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USAFChief
07-25-2012, 07:32 PM
I've been a Gardy supporter. I think he's often been blamed for things out of his control, things he did correctly that didn't work out, or things that maybe could be questioned, but were at the least defensible options.

No longer. I think it's time for a change.

While there are certainly things wrong with the Twins that aren't his fault, I think we've reached the point of admitting this team isn't performing as well as it could. I said it in the game thread today, I'll say it here...the stench of losing is beginning to permeate this organization and it has reached the point where you can see it on the field.

I don't think it's reasonable to say the team we saw play in Chicago this week is, day in and day out, prepared to play winning baseball. I don't think any player on that team expected to win today's game when the first pitch was thrown, and worse, although this is easy to say from 2000 miles away, I get the feeling nobody really gives a crap. I get the feeling pretty much every veteren is often going through the motions, right down to and including Mauer. I get the feeling losing is starting to be an accepted, and acceptable, outcome. Failure is the easiest thing to accomplish. Time and again we see the same simple mistakes, over and over, with seemingly no repercussions, and worse, no improvement. It's one thing to lack talent, it's another to not care. How friggin hard is it to know how many outs there are? To run the bases with smarts? To properly execute a cutoff throw?

At least some of that starts at the top. I know many will disagree, but I believe strongly that winning attitudes and losing attitudes make a difference. I have seen the effects of strong or weak leadership through my life, in sports and out, and believe that sometimes, groups of people achieve more than they really should. And sometimes they achieve less. It's difficult to put your finger on exactly why, but if there's a common thread in my background, it's the posivie or negative effect a few key people have on the group.

I certainly don't know whether a new field manager will at least get this team to play like it cares. IMO, it's time to find out. As a lifelong fan, I've lived through some tough years as a Twins fan. This feels different, somehow.

Maybe I'm overreacting to today's debacle, but in truth I've been thinking about this post for weeks. It's time for a change in the dugout.

twinswon1991
07-25-2012, 07:45 PM
This is 3 years in a row the team has essentially given up in the 2nd half of the year, which is pretty tough to defend.

I have been a Gardy supporter in the past but with the team likely going into a 3-5 year rebuilding period it may be time to clean house. I highly doubt anything will happen since Terry Ryan has been reluctant to fire the medical staff and scouting department that has failed miserably for years. If Ryan gives up his interim tag, expect a new GM to overhaul the organization top to bottom.

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 07:50 PM
While I may like Gardy, I do think that it might be time for a new voice, not that I know who that would be.

Twinsoholic
07-25-2012, 07:57 PM
I have to agree with the recommendation. I voiced the same call during the first week of the season--premature that early, I know, but nothing about the poor play this entire season is that different from asphyxiated, lifeless play at the beginning. While I'm pleased as punch about Willingham and Plouffe and Revere and that Morneau is hitting better, I still find this team uninspired. Gardy cannot be blamed for a lot of things, but sometimes a team simply has to replace the manager to refresh the team. If the Twins did replace Gardenhire, who would be a great candidate: someone from outside the organization? The new AAA manager? Jerry White or Scott Ulger? I believe that if the Twins do not make any major trades, they have the offensive potential to do very well next season if only they get a decent rotation--you can define decent how you like.

mike wants wins
07-25-2012, 08:00 PM
They throw to the wrong base, they lose count of outs, they get picked off, they just don't look professional. Either Gardy or the minor league coaches, or both, need to go.

Highabove
07-25-2012, 08:02 PM
Tom Kelly has stated that one of the reasons he retired, was that the Players were starting to tune him out.
Almost every Manager has a Shelf life. Talking about his last Season,Terry Francona stated "I was no longer getting through to my Players."
Almost every Manager reaches this point. There are a few exceptions such as Tony La Russa. The day may even come when Joe Maddon decides to move on.
This is not a bad reflection on Gardenhire, it happens to almost everybody. Even Bud Grant reached this point!!

