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greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 01:01 PM
Didnt see an individual thread on the 32nd overall pick.
Got his first start of year today for GCL goin 4IP 2h 6K.
Was 7 days since his last appearance when he started getting stretched out goin 3IP 3K.
Had also been 7 days since his last appearance before that....kind of curious I guess.
Overall
7gms 14IP 4h 1er 21k 2bb
Time will tell, but I believe he's the organizations best pitching prospect....is he top 10 yet (maybe 6th after big 5)??
Majority of other #1 picks have been moved to A ball for their 19 yr old season, so I expect him in Beloit next yr...not ELIZ but its hard to tell as MN hasnt drafted many high school pitchers this high for comparisons.

Vervehound
07-28-2012, 03:58 PM
Didnt see an individual thread on the 32nd overall pick.
Got his first start of year today for GCL goin 4IP 2h 6K.
Was 7 days since his last appearance when he started getting stretched out goin 3IP 3K.
Had also been 7 days since his last appearance before that....kind of curious I guess.
Overall
7gms 14IP 4h 1er 21k 2bb
Time will tell, but I believe he's the organizations best pitching prospect....is he top 10 yet (maybe 6th after big 5)??
Majority of other #1 picks have been moved to A ball for their 19 yr old season, so I expect him in Beloit next yr...not ELIZ but its hard to tell as MN hasnt drafted many high school pitchers this high for comparisons.

very high on berrios - one of the top arms in the system without much doubt, though the frame is of some concern. it's hard to think of an example of a twins pitcher that has spent their age 19 season in low-a so i think your statement is incorrect - everyone seems to be going through e-town these days (think boyd and mata on this year's team and salcedo a couple years ago). that said, the twins haven't used many high picks on prep arms in recent years so the sample size is small. at any rate, berrios is good enough that he could forge his own path.

nicksaviking
07-28-2012, 04:32 PM
Hudson Boyd was a HS comp pick last year. He's still in E'ton, of course he didn't pitch for the orgainzation last year.

Jeremy Nygaard
07-28-2012, 04:56 PM
Going with the precendence that's been set, E-town will be the likely destination.

However, JOB might have 50-60 professional innings under his belt by the end of the year and may even see a promotion this year. With that being said, I woukd be shocked if he headed to Beloit in April. But late May would be possible.

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 04:57 PM
If Mn wants to start competing, they need to start treating their high draft picks like EVERY other team.
Last yrs #1 drafted high school pitcher picks and where they are this yr as 19 yr olds
Dylan Bundy 4th by Balt....started in Low A, now in High A
Archie Bradley 7th by ARIZ....started in Low A (MWL) after 2 gms last yr
Jose Fernandez 14th MIA....started in Low A, now in Florida St Lg (High A) after 2gms last yr
Tyler Beede 21st by Tampa....didnt sign
Taylor Gurerrieri 24th by Tampa....short season NY Penn Lg
Joe Ross 25th by SD....hasnt pitched yet due to injury
Robert Stephenson 27th by CIN....7gms in short season, now in Low A (MWL)
Kevin Matthews 33rd by TEX....all year in Low A after 12gms in short season last yr
Supplemental Round
Henry Owens 36th overall by BOS....all year in Low A
Michael Fulmer 44th overall by NYM...all year in Low A after 4gms in short season last yr
Joe Musgrove 46th overall by TOR....2gms in App Lg after 9gm in GCL/App Lg last yr
Michael Kelly 48th by SD....7gms in Low A (MWL) deomoted to short season
Kyle Crick 49th by SF.....all yr in Low A after 7gms in short season last yr
Blake Snell 52nd by Tampa....8gms in App Lg this yr after 11gms in GCL last yr
Hudson Boyd 55th

