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darin617
07-28-2012, 10:08 PM
Liriano just traded to the White Sox for 2 minor leaguers. infielder Eduardo Escobar (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/escobed01.shtml?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker&utm_campaign=Linker) and left-hander Pedro Hernandez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hernape02.shtml?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker&utm_campaign=Linker)

twinswon1991
07-28-2012, 10:11 PM
Well, the haul is better than a bag of balls.....but not by much!

What happened to trying to get a young upside arm? These are past their prime prospects with zero upside. Will add some depth at AAA I guess.

syves
07-28-2012, 10:15 PM
Why would we make a trade if we weren't going to get anything? Is Bill Smith holding Terry Ryan hostage and making decisions himself still?

twinswon1991
07-28-2012, 10:17 PM
Why would we make a trade if we weren't going to get anything? Is Bill Smith holding Terry Ryan hostage and making decisions himself still?


Just remember that while Billy was the GM he deferred all scouting and personnel moves to TR and his good ole boys. Billy is responsible for the Mauer contract and other terrible contracts but TR and the Good Ole Boys are the reason there is no talent in the organization. This trade is more of the same.

Jeremy Nygaard
07-28-2012, 10:20 PM
Well, the haul is better than a bag of balls.....but not by much!

What happened to trying to get a young upside arm? These are past their prime prospects with zero upside. Will add some depth at AAA I guess.

Not a great haul but I wouldn't go that far. Both only 23... curious how the Twins make room on 40-man...

edavis0308
07-28-2012, 10:24 PM
A no hit infielder and a very hittable lefty. Face Palm.

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 10:26 PM
So a hitter with a career minor league OPS of .666 over ~2500 PAs, and a pitcher whose walks have trended up and K's have trended down every step up the ladder until his 17 innings of AAA ball this year.

Yay?

Nick Nelson
07-28-2012, 10:27 PM
Looks like a utility guy and a reliever. Meh.

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 10:28 PM
A no hit infielder and a very hittable lefty. Face Palm.
Well, you certainly can't argue that there's no consistency in what the organization looks for.

Bark's Lounge
07-28-2012, 10:28 PM
Well, the predictions were that the Twin were going to flip him for jack **** - they were right. They could have at least traded him to the NL or at very least the AL East or West for jack ****. This cuts the cake... what a sham.

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 10:29 PM
Baseball America had Escobar as Sox 10th rated player & Hernandex as 23rd best for San Diego..before his Dec trade to Sox for Carlos Quentin.
Cant really find anything good to say

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 10:30 PM
I guess JR should have taken the Bundy/Machado offer when he had the chance.

notoriousgod71
07-28-2012, 10:31 PM
This is just laughable. No reason whatsoever to trade Liriano for this garbage.

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 10:33 PM
This is just laughable. No reason whatsoever to trade Liriano for this garbage.
Hey, what are the odds you could get the 20-something best Padres prospect with a sandwich pick?

DJSim22
07-28-2012, 10:33 PM
Just one more reason that TR no longer has it as a GM, he had his fingers all over BS's moves as well.

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 10:35 PM
Hernandez still has only made 7 appearances in AAA, 6 starts & 21gms 20 starts @ AA @ age 23.
BAmerica says he occasionally hits 95 but mostly is in low 90s but is gonna be a reliever if he's to be a major leaguer.

40 man roster wise....Luis Perdomo could be gone already

gunnarthor
07-28-2012, 10:35 PM
Escobar was ranked the Sox #8 prospect by fangraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/top-15-prospects-chicago-white-sox/)- strong glove, no bat - "CAREER OUTLOOK: There is no sign of an opportunity for Escobar to start at shortstop anytime soon in Chicago so he’ll either be trade bait or end up filling a utility role for the club. Either way he offers enough potential to put forth a respectable big league career."

Frankly, this seems like what a Liriano haul should've looked like.

Winston Smith
07-28-2012, 10:38 PM
Just remember that while Billy was the GM he deferred all scouting and personnel moves to TR and his good ole boys. Billy is responsible for the Mauer contract and other terrible contracts but TR and the Good Ole Boys are the reason there is no talent in the organization. This trade is more of the same.

+++

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 10:39 PM
Both players are headed to AAA....PJ Walters to 60 day DL....who comes up from AAA as they were at 24 players

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 10:39 PM
I'm coining the phrase "Mateo Tolberto" to be used for any reference to "utility guy from the Liriano trade" from this point forward.

Danchat
07-28-2012, 10:41 PM
Escobar was ranked the Sox #8 prospect by fangraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/top-15-prospects-chicago-white-sox/)- strong glove, no bat - "CAREER OUTLOOK: There is no sign of an opportunity for Escobar to start at shortstop anytime soon in Chicago so he’ll either be trade bait or end up filling a utility role for the club. Either way he offers enough potential to put forth a respectable big league career."

Frankly, this seems like what a Liriano haul should've looked like.
So we are basically getting a replacement for Alexi Casilla next season?
Great, now Duensing or Swarzak (when healthy) will be made into starters at this rate with another young bullpen guy. Hopefully Jeff Gray gets DFA.

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 10:42 PM
woulda rather had the sandwich pick.
Is this a alternative way of telling Frankie that he's not highly wanted so that they can resign him in offseason??

greenland on the map
07-28-2012, 10:44 PM
My only solace in this trade is the hope that Fran will revert to his old ways and sabotage the White Sox playoff run. Then it will have been worth it. Sort of

Highabove
07-28-2012, 10:45 PM
Trading him to a division rival does not hurt us this year, but if the Sox resign him we could be screwed.

Bark's Lounge
07-28-2012, 10:46 PM
I'm coining the phrase "Mateo Tolberto" to be used for any reference to "utility guy from the Liriano trade" from this point forward.

Funny... I'll try to remember this. The Twins are the Chumps in this one, further escalated by trading with the enemy. What a splendid hand job this was.

Rivas#1Fan
07-28-2012, 10:46 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that the market for Liriano was not what we had hoped for? I'm all for criticizing the moves of the front office, but not even the most inept of general managers would trade a Major League starter within the division, for mediocre prospects, if something better were available.

gunnarthor
07-28-2012, 10:48 PM
So we are basically getting a replacement for Alexi Casilla next season?
Great, now Duensing or Swarzak (when healthy) will be made into starters at this rate with another young bullpen guy. Hopefully Jeff Gray gets DFA.

What did you think we'd get? Liriano is a bad pitcher and will make about 10 more starts this season. A Punto like UI and a 5th starter/bullpen arm is about right. We still have valuable trading chips in Span and Willingham.

glunn
07-28-2012, 10:48 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that the market for Liriano was not what we had hoped for? I'm all for criticizing the moves of the front office, but not even the most inept of general managers would trade a Major League starter within the division, for mediocre prospects, if something better were available.

If this is true, then I think they should have kept Liriano.

I see nothing good about this trade.

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 10:49 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that the market for Liriano was not what we had hoped for? I'm all for criticizing the moves of the front office, but not even the most inept of general managers would trade a Major League starter within the division, for mediocre prospects, if something better were available.

Welcome Terry Ryan

daveha
07-28-2012, 10:49 PM
Oh, great. Since we are trailing the White Sox by 314 games this year, this trade can only hurt us next year when, thanks to these brilliant acquisitions, we obviously become the odds-on favorite to win the division. This makes the Garza and Santana trades look like strokes of genius by comparison. Storm the castle!

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 10:50 PM
Funny... I'll try to remember this. The Twins are the Chumps in this one, further escalated by trading with the enemy. What a splendid hand job this was.
Generally, I'd imagine the rule of thumb is "don't give a division rival someone that you think will come back to haunt you".

In this case, the Twins gave up a couple month rental in a lost season.

The Sox gave up two guys with tons of team control left. I can only imagine how highly they're regarded in the Sox inner circle for this to go down.

Time to go wander the neighborhood and find some dog feces to mail to JR's office. (Who knows what he may send me in return!)

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 10:52 PM
Absolutely all are welcome, but Im just chuckling that 3 or 4 guys have posted for the first time in the last couple minutes......Frankie brings out everyone!!!

Rivas#1Fan
07-28-2012, 10:55 PM
Welcome Terry Ryan


Great to be here! Thanks for having me.

minn55441
07-28-2012, 10:57 PM
Liriano had to be traded.

1) We weren't going to resign him after the season.
2) By moving him now, it does not affect our playoff chances.
3) We got something in return, every GM is aware of his struggles. I'm sure TR didn't walk away from a better offer.

Every one bitching about this trade, would even be more upset if he were not moved by the deadline.

glunn
07-28-2012, 10:58 PM
Hopefully Ryan sees potential value in at least one of these guys and I pray that he is correct.

gunnarthor
07-28-2012, 10:58 PM
Sickels on Hernandez: Hernandez has an 88-92 MPH fastball along with a good changeup and mediocre curve. There's nothing spectacular about him, but he throws strikes and could develop into a fifth starter or a relief option. I currently rate him as a Grade C prospect. http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/12/31/2673194/prospects-in-the-carlos-quentin-trade-san-diego-padres-chicago-white-sox

Bark's Lounge
07-28-2012, 10:58 PM
[QUOTE=FrodaddyG;39205Time to go wander the neighborhood and find some dog feces to mail to JR's office. (Who knows what he may send me in return!)[/QUOTE]

Maybe Alex Wimmers pitching arm. That seems like a fair trade for dog feces.:)

nicksaviking
07-28-2012, 11:00 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that the market for Liriano was not what we had hoped for? I'm all for criticizing the moves of the front office, but not even the most inept of general managers would trade a Major League starter within the division, for mediocre prospects, if something better were available.

Yes but an inept GM trades a guy for next to nothing when he could have gotten an additional high draft pick next year when his player declines the qualifying offer. There's maybe 20% chance max that Liriano would have accepted seeing as he's likely the top lefty and one of the youngest on the market next year and it wouldn't have been the end of the world if he had accepted.

I was ready for a complete overhaul but I don't trust Ryan to do right by the club anymore. Please hold onto Span/Willingham/Perkins and anyone else under contract until someone with a better vision takes control.

70charger
07-28-2012, 11:01 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that the market for Liriano was not what we had hoped for? I'm all for criticizing the moves of the front office, but not even the most inept of general managers would trade a Major League starter within the division, for mediocre prospects, if something better were available.

Thank you. I've been all for trading Liriano, and it's frankly because he's not a good pitcher. Yeah, yeah, yeah, talent. Blah, blah, blah, upside. Gimme something in a real game, please, or just shut the hell up. He's been crap since his Tommy John (2010 excepted), and on top his horrible inconsistency, he only pitches well when there is absolutely nothing on the line. He's Mr. June.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this trade. Yeah, these guys aren't stellar. But Liriano isn't any good anyway, and he's a rental without a comp pick. What the hell did you people expect?

greenland on the map
07-28-2012, 11:02 PM
Absolutely all are welcome, but Im just chuckling that 3 or 4 guys have posted for the first time in the last couple minutes......Frankie brings out everyone!!!

What can I say? I am going to miss those 10 trips to the mound by Joe and Andy before the fifth inning. Fond memories

Highabove
07-28-2012, 11:03 PM
Who still wants to trade Perkins and Burton??