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 08:15 PM
I have to concur. I think Gardy has been a fine manager, and has added far more than he's cost us. But after a while it's easy for a manager, for players, and for an organization to fall into a rut, to get hemmed in by comfortable patterns without even realizing it. That's the value in periodically bringing in new blood and fresh voices. I wouldn't make a move mid-season, but maybe the understanding on all sides that, after this season, it's time to move on.

drjim
07-25-2012, 08:17 PM
This is 3 years in a row the team has essentially given up in the 2nd half of the year, which is pretty tough to defend.

Considering the Twins were in second place in August in 2010 and ended up winning handily, a little unfair to suggest they gave up the second half of that year. But that's picking nits.

Chief, I am coming around as well. I have gone back and forth but I think I have reached the point were it is time for some new leadership on the field staff. It is not Gardy's fault that the pitching staff is atrocious this year, but I agree that the culture needs a change.

I also find it impossible to believe that the Twins can have another debacle, come back with the same coaching staff, and be able to sell that to season ticket holders. There will be significant losses to tickets sold no matter what, but might be able to save a few.

JB_Iowa
07-25-2012, 08:25 PM
I also find it impossible to believe that the Twins can have another debacle, come back with the same coaching staff, and be able to sell that to season ticket holders. There will be significant losses to tickets sold no matter what, but might be able to save a few.

Trying to decide whether that point calls more for an end of season change in manager or in-season (either resignation or termination).

If it is at the end of the season, they can say to ticket holders that they are making changes -- but they are asking them to take it on faith that the change will make a difference. And that is kind of where they were last fall with the change of GM.

If you shake things up during the season, there is often a "honeymoon" period when the team does better. That might give people hope. But then, if it doesn't materialize, it could backfire.

Not sure which way they should go. (But there isn't much doubt in my mind that this organization needs to be "shook up" -- both field staff and front office).

drjim
07-25-2012, 08:32 PM
Trying to decide whether that point calls more for an end of season change in manager or in-season (either resignation or termination).

If it is at the end of the season, they can say to ticket holders that they are making changes -- but they are asking them to take it on faith that the change will make a difference. And that is kind of where they were last fall with the change of GM.

If you shake things up during the season, there is often a "honeymoon" period when the team does better. That might give people hope. But then, if it doesn't materialize, it could backfire.

Not sure which way they should go. (But there isn't much doubt in my mind that this organization needs to be "shook up" -- both field staff and front office).

Good point, but hard to envision who could be brought in from the outside at this point for the rest of the season. Firing Gardy and having Ulger as the interim for the rest of the year strikes me as a recipe for even more disaster than the season will be.

Highabove
07-25-2012, 08:33 PM
Within a few days following the end of the Season, the Twins will start asking Season Ticket Holders for down payments on the following Season.

Badsmerf
07-25-2012, 08:34 PM
I've never really been high on Gardy. He's improved on a number of things that made him a bad manager to start his career with the Twins, but the things he did well are no longer there. JR should retire or find a real replacement and Gardy should be done. Get new people in here that wont let the inmates run the asylum. This team is a joke right now, people usually get fired for this kind of prolonged ineptitude.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 08:37 PM
Trying to decide whether that point calls more for an end of season change in manager or in-season (either resignation or termination).

If it is at the end of the season, they can say to ticket holders that they are making changes -- but they are asking them to take it on faith that the change will make a difference. And that is kind of where they were last fall with the change of GM.

If you shake things up during the season, there is often a "honeymoon" period when the team does better. That might give people hope. But then, if it doesn't materialize, it could backfire.

Not sure which way they should go. (But there isn't much doubt in my mind that this organization needs to be "shook up" -- both field staff and front office).

Gardenhire deserves better than to be fired mid-season. Yes, he has a poor record in the playoffs, but he's gotten us to the playoffs more than any other manager we've had. That in itself earns him the right to depart in dignity after the season is over.

nicksaviking
07-25-2012, 08:48 PM
If a move was in the making, Terry Ryan would give Gardy the option of saving face and resigning/retiring in the off-season. He may very well think it's time to call it quits anyway.