2 of the picks above Boyd still in short season are Tampa's...which is interesting, do they go slow like MN??
Only 1 other (TOR's Musgrove) have yet to be promoted above short season (hasnt pitched in a month tho) & he was dealt to HOU in the 10 player deal last wk

diehardtwinsfan
07-28-2012, 05:21 PM
If Mn wants to start competing, they need to start treating their high draft picks like EVERY other team.
Last yrs #1 drafted high school pitcher picks and where they are this yr as 19 yr olds
Dylan Bundy 4th by Balt....started in Low A, now in High A
Archie Bradley 7th by ARIZ....started in Low A (MWL) after 2 gms last yr
Jose Fernandez 14th MIA....started in Low A, now in Florida St Lg (High A) after 2gms last yr
Tyler Beede 21st by Tampa....didnt sign
Taylor Gurerrieri 24th by Tampa....short season NY Penn Lg
Joe Ross 25th by SD....hasnt pitched yet due to injury
Robert Stephenson 27th by CIN....7gms in short season, now in Low A (MWL)
Kevin Matthews 33rd by TEX....all year in Low A after 12gms in short season last yr
Supplemental Round
Henry Owens 36th overall by BOS....all year in Low A
Michael Fulmer 44th overall by NYM...all year in Low A after 4gms in short season last yr
Joe Musgrove 46th overall by TOR....2gms in App Lg after 9gm in GCL/App Lg last yr
Michael Kelly 48th by SD....7gms in Low A (MWL) deomoted to short season
Kyle Crick 49th by SF.....all yr in Low A after 7gms in short season last yr
Blake Snell 52nd by Tampa....8gms in App Lg this yr after 11gms in GCL last yr
Hudson Boyd 55th

2 of the picks above Boyd still in short season are Tampa's...which is interesting, do they go slow like MN??
Only 1 other (TOR's Musgrove) have yet to be promoted above short season (hasnt pitched in a month tho) & he was dealt to HOU in the 10 player deal last wk

This chart is a bit deceptive. How many of these high picks are college and how many are higschool pitchers? There's a big different in how you bring these guys along. The college picks will have lower ceilings but are far more advanced. The high school picks typically need more time, which is why the CBA gives them an extra year before they have to be added to the 40 man roster. Moving picks aggressively has a lot more to do with how well the kid is doing, and it should be done in a case by case scenario. Otherwise, you end up like the Mets who constantly push guys and have so many of their prospects just flame out....


Oh, and I'm not sure I'd be ready to crown Berrios top 10 just yet... He's close, but given how far back he is, he's probably more of a 10-15 type pick...

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 05:38 PM
2010 high school first round picks (season they are 20)
Jameson Taillon 2nd by Pitt....didnt pitch first yr, all 2nd yr in Low A, all 3rd yr in High A
Karsten Whitson 9th by SD....didnt sign, went to Florida
Dylan Covey 14th by MIL....didnt sign, went to U of San Diego
Mike Foltynewicz 19th by Hou...APP Lg first yr (12st)......Low A last 2 but greatly improved this yr
Jesse Biddle 27th by PHI.....GCL/NYP (12st) first yr.....Low A all of 11'....High A all yr this yr....been very solid
Zach Lee 28th by LAD.....didnt pitch first yr.....Low A (MWL) all of last yr....High A & recent promotion to AA(where he has struggled)
Cam Bedrosian 29th by LAA....short season in 10'.....had TJ surgery last yr....all this year in Low A (MWL)
Cito Culver 32nd by NYY.....drafted as pitcher but moved to SS fulltime
Supplemental Round
Aaron Sanchez 34th by TOR....GCL/NYP first yr (10st)....APP Lg/another short season last yr.....Low A in 12(MWL)
Noah Syndergaard 38th by TOR...GCL first yr (5st)....short season yr 2 w/2 Low A starts.....all yr in Low A (MWL) this yr
Taijuan Walker 43rd by SEA....4 relief gms in AZL in first yr......all yr in Low A (MWL) last yr.....jumped to AA or all of this yr
Luke Jackson 45th by TEX....didnt pitch first yr....Low A all of last yr.....Low A (13st) before High A (7st) promotion
Peter Tago 47th by COL....didnt pitch first yr.....Low A all of first yr.....demoted to short season for all of this yr
Tyrell Jenkins 50th by StL....2APP Lg gm first yr.....App Lg all of 2nd yr (11st).....Low A (MWL) all of this yr

between the 2 drafts, I see Toronto is every bit as conservative as anyone.