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 11:03 PM
What the hell did you people expect?
Keep him and take the single comp pick which has a better chance of being a meaningful player than either of these schlubs?

Rivas#1Fan
07-28-2012, 11:03 PM
Yes but an inept GM trades a guy for next to nothing when he could have gotten an additional high draft pick next year when his player declines the qualifying offer. There's maybe 20% chance max that Liriano would have accepted seeing as he's likely the top lefty and one of the youngest on the market next year and it wouldn't have been the end of the world if he had accepted.

I was ready for a complete overhaul but I don't trust Ryan to do right by the club anymore. Please hold onto Span/Willingham/Perkins and anyone else under contract until someone with a better vision takes control.

Those guys are going to need longer contracts if you want to hold onto them until that happens.

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 11:05 PM
With this trade, the Capps resigning (no draft pick), & not dafting the highest guys available (LBard).....can we surmize Terry Ryan isnt a great fan of sandwich picks

glunn
07-28-2012, 11:06 PM
As an extra added bonus, Duensing is starting tomorrow.

How is this going to feel later in the season if Liriano no hits the Twins?

Rivas#1Fan
07-28-2012, 11:06 PM
Keep him and take the single comp pick which has a better chance of being a meaningful player than either of these schlubs?

This argument on the surface seems logical. But, is there really a better chance the draft pick made by a Terry Ryan led front office is better than two prospects traded for by same said front office? ;-)

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 11:08 PM
This argument on the surface seems logical. But, is there really a better chance the draft pick made by a Terry Ryan led front office is better than two prospects traded for by same said front office? ;-)
I'll roll the dice with an unknown over two proven mediocre assets.

nicksaviking
07-28-2012, 11:09 PM
As an extra added bonus, Duensing is starting tomorrow.

How is this going to feel later in the season if Liriano no hits the Twins?

Our indignation will certainly feel justified.

minn55441
07-28-2012, 11:10 PM
I guess a lot of this discussion revolves around how you think Frankie will pitch over the second half of the season. Regardless of your criteria, wins, ERA, WAR, innings pitched etc... do really think he will pitch well enough to improve his value next offseason? I don't think he will pitch well enough to warrant a multi-year deal let alone one for 12 million plus.

I guess we just wait and see.

gunnarthor
07-28-2012, 11:10 PM
Keep him and take the single comp pick which has a better chance of being a meaningful player than either of these schlubs? It's also very likely that Liriano will continue to suck as a pitcher and we'd be left with nothing for him.

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 11:11 PM
It's also very likely that Liriano will continue to suck as a pitcher and we'd be left with nothing for him.
You mean, besides a comp pick?

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 11:13 PM
I guess a lot of this discussion will revolves around how you think Frankie will pitch over the second half of the season. Regardless of your criteria, wins, ERA, WAR, innings pitched etc... do really think he will pitch well enough to improve his value next offseason? I don't think he will pitch well enough to warrant a multi-year deal let alone one for 12 million plus.

I guess we just wait and see.
Some front office will bite on his potential, even if he's unimpressive the rest of this year. There's no way a guy with Liriano's injury history takes a one year deal when he's one bad tweak of his elbow away from the end of his career, and someone will throw at least 3/$20 at him.

70charger
07-28-2012, 11:14 PM
Keep him and take the single comp pick which has a better chance of being a meaningful player than either of these schlubs?

First of all, you have to offer him more than $12 million and have him turn it down to get a comp pick. I don't think Liriano's turning that down, because despite the "wisdom" shown on this board, major league GMs know he isn't worth that money. So we'd be stuck sinking too much money into a guy with a 5 ERA, and come next season we're in the exact same position.

Second of all, you get one sandwich pick, and statistically, that one pick isn't likely to be a good major league player. Hell, many of those picks don't even make it to AAA. On the other hand, you trade Liriano for what we traded him for, and you get... two AAA players! Including one who was just traded for Carlos Quentin. I think some people here might be bad at math.

gunnarthor
07-28-2012, 11:16 PM
You mean, besides a comp pick? The Twins wouldn't give him a qualifying offer if he has a 5.00 era and 0 (or lower) WAR (both of which are better than his current numbers). And if they did, he'd take it so we'd be stuck with a 12.5m for a cruddy pitcher.

PseudoSABR
07-28-2012, 11:16 PM
Liriano probably accepts arb and the Twins are stuck w an even more untradeable player. The comp pick was far from guaranteed. Seriously, it's unlikely the Twins even offer arb. That said, not even exactly happy w the trade. This spells the end for casilla, methinks

70charger
07-28-2012, 11:16 PM
You mean, besides a comp pick?

Dude, look up the new CBA and while you're at it, quit spewing this line.

minn55441
07-28-2012, 11:16 PM
Some front office will bite on his potential, even if he's unimpressive the rest of this year. There's no way a guy with Liriano's injury history takes a one year deal when he's one bad tweak of his elbow away from the end of his career, and someone will throw at least 3/$20 at him.

That's a good point, there maybe someone out there willing to give him 3/$20. But I don't think that he could turn down $12 for one year if we offered it to him. Even if there was a 25% chance of him taking the offer, we can't afford to make that mistake. We don't want him pitching for us anymore. that decision had been made. We can't afford to make him an offer, or he might accept.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-28-2012, 11:20 PM
This sucks

70charger
07-28-2012, 11:20 PM
Liriano probably accepts arb and the Twins are stuck w an even more untradeable player. The comp pick was far from guaranteed. Seriously, it's unlikely the Twins even offer arb. That said, not even exactly happy w the trade. This spells the end for casilla, methinks

Liriano has enough service time. He's out of his arb years.

daveha
07-28-2012, 11:20 PM
It's as if Ryan just wants to GET PAST THIS SEASON [after suffering an equally bad one last year]. If he drops some more salary, who cares if he trades what few assets the Twins have for next to nothing? [The trick was always to package Liriano with Span.] Now I'm getting cold sweats thinking about what new plots TR is about to hatch. Span for Fidel Castro's driver? Willingham for Marta? Morneau for Ricky Ricardo?

Top Gun
07-28-2012, 11:20 PM
Twins acquired LHP Pedro Hernandez and INF Eduardo Escobar from the White Sox for LHP Francisco Liriano.

Hernandez was shelled for eight runs on 12 hits over just four innings earlier this season in his major league debut and hasn't been back since. He has a cool 2.94 ERA this year on the farm, but he's also sporting a weak 5.7 K/9. The 23-year-old southpaw simply does not possess dominant stuff

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 11:22 PM
First of all, you have to offer him more than $12 million and have him turn it down to get a comp pick. I don't think Liriano's turning that down, because despite the "wisdom" shown on this board, major league GMs know he isn't worth that money. So we'd be stuck sinking too much money into a guy with a 5 ERA, and come next season we're in the exact same position.

Second of all, you get one sandwich pick, and statistically, that one pick isn't likely to be a good major league player. Hell, many of those picks don't even make it to AAA. On the other hand, you trade Liriano for what we traded him for, and you get... two AAA players! Including one who was just traded for Carlos Quentin. I think some people here might be bad at math.
As I stated in a different reply, someone is offering Liriano multiple years at well over $12M. If someone offers him $20M, even over 3 years, that's an extra $7.5M for a guy who has already had two serious arm injuries in his career. He's not taking the qualifying offer and saying "I'll get paid next year". He's taking the money and running, since he knows if he has one more arm issue, there is no more "next year" for his baseball career.

And as far as "two AAA players" goes: One has a mid 600s OPS in 2500 minors PAs, and the other profiles as a reliever at best, and has progressively struck out less and less batters as he moved up, to where he's now at a Pavano-esque level. (Unless the staggeringly large 17 IP sample in AAA is to be believed. Which it most assuredly isn't.) Yippee.

Top Gun
07-28-2012, 11:23 PM
Twins acquired INF Eduardo Escobar and LHP Pedro Hernandez from the White Sox for LHP Francisco Liriano.

Escobar is batting just .207/.281/.276 in 36 major league games this season and produced a weak .666 OPS across 579 games in the minors. He's only 23 years old but the infielder seems doubtful to ever become a reliable everyday player in the bigs.

SDTwinsFan
07-28-2012, 11:23 PM
Honestly, I don't care about the prospects. I'm just absolutely furious he went to the White Sux....

Bark's Lounge
07-28-2012, 11:24 PM
Although this trade smells of the rotting private parts of a dead giraffe in the hot African sun... maybe there is a silver lining to this trade. I do not want to mention his given christian name, but the Latino Pitcher Whisperer should now be given his walking papers... oh ****... we still have Deduno. My bad.:(

70charger
07-28-2012, 11:26 PM
Honestly, I don't care about the prospects. I'm just absolutely furious he went to the White Sux....

Meh. Career win-loss record post-Tommy John is 38-49.

Rather than losing games for the Twins, he can now lose games against the Twins.

Rivas#1Fan
07-28-2012, 11:26 PM
Come on guys! Liriano is not good enough to warrant 4+ pages worth of discussions of his trade.

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 11:27 PM
That's a good point, there maybe someone out there willing to give him 3/$20. But I don't think that he could turn down $12 for one year if we offered it to him. Even if there was a 25% chance of him taking the offer, we can't afford to make that mistake. We don't want him pitching for us anymore. that decision had been made. We can't afford to make him an offer, or he might accept.
Say I offer you $50K (paid up front) to work for my company next year. I then offer you $100K (all up front) to work for my company for the next for three years, but there's a 10% chance you'll be crippled in a car accident in the next year and never work again. Either way, you keep all the money. Which do you take?

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 11:29 PM
Dude, look up the new CBA and while you're at it, quit spewing this line.
The CBA where the Twins give a qualifying offer and get a comp pick when he declines? That CBA?

gunnarthor
07-28-2012, 11:30 PM
Say I offer you $50K (paid up front) to work for my company next year. I then offer you $100K (all up front) to work for my company for the next for three years, but there's a 10% chance you'll be crippled in a car accident in the next year and never work again. Either way, you keep all the money. Which do you take? The problem is you're assuming another team would be dumb enough to offer Liriano a multi-year contract. There's no reason to think that happens. If he finishes the season pitching like he had been over the last month, then maybe someone takes that gamble. If he continues to struggle (a good bet with his track record) no one makes that offer.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-28-2012, 11:30 PM
After his last start against them I'm guessing the white sox wanted him for bp

FrodaddyG
07-28-2012, 11:32 PM
The problem is you're assuming another team would be dumb enough to offer Liriano a multi-year contract. There's no reason to think that happens. If he finishes the season pitching like he had been over the last month, then maybe someone takes that gamble. If he continues to struggle (a good bet with his track record) no one makes that offer.
Someone is offering him a multi-year deal. This I promise you. The flashes of dominance he shows are like GM catnip for a free agent. It's not liek there's going to be a huge crop of great FA pitchers this offseason.

Badsmerf
07-28-2012, 11:33 PM
I'm speechless. Actually, **** it. This team is going to be **** for a while, might as well roll in it.

nicksaviking
07-28-2012, 11:34 PM
Come on guys! Liriano is not good enough to warrant 4+ pages worth of discussions of his trade.