Highabove
07-25-2012, 08:53 PM
Gardenhire deserves better than to be fired mid-season. Yes, he has a poor record in the playoffs, but he's gotten us to the playoffs more than any other manager we've had. That in itself earns him the right to depart in dignity after the season is over.

I agree,
Ryan will not consider removing Gardenhire during the Season.
Ryan could be ordered by the Pohlad's to make a change but I doubt it.
They are still achieving their main goal by making big Money this Summer.

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 08:54 PM
I guess I should have added to my original post: I doubt any change is even under consideration. I just think it should be.

As for timing, if it were to be done, IMO it should be done immediately. I agree it's kind of harsh to let Gardy go midseason, but this is the big leagues. Managers are hired to be fired, and they know that going in. Let Ulger finish out the season and start the search for a new manager immediately. If you don't find one before the season ends, fine, fill the position after the season.

Pius Jefferson
07-25-2012, 09:56 PM
The Twins managed to right the ship enough to play .500 ball. That kind of put talk of firing Gardy and or the coaching staff on the back-burner. I think the talk will return if things really fall apart like they did last year.

powrwrap
07-25-2012, 10:09 PM
I'm starting to come around to the idea of replacing Gardy as well. The players have become too comfortable with him. Gardy seems tired. You can only tell players to make the plays the proper way so many times and if they don't listen anymore you've lost the team. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in years past Gardy would discipline players that would miss a cutoff man, run the bases incorrectly, or miss signs. I don't think I've heard of anyone being fined or benched for anything this year. I don't think anyone has been in Gardy's doghouse this year.

Let him finish out the year, and please, please hire someone outside the organization that already has MLB managerial experience (I don't have a name in mind.)

birdwatcher
07-25-2012, 10:18 PM
This may shock some of you, but I don't object to the idea of replacing Gardy. I've always viewed him as above average at managing a clubhouse and about average as a game manager. I have always assigned no better than a 50% chance of improvement under a new manager. I'm seeing the strength of the argument that perhaps Gardy has worn down. His clubhouse management appeared to be sub-par last year, and his game results have been underwhelming for two years now as evidenced by all the mental mistakes. Managers have off-seasons toop. I still think he manages the pitching staff very well, and I'd give him solid grades again for this year in that category.

I DO believe that his biggest problem is this collection of somewhat heartless players. Too many of these guys know the trainers too well. The body language is often pathetic. My hope is that Terry Ryan, over the course of the next several months, finds a new home for the players they know already are not tough-minded. Do we really know who thet are? We'd probably all guess most of the same names: Liriano, Mauer, Morneau, Span, Baker, Valencia, And Casilla are some of my suspects. I get the sense that Willingham and Doumit are grinders. But I could be totally off base on some of these. Regardless, wouldn't you really enjoy watching a team that always appeared to be playing both hard and tough?

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 10:28 PM
What manager wins with this sad sack of pitchers? (with apologies to Scott Diamond). How do you discipline a player for continually making errors when there is no one there to threaten for his job. It happened with Valencia but there is no other position where that is even a possibility, Gardy is stuck with this mess and you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig.

I understand the sentiment on this and perhaps it's time considering how much upheaval this team is likely facing in the next 3-4 years at least. At the end of the day though it's just window dressing, Gardy ain't the problem.

mnfireman
07-25-2012, 10:34 PM
You gotta have bench players in order to bench players! While not a big fan of Gardy, he's trotting the players given him out there every day with hopes of winning. Monday night Liriano blows up, Tuesday night the bullpen s***s the bed, and today Blackburn proved again what a mistake it was to think he is a MLB player. That said, the defense and baserunning, once staples of the "Twins Way" and the days of the Piranha's, is horrible. Willingham is what we thought he was, a masher who's glove left a little to be desired. Revere also is what we thought he was, a fourth OF thrust into a starting role who's arm is exploited almost nightly, but runs down flyballs that no other player on the planet gets to. Plouffe has settled in nicely at 3B and Carroll is solid but spectacular wherever he plays. Mauer and Morneau are above average at 1B and Butera and Mauer at C are Gold Glove worthy. However, Span has stepped backwards both in the field and on the bases, Casilla is a mess, Dozier is, at best, inconsistent and Doumit, well he hits well and can catch the ball, unless he is in LF, where he doesn't know where to throw the ball. The starting pitching is crap, but thats on the front office, and the bullpen, well when was the last time Gardy handled a bullpen well. Oh yeah, the year he wore out Crain & Guerrier and Capps & Rauch were still good.