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 05:40 PM
This chart is a bit deceptive. How many of these high picks are college and how many are higschool pitchers? There's a big different in how you bring these guys along. The college picks will have lower ceilings but are far more advanced. The high school picks typically need more time, which is why the CBA gives them an extra year before they have to be added to the 40 man roster. Moving picks aggressively has a lot more to do with how well the kid is doing, and it should be done in a case by case scenario. Otherwise, you end up like the Mets who constantly push guys and have so many of their prospects just flame out....


Oh, and I'm not sure I'd be ready to crown Berrios top 10 just yet... He's close, but given how far back he is, he's probably more of a 10-15 type pick...
They were ALL high school picks....no college picks in there

Salcedo & Mata for example were free agents who signed early so Im not including them ....only US high school #1 draft picks.

Slightly disagree that Berrios cant be that high as he's just drafted.....There arel high school pitchers in the top 100 the next yr after bein drafted...not a teams top 10/15 (Zach Lee was 89th overall by BAmerica before ever throwing a professional pitch & was drafted 28th) & Berrios is actually ahead of pitchers from the past few yrs, with the new signing period, as he gets a full season in to develop. He only gets/stays that high if he continues to dominate this yr obviously

nicksaviking
07-28-2012, 07:04 PM
Seeing as how the Twins have a total of 7 starts from 21-year-olds since Terry Ryan took over, I think it's safe to assume Barrios will also get the cautious approach. The starts in question were three from Santana and four from Liriano, neither of which was drafted by the Twins and both were playing in Latin American acadamies instead of American high schools. Additionally, had Santana not been a Rule V pick, the Twins would not have had him on the 25-man roster. If you want to throw in Pat Mahomes' eight starts as a 21-year-old under Andy McPhail, that's a total of 15 starts from 21-year-olds since the team moved out of Met Stadium.

I'm not getting my hopes up for early promotions for the high school arms.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-28-2012, 08:26 PM
Please don't compare berrios to Bundy. There is no reason to rush him at this point.

greengoblinrulz
07-28-2012, 08:52 PM
Please don't compare berrios to Bundy. There is no reason to rush him at this point.

dont think there was a Bundy reference, just every other high school first rounder before & after him for the last 2 drafts.

Jeremy Nygaard
07-29-2012, 10:51 AM
Terry Ryan says he's pitching his way out of this level.

greengoblinrulz
07-29-2012, 11:13 AM
Terry Ryan says he's pitching his way out of this level.

nice

greengoblinrulz
08-11-2012, 06:43 PM
First start for ELIZ tonight......so far 3 perfect innings with 4K
Night finished with 4IP 1h 1bb 5k....sweet

Mr. Ed
08-18-2012, 06:00 PM
http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120817&content_id=36873984&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_milb

Story on 11K outing Friday 8/17

minn55441
08-18-2012, 07:28 PM
This is what caught my eye from the article.

With numbers like those, the 18-year-old right-hander has made his debut season look easy. According to him, however, it's been the opposite. "It hasn't been easy," Berrios said. "I've been working really hard just to do well here so far. Everything I do goes toward my goal of making it to the big leagues someday."

Sounds like the kid knows what he wants and knows he has to work for it. It will be interesting to see how this maturity moves him through the system. He will be fun to watch over the next couple of seasons.

jokin
08-18-2012, 08:24 PM
This is what caught my eye from the article.

With numbers like those, the 18-year-old right-hander has made his debut season look easy. According to him, however, it's been the opposite. "It hasn't been easy," Berrios said. "I've been working really hard just to do well here so far. Everything I do goes toward my goal of making it to the big leagues someday."

Sounds like the kid knows what he wants and knows he has to work for it. It will be interesting to see how this maturity moves him through the system. He will be fun to watch over the next couple of seasons.

