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View Full Version : Surprise: "R&R" does not work for Wimmers' elbow



Thrylos
07-29-2012, 01:11 PM
Apparently Wimmers has suffered a "setback" (https://twitter.com/RhettBollinger/status/229638774022356992) Not sure whether TJ is the next step, but add another casualty to the Twins' medical staff and the 'rest and rehab' method. This situation just cannot continue...

snepp
07-29-2012, 01:13 PM
I see that dankind was all over it.

DJSim22
07-29-2012, 01:26 PM
Does this suprise anyone? Didn't think so.

righty8383
07-29-2012, 01:33 PM
This is madening:mad:. The Twins are so stupid sometimes

greengoblinrulz
07-29-2012, 01:57 PM
someone should have to answer to the thought process in this.....have the surgery in April & be ready for next year.
If rest works, you're back in late July/Aug & pitch only a handful of innings & still dont know if it worked

FrodaddyG
07-29-2012, 02:13 PM
I see that dankind was all over it.
It's cute how many spambots Danny has following him.

DPJ
07-29-2012, 02:44 PM
This team is a joke from top to bottom and there's zero accountability for screwups throughout.

Dilligaf69
07-29-2012, 02:56 PM
He still misses all of next season if surgery was in April or August, you just don't do surgery for ache or pain.

Bark's Lounge
07-29-2012, 03:02 PM
TJ in April 2012 = Pitching in April/May 2013... TJ in August 2012 = Pitching in August/September 2013 (No minor league games after 1st week in September) Seems like a big difference to me. Partially torn UCL is not just an ache or pain.

twinswon1991
07-29-2012, 03:12 PM
Remember when TR said he was going to address the medical staff during his first presser as GM? The guy is just protecting his buddies so they can continue collecting paychecks. TR is a nice guy but at some point the Polads need to realize that this nice/cheap GM is killing this organization.

righty8383
07-29-2012, 03:14 PM
He still misses all of next season if surgery was in April or August, you just don't do surgery for ache or pain.

What??? Kyle Gibson got the surgery last September and he started pitching competitively on July 10. If Wimmers had it done in April he could've been ready to pitch by opening day next year. The Twins took at least 3 months of valuable development time from him.

And as for saying you don't do surgery for ache or pain...Yeah I am jumping to conclusions here but I'm pretty confident that the MRI is going to show no improvement on the UCL and they will eventually decide to do the surgery. Its just too predictable...

NorthwestTwinsFan
07-29-2012, 03:49 PM
Yeah, I don't think there are too many Twins fans who didn't see this coming....the medical staff has been mucking things up for years now. They need to be replaced immediately following the season....or sooner, if possible.

diehardtwinsfan
07-29-2012, 04:08 PM
He still misses all of next season if surgery was in April or August, you just don't do surgery for ache or pain.

this wasn't an ache or pain, it was a partially torn UCL that everyone and his brother said would lead to this. You do Tommy John in April, and he's pitching next year.... Now he won't be.

greengoblinrulz
07-29-2012, 04:14 PM
why ANYONE tries the 3/4month rest/rehab baffles me as I dont believe its worked for anyone. Aroldis Vizcaino of ATL was able to put it off a yr or so in 2010 & is considered a success story before he needed TJ this yr.
I dont think there is a success story of rehab, is there???

Shane Wahl
07-29-2012, 04:58 PM
Apparently Wimmers has suffered a "setback" (https://twitter.com/RhettBollinger/status/229638774022356992) Not sure whether TJ is the next step, but add another casualty to the Twins' medical staff and the 'rest and rehab' method. This situation just cannot continue...

Has anyone looked at other organizations to see the prevalence of this kind of thing with them too. It seems egregious right now, but I would like a comparison.

Thrylos
07-29-2012, 05:07 PM
Has anyone looked at other organizations to see the prevalence of this kind of thing with them too. It seems egregious right now, but I would like a comparison.

I think it might have just happened to Naftali Feliz as well. Hard to tell what happens in other organizations unless you follow all their MiLB systems. BA might have an answer :)

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 06:32 PM
I think it might have just happened to Naftali Feliz as well. Hard to tell what happens in other organizations unless you follow all their MiLB systems. BA might have an answer :)
Royals have had 6 pitchers get TJ surgery thus far this year.

I hate how long they waited on this one, but surgery should always be the last option. Let's hope Wimmers doesn't need TJ but if he does he gets it done sooner rather than later.

Thrylos
07-29-2012, 06:37 PM
Royals have had 6 pitchers get TJ surgery thus far this year.

I hate how long they waited on this one, but surgery should always be the last option. Let's hope Wimmers doesn't need TJ but if he does he gets it done sooner rather than later.


I know about the Royals. But those were right away, no R&R, right?

clutterheart
07-29-2012, 07:59 PM
:mad::confused::mad:

diehardtwinsfan
07-29-2012, 07:59 PM
I remember reading somewhere that it works 50% of the time, though I agree I haven't heard of many examples... I do know there are a couple out there, but none come to mind.

Bark's Lounge
07-29-2012, 08:10 PM
The one pitcher I can think of that was said to have rehabbed from a partially torn UCL is Takashi Saito. I read this in some article in last year or so - could not say where I read it or if it is accurate.

dklien
07-29-2012, 08:21 PM
Even if R&R works 20 per cent of the time it should be tried. A players long term health should be the deciding factor not how fast the player can come back. People here seem to be advocating immediate surgery in the case of any elbow problems. I am not excusing the Twins medical staff in any way. We continue to see players listed as day to day only to have them put on the disabled list down the road. Plouffe is a recent example but being cautious with recommending surgery is not a problem.

drjim
07-29-2012, 08:28 PM
Even if R&R works 20 per cent of the time it should be tried. A players long term health should be the deciding factor not how fast the player can come back. People here seem to be advocating immediate surgery in the case of any elbow problems. I am not excusing the Twins medical staff in any way. We continue to see players listed as day to day only to have them put on the disabled list down the road. Plouffe is a recent example but being cautious with recommending surgery is not a problem.