Highabove
07-25-2012, 10:36 PM
Keep an eye on Gene Gleen, Manager in Rochester.
Gleen was a rare outside of the Organization hire. Big improvement in Rochester this year. Has the credentials.
If Ryan does make a change next year, he will give more weight to someone in the Organization.

Gene Glynn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Glynn)

howeda7
07-25-2012, 11:16 PM
Zero-chance of a mid-season firing. Gardy deserves better than that and there's no point. If they collapse like last year, there's at least a chance of it happening after the season. I'm neutral on it. But unless they coax TK out of retirement, it's hard to get fired up about Scotty Ulger or Gene Gleen and that's probably what we're looking at.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-25-2012, 11:24 PM
I still don't think knee jerk firings solves anything. But maybe it's time to bring a more "hard ass" manager into this club. The amount of mistakes the past couple years has been an embarrassment. That said, I still think Gardenhire is a very good manager and one of the better ones in the game, it will be tough to replace him and often times the replacement won't be an upgrade, look no further then the Red Sox running Francona out of town to see an example. At the end of the day I say keep Gardy for another year.

This I do know:

Span needs to go, like right now. I don't know what the hell his problem is but for whatever reason he has looked like dog **** in the field the past few weeks and has somehow looked even worse on the basepaths then previously, his head is clearly not in the game. Someone said the "stress of trade rumors bothers him?" Well, at this point, I don't really care, act like a Damn professional out there ,sack up like a man and stop making boneheaded mistakes, yes sometimes things don't go the way you plan, get over it, your an adult. The guy has made Carlos Gomez look like a savvy veteran lately.

Butera needs to go, not that he is a bad person, doesn't do the right things etc, the Twins need to set an example that they need MAJOR LEAGUE caliber players at every position.

Alexi needs to go, trade him for a PTBL if thats all you can get, the kid has some talent but at this point he's a waste of a roster space and never going to get it together.

If you are going to have some below average OF playing LF, for the love of God at least make sure they know:
1. How many outs there are.
2. Which base to throw to in which situation.

It's one thing for Willingham to have zero range and misplay balls, it's another thing for him to throw to the wrong freaking base! That is stuff you learn in little league. I mean it was great he gave us 4 RBI and 2HR the other day, but when you are misplaying balls all over the place and throwing to the wrong base you are giving those runs right back.

Get rid of Blackburn: I like the guy, I thought he was a solid pitcher and as a fellow Okie I have always been his biggest supporter, at some point we need to just get rid of players who don't factor into usual plans from here on out.

Pray Capps can get healthy before the August 31st deadline and trade him for anything. Might as well see if Perkins or Burton can at least hold there own in the "save situations".

Ditto with Pavano.

I'm as big of a Twins homer as they come, but this last series was complete and utter garbage and truly an embarrassment.

CDog
07-26-2012, 12:09 AM
When it was said in the game thread today (as mentioned in the OP), I had my usual reaction. Hated the thought of it. But there was a difference in that feeling in that it wasn't as intense as in the past. Saw this thread and knew the topic and wanted to disagree as much as I could. Just couldn't really find anything there that isn't at least understandable. At the same time, I agree with some of the responses that a lot lot lot of what's gone wrong the last year and a half isn't on Gardenhire. How much is and isn't his fault is often guesswork. But I also am starting to wonder or even think that even if it's not a matter of blame--even if it's not his fault--that it's not something that would bother me as much as in the past if he were let go. And I can even think of a situation where it might be the right choice even if it's definitely not his fault. In any case, it's going to bum me out if/when it happens.