15K/9 so far, but the naysayers keep screaming: "Low Ceiling!" I hope they're proven wrong. As in the above quote, wha't not to like how he's handling himself so far?

Vervehound
08-19-2012, 08:50 AM
This is what caught my eye from the article.

With numbers like those, the 18-year-old right-hander has made his debut season look easy. According to him, however, it's been the opposite. "It hasn't been easy," Berrios said. "I've been working really hard just to do well here so far. Everything I do goes toward my goal of making it to the big leagues someday."

Sounds like the kid knows what he wants and knows he has to work for it. It will be interesting to see how this maturity moves him through the system. He will be fun to watch over the next couple of seasons.

15K/9 so far, but the naysayers keep screaming: "Low Ceiling!" I hope they're proven wrong. As in the above quote, wha't not to like how he's handling himself so far?

i don't think anyone is saying he has a low ceiling, just that there's not a lot of projection on the frame. two different things. berrios has no.2 starter potetntial.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-19-2012, 08:57 AM
This is what caught my eye from the article.

With numbers like those, the 18-year-old right-hander has made his debut season look easy. According to him, however, it's been the opposite. "It hasn't been easy," Berrios said. "I've been working really hard just to do well here so far. Everything I do goes toward my goal of making it to the big leagues someday."

Sounds like the kid knows what he wants and knows he has to work for it. It will be interesting to see how this maturity moves him through the system. He will be fun to watch over the next couple of seasons.

15K/9 so far, but the naysayers keep screaming: "Low Ceiling!" I hope they're proven wrong. As in the above quote, wha't not to like how he's handling himself so far?

i don't think anyone is saying he has a low ceiling, just that there's not a lot of projection on the frame. two different things. berrios has no.2 starter potetntial.

Basically this, if he did happen to have a lot more projection on the fram we would have been talking about an early 1st round pick instead of a supp round pick.

Hopefully he can become a special player for us, but there is a long ways to go obviously.

Roaddog
08-19-2012, 10:36 AM
I don't think he is a low ceiling guy. He has plus pitches and seems to be a hard worker. I'm not to concerned about the slight frame yet.

greengoblinrulz
08-19-2012, 11:34 AM
There are some 19 yr old draft picks that went from Low A to AA this yr......just saying that could be a goal for Jose next yr......but this is the Twins organization.

kab21
08-19-2012, 09:44 PM
There are some 19 yr old draft picks that went from Low A to AA this yr......just saying that could be a goal for Jose next yr......but this is the Twins organization.

1st - this is a silly goal.

2nd - does your list include any pitchers beside Dylan Bundy?

greengoblinrulz
08-19-2012, 10:58 PM
There are some 19 yr old draft picks that went from Low A to AA this yr......just saying that could be a goal for Jose next yr......but this is the Twins organization.

1st - this is a silly goal.

2nd - does your list include any pitchers beside Dylan Bundy?
looked but .......no:cry:


Needling some with Berrios, would be very happy if he starts the season in Low A & pitches the whole year there.
If he dominates tho....want to see a promotion.

Hard to compare last yrs to this yrs, as this yrs got in a full half-season of ball

East Coast Twin
08-20-2012, 07:06 AM
John Sickels also wrote about him yesterday at minorleaguebaseball.com.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/8/19/3253639/minor-league-prospect-note-jose-berrios-rhp-minnesota-twins

DPJ
08-20-2012, 07:26 AM
JO should be tearing apart short season ball. He doesn't offer the type of projection you'd like outta a high school pitcher, but his stuff is damn near maxed out and more then enough to handle the GCL and Appy League now.

Celebrity Weddings!
08-20-2012, 08:22 AM
BPro had an article series called "Raising Aces" about the mechanics of the pitchers drafted in the first round this year. Berrios showed up in the latest installment. It's behind the paywall, and has video that I couldn't swipe anyhow. But the writer said he had "better pitching mechanics than any player selected before him" and noted that "his release point extension is superior to pitchers half-a-foot taller than him." It was pretty rave-y.

Cody Christie
08-20-2012, 08:23 AM
Love this kid. It is going to be fun to watch his rise over the next few seasons.

Mauerzy4Prez
08-20-2012, 08:31 AM
John Sickels also wrote about him yesterday at minorleaguebaseball.com.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/8/19/3253639/minor-league-prospect-note-jose-berrios-rhp-minnesota-twins

"Overall, in 25.2 innings split between Elizabethton and the Gulf Coast League, Berrios has allowed two runs (0.70 ERA), just 10 hits, only four walks, while fanning 43. That's right, 43/4 K/BB in 25.2 innings with 10 hits allowed." John Sickels.


Very impressive numbers and I am really excited to hear that he is being brought up as a starter. This guy has excellent mechanics, his throwing motion is consistent across his velocity and off speed stuff, and I am really looking forward to seeing him in a Twins uniform.

ericchri
08-20-2012, 12:55 PM
I always think back to articles I've read in the past about some topics (you'll likely notice that trend in my posts), and this one comes to mind when talking about someone like Berrios. It looks into some of the less obvious factors in what makes a pitcher's stuff look better than it might be at first glance. Things like "projecting out his frame" are nice, but there's a lot more to pitching, as everybody knows. Who was a better pitcher, Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez? Pointless debate, but you can't get much different bodies on two stud pitchers than those two.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tom_verducci/04/12/fastballs.trackman/index.html

Essentially, with fastballs, the extension forward before release lends the illusion of "hop", or maybe more simply just seeming faster than it is by having to travel less distance in the air after release. With curveballs (and sliders to some extent), spin speed has a huge impact. There's more information in there (and probably more in-depth studies I'm unaware of), but in essence what it comes down to is some pitchers just do little things differently (i.e. better) than others, and maybe with Berrios we'll have one of those, regardless of what size he may be.

TD Mac
08-20-2012, 04:04 PM
Projecting young pitching can be a tricky business. For example, Is Tyler Jones at Beloit a higher rated prospect than Zachary Wheeler? He has the projectable power arm to potentially be a top of the rotation starter, whereas Wheeler clearly has performed better at their current level. Berrios is dominating rookie ball, though is unlikely to dramatically improve his physical skills. That being said, his current stuff is pretty major league ready. So despite the fact that his ceiling may not be much higher, he still projects to be a top of the rotation talent. In fact, I would argue that his advanced control and mechanics puts him much closer to reaching that "ceiling". Have only seen him on film, but wouldn't be surprised at all to see a Baker-esque type accession for Berrios. Certainly he has the best chance of any pitcher we've seen in years to make the bigs by age 21.

drivlikejehu
08-20-2012, 05:43 PM
Or he could blow out his arm. That's the trouble with young pitchers- you need a lot of them to compensate for inevitable injuries.

TD Mac
08-20-2012, 06:24 PM
Excellent point and one I think the Twins have really tried to address the last few drafts. Though we've certainly been unfortunate in running into medical issues with Bashore, Tootle, Gibson and Hunt (brain?), I like that they've tried to add some top of the order and back of the bullpen type arms.

Boyd, Jones, Boer, Summers, and this year adding another 5-6 power arms is what really has me excited. Obviously they won't all make it, but we need to develop a few #1 and #2 pitchers as I don't ever see us being legitimate players in the FA market. Also glad to see we are looking to stretch some of those projectable arms into starting roles rather than relegating them to bullpen prospects as such an early stage of their careers. Despite Boer's difficulties this season, I think it's a sound philosophy, and one which allows a return to the pen if they aren't able to develop the pitches or psyche to be a starter.

kab21
08-20-2012, 10:06 PM
2nd - does your list include any pitchers beside Dylan Bundy?
looked but .......no:cry:


Needling some with Berrios, would be very happy if he starts the season in Low A & pitches the whole year there.
If he dominates tho....want to see a promotion.

Hard to compare last yrs to this yrs, as this yrs got in a full half-season of ball

I just get tired of hearing criticism about how the Twins move prospects along slowly. They are conservative compared to most teams but the recent prospects haven't exactly been dominating any leagues and rarely have made the Twins look foolish when they were promoted.

I also think you are way too optimistic about what an 18/19 yr old #31 pick (in a weak draft) should be able to do in his first season of full season ball. He's not Dylan Bundy and he's not Jose Fernandez. He was an outstanding pick and I'm expecting good things next season but acting like he will just roll through A ball like he did in the GCL/Appy league is setting yourself up for disappointment.

glunn
08-20-2012, 10:45 PM
John Sickels also wrote about him yesterday at minorleaguebaseball.com.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/8/19/3253639/minor-league-prospect-note-jose-berrios-rhp-minnesota-twins

Thanks for posting this link -- the article is very encouraging.

drivlikejehu
08-20-2012, 10:53 PM
Excellent point and one I think the Twins have really tried to address the last few drafts. Though we've certainly been unfortunate in running into medical issues with Bashore, Tootle, Gibson and Hunt (brain?), I like that they've tried to add some top of the order and back of the bullpen type arms.

Boyd, Jones, Boer, Summers, and this year adding another 5-6 power arms is what really has me excited. Obviously they won't all make it, but we need to develop a few #1 and #2 pitchers as I don't ever see us being legitimate players in the FA market. Also glad to see we are looking to stretch some of those projectable arms into starting roles rather than relegating them to bullpen prospects as such an early stage of their careers. Despite Boer's difficulties this season, I think it's a sound philosophy, and one which allows a return to the pen if they aren't able to develop the pitches or psyche to be a starter.

Throwing hard isn't enough. And it's also a lot easier out of the bullpen. Boer has only average velocity as a starter, Summers below average, etc. The Twins lag in every respect behind almost all other organizations. It is a complete disaster zone and no one should think otherwise.

darin617
08-20-2012, 11:28 PM
The real question that has not been asked yet is can he learn to pitch to contact instead of striking out most of the hitters?

I can't wait to see him make his MLB debut in 4 more seasons. You would hate to see the Twins rush a pitcher... So sad but probably true.

TD Mac
08-20-2012, 11:37 PM
Throwing hard isn't enough. And it's also a lot easier out of the bullpen. Boer has only average velocity as a starter, Summers below average, etc. The Twins lag in every respect behind almost all other organizations. It is a complete disaster zone and no one should think otherwise.[/QUOTE]

I agree that based on the sample we've seen from Boer, he would appear to be better suited to the pen (as
might Summers - though I'd like to continue to see him worked as a starter as I don't think he's pitched himself out of a rotation possibility yet). However, I don't think that Boer getting the extra innings this year will stunt his growth as a reliever, so I don't think the Twins lost anything by working him as a starter

Id like to continue to see them move some of those power arms into starting assignments if they have the complimentary pitches to support starting

kab21
08-20-2012, 11:50 PM
The real question that has not been asked yet is can he learn to pitch to contact instead of striking out most of the hitters?

I can't wait to see him make his MLB debut in 4 more seasons. You would hate to see the Twins rush a pitcher... So sad but probably true.

I challenge you (or anyone) to start naming names of Twins prospects that were unjustly held back. The Twins are conservative with promotions but they also haven't prospects that have dominated levels (other than appy league).

diehardtwinsfan
08-21-2012, 09:57 AM
The real question that has not been asked yet is can he learn to pitch to contact instead of striking out most of the hitters?

I can't wait to see him make his MLB debut in 4 more seasons. You would hate to see the Twins rush a pitcher... So sad but probably true.

I challenge you (or anyone) to start naming names of Twins prospects that were unjustly held back. The Twins are conservative with promotions but they also haven't prospects that have dominated levels (other than appy league).

In recent memory, there haven't been any. In the small market days, they definitely played the arb/super2 game... Guys like Neshek, Morneau, and Bartlett spent more time in the minors than one would have liked.... but that was quite some time ago.

Mauerzy4Prez
08-21-2012, 10:48 AM
Or he could blow out his arm. That's the trouble with young pitchers- you need a lot of them to compensate for inevitable injuries.