I agree with this. People are pretty casual in demanding surgery when it isn't them getting cut open. You are still talking about people and their lives and their potential livelihoods. Tommy John is a fairly successful surgery but its not perfect, it should always be a last resort.

I imagine there is a combination of the Twins, Wimmers, Wimmer's agent getting together and making decisions. It is entirely possible Twins wanted surgery but Wimmers wanted rehab.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 08:31 PM
Even if R&R works 20 per cent of the time it should be tried. A players long term health should be the deciding factor not how fast the player can come back. People here seem to be advocating immediate surgery in the case of any elbow problems. I am not excusing the Twins medical staff in any way. We continue to see players listed as day to day only to have them put on the disabled list down the road. Plouffe is a recent example but being cautious with recommending surgery is not a problem.

My thoughts as well, plus there really wasn't/isn't some huge rush with Whimmers, its not like he is currently accomulating Major League Service time or anything.

It sucks, but I agree, you don't want to just start cutting people open at the first sign of trouble.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 08:42 PM
Surkamp is another example of someone who had surgery delayed all season up until right now.

Thrylos
07-29-2012, 08:54 PM
I agree with this. People are pretty casual in demanding surgery when it isn't them getting cut open. .


being cautious with recommending surgery is not a problem.



It sucks, but I agree, you don't want to just start cutting people open at the first sign of trouble.

A couple of funky medical facts:

- Appendicitis pain and infection will get away with IV antibiotics (but it will happen again, unless you take care of it)
- Infected and inflamed tooth pulp and nerves would quit hurting with a round of antibiotics (but they will hurt again some time soon, unless you have a root canal).

That simple. Ligaments do not regenerate. If they are torn or partially torn, you got to do something about it. Of course, you can "rest" them and throw cortisone shots to make the inflammation and pain reduced and you can really build some scar tissue around them too... but they'll snap again and you got to do what you got to do.

About that simple.

drjim
07-29-2012, 09:51 PM
A couple of funky medical facts:

- Appendicitis pain and infection will get away with IV antibiotics (but it will happen again, unless you take care of it)
- Infected and inflamed tooth pulp and nerves would quit hurting with a round of antibiotics (but they will hurt again some time soon, unless you have a root canal).

That simple. Ligaments do not regenerate. If they are torn or partially torn, you got to do something about it. Of course, you can "rest" them and throw cortisone shots to make the inflammation and pain reduced and you can really build some scar tissue around them too... but they'll snap again and you got to do what you got to do.

About that simple.

Maybe, but "partially torn UCL" can represent a continuum of injury. If it was torn through they would have already had surgery. Obviously it is only partially torn and determined that it is possible to still pitch with the situation. If it is possible to pitch that is preferable to having surgery. The likely result is that Wimmers will ultimately need surgery, but that still doesn't mean they should rush into surgery. I also don't accept that this is solely a Twins medical staff decision.

notoriousgod71
07-29-2012, 10:16 PM
I see that dankind was all over it.

Dan O ‏@Coulrophobia7 (https://twitter.com/Coulrophobia7) @jonheymancbs (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS) in all fairness, I haven't swung a bat in a decade, and I could hit better than most major leaguers. it's not that tough.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 10:19 PM
Maybe, but "partially torn UCL" can represent a continuum of injury. If it was torn through they would have already had surgery. Obviously it is only partially torn and determined that it is possible to still pitch with the situation. If it is possible to pitch that is preferable to having surgery. The likely result is that Wimmers will ultimately need surgery, but that still doesn't mean they should rush into surgery. I also don't accept that this is solely a Twins medical staff decision.
Yup, I am more likely to agree with Dr. Jim then non Dr. Thrylos.

snepp
07-29-2012, 10:23 PM
Dan O ‏@Coulrophobia7 (https://twitter.com/Coulrophobia7) @jonheymancbs (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS) in all fairness, I haven't swung a bat in a decade, and I could hit better than most major leaguers. it's not that tough.

http://boywritesmiami.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/speechless.gif

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 10:25 PM
Dan O ‏@Coulrophobia7 (https://twitter.com/Coulrophobia7) @jonheymancbs (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS) in all fairness, I haven't swung a bat in a decade, and I could hit better than most major leaguers. it's not that tough.
That is fantastic.

TRex
07-29-2012, 10:33 PM
Why does everyone get their undies in a wad over having someone ready to go on opening day? Do you really plan on letting them pitch 150 innings after pitching 1 inning competitively the year before? I think the time table of returning in July and getting 75-100 innings in before the end of the year is a good goal. In that case, NO time was wasted by waiting.

greengoblinrulz
07-29-2012, 10:38 PM
lookin up players who intended to rehab over surgery, I found Juan Carlos Oviedo of MIA & Neftali Perez of TEX. Problem is that both just hurt/reinjured themselves in the past couple wks. Only other pitcher who shows up for rehab over surgery is Alex Wimmers!!! The list of players who quickly decided to have the surgery to get back next year was huge.
Brandon Beachy
Kyle Drabek
Daniel Hudson
Jose Contreras
Joakin Soria
Danny Duffy
Charly Morton
Tyshiosi Wade
Todd Coffey
Brian Wilson
Ryan Madsen
Scot Baker
Cory Leubke
Mike Pelphrey
Aroldys Vizcaino.....tried rehab in 2010
among others