I will add that I do disagree that it should happen during the season. No reason for it, and just not right in my opinion.

And as much as I hate to respond to nonsense, I'm still me and feel compelled to mention that the 2nd half of this season hasn't really happened yet. The 2nd half of last year was awful, (but so was the first), and the 2nd half of the 2010 the Twins went 50-31. 50-31!!! And the year before that they went 46-36 and closed the gap to win a division. If you have to make stuff up to support your point, it's likely your point isn't all that strong.

TexTwinsFan
07-26-2012, 12:12 AM
While I understand Birdwatcher's comments regarding the Twins roster needing more players with toughness, I think it's directly linked to Gardy and his handling of young players. A lot of players that play with an edge find their way into Gardy's doghouse, e.g. Garza, Lohse, Valencia. It's also usually early in their tenor with the big club and at least half never find there way out of it. Even one of his eventual favorites, Cuddyer, was jerked around a bit before finally establishing himself. Thank goodness Perkins and Morneau pulled themselves out of the 1st/2nd year tailspin too. It might be a carryover philosophy from TK to tear down rookies before building them up, but the ratio of guys it appears to damage is near the top of the list why a regime change is warranted in my mind.

USAFChief
07-26-2012, 12:52 AM
And as much as I hate to respond to nonsense, I'm still me and feel compelled to mention that the 2nd half of this season hasn't really happened yet. The 2nd half of last year was awful, (but so was the first), and the 2nd half of the 2010 the Twins went 50-31. 50-31!!! And the year before that they went 46-36 and closed the gap to win a division. If you have to make stuff up to support your point, it's likely your point isn't all that strong.


Just to be clear...I didn't say anything about "second halfs." That was in a response from someone else.

glunn
07-26-2012, 02:22 AM
I am impressed by the original post and many of the subsequent posts. I agree that when the season is over, Gardy needs to move on.

johnnydakota
07-26-2012, 05:27 AM
Good point, but hard to envision who could be brought in from the outside at this point for the rest of the season. Firing Gardy and having Ulger as the interim for the rest of the year strikes me as a recipe for even more disaster than the season will be.

ulger,scotty ulger? just saying that name makes me vomit a little in my mouth...why bring or give this team to a gardy guy?
tk handed the team off to ronny"the waddler" gardenhire,who continued preaching the company propaganda...if you are going to make a change... start with "shoeless" david st pete (shoes cost money skin grows back free) then replace terry"queball"ryan ,the game has passed him by, he now is only the puppet selling the kool-aid. as for ronnie "the waddler" gardenhire, most sang his praise . to me he was a good coach , just not a good manager....time for him to be voted off the island and he needs to take his entire @ssclown posse with him ulger liddle vavra anderson.....as for replacing them , if im ceo pohlad, i would look at other teams, like tampa bay,and try and pry away some of there front office ...as we know jim pohlad wants to put the best product on the field as long as it doesnt take his time or money...

DPJ
07-26-2012, 07:13 AM
I could go on and on about my hatred of Gardy, but I'll save it for now.

Gardy's had a great run in Minnesota, hell I might love the 2002 MN Twins more then both the championship teams. But the time has some to a new regime to take over managing this team. Please not someone who was born and raised on "Twins Baseball" But a fresh outside voice who will bring something new to the organization.

roger
07-26-2012, 07:31 AM
I fully expect that Gardy will retire at the end of this season. I doubt that physically, he can take much more of this losing.