Really? I get being realistic and considering all possible scenarios, but we don't need to start putting bad karma on a guy that is already becoming one of the best pitching prospects in our system and is a teenager still.

kab21
08-21-2012, 11:23 AM
In recent memory, there haven't been any. In the small market days, they definitely played the arb/super2 game... Guys like Neshek, Morneau, and Bartlett spent more time in the minors than one would have liked.... but that was quite some time ago.

the arb/super 2 game is a different discussion. I'm specifically talking about the ridiculous arguments that 'if Trout/Harper played for the Twins they would only be in A ball right now'. There seems to be this myth that the Twins don't promote fast enough thru the rk/A/AA levels. If some had their way any decent prospect would be promoted after a month of decent production similar to what the Mets did with so many prospects. Aside from a couple of college pitchers like Slowey/Garza/Gibson there have not been any prospects (that I can think of) that deserved to be fast tracked.

diehardtwinsfan
08-21-2012, 11:31 AM
In recent memory, there haven't been any. In the small market days, they definitely played the arb/super2 game... Guys like Neshek, Morneau, and Bartlett spent more time in the minors than one would have liked.... but that was quite some time ago.

the arb/super 2 game is a different discussion. I'm specifically talking about the ridiculous arguments that 'if Trout/Harper played for the Twins they would only be in A ball right now'. There seems to be this myth that the Twins don't promote fast enough thru the rk/A/AA levels. If some had their way any decent prospect would be promoted after a month of decent production similar to what the Mets did with so many prospects. Aside from a couple of college pitchers like Slowey/Garza/Gibson there have not been any prospects (that I can think of) that deserved to be fast tracked.

On that I agree with you.

mike wants wins
08-21-2012, 11:34 AM
We'll see with Sano and Rosario, I guess, and maybe Berrios - not sure who else should move quickly right now (well, maybe some pitchers that we KNOW will be relievers long term). There was a study (on the internet, by BP or someone) about 2 years ago that showed the Twins promoted players slower than most every other team, but I can't recall if the conclusion was that they were slower as a strategy, or that the players weren't worthy.

old nurse
08-21-2012, 11:44 AM
In recent memory, there haven't been any. In the small market days, they definitely played the arb/super2 game... Guys like Neshek, Morneau, and Bartlett spent more time in the minors than one would have liked.... but that was quite some time ago.[/QUOTE]
??? Neshek appears to have been fast tracked. For Morneau and Bartlett, September call up from AA where they did not perform well, then they did well after midseason call ups after 1/2 season in AAA. Would you like to try again?

kab21
08-21-2012, 11:53 AM
We'll see with Sano and Rosario, I guess, and maybe Berrios - not sure who else should move quickly right now (well, maybe some pitchers that we KNOW will be relievers long term). There was a study (on the internet, by BP or someone) about 2 years ago that showed the Twins promoted players slower than most every other team, but I can't recall if the conclusion was that they were slower as a strategy, or that the players weren't worthy.

Sano and Rosario are definitely two guys that could potentially be fast tracked but even though they are having good seasons they are not dominating their low A this year. I don't have any problem with Sano staying in Beloit all season despite 26 HR's and a .900 OPS.

One could actually argue that Arcia has been fastracked. He's 21 with an expectation that he'll be in the majors by July next season. We're looking at 500ish AB's in A ball and 500ish AB's in AA/AAA.

Turd Furgeson
08-21-2012, 01:55 PM
In recent memory, there haven't been any. In the small market days, they definitely played the arb/super2 game... Guys like Neshek, Morneau, and Bartlett spent more time in the minors than one would have liked.... but that was quite some time ago.

the arb/super 2 game is a different discussion. I'm specifically talking about the ridiculous arguments that 'if Trout/Harper played for the Twins they would only be in A ball right now'. There seems to be this myth that the Twins don't promote fast enough thru the rk/A/AA levels. If some had their way any decent prospect would be promoted after a month of decent production similar to what the Mets did with so many prospects. Aside from a couple of college pitchers like Slowey/Garza/Gibson there have not been any prospects (that I can think of) that deserved to be fast tracked.


I definitely agree with this. A lot of people are very critical of the Twins promotion methods, but as you said we just haven't had the type of prospects that you aggressively promote. Arcia has been promoted fairly aggressively but there's a reason for that.

diehardtwinsfan
08-21-2012, 03:52 PM
??? Neshek appears to have been fast tracked. For Morneau and Bartlett, September call up from AA where they did not perform well, then they did well after midseason call ups after 1/2 season in AAA. Would you like to try again?

Yes apparently the free Neshek slogans that people adopted were because Neshek was being fast tracked. The Twins were in desparate need of pen help while he was absolutely dominating AAA hitters and they took their time calling him up. Morneau and Bartlett didn't perform well in their September callups and went back to AAA where they dominated. In Bartletts case, he spent 3 years there posting an OPS of .887, .864, and .779 while playing above average defense at short. The Twins, instead of giving him an opportunity, signed Juan Castro and wondered why they couldn't get the offense going. At the same time Morneau spent a half year in AAA following his demotion where he only had an OPS of .992 while Dougie M blocked him with his .700 OPS. All of these players could have been up sooner...

that said, if you actually bothered to read my posts, you'd have realized I was largely agreeing with the idea that the Twins are not holding guys back. I specifically mentioned these guys in terms of super 2 status, which is exactly why Neshek and Morneau were delayed (though I suspect but cannot prove there may have been other issues with Bartlett)...

Twins Twerp
08-21-2012, 03:52 PM
What is the point of promoting fast? I can see the downside.

Downside: Have to pay a player when he gets to Majors faster and is arbitration eligible faster.

PseudoSABR
08-21-2012, 04:34 PM
What is the point of promoting fast? I can see the downside.

Downside: Have to pay a player when he gets to Majors faster and is arbitration eligible faster.
Development. In lower stake games, it's easier to work on your game without worrying about results. Players like Dozier and Hendricks might be examples of players promoted too quickly...

drjim
08-22-2012, 09:30 PM
We'll see with Sano and Rosario, I guess, and maybe Berrios - not sure who else should move quickly right now (well, maybe some pitchers that we KNOW will be relievers long term). There was a study (on the internet, by BP or someone) about 2 years ago that showed the Twins promoted players slower than most every other team, but I can't recall if the conclusion was that they were slower as a strategy, or that the players weren't worthy.

The other team that is often thought of as being slow to promote is the Rays. And they actually have stud prospects worthy of quicker promotions. I think overall that is pretty good company for the Twins to keep.

Overall I think the conservative approach is generally smarter for development, allows for steady progress and the ability to have sustained success at every level. This is especially true the last couple of years when the Twins have been terrible. There is little gained from a player being overmatched in the bigs.

gunnarthor
08-24-2012, 02:01 PM
I still didn't see a Berrios adopt a prospect so, in today's BA hot sheet (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/prospect-hot-sheet/2012/2613951.html): "The Scoop: Few players from the 2012 draft have dominated in their pro debuts quite like Berrios. A supplemental first-round pick (32nd overall) out of Puerto Rico in June, Berrios has a 1.17 ERA and a sterling 49-4 K-BB mark across 30 2/3 innings between the Rookie-level Gulf Coast League and the Appy League. While Berrios is filling up the zone with strikes, he's also doing it with power, as he's shown a fastball in the low- to mid-90s that has reached as high as 98 mph. It's very early, but the Twins may have gotten a steal here."

righty8383
08-28-2012, 05:00 PM
I've heard that Berrios's chang-up is average. But watch this video (http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=23915007) about 32 seconds in he throws what appears to be a change up. Tons of movement on that pitch.

Twins Twerp
08-28-2012, 06:03 PM
I've heard that Berrios's chang-up is average. But watch this video (http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=23915007) about 32 seconds in he throws what appears to be a change up. Tons of movement on that pitch.

Nasty