Trading only the 2nd starter who can boast a career K/9 over 7.80 for such a light haul seems like a big deal to me.

Top Gun
07-28-2012, 11:34 PM
Twins acquired INF Eduardo Escobar and LHP Pedro Hernandez from the White Sox for LHP Francisco Liriano.

Escobar is batting just .207/.281/.276 in 36 major league games this season and produced a weak .666 OPS across 579 games in the minors. He's only 23 years old but the infielder seems doubtful to ever become a reliable everyday player in the bigs.

Rivas#1Fan
07-28-2012, 11:34 PM
On the bright side, this trade is going to save me the money I would have had to spend on cotton candy for the nephew, when I'm able to leave early after Duensing gives up 8 runs in 5 innings.

minn55441
07-28-2012, 11:37 PM
Say I offer you $50K (paid up front) to work for my company next year. I then offer you $100K (all up front) to work for my company for the next for three years, but there's a 10% chance you'll be crippled in a car accident in the next year and never work again. Either way, you keep all the money. Which do you take?

I understand, but the point of the matter is that you don't get both offers at the same time. I have to yes or no to the 50K for one year, without knowing what other offers are out there.

I'll take the 50K for one year and I think Frankie would take the 12+ million for next year and worry about his contract for 2014 later.

John Bonnes
07-28-2012, 11:38 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?849-Twins-Trade-Francisco-Liriano-To-White-Sox

Bark's Lounge
07-28-2012, 11:42 PM
Twins trade make Bark sad. Bark want smash things!

70charger
07-28-2012, 11:45 PM
Trading only the 2nd starter who can boast a career K/9 over 7.80 for such a light haul seems like a big deal to me.

Peripheral. Even if you include his ridiculously dominant 2006 campaign, Liriano has a career ERA+ of 97.

Leave out the 2006 season he's been staking his reputation on for six whole years and he's a pretty crappy pitcher.

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 11:45 PM
Just an observation....
MN seems to be more likely to trade for a player w/MLB experience than bring up their own
How often have the Twins called up a player to make their debut @ 23 or younger (not including Sept callups).....not often
Both players obtained today @ 23 made their MLB debuts this year
Delmon, CGomez both made their debuts with another team @ 21...Lester Oliveras was 23 w/DET
Of this roster....Mauer is one @ 21, Alex Burnett was 22, Liam Hendriks was 22 (Sept) , Perk was 23 (Sept..4gms) Alexi was 21 (Sept), Justin 22, Revere 22 (Sept), Benson/Parmellee (both 23 & Sept callups).

YourHouseIsMyHouse
07-28-2012, 11:46 PM
Every night I will cry myself to sleep upon having to see Liriano pitch for the White Sox. Awful trade and I'd almost rather keep Liriano for half a season than get those scrubs.

elephanthater
07-28-2012, 11:51 PM
i agree, we got nothing out of this. I just do not get this dumping of players to division rivals for no talent in return (delmon last year to tigers, and now this).

John Bonnes
07-28-2012, 11:51 PM
The ONLY was I can think to justify this trade is if they thing or know that Liriano is hurt, possibly seriously hurt. Otherwise, this is just foolish.

Rivas#1Fan
07-28-2012, 11:51 PM
Just an observation....
MN seems to be more likely to trade for a player w/MLB experience than bring up their own
How often have the Twins called up a player to make their debut @ 23 or younger (not including Sept callups).....not often
Both players obtained today @ 23 made their MLB debuts this year
Delmon, CGomez both made their debuts with another team @ 21...Lester Oliveras was 23 w/DET
Of this roster....Mauer is one @ 21, Alex Burnett was 22, Liam Hendriks was 22 (Sept) , Perk was 23 (Sept..4gms) Alexi was 22, Justin 22, Revere 22 (Sept), Benson/Parmellee (both 23 & Sept callups).

You would think that if a team were truly rebuilding this number should be higher. Why not see what you have in house before signing or trading for a veteran (looking at your Jim Hoey, Jeff Gray, Jamey Carrol, etc.)?

one_eyed_jack
07-28-2012, 11:51 PM
I assumed Frankie would be traded, but I'm surprised it was to the Whities. I also thought we might get a little more than that, but then again, how much can you really expect for a rental of an enigma?

Oh well, may he be as frustrating for the Whities as he's been for the Twins.

Suppose there's a game 163 between Detroit and Chicago, and it comes down to a battle between Frankie and Delmon - what would happen? Would that violate the laws of physics or something? They couldn't both lose the game for their team on the same play.

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 11:54 PM
Just an observation....
MN seems to be more likely to trade for a player w/MLB experience than bring up their own
How often have the Twins called up a player to make their debut @ 23 or younger (not including Sept callups).....not often
Both players obtained today @ 23 made their MLB debuts this year
Delmon, CGomez both made their debuts with another team @ 21...Lester Oliveras was 23 w/DET
Of this roster....Mauer is one @ 21, Alex Burnett was 22, Liam Hendriks was 22 (Sept) , Perk was 23 (Sept..4gms) Alexi was 22, Justin 22, Revere 22 (Sept), Benson/Parmellee (both 23 & Sept callups).
@ Rochester
Luke French was 23 in his debut w/SEA, Eric Hurley was 22 w/TEX, Shairon Martis was 21 w/Wash, Sean Burroughs was 21 w/SD......so its not always a good thing

Bark's Lounge
07-28-2012, 11:56 PM
I started a joke, which started the whole world crying,
But I didn't see that the joke was on me, oh no.

Ultima Ratio
07-28-2012, 11:57 PM
I'll bet Liriano was inoculated with a latent microbe by the Twins medical staff and shipped to the ChiSux in order to infect them in the coming years. Crapsylitocus, I believe it is called. Symptoms are diverse and not well documented but they are chronic and invasive.

raindog
07-28-2012, 11:57 PM
i agree, we got nothing out of this. I just do not get this dumping of players to division rivals for no talent in return (delmon last year to tigers, and now this).

Big difference, Delmon Young sucks.

Pius Jefferson
07-28-2012, 11:57 PM
Maybe it was false hope to think the Twins could have gotten a B/B+ prospect for Liriano.

Bark's Lounge
07-28-2012, 11:57 PM
Say NO to "Chump Trading"!

gunnarthor
07-28-2012, 11:59 PM
Just an observation.... MN seems to be more likely to trade for a player w/MLB experience than bring up their own How often have the Twins called up a player to make their debut @ 23 or younger (not including Sept callups).....not often Both players obtained today @ 23 made their MLB debuts this year Delmon, CGomez both made their debuts with another team @ 21...Lester Oliveras was 23 w/DET Of this roster....Mauer is one @ 21, Alex Burnett was 22, Liam Hendriks was 22 (Sept) , Perk was 23 (Sept..4gms) Alexi was 21 (Sept), Justin 22, Revere 22 (Sept), Benson/Parmellee (both 23 & Sept callups). In recent years, Morneau, Kubel, Santana, Garza, Baker, Slowey

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 12:01 AM
Instead we got a hepatitis C prospect

jorgenswest
07-29-2012, 12:01 AM
Should it have made a difference where they traded him? They are not competing for the division this year. Liriano could have been in Chicago next year regardless of where he was traded.

As for value, a C pitcher and a C hitter are pretty equivalent to a sandwich pick. There are questions whether it would have been wise to offer Liriano the 12.5 million so the Twins might have received nothing.

If Escobar is the real deal with the glove, he will be valuable while under team control. Guys that can pick it at SS are not that easy to find for league minimum. I guess it is a plus that Hernandez is left handed. Both are young.

Six weeks ago Liriano had no value with absolutely no chance the Twins would make a qualifying offer. Getting two C prospects for a pitcher who has had so many poor outings since the last two seasons can't be seen as a bad trade. Does anyone think Ryan turned down better offers? Let's spend the 12.5 million elsewhere next year and we have what looks like two guys who will have major league careers. What do we lose? The remaining Liriano starts in 2012. Nothing else.

Pius Jefferson
07-29-2012, 12:01 AM
Although this trade smells of the rotting private parts of a dead giraffe in the hot African sun... maybe there is a silver lining to this trade. I do not want to mention his given christian name, but the Latino Pitcher Whisperer should now be given his walking papers... oh ****... we still have Deduno. My bad.:(

Mauer caught Deduno.

drjim
07-29-2012, 12:02 AM
Reminds me of the Castillo trade.

One thing about the comp pick is that a team would have to beat the 12.4 mil for 1 year and forfeit their own first round pick. I don't see a team dojng that. Twins would have been stuck with Liriano. If this was the best the Twins can do that says a lot about the market.

I also found it interesting that Ryan traded him the day before his last scheduled start. He wanted no part of Liriano making another start and erasing all trade value.

Brandon
07-29-2012, 12:02 AM
This reminds me of the Luid Castillo trade. Then we got Butera and the OF that was a AAA OF. Looks like we just got the next generation Punto and a lefty who may be a reliever we'll see.

I had hoped to hear a we got B or B+ prospect. But it could be worse.

Bark's Lounge
07-29-2012, 12:02 AM
I'll bet Liriano was inoculated with a latent microbe by the Twins medical staff and shipped to the ChiSux in order to infect them in the coming years. Crapsylitocus, I believe it is called. Symptoms are diverse and not well documented but they are chronic and invasive.

Biological Warfare? Damn baseball is pretty damn serious these days... I like it!

drjim
07-29-2012, 12:04 AM
The ONLY was I cancel think to justify this trade is if they thing or know that Liriano is hurt, possibly seriously hurt. IOtherwise, this is just foolish.

Better the Twins got nothing? Or less?

Ultima Ratio
07-29-2012, 12:04 AM
This just shows how much Liriano's last outing affected his value. I have to believe this is the case more than TR and the front officers are inept and couldn't get anything more. Of course, I reserve the right to be wrong about the front officers.

Ultima Ratio
07-29-2012, 12:07 AM
Biological Warfare? Damn baseball is pretty damn serious these days... I like it!

Since conventional baseball hasn't worked recently, I think they may try guerrilla baseball tactics.

Brandon
07-29-2012, 12:08 AM
who is paying the remaining 2 million on Liriano's contract? I guess that could swing the pendulum of value some.

Bark's Lounge
07-29-2012, 12:08 AM
Mauer caught Deduno.

I know, I know. But I am covering all of my bases, Tonight was a big disappointment. If Liriano can be traded for petrified pieces of cat ****, I feel we are deserved of a Drew Butera ousting... right?

Ultima Ratio
07-29-2012, 12:10 AM
I'm sure that remaining and saved 2 million is now earmarked for SP FA in the offseason rather than just... well.... saved. [Sarcasm]

70charger
07-29-2012, 12:11 AM
This just shows how much Liriano's last outing affected his value. I have to believe this is the case more than TR and the front officers are inept and couldn't get anything more. Of course, I reserve the right to be wrong about the front officers.

I doubt that it was his last outing. I think it was more like his last 5 years. Those who thought Liriano was a #1 or #2 were just deluding themselves. He was/is absolutely not in the same league as some of the other trade bait this year like Greinke, Hamels, and probably even Dempster. (And no, I don't mean the AL.)

Rivas#1Fan
07-29-2012, 12:11 AM
Since conventional baseball hasn't worked recently, I think they may try guerrilla baseball tactics.

Where's the next Henry Rowengartner when you need him?

Jim Crikket
07-29-2012, 12:11 AM
Reminds me of the Castillo trade.

One thing about the comp pick is that a team would have to beat the 12.4 mil for 1 year and forfeit their own first round pick. I don't see a team dojng that. Twins would have been stuck with Liriano. If this was the best the Twins can do that says a lot about the market.

I also found it interesting that Ryan traded him the day before his last scheduled start. He wanted no part of Liriano making another start and erasing all trade value.

Finally... someone who gets it.

After the big turd Liriano laid last week, NOBODY was going to give up anything worthwhile for him. The Twins couldn't afford to take the chance that he might take the $12.4 million qualifying offer (which he almost certainly WOULD, unless he happened to pitch lights-out the rest of the season).

greengoblinrulz
07-29-2012, 12:12 AM
Just an observation....
MN seems to be more likely to trade for a player w/MLB experience than bring up their own
How often have the Twins called up a player to make their debut @ 23 or younger (not including Sept callups).....not often
Both players obtained today @ 23 made their MLB debuts this year
Delmon, CGomez both made their debuts with another team @ 21...Lester Oliveras was 23 w/DET
Of this roster....Mauer is one @ 21, Alex Burnett was 22, Liam Hendriks was 22 (Sept) , Perk was 23 (Sept..4gms) Alexi was 21 (Sept), Justin 22, Revere 22 (Sept), Benson/Parmellee (both 23 & Sept callups).
Kevin Slowey was 23....Scott Baker was 23....Anthony Swarzak was 23.....Adam Johnson was 23....Jose MiJares was 23 (Sept) ...Rob Bowen was 23 (Sept) ....Michael Restovich was 23 (Sept).....Matt Garza was 22....Wilson Ramos was 22......Jason Kubel was 22 (Sept).....JD Durbin was 22 (Sept).....Jessie Crain was 21.....Francisco Liriano was 21 (Sept)
All I found in the Gardy era
Non Sept debuts.....10 players in 10 years in Gardy era made their debuts with him at 23 yrs old or younger.

elephanthater
07-29-2012, 12:12 AM
referencing an earlier post about how we shouldn't worry cause we still have willingham and span-they won't trade them. they have team friendly contracts and for some reason want to keep a team that can win 70 games. i would rather suffer through 3 years worse than this than be where we are now for the next 6.

Pius Jefferson
07-29-2012, 12:12 AM
Instead we got a hepatitis C prospect

Is it that hard to believe that's what a rent-a-player with a 5.30 ERA and potential to be dominate would get?


A couple of other things.

1) Why not wait a couple of days? I doubt a bad start later today would have made any difference given they got a utility infielder and back of the end rotation guy.

2) Pitching ....Pitching. This organization needs pitching and they get a P and a SS.

3) I'd be curious what else what available. Both from other teams and the White Sox. I hope we don't find out lower level pitchers with more upside were passed over for a pitcher considered more major league ready.

70charger
07-29-2012, 12:14 AM
Is it that hard to believe that's what a rent-a-player with a 5.30 ERA and potential to be dominate would get?




This. And as far as I'm concerned, if that potential to be dominant hasn't shown up consistently in the last six years, it's not gonna.

Riverbrian
07-29-2012, 12:16 AM
how much can you really expect for a rental of an enigma?



Kudos... Perfect line to describe the situation.

It seems that no one likes their X mas present.

The Twins were not going to offer him 12 million for the comp pick because he might take it.

His trade value was about to hit the wall at the trade deadline. If no one offered a better package of players. You have to take the deal or you get nothing. And then we have a handful of starts in a Twins uniform(the farewell tour) on a team that isn't going to make the playoffs... Even if we score 30 runs this weekend against the Indians.

With Span you can set the price high and keep him if the price isnt paid... With Morneau you can do the same because they are coming back. Under contract... It says so... With Willingham the same. Liriano was gone... There was almost no possibility of him playing for the Twins in 2013.

Liriano wasn't going to be offered a contract next year. They can't spend that kind of money on someone who melts down as often as he has and believe me the Twins have had a front row seat for everyone of those meltdowns.

I'm disappointed... I had dreams of a boatload of pitching prospects coming back but to be indignant over the deal is to assume that the Twins turned down something larger to make this trade.

Does anyone believe that TR turned down Terehen and Delgado to make this deal instead. C'mon... can we give him the benefit of the doubt that he looked at what was out there and chose the best package.

one_eyed_jack
07-29-2012, 12:18 AM
It's disappointing not to get more. But think about it from the perspective of the other teams. If you were the GM of the Braves, Cards, Angels, etc., would you have been willing to part with your best prospects for 2 months of Liriano?

I wouldn't have.

Willihammer
07-29-2012, 12:22 AM
Suppose there's a game 163 between Detroit and Chicago, and it comes down to a battle between Frankie and Delmon - what would happen? Would that violate the laws of physics or something? They couldn't both lose the game for their team on the same play. My moneys would be on Frankie for the strikeout, because in Delmon's mind, home plate encompasses the square footage of a small KFC drive through.

Rivas#1Fan
07-29-2012, 12:23 AM
My moneys would be on Frankie for the strikeout, because in Delmon's mind, home plate encompasses the square footage of a small KFC drive through.

Had to make it a KFC huh?

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 12:24 AM
I'm intrigued by the SS to be honest. We need SP no doubt but our MI depth in the org is awful. His results have been bad but maybe the Twins see something that can be improved. 23 isnt young, but at least there is still some potential improvement moving forward.

Pius Jefferson
07-29-2012, 12:26 AM
The ONLY was I can think to justify this trade is if they thing or know that Liriano is hurt, possibly seriously hurt. Otherwise, this is just foolish.

That or this was going rate for a guy with 'potential'.

greengoblinrulz
07-29-2012, 12:26 AM
John, you missed it.
Escobar was 10th by Baseball America entering the 2012 season.
He was also 5th for the Sox entering the 2011 season
He was also 19th entering the 2010 season.
Still suxx no matter where he was listed
Dont we already have this guy, just names Pedro Florimon in AAA??

Kobs
07-29-2012, 12:27 AM
I'm intrigued by the SS to be honest.

It's not every day you can bring in a guy who can't hit for average, but makes up for it by being unable to draw a walk.

Rivas#1Fan
07-29-2012, 12:30 AM
It's not every day you can bring in a guy who can't hit for average, but makes up for it by being unable to draw a walk.

Well it's not every day, but it is every day game after a night game.

Ultima Ratio
07-29-2012, 12:31 AM
Well it's not every day, but it is every day game after a night game.
Rim shot. Good one :)

Willihammer
07-29-2012, 12:31 AM
Had to make it a KFC huh? Simma da'own, P.C. Brigadier, I have 4 times the post you have thus I am 4 times the authority on (fried chicken? let's face it - true) racial stereotypes (I'm white, and I like fried chicken, too FYI) Until you make one more post anyway (do it, do it, do it, do it, 1, 2, 3, now, do it, 1, 2, 3

Bark's Lounge
07-29-2012, 12:31 AM
Kudos... Perfect line to describe the situation.

It seems that no one likes their X mas present.

The Twins were not going to offer him 12 million for the comp pick because he might take it.

His trade value was about to hit the wall at the trade deadline. If no one offered a better package of players. You have to take the deal or you get nothing. And then we have a handful of starts in a Twins uniform(the farewell tour) on a team that isn't going to make the playoffs... Even if we score 30 runs this weekend against the Indians.

With Span you can set the price high and keep him if the price isnt paid... With Morneau you can do the same because they are coming back. Under contract... It says so... With Willingham the same. Liriano was gone... There was almost no possibility of him playing for the Twins in 2013.

Liriano wasn't going to be offered a contract next year. They can't spend that kind of money on someone who melts down as often as he has and believe me the Twins have had a front row seat for everyone of those meltdowns.

I'm disappointed... I had dreams of a boatload of pitching prospects coming back but to be indignant over the deal is to assume that the Twins turned down something larger to make this trade.

Does anyone believe that TR turned down Terehen and Delgado to make this deal instead. C'mon... can we give him the benefit of the doubt that he looked at what was out there and chose the best package.

For what the Twins received (organizational filler at best). Mr.Ryan could have sat on it 3 extra days to see if something unfolded that would be more benefitial to the Minnesota Twins cause trade wise. As we stand now, we have jack ****, compared to having Liriano. If it boils down to offering Liriano Arbitration in free agency - no thanks, but it is an option. I would have been stead fast, kept Liriano, held my honor and pride and not have been a trade chump.

greengoblinrulz
07-29-2012, 12:32 AM
Who plays SS in ROC now....Escobar a great field, no hit player or Pedro Florimon a great field no hit player????

Pius Jefferson
07-29-2012, 12:34 AM
Is this new pitcher getting called up from Rochester?

glunn
07-29-2012, 12:35 AM
On the bright side, this trade is going to save me the money I would have had to spend on cotton candy for the nephew, when I'm able to leave early after Duensing gives up 8 runs in 5 innings.

Well said. I am not even going to bother to set the DVR for tomorrow's game.

greengoblinrulz
07-29-2012, 12:36 AM
Have we heard who is called up from ROC......Oliveras is my guess for now.

Rivas#1Fan
07-29-2012, 12:37 AM
For what the Twins received (organizational filler at best). Mr.Ryan could have sat on it 3 extra days to see if something unfolded that would be more benefitial to the Minnesota Twins cause trade wise. As we stand now, we have jack ****, compared to having Liriano. If it boils down to offering Liriano Arbitration in free agency - no thanks, but it is an option. I would have been stead fast, kept Liriano, held my honor and pride and not have been a trade chump.

It would have been interesting to see how this would have played out if Liriano's spot in the rotation didn't come up until Tuesday or Wednesday rather than Sunday. Perhaps it would have been easier to play the waiting game without a potential value crushing performance waiting in the wings before the deadline.

glunn
07-29-2012, 12:38 AM
I started a joke, which started the whole world crying,
But I didn't see that the joke was on me, oh no.

Til I finally died, which started the whole world living,
Oh, if I'd only seen that the joke was on me.

Kobs
07-29-2012, 12:39 AM
It would have been interesting to see how this would have played out if Liriano's spot in the rotation didn't come up until Tuesday or Wednesday rather than Sunday. Perhaps it would have been easier to play the waiting game without a potential value crushing performance waiting in the wings before the deadline.

Definitely, if Liriano had **** the bed in his next start, the Twins might not have gotten anything of value for him.

glunn
07-29-2012, 12:41 AM
The ONLY was I can think to justify this trade is if they thing or know that Liriano is hurt, possibly seriously hurt. Otherwise, this is just foolish.

Isn't there some protocol for disclosing injuries? And if the Twins' renowned medical staff is telling Ryan that someone is hurt, that might not be the most reliable information.

nicksaviking
07-29-2012, 12:42 AM
The biggest probelm for me is that they traded him for two bums who are required to be on the 40-man. Why the hell would Ryan do this? These guys look to be DFA candidates the second their option years are up, but in the mean time who are we kicking off? Guerra? Slama? Waldrop? Tosoni? Surely Ryan could have recieved better quality prospects if he had picked players lower in a team's system. I don't think he thought this one through at all. Terrible decision; I'd have rather hung onto Liriano and rolled the dice that he was worthy of a qualifying offer. Obviously the Twins wouldn't have missed out on much even if they lost him for nothing in the offseason and there would be room to add Hicks and/or anyone else who needed to be added come this winter.

70charger
07-29-2012, 12:44 AM
My moneys would be on Frankie for the strikeout, because in Delmon's mind, home plate encompasses the square footage of a small KFC drive through.

That's not fair! Delmon has never missed anything in a KFC drive through!

YourHouseIsMyHouse
07-29-2012, 12:44 AM
Do we trust these guys to trade Span now??

Kobs
07-29-2012, 12:45 AM
The following conversation taking place would really be the only way this trade is remotely tolerable:

JR: If Mauer and Doumit are healthy, no one else should start at catcher.
Burl: Well, Lirianosie really likes having Butsey behind the plate, and I like having a "B" on the lineup ca...
JR: Can I put you on hold for a second?
Burl: Sure.
...
JR: You still there?
Burl: I'm still here.
JR: I just traded Liriano to the Chicago. You were saying?

greengoblinrulz
07-29-2012, 12:46 AM
At least if we trade Span, we have multiple OFs in the system just about ready.
There isnt a pitcher in sight anywhere (tho I like Hendriks alot still)

one_eyed_jack
07-29-2012, 12:46 AM
A little perspective for those of you who are ripping this trade - let's not forget that we're talking about a starting pitcher who 2 months ago was pulled from what is without question the worst starting rotation in the American League, and probably in all of baseball.

It was simply wishful thinking to believe that we'd get much more than we did for him.

Bark's Lounge
07-29-2012, 12:46 AM
Til I finally died, which started the whole world living,
Oh, if I'd only seen that the joke was on me.

Excellent Glunn, excellent! Early Bee Gees are my preferred.

glunn
07-29-2012, 12:48 AM
For what the Twins received (organizational filler at best). Mr.Ryan could have sat on it 3 extra days to see if something unfolded that would be more benefitial to the Minnesota Twins cause trade wise. As we stand now, we have jack ****, compared to having Liriano. If it boils down to offering Liriano Arbitration in free agency - no thanks, but it is an option. I would have been stead fast, kept Liriano, held my honor and pride and not have been a trade chump.

That makes sense to me Mr. Lounge. And i would add that sending him to the White Sox is demoralizing to us fans, who have already suffered enough. This will work out only if Liriano sucks going forward. Otherwise, this will be sickening.

70charger
07-29-2012, 12:48 AM
A little perspective for those of you who are ripping this trade - let's not forget that we're talking about a starting pitcher who 2 months ago was pulled from what is without question the worst starting rotation in the American League, and probably in all of baseball.

It was simply wishful thinking to believe that we'd get much more than we did for him.

I'm not piling on, I'm just contributing to critical mass.

On top of what this excellent post says, Liriano's current season ERA+ is 77. He's far, far below average. Last year, his whole-season ERA+ was 80. Let's face it. He's NOT A GOOD PITCHER!

Kobs
07-29-2012, 12:49 AM
A little perspective for those of you who are ripping this trade - let's not forget that we're talking about a starting pitcher who 2 months ago was pulled from what is without question the worst starting rotation in the American League, and probably in all of baseball.

It was simply wishful thinking to believe that we'd get much more than we did for him.

Is it wishful thinking to believe that the Twins could ask for players who aren't as obviously terrible as Eduardo Escobar?

70charger
07-29-2012, 12:50 AM
Is it wishful thinking to believe that the Twins could ask for players who aren't as obviously terrible as Eduardo Escobar?

Ask for? Yes.

Get? No.

Next question.

Riverbrian
07-29-2012, 12:51 AM
For what the Twins received (organizational filler at best). Mr.Ryan could have sat on it 3 extra days to see if something unfolded that would be more benefitial to the Minnesota Twins cause trade wise. As we stand now, we have jack ****, compared to having Liriano. If it boils down to offering Liriano Arbitration in free agency - no thanks, but it is an option. I would have been stead fast, kept Liriano, held my honor and pride and not have been a trade chump.

I don't think the start tomorrow would have made a difference. Let's assume it was the best offer. Trust me... It's easier to swallow if you assume that.

The best offer came from the team that LIT him up in his last start. His value was going to be the same.

Now this is a guess... Maybe the White Sox threw in one of the players or upgraded one of the players if the Twins would agree before Liriano starts tomorrow.

Another guess is that the deal was out there... Maybe TR spent today on the phone calling the Orioles...nthe Pirates...The Dodgers and said... I'm gonna have to take this trade with the White Sox... It's my best offer. Are you sure we can't talk about Britton... Player X and Y and Z for the any team he's been talking with.

One last chance before I pull the trigger. Ok... Good luck to you... Keep in touch...

Maybe TR got Liriano... The lesser deal out the way so he can focus on trading Span for a bigger deal in the next few days.

Who knows... But I think we are all dealing with trying to find a place to store the feeling of over cooked expectations. I know I am but it is what it is.

glunn
07-29-2012, 12:51 AM
Definitely, if Liriano had **** the bed in his next start, the Twins might not have gotten anything of value for him.

It is sounding like they got nothing of value, but only time will tell.

Highabove
07-29-2012, 12:53 AM
Outside of Slowey and Silva,
A good number of ex Twins Pitchers ended up finding themselves, once they left the Twins.
I will throw in Jose Mijares who was a head case here, flourishing with the Royals.
We all know the rest of the list.
The possiblity exist for a little more frustration.

70charger
07-29-2012, 12:56 AM
Outside of Slowey and Silva,
A good number of ex Twins Pitchers ended up finding themselves, once they left the Twins.
I will throw in Jose Mijares who was a head case here, flourishing with the Royals.
We all know the rest of the list.
Be ready for more frustration.

I call B.S. And this has been covered in other threads. I don't think the numbers are on your side.

Certainly, some pitchers have gotten better post-Twins. Many others have gotten better after joining the Twins. Many others we will never know about because they didn't move. The idea that we should be ready for frustration at the hands of Liriano is speculation piled on top of speculation, all of which flies in the face of actual history.

johnnydakota
07-29-2012, 12:58 AM
Just remember that while Billy was the GM he deferred all scouting and personnel moves to TR and his good ole boys. Billy is responsible for the Mauer contract and other terrible contracts but TR and the Good Ole Boys are the reason there is no talent in the organization. This trade is more of the same.

im betting this trade was ordered by owner jim pohlad to help derail the tigers as punishment for spending big in free agency , so ryan can say look the tiger spent and didnt win,,,,

jorgenswest
07-29-2012, 12:59 AM
We traded 12 starts. We did not trade any member of the 2013 team.

Highabove
07-29-2012, 01:04 AM
Phil Mackey is already heating up his (Twins fans are stupid routine.)

Highabove
07-29-2012, 01:08 AM
I call B.S. And this has been covered in other threads. I don't think the numbers are on your side.

Certainly, some pitchers have gotten better post-Twins. Many others have gotten better after joining the Twins. Many others we will never know about because they didn't move. The idea that we should be ready for frustration at the hands of Liriano is speculation piled on top of speculation, all of which flies in the face of actual history.

It's all speculation.

snepp
07-29-2012, 01:12 AM
I'm intrigued by the SS to be honest.


It's not every day you can bring in a guy who can't hit for average, but makes up for it by being unable to draw a walk.


Well it's not every day, but it is every day game after a night game.


Fantastic.

Bark's Lounge
07-29-2012, 01:13 AM
I don't think the start tomorrow would have made a difference. Let's assume it was the best offer. Trust me... It's easier to swallow if you assume that.

The best offer came from the team that LIT him up in his last start. His value was going to be the same.

Now this is a guess... Maybe the White Sox threw in one of the players or upgraded one of the players if the Twins would agree before Liriano starts tomorrow.

Another guess is that the deal was out there... Maybe TR spent today on the phone calling the Orioles...nthe Pirates...The Dodgers and said... I'm gonna have to take this trade with the White Sox... It's my best offer. Are you sure we can't talk about Britton... Player X and Y and Z for the any team he's been talking with.

One last chance before I pull the trigger. Ok... Good luck to you... Keep in touch...

Maybe TR got Liriano... The lesser deal out the way so he can focus on trading Span for a bigger deal in the next few days.

Who knows... But I think we are all dealing with trying to find a place to store the feeling of over cooked expectations. I know I am but it is what it is.

Hey RB, your points are outstanding and I do not think we are off on our philosophy by much. There was no sense in trading Liriano to the Sux for the package they received. The Players we received will never help us in any way or form as a winning ball club. Essentially we received nothing for Liriano, which is why I would have preferred to keep him and then lose him to FA. Pole position, poise, self respect and professionalism is what I want to see out of our GM. Chump trading is for the weak, we don't need this bull****.

snepp
07-29-2012, 01:14 AM
Carlos Gomez is jealous of Escobar's plate discipline.

glunn
07-29-2012, 01:16 AM
For fun I just looked at a White Sox fansite. As you can see for yourself (http://twinsdaily.com/www.southsidesox.com/), they don't seem very concerned about losing the two players that the Sox gave up in this trade.

Rivas#1Fan
07-29-2012, 01:21 AM
Let's be honest. This trade will likely end up having no effect on either team. The two "prospects" the Twins received will likely never contribute to the Major League club in any meaningful way. On the other hand Liriano will likely continue to be Liriano for the 2+ months the White Sox have him. He'll be just as likely to knock them out of the playoff race as he will be to propel them into October. The only winner will likely be Wrigley gum and their potential advertising campaign on account of Liriano's new habit.

Highabove
07-29-2012, 01:22 AM
I'm sure that remaining and saved 2 million is now earmarked for SP FA in the offseason rather than just... well.... saved. [Sarcasm]

The 2 million saved, is probably earmarked for the Pohlad's pocket.

glunn
07-29-2012, 01:28 AM
After looking at the writeup on Hernandez on the Sox website (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2012/index.jsp?c_id=cws#list=cws), I now feel a little better. He is listed there as the Sox's 20th best prospect, and they say that he can throw in the low 90's. If he can improve his breaking ball, he could be valuable, especially if Parker is willing to do an article breaking down what he is doing wrong.

Note that you have to click the right arrow on the Sox website to get to him.

Riverbrian
07-29-2012, 01:36 AM
Hey RB, your points are outstanding and I do not think we are off on our philosophy by much. There was no sense in trading Liriano to the Sux for the package they received. The Players we received will never help us in any way or form as a winning ball club. Essentially we received nothing for Liriano, which is why I would have preferred to keep him and then lose him to FA. Pole position, poise, self respect and professionalism is what I want to see out of our GM. Chump trading is for the weak, we don't need this bull****.

Yeah... I'm with ya... It's hard to shake off... I was watching for trade announcements every day... Hoping for that deal that blows my socks off... This wasn't it. I'm not satisfied.

But what If the Twins scouts like Escobar and project him to hit a little. Maybe they saw him down in Velenzuela and have been following him for 6 years and still think he could put it together.

I don't know but my guess would be that the White Sox came up to the Twins Price and not the other way around or the Twins would have held out longer.

I just don't think the market was there. As one eyed jack said perfectly. It's a 2 month rental of an enigma. Williams is rolling the dice and betting about what he can afford to lose. Williams would be crucified if Liriano goes into head case mode and it cost them Nestor Molina.

I'm bummed... But I'm not going to hang the GM unless someone tells me that he took this deal over a deal for Shelby Miller or someone similiar.

Besides... Escobar is a great SS name.

old nurse
07-29-2012, 01:36 AM
Outside of Slowey and Silva,
A good number of ex Twins Pitchers ended up finding themselves, once they left the Twins.
I will throw in Jose Mijares who was a head case here, flourishing with the Royals.
We all know the rest of the list.
Be ready for more frustration.

Lohse and Garza because the manager did not like them thus they were traded. Mijares you won't know for a couple more years. Many may have had one good year, but not an extended career.

howeda7
07-29-2012, 01:46 AM
First of all, you have to offer him more than $12 million and have him turn it down to get a comp pick. I don't think Liriano's turning that down, because despite the "wisdom" shown on this board, major league GMs know he isn't worth that money. So we'd be stuck sinking too much money into a guy with a 5 ERA, and come next season we're in the exact same position.

Second of all, you get one sandwich pick, and statistically, that one pick isn't likely to be a good major league player. Hell, many of those picks don't even make it to AAA. On the other hand, you trade Liriano for what we traded him for, and you get... two AAA players! Including one who was just traded for Carlos Quentin. I think some people here might be bad at math.

+1. The reality is 75% of people were going to bitch and moan about this regardless. Offering him $12 million was no safe bet and the pick is not necessarily better. They're also save > $2 million in salary by doing it now. The pitcher is at least interesting and if the IF'er is Tolbert 2.0 that's not the worst trade ever made.

edavis0308
07-29-2012, 01:53 AM
The thing that worries me the most is that TR is quoted via Strib that he thinks the pitcher has the stuff to stick as a starter, and he doesn't think he fits the pitch to contact mold. Also, the infielder has the potential to be a regular in the bigs (paraphrasing).

How splendid.

johnnydakota
07-29-2012, 02:01 AM
why didnt we just ask for terry doyle back...ryan sucks he need to change his depends and find a new retirement home

Highabove
07-29-2012, 02:07 AM
The thing that worries me the most is that TR is quoted via Strib that he thinks the pitcher has the stuff to stick as a starter, and he doesn't think he fits the pitch to contact mold. Also, the infielder has the potential to be a regular in the bigs (paraphrasing).

How splendid.

Does Ryan believe that he might have filled one of the starting Pitching spots next year?

old nurse
07-29-2012, 02:36 AM
The thing that worries me the most is that TR is quoted via Strib that he thinks the pitcher has the stuff to stick as a starter, and he doesn't think he fits the pitch to contact mold. Also, the infielder has the potential to be a regular in the bigs (paraphrasing).

How splendid.
What would you expect him to say? We traded an erratic pitcher that pitched maybe 5 good games in two years. We were not going to offer a qualifying offer. We got two stiffs and saved a few bucks.
Ryan should talk optimistically about what he gets back in trade. Hernandez could be the next Joe Mays. Hopefully without the injury. If the Twins play good defense, it could work short term. Or Hernandez could have Liriano's record over the last two years.
As a fan you have to hope that the Twins would spend the money of the contracts of Liriano and Pavano on two decent free agents. As a fan you should probably boycott a game if they don't sign at least one. (Make it the game with Houston).

beckmt
07-29-2012, 03:22 AM
We got 2 players for Liriano, which is 2 more than we would have had. This also will cover the Twins if either of the two following happens.
1. We can get a decent offer for Jamie Carroll.
2. Alex Castilla does not come back next year (about 50/50) in my book.
It is possible that a team would want both Span and Carroll, (read Dodgers), so this might be the front end for more trades.

Even if neither of the above happen, we are minus 2 mil in salery and have 2 possible major league players for a pitcher who was not going to be here next year.

drivlikejehu
07-29-2012, 03:33 AM
Of course they got less than the value of a compensation pick. TRfail.

raindog
07-29-2012, 06:07 AM
What would you expect him to say? We traded an erratic pitcher that pitched maybe 5 good games in two years.

He just had a stretch of 10 good games in a row.

nokomismod
07-29-2012, 06:13 AM
We traded 12 starts. We did not trade any member of the 2013 team.
Well said. Plus Liriano might just become his old evil twin self at any moment. Ryan was trying to get a pitcher with more upside at a single or double A level (he said as much in an interview), but it looks like this was the best deal we could land. I'm guessing the middle infielder will be a cheap replacement for Casilla who will not be resigned.

mike wants wins
07-29-2012, 06:34 AM
So much for only moving players for high upside guys. At first glance, this is a pretty mediocre trade. Having read the STrib article on July trades by Ryan, my hopes are pretty much dashed at this point. Clearly both players were rushed. The Sox were considered to have one of the worst systems in all of MLB, and I can't believe they couldn't get one upside guy for Liriano from someone.

stringer bell
07-29-2012, 06:48 AM
I just read through the two threads about the Liriano trade. I find it ironic that so many are thinking the Twins should have gotten more for fragile Frankie. Just like with Delmon, an uptick in performance seems to make everyone think he is an All-Star, rather than an inconsistent tease. I know nothing about the two former White Sox, but I do know that the Twins do a pretty good job of acquiring prospects. I also find it ironic that so many think that saving $1.5M by dumping Casilla is a given, but spending $12.5 as a qualifying offer for Liriano was no big deal. Unless Liriano continues his run of great pitching (minus the WS start last Monday) he won't get close to $12.5M and the Twins weren't going to risk that kind of money just so they could get a sandwich pick. It really doesn't matter that the Sox got Liriano. He is a free agent at the end of the year and the Twins aren't contenders this year.

mike wants wins
07-29-2012, 06:54 AM
I agree with those saying that Liriano was not going to be offered arbitration, and there would be no pick to the Twins (or, if they did offer, he'd accept). So, if this was the best offer, so be it.

jlovren
07-29-2012, 07:13 AM
It seems as though everyone forgets what Liriano is all about. He had one good year (2006) and has never been anywhere close to that since. He had one decent year (2010) and has a ton of of up and down starts. Take out 2006 and you have a record of 38-48 and an ERA somewhere around 4.7 to 5.0. The Twins are going to save 2 million for the remainder of the year, and more than likely a lot more next year and will hopefully sign a more consistent pitcher. It is completely unrealistic to expect two B level prospects for a D level pitcher (stats alone, not potential). In my opinion, good riddance and thank you for less headaches.

fatbeer
07-29-2012, 07:35 AM
i agree, we got nothing out of this. I just do not get this dumping of players to division rivals for no talent in return (delmon last year to tigers, and now this).

Heres why theres no logic to the trading to your rivals thing, who did we trade Pierzinsky to? If you rate package A higher then package B you do package A every time. Liriano was our 6th best player at best, he'll be about the 10th best White Sox player, and probably won't play for the White Sox next year.

Thrylos
07-29-2012, 07:57 AM
I think Escobar's career MiLB OPS summarizes everything you need to know for this trade: .666

kirbyelway
07-29-2012, 08:10 AM
I giver TR the benefit of the doubt. I don't know what you people thought we were going to get for Frankie, but I do know you need to be realistic. We got a guy who will battle Florimon for next years utility job and a possible 5th starter-long relief guy. It's not like we don't need bodies in these areas.

gunnarthor
07-29-2012, 08:12 AM
He just had a stretch of 10 good games in a row.

Technically, he had a stretch of 8 good games out of his last 11. His starts on June 10, July 1 and July 23 weren't good. (Although better than his normal stuff).

nicksaviking
07-29-2012, 08:15 AM
The problem isn't with Liriano as much as the fact that he isn't the only player the Twins gave away. Next spring, who is goinng to lose a spot on the 40-man because of these two? There are several expendable players on the roster, but it can be easily argued that these guys are just as expendable and useless. A powerless, speed deprived, utility infielder who can't get on base looks to be the worst player that will be on the Twins 40-man. If the Twins again need to clear roster space, Escobar looks to be the first player I'd dump. Next year will likely be his last option year, so unless he's good enough to stay on the 25-man all of 2014, he'll be put on waivers the first time the Twins actually need some offense to replace him. He might clear waivers, but then that will go to show what the rest of the league feels about him.

notoriousgod71
07-29-2012, 08:26 AM
To recap:

Pedro Hernandez, Eduardo Escobar, and Deolis Guerra=Johan Santana and Francisco Liriano

TheLeviathan
07-29-2012, 08:27 AM
This is either a strong indication of our inept scouting or the league perception of Liriano. Either way we lose.

James Richter
07-29-2012, 08:30 AM
Since his TJS, Liriano has been dreadful just as often as he's been outstanding. 122 G, 638.2 IP - these are not trivial sample sizes. Over that time, he averages out to 4.69 ERA, 1.42 WHIP, and fewer than 6 IP/GS. We should be thankful that anybody was crazy enough to give up anything at all for two months of that.

Top Gun
07-29-2012, 08:32 AM
TR is a ....... joke!

MidwestMeat
07-29-2012, 08:34 AM
Liriano probably accepts arb and the Twins are stuck w an even more untradeable player. The comp pick was far from guaranteed. Seriously, it's unlikely the Twins even offer arb. That said, not even exactly happy w the trade. This spells the end for casilla, methinks

The way Escobar's stats look up to this point It would seem he won't ever have more than a cup in Minneapolis if that.....especially with Rosario coming through. I agree with some of you though...I would rather trade for a few guys that can at least stock the farm and give those managers a little consistency than let him go for nothing after he sucks again and loses what little trade value he had.

Frankie will most likely no hit the twins...but then he will absolutely s*** the bed in the playoffs and the universe will be right again.

Top Gun
07-29-2012, 08:50 AM
I expect Liriano to win 20 games next season!

old nurse
07-29-2012, 08:50 AM
He just had a stretch of 10 good games in a row. You missed the point. What is Ryan going to say yo the media? He is going to play up his return. He is not going to badmouth Liriano and what came back. I guess I should have put a few quotation marks around it. But then I would have someone complaining Ryan never said that

Boom Boom
07-29-2012, 09:02 AM
TR in the Strib this morning "...I'm not going to say (Hernandez) pitches to contact."

That's OK, TR, you didn't have to.

Thrylos
07-29-2012, 09:05 AM
Here (http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/2012/07/twins-trade-talk-2012-july-29-what-did.html)is a quick analysis with mini profiles and scouting reports for Escobar and Hernandez. This could be better than what it looks, but still do not like it very much. Big part of it is that he was traded to the Sux.

killebrew
07-29-2012, 09:07 AM
The Twins weren't going to get much for Liriano. That's a given.

What I don't like about this deal is it shows that Ryan is looking for players who could possibly help next year over higher upside guys who are farther away. The real future of this team is mostly in the low minors right now, and it would be better to enhance that group (especially with some pitching) than to put bodies on the field in 2013.

Blake
07-29-2012, 09:22 AM
Alexi Casilla
Should it have made a difference where they traded him? They are not competing for the division this year. Liriano could have been in Chicago next year regardless of where he was traded.

As for value, a C pitcher and a C hitter are pretty equivalent to a sandwich pick. There are questions whether it would have been wise to offer Liriano the 12.5 million so the Twins might have received nothing.

If Escobar is the real deal with the glove, he will be valuable while under team control. Guys that can pick it at SS are not that easy to find for league minimum. I guess it is a plus that Hernandez is left handed. Both are young.

Six weeks ago Liriano had no value with absolutely no chance the Twins would make a qualifying offer. Getting two C prospects for a pitcher who has had so many poor outings since the last two seasons can't be seen as a bad trade. Does anyone think Ryan turned down better offers? Let's spend the 12.5 million elsewhere next year and we have what looks like two guys who will have major league careers. What do we lose? The remaining Liriano starts in 2012. Nothing else.

Additionally, does anyone believe Matt Capps, Carl Pavano, Tsuyoshi Nishioka and Alexi Casilla will be returning next year?

Granted, Nishioka isn't in the Majors, but, doesn't that clear another spot on the 40 man?

If Casilla and Nishioka are gone after this year, it only makes sense to fill one of the roster spots with an infielder.

And, I suspect there is a chance Blackburn is gone after this season. At some point, the team is just going to have to cut ties and eat some salary.

Shane Wahl
07-29-2012, 09:23 AM
Ok, hopefully trade time is done. This is just terrible. Trading within THE DIVISION is one thing, but doing it and getting next to nothing in return for a guy who at least is 50% very good, is absolutely ridiculous.

jctwins
07-29-2012, 09:48 AM
Not the move I was hoping for, but I assume they don't make this deal unless Coop can pinpoint something he knows he can fix.

I just had a chilling vision of Escobar turning into Punto 2.0 and tormenting the Sox for years.

For the win on WSI.

Shane Wahl
07-29-2012, 09:56 AM
We don't need a 5th starter type and a middle infielder with low upside.

Brock Beauchamp
07-29-2012, 10:01 AM
I'm going back to sleep and when I wake back up, somebody had better made this right again.

Texas Mike
07-29-2012, 10:11 AM
As stated, most of you view the 2006 Francisco Liriano as the current Francisco Liriano. He has been awful since with a rare good-to-great start, and the gentleman who posted the 122 post-TJ starts with a 1.42 WHIP shows me that Frankie is JAG material. In addition, what is the functional objection that he was traded to a "divisional rival"? We are not in contention and there is no guarantee that Liriano signs with the Sox next year. The return is ho hum for a ho hum pitcher who is 6 years removed from a very good season. This is neither a good or a bad move, and inserting "they could have gotten X" for him pretends that someone actually offered X for him. Highly doubtful that TR would say, "no I'm not going to take very good X, and instead take wto middling prospects instead." They only valid point here regards the trades impact on the 40 man roster as the team moves forward.

Rosterman
07-29-2012, 10:16 AM
Sadly both have to be added to the 40-man roster and stay on the 40-man roster. And one needs to contribute in the next two years, the other the next three. So we trade Frankie for two players that we have to immediately protect, but may not be as needed as others already in our system that may need protection. Go figure.

John Bonnes
07-29-2012, 10:29 AM
John, you missed it.
Escobar was 10th by Baseball America entering the 2012 season.
He was also 5th for the Sox entering the 2011 season
He was also 19th entering the 2010 season.
Still suxx no matter where he was listed
Dont we already have this guy, just names Pedro Florimon in AAA??

What BA list are you looking at? Is there another one? I don't see him here:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2012/2612801.html

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 10:29 AM
Who else can't wait until we face liriano for the first time though? That should be fun!

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 10:31 AM
Also it should be noted that perhaps at the end of the day there just wasn't much interest in Frankie. I mean look at who the angels gave up for grienke. The market was pretty weak this year it seems. Though I still wish they would have gotten him to stick around on a 2 year deal, maybe he will get homesick and resign in the offseason? One can hope...

minn55441
07-29-2012, 10:34 AM
I expect Liriano to win 20 games next season!

I'll take some of that action. You put up $100 I'll give you my house.

Fire Dan Gladden
07-29-2012, 10:37 AM
You guys crack me up. Is there ever going to be any situation that will make you happy?

The Twins decided Liriano was not going to be back next year and they weren't going to offer him the qualifying offer, so they made the best deal they felt they could. Who cares where he went this year. The Twins are not going to win the division this year. If they kept him through this year, he could still go to the White Sox (see Jesse Crain). They could trade him somewhere else and he could still end up in the division (see AJ Pierzynski).

You guys all called for Liriano to be dumped after the horrible start, sat around waiting for the other shoe to drop while he was pitching well, and now that he's traded, complain we didn't get enough for him. You are already complaining about the 40 man roster for next year?

Everybody needs to look at the reality of the situation and chill out. We got a utility infielder and middle reliever, both young and under team control. You were expecting Miguel Cabrera?

jorgenswest
07-29-2012, 10:43 AM
What BA list are you looking at? Is there another one? I don't see him here:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2012/2612801.html

I am pretty sure he was looking at their 2012 prospect handbook which is usually the first source. In it he was ranked 10th this year. Lists are fluid as trades are made.

JA
07-29-2012, 10:47 AM
Congrats Jon! You did a great job pointing out the negative.

DAM DC Twins Fans
07-29-2012, 10:51 AM
You guys crack me up. Is there ever going to be any situation that will make you happy?

The Twins decided Liriano was not going to be back next year and they weren't going to offer him the qualifying offer, so they made the best deal they felt they could. Who cares where he went this year. The Twins are not going to win the division this year. If they kept him through this year, he could still go to the White Sox (see Jesse Crain). They could trade him somewhere else and he could still end up in the division (see AJ Pierzynski).

You guys all called for Liriano to be dumped after the horrible start, sat around waiting for the other shoe to drop while he was pitching well, and now that he's traded, complain we didn't get enough for him. You are already complaining about the 40 man roster for next year?

Everybody needs to look at the reality of the situation and chill out. We got a utility infielder and middle reliever, both young and under team control. You were expecting Miguel Cabrera?

Best line on here--admit I skimmed some of the 8 pages.

TR and rest of Twins mgt. knew they couldnt risk offereing Frankie $12mill next year--he could take it--he should take it. So they got 2 AAAA players--maybe one will improve maybe not. They dumped Frankie. The Twins werent gonna get a compensation pick. Maybe Frankie gets 3 years $20 million from some fool. Maybe not. Not the Twins problem

snepp
07-29-2012, 10:57 AM
Maybe Mr. "Won't Necessarily Pitch to Contact" will turn into Diamond 2.0.

deanlambrecht
07-29-2012, 10:58 AM
Kudos... Perfect line to describe the situation.

It seems that no one likes their X mas present.

The Twins were not going to offer him 12 million for the comp pick because he might take it.

His trade value was about to hit the wall at the trade deadline. If no one offered a better package of players. You have to take the deal or you get nothing. And then we have a handful of starts in a Twins uniform(the farewell tour) on a team that isn't going to make the playoffs... Even if we score 30 runs this weekend against the Indians.

With Span you can set the price high and keep him if the price isnt paid... With Morneau you can do the same because they are coming back. Under contract... It says so... With Willingham the same. Liriano was gone... There was almost no possibility of him playing for the Twins in 2013.

Liriano wasn't going to be offered a contract next year. They can't spend that kind of money on someone who melts down as often as he has and believe me the Twins have had a front row seat for everyone of those meltdowns.

I'm disappointed... I had dreams of a boatload of pitching prospects coming back but to be indignant over the deal is to assume that the Twins turned down something larger to make this trade.

Does anyone believe that TR turned down Terehen and Delgado to make this deal instead. C'mon... can we give him the benefit of the doubt that he looked at what was out there and chose the best package.

Exactly this.

Brock Beauchamp
07-29-2012, 11:00 AM
Maybe Mr. "Won't Necessarily Pitch to Contact" will turn into Diamond 2.0.

That's the only glimmer of hope I can take away from this trade. Unfortunately, the chance of striking gold twice on that type of player is pretty slim.

jctwins
07-29-2012, 11:03 AM
Who else can't wait until we face liriano for the first time though? That should be fun!

Yeah, interestingly Floyd is still listed as the probable for today, and the White Sox are here Monday, so I am guessing he stays home today and joins the club tomorrow here in Minnesota.

mike wants wins
07-29-2012, 11:10 AM
I also meant to post I do not care he was dealt inside the division. It does not matter at all to the outcome for the twins.

snepp
07-29-2012, 11:14 AM
That's the only glimmer of hope I can take away from this trade. Unfortunately, the chance of striking gold twice on that type of player is pretty slim.

Unfortunately, having looked at his batted ball profile, he doesn't have the magic sink that Diamond does.

Riverbrian
07-29-2012, 11:17 AM
Here's what I did in my own head... I was pretty sure all along that Frankie had little value but I allowed myself to become hopeful that he had acquired some value because he strung some good starts together. I built up the expectation in my head because I was hopeful and I was reading his name in the rumor mill... Orioles scouting him... Angels scouting him... Blah Blah Blah... I think if some of you step back and look at it. A majority of you did the same thing. You allowed yourself to be hopeful for a nice return package.

What happened in this deal was reality. No matter what anyone thinks of the return on Frankie. We got something and we were about to watch the clock expire on Frankie because he was not coming back for 2013 unless we sign him for a reasonable deal as a FA. I doubt the Twins want to go that direction but who knows.

We got something and now it's up to these two new players to prove themselves going forward. If they don't... Well... They will be like the thousands of others who didn't make it but I'm willing to bet that the Twins like the chances of at least one of these guys.

The Twins need to start fresh with Pitching next year and move forward. I'd like the moving forward part to go as quickly as possible but you can't force other teams to give you players because you want them.

I've always believed that Span is the player that has the most value in a trade and I still do. Span is under control so TR doesn't have to move him at the trade deadline if the deal isn't right. If Span would have been traded to the White Sox for this pair... We could be a little more legimate in our indignation.

Frankie is a pitcher that can help a team in a playoff run or he could take that team completely off the rails. Any team that traded for him was grasping at straws. Rolling the Dice... Flipping the Coin... If I was a GM.... I wouldn't give up a lot for a guy that can potentially kill your chances just as easy as he provides a boost.

Frankie was gone in two months. Gone.

We still have a couple more days of trade deadline. Hang on everyone.

Brock Beauchamp
07-29-2012, 11:17 AM
Unfortunately, having looked at his batted ball profile, he doesn't have the magic sink that Diamond does.

Sigh. Well, I'm not going to rail on the trade too hard. I was wrong about the Diamond trade and so was 95% of the rest of the fan base (most of the other 5% consisted of dyed-in-the-wool homers). We all need to eat a few platefuls of crow for that trade.

With that said, I still don't like it. But I'll reserve a small portion of my hatred of the trade to admit that we don't know much about these players and there could be something there we don't see on a stat sheet.

snepp
07-29-2012, 11:23 AM
Sigh. Well, I'm not going to rail on the trade too hard. I was wrong about the Diamond trade and so was 95% of the rest of the fan base (most of the other 5% consisted of dyed-in-the-wool homers). We all need to eat a few platefuls of crow for that trade.

With that said, I still don't like it. But I'll reserve a small portion of my hatred of the trade to admit that we don't know much about these players and there could be something there we don't see on a stat sheet.

You can count me in on the 95%.

It's not so much that I hate this trade, it's just that there doesn't appear to be anything to like about it.

Brock Beauchamp
07-29-2012, 11:24 AM
You can count me in on the 95%.

It's not so much that I hate this trade, it's just that there doesn't appear to be anything to like about it.

Exactly. It seems to be the opposite of risk. The Twins get a soft-tosser and a no-OBP middle infielder.

Isn't the Twins system chock-full of both of those things already?

killebrew
07-29-2012, 11:33 AM
Exactly this.

No, because nobody expected a ton of talent in return.

There are two tradeoffs in the prospect package matrix. The first is proximity vs upside, the second is quantity vs quality. Ryan failed on both counts. The Twins are in a position right now where adding a couple of guys who will be nothing more than be modestly useful in the next couple of years gets them nowhere.

The only way to significantly improve the team through a Liriano trade would have been to accept some risk while exercising some patience.

They weren't going to get a sandwich pick for him, but I think they could have landed an A-ball pitcher with a 20% chance of being a #3 some day - which is about what a sandwich pick is worth. That's a better deal for this team.

Rosterman
07-29-2012, 11:34 AM
You guys crack me up. Is there ever going to be any situation that will make you happy?

The Twins decided Liriano was not going to be back next year and they weren't going to offer him the qualifying offer, so they made the best deal they felt they could. Who cares where he went this year. The Twins are not going to win the division this year. If they kept him through this year, he could still go to the White Sox (see Jesse Crain). They could trade him somewhere else and he could still end up in the division (see AJ Pierzynski).

You guys all called for Liriano to be dumped after the horrible start, sat around waiting for the other shoe to drop while he was pitching well, and now that he's traded, complain we didn't get enough for him. You are already complaining about the 40 man roster for next year?

Everybody needs to look at the reality of the situation and chill out. We got a utility infielder and middle reliever, both young and under team control. You were expecting Miguel Cabrera?


Well. Pedro could turn into the current equivalent of Frankie. Is that so bad?

The question is that by getting two AAA guys, do the Twins basically pass on Florimon and Bromberg, as two examples, to add on the 40-man roster. Equivalent players from your own system...well, maybe a tad older.

Yes, looking at this addition, I can see Pedro coming p in September and being given every chance next year to be in the rotation. Does Escobar basically replace Alexi. But what is the upside there...fielding? speed? OBP? youth? He has two years to stay with the Twins.

Again, worrying about the 40-man. It will be interesting to see who doesn't make, becomes minors free agents and all.

Rosterman
07-29-2012, 11:35 AM
Too bad we couldn't have packaged Toshi with Liriano, and offered to take Crain back!

jorgenswest
07-29-2012, 11:47 AM
Exactly. It seems to be the opposite of risk. The Twins get a soft-tosser and a no-OBP middle infielder.

Isn't the Twins system chock-full of both of those things already?

I don't think the Twins have anyone in their system with the ability to defend at SS to match Escobar's reports. BBA listed Dozier as the best defensive IF in their handbook. We are not even sure if he is a SS. Jorge Polanco has had some good reports off his defense but he is a long way for the majors. Florimon seems similar. The rap on him coming in according to Sickels was his trouble with the routine plays. In any case, the system is pretty void of guys who can defend at SS.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 11:50 AM
Well. Pedro could turn into the current equivalent of Frankie. Is that so bad?

The question is that by getting two AAA guys, do the Twins basically pass on Florimon and Bromberg, as two examples, to add on the 40-man roster. Equivalent players from your own system...well, maybe a tad older.

Yes, looking at this addition, I can see Pedro coming p in September and being given every chance next year to be in the rotation. Does Escobar basically replace Alexi. But what is the upside there...fielding? speed? OBP? youth? He has two years to stay with the Twins.

Again, worrying about the 40-man. It will be interesting to see who doesn't make, becomes minors free agents and all.
Escobar may be nothing special, but he is a significantly better prospect then Florimon, anyone who says Florimon is a better option then Escobar is flat out wrong.

The Twins have plenty of garbage on the 40 man, they shouldn't have to worry about making room.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 11:56 AM
Also looking at Hernandez we are forgetting two things:
1. we have the latino pitcher whisperer still on the roster.
2. His strike out rate isn't amazing, but it isn't as awful as many are making it out to be. Last year he had 9.4 k/9 in AA and 7.3 k/9 total for 2011. This year his k rate dipped quite a bit in AA but his ERA also was respectable 2.75, and I know this is short sample size to the max, but he does have 17 strike outs in 18 innings at AAA this year. He is still relatively young at 23 and apparently is trying to figure out his curve ball, if the Twins can help him with his third pitch is it unreasonable to think he couldn't at post a 7 k/9 rate in the majors? He isn't a strike out machine, but he isn't exactly Pavano/Blackburn at this point either.

snepp
07-29-2012, 12:00 PM
Yes, I think it's unreasonable to expect him to maintain the same strikeout rate in the majors that he had in the minors.

jorgenswest
07-29-2012, 12:01 PM
Hernandez - Do we have many 23 year old pitchers in this system who have made it to AAA and performed reasonably well throughout? The only guy I can think of is Hendriks. It looks like he profiles minimally as a reliever who can be more than a LOOGY. These guys have value.

greengoblinrulz
07-29-2012, 12:02 PM
What BA list are you looking at? Is there another one? I don't see him here:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2012/2612801.html
Ive got the actual handbook.....guess the website could be different.
Noticed on some websites that as soon as the player loses rookie status, they are taken off the prospcts list.

Simon Castro at #3 was acquired with Hernandez in the CQuentin deal & wasnt w/Sox yet in the book....so that probably knocked Escobar down to 11th. Casto was 14th for SD but 3rd for CHI, showing how lacking the Sox system was as BA had SOX ranked last & SD 8th(again in the book).

strumdatjag
07-29-2012, 12:06 PM
Twins are setting up a battle for middle infield positions next year in spring training: between Dozier (SS is his job to lose, but he'll be on a short leash), Casilla (maybe pronounced Kah-See Ya Later), Jamie Carroll (if he's still around - may be traded), believe it or not - Nishioka, maybe Florimon and who knows.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-29-2012, 12:10 PM
Yes, I think it's unreasonable to expect him to maintain the same strikeout rate in the majors that he had in the minors.

Yeah, he'd have to improve that third pitch, which the Twins have had some success with in the past. Even if his k rate drops you can sometimes live with a 6 k/9 rate. It's when you start dropping below that when you begin to approach Blackburn/Pavanoness territory.

FrodaddyG
07-29-2012, 01:59 PM
It's when you start dropping below that when you begin to approach Blackburn/Pavanoness territory.
The way he did in his (larger than AAA) AA sample size this year?

DPJ
07-29-2012, 02:40 PM
Jeez, you go camping and come back to this bull****.

I can't add anything that already hasn't been said, so I'll keep it simple. THE TWINS FRONT OFFICE IS FULL OF MORONS.

Dilligaf69
07-29-2012, 03:01 PM
Jeez, you go camping and come back to this bull****.

I can't add anything that already hasn't been said, so I'll keep it simple. THE TWINS FRONT OFFICE IS FULL OF MORONS.


Send in a resume....

USAFChief
07-29-2012, 03:54 PM
Just another example of talent drain out of the Twins system, which has been going on since Bill Smith took over.

Terrible waste.

jorgenswest
07-29-2012, 05:13 PM
Do we realize that the talent on the 2013 Twins or the system has not changed?

nokomismod
07-29-2012, 06:53 PM
Do we realize that the talent on the 2013 Twins or the system has not changed?
Well maybe because Liriano will not be coming back, but let's see what these other guys can do first. If nothing else, we added two young bodies that have the potential to do something positive. A lot of folks here seem to think they could have brought in a lot more talent for Liriano, but I'm going to be believe that this was the best offer on the table.

drjim
07-29-2012, 09:21 PM
From my perspective I hoped for more in return but I was fooling myself. Lots of complaining in this thread and others but I really want to know what people expected out of this. Look at the thread under "Liriano's Value" he nailed it there.

A qualifying offer to receive a draft pick was not going to happen. No team would have given up their first round pick to sign him, so Liriano would have taken the $12.4 mil and the Twins would have been stuck with him.

I long advocated trading him as quickly as possible for as much as they can get. They did it, I've moved on.

jctwins
07-29-2012, 10:57 PM
Now listed as Tuesday night's probable starter against Blackie. This could be a high scoring affair.

chopper0080
07-29-2012, 11:17 PM
Meh, a pitcher at AAA and a SS with major league skills is better than a comp pick or Liriano at 12 mil. I don't love the deal and wish we could have gotten more, but I have to think this is about as valuable as Liriano is.

Turd Furgeson
07-30-2012, 12:43 AM
Kevin Goldstein and Jason Parks have said that the White Sox have the worst farm system in the minors. Their best prospect is a relief pitching prospect. The fact that we didn't even get a top prospect in that system isn't encouraging.

70charger
07-30-2012, 12:54 AM
Ok, hopefully trade time is done. This is just terrible. Trading within THE DIVISION is one thing, but doing it and getting next to nothing in return for a guy who at least is 50% very good, is absolutely ridiculous.

Nope. June and July are not 50% of the season.


We don't need a 5th starter type and a middle infielder with low upside.

Very few people here seem to get it. Liriano IS a fifth starter. His ERA+ over the last six years is, frankly, ****ty.

He. Is. Not. A. Good. Pitcher.

Get over it!

70charger
07-30-2012, 12:59 AM
To recap:

Pedro Hernandez, Eduardo Escobar, and Deolis Guerra=Johan Santana and Francisco Liriano


This is so ridiculously wrong, it's ridiculous. Hey, let's not think for one second about how long these people were under contract with the Twins!

I'd say that 2 months of Liriano losing late-season games for Minnesota is "worth" less than nothing. We should all be happy we got more than a bag of balls. The fact of the matter is that neither one nor the other was going to be a Twin for any more a couple of months at the time of their trade. Santana was good, granted, but Liriano is not.

I'm going to be laughing at all of you when he's losing 10-15 games for whoever the hell he signs with next year, and for way too much money to boot.

70charger
07-30-2012, 01:01 AM
Jeez, you go camping and come back to this bull****.

I can't add anything that already hasn't been said, so I'll keep it simple. THE TWINS FRONT OFFICE IS FULL OF MORONS.

Well, I feel good. I've just been proven right. Anything that DPJ hates is clearly good for the Twins.