As for a replacement, A leading candidate should be Gene Glynn, the first year manager at AAA Rochester. Has ton's of experience coaching a couple long stints in the majors as well as coaching/managing in the minors. He could easily bring his two main assistants with him, Tom Brunansky and Bobby Cuellar. IMO, would be very solid manager to lead the team in its turn around that should begin next year.

mike wants wins
07-26-2012, 07:42 AM
This is not knee jerk, this isn't just about winning and losing. Seth and Howard have for several years pointed out that they are not fundamentally sound. If that is not on the coaches, what exactly is their job? Kc joyner did some research, in the NFL admittedly, that showed that the majority of coaches that were around a long time lost effectiveness ariund year 10. That seems to be the case here also.

diehardtwinsfan
07-26-2012, 07:54 AM
I've never been a fan of Gardy, though in 2010 I was ironically not on the fire gardy campaign (and I've been there in the past). At this point though, it does appear as though Gardy has reached his shelf life. I'm not sure he can have the impact in MN that he could have with another franchize, and to be honest he's never been one to work well with rookies. I personally think he would be an instant favorite and a good candidate to clean up that mess in Boston if he were to be let go (and that he's more talented to do it than many), but I don't think he can fix what's wrong here. I'd say he needs to go as well.

As for mid-season, I highly doubt it. If he goes it will be in the offseason.

Willihammer
07-26-2012, 08:43 AM
Who, then, should replace Gardy? I echo the chorus only if the replacement isn't another old fashioned thinker ie. Francona.

For starters, a replacement should at least use shifts. 4-5+ free wins right there.

TheLeviathan
07-26-2012, 08:46 AM
I'm not particularly passionate about this issue - I could go either way and there are strong arguments pro/con.

I'm curious if the return of Ryan makes this less likely or more likely. The more I think about it, the more I'm not sure which way that swings the pendulum.....

DPJ
07-26-2012, 08:48 AM
Who, then, should replace Gardy? I echo the chorus only if the replacement isn't another old fashioned thinker ie. Francona.

For starters, a replacement should at least use shifts. 4-5+ free wins right there.

They need to find someone who's younger, someone who can grow with the rosters. Who's willing to take the ups and downs of young talent, who's progressive and doesn't need someone who "handles the bat hitting 2nd" or believe in vet pressence.

Who's the dude with the huge beard on the Rays staff? EDIT-Dave Martinez

Brock Beauchamp
07-26-2012, 08:55 AM
they need to find someone who's younger, someone who can grow with the rosters. Who's willing to take the ups and downs of young talent, who's progressive and doesn't need someone who "handles the bat hitting 2nd" or believe in vet pressence.

Toby! Toby! Toby!

DPJ
07-26-2012, 08:57 AM
Toby! Toby! Toby!

I hear he's doing a hell of a job at Stout or whatever backwood Sconie ****hole he's at.

Willihammer
07-26-2012, 09:08 AM
Who's the dude with the huge beard on the Rays staff? EDIT-Dave Martinez

Can Martinez field his own coaching staff?

stringer bell
07-26-2012, 09:20 AM
Gardenhire has been pretty good at keeping the team focused, but there have been moments since the All-Star break where the team has resembled 2011 and that is a bad thing. I think it can be attributed to being a last place team with no chance to contend and some guys (particularly Span) feeling the pressure of the trade deadline. Gardenhire is a good manager and has gotten a lot out of his players through the years, but a change may be necessary. Certainly, the Twins could use a Latin American on their field staff.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 09:22 AM
Can Martinez field his own coaching staff?

Yes, no sense have the Vavra, Ulger and the rest of the Keystone Cops still around.

I'll take any disciples from the school of Madden.

Thrylos
07-26-2012, 09:23 AM
Interesting to see that there still is a 10% of fans who defend Gardy....

diehardtwinsfan
07-26-2012, 09:27 AM
Who, then, should replace Gardy? I echo the chorus only if the replacement isn't another old fashioned thinker ie. Francona.

For starters, a replacement should at least use shifts. 4-5+ free wins right there.


someone who is good with the kids....

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 09:51 AM
ctually the more I think about it the more I think they need to give him one more year. This year and last year aren't on Gardy, and at least with Ryan at the helm he was able to make some very nice moves in the off-season.

In reality the Twins never had a shot this year. Let's see what Ryan can give Gardy to work with heading into 2013 and go from there.

For all the people saying Gardy needