone at the end of this year, no matter what.

So the only real issue was "trade him for something" or "keep him around to play out the string for a team which (a) isn't going anywhere this year; and (b) won't have him on its roster next year."

When you're not in contention, trading a guy who doesn't figure in your plans for the future makes sense. If nothing else, it forces you to put someone else out there in his place ... you get to judge what you have going forward based on more than what they've done in the minors, etc.

I wish Francisco had pitched so well last year that the FO would've felt comfortable extending him. I wish he'd pitched so well this year that we'd either extend him or get a haul for him at the deadline.

Bottom line - neither of those things happened. No one was beating down our door trying to get him - perhaps in part because we had no good reason to keep him.

minn55441
08-11-2012, 07:44 PM
Ok we have to bring up the good with the bad.

3.1 innings, 7 hits, 6 earned runs on 3 walks and 5 K's.

I guess he pitches the same regardless of the uniform.

greengoblinrulz
08-11-2012, 07:52 PM
Ok we have to bring up the good with the bad.

3.1 innings, 7 hits, 6 earned runs on 3 walks and 5 K's.

I guess he pitches the same regardless of the uniform.
Pedro Hernandez tonight
6IP 7h 2er 3k
We fleeced em!!!!

gunnarthor
04-30-2013, 10:58 AM
Well, it's a year later and Mackey has an article up on this trade: Mackey: The Twins have already won the Francisco Liriano trade | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Twins (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Mackey_The_Twins_have_already_won_the_Francisco_Li riano_trade042913)

He suggests that Ryan won this trade. Ryan was more diplomatic but Mackey points out that the Twins have added a strong UI type in Escobar and Hernandez has been serviceable. Seems like we got two decent pieces for Liriano. Not a bad trade.

drivlikejehu
04-30-2013, 11:02 AM
You can get players of that quality off waivers. Happens all the time. It was still a good move by the White Sox to take the chance, and it was a low-stakes trade in any case.

SpiritofVodkaDave
04-30-2013, 11:28 AM
You can get players of that quality off waivers.

Name some?

I don't have a ton of faith in Escobar as a starter, but as a cheap UI guy he certainly has value (and saves you from spending money on a veteran)

Hernandez is pretty meh, but at least he has proven to be a decent mop up man/spot starter, which alone is better than what Liriano gave us the last couple years it seems.

drivlikejehu
04-30-2013, 11:45 AM
Name some?


Florimon?

big dog
04-30-2013, 11:59 AM
Who cares about who we got? What did we give up? A guy who cost the Sux some games down the stretch. Big deal. That alone was a win for us. Anybody who thinks the Sox won this trade, after the fact, is just looking for justifications for their pre-existing beliefs.

Just look at all the teams racing to sign Liriano once he hit free agency. The Pirates are probably already sorry.

syves
04-30-2013, 12:49 PM
I just like looking through the comments at the time of the trade. Whether or not the trade was an overwhelming success, i don't think many of the comments made at the beginning of this thread could be considered accurate at this point.

snepp
04-30-2013, 12:57 PM
I'm glad I didn't comment in this thread. I'd probably have to give myself a quadruple facepalm now.

drjim
04-30-2013, 01:14 PM
My takeaway is that no matter the facts of the situation the same group of people are going to criticize the front office.

I'm consistently amazed that people live that miserable of an existence and bring it on a message board for the whole world to share in.

ashburyjohn
04-30-2013, 01:18 PM
Florimon?

Escobar > Florimon. I was fine with going with the Florimonster to start the season, just to make sure, but the two players are demonstrating who is the better one to keep on a 40-man. This is why Florimon was available on irrevocable waivers before, and why Escobar (to my knowledge) has not been.

mike wants wins
04-30-2013, 02:07 PM
I stick by my comment. They got "meh" players for a guy they were not going to keep. B-. Sounds accurate to me. A couple of good weeks by Excobar has not changed my opinion at all.

70charger
04-30-2013, 03:20 PM
I just like looking through the comments at the time of the trade. Whether or not the trade was an overwhelming success, i don't think many of the comments made at the beginning of this thread could be considered accurate at this point.

I'm very happy with my response to this trade, in case anyone cares.

What's that? No one?


...okay.

drivlikejehu
04-30-2013, 03:46 PM
Escobar > Florimon. I was fine with going with the Florimonster to start the season, just to make sure, but the two players are demonstrating who is the better one to keep on a 40-man. This is why Florimon was available on irrevocable waivers before, and why Escobar (to my knowledge) has not been.

The Twins are the ones who have started Florimon over Escobar for the most part. But the point isn't to split hairs. Marginal guys like that are available, one way or another. The Twins got Burton for basically nothing and he's now a quality set up man. That's much more of a coup.

I wasn't against the trade at all, by the way. It's just not a correct analysis to base everything on hindsight. The White Sox knew they were taking a risk. It didn't pan out. But they gave up a couple AAAA players, who just don't have much value even if they can fill a role. Someone else just as easily could do the same thing.

IdahoPilgrim
04-30-2013, 03:48 PM
I just like looking through the comments at the time of the trade. Whether or not the trade was an overwhelming success, i don't think many of the comments made at the beginning of this thread could be considered accurate at this point.

Shame on you for reminding people of what they said last year on this topic.:)

Now watch...Liriano will go on a tear for about 6 weeks this summer and be lights out, and many of the same people will be blaming the FO for letting him get away. Then he'll fade away in late summer, as is his custom, and it will all be forgotten again.

cmathewson
04-30-2013, 03:52 PM
I'm very happy with my response to this trade, in case anyone cares.

What's that? No one?


...okay.

I care. This was a steal.....for the Twins. It is a win for the Twins scouts, who were able to look through the numbers to find a couple of hidden gems. As Reusse recently wrote, the Twins got more for Liriano than they got for Santana. I'm still not sure about that. If they had held onto Hardy, not so much. But even getting close is a great win.

ashburyjohn
04-30-2013, 04:26 PM
The Twins are the ones who have started Florimon over Escobar for the most part. But the point isn't to split hairs. Marginal guys like that are available, one way or another.

Sure, guys are available. Ones like Florimon are available via waiver. Other guys are not; Escobar so far is in that latter category. Using, as you did, Florimon as some sort of evidence that Escobar is not of value ("marginal" or whatever) is just not valid. People have been banging sticks on the ground for a while now that Escobar and Florimon are interchangeable, but the minor league record says they are not, the transactions wire says they are not, and the evidence so far this season says they are not.

diehardtwinsfan
04-30-2013, 06:40 PM
I wish Terry Ryan in my fantasy league. It is always nice having the clueless manager you can fleece at any time. I'm sure that is how other MLB execs view TR.

Before stepping down the last time, Ryan had quite the reputation for being a shrewed trader. Brian Sabean certainly won't be calling him again.

I'm glad this was my only interaction in this thread. Truth be told, it's safe to say that the Twins won if for no other reason than that they have gotten some value out of the guys they acquired, who might I add will remain on the team for many more years.

That said, I am not yet ready to call it lopsided, though if Escobar continues to do what he's doing, it likely will be at one point. I'm a bit surprised he has not gotten the every day chance just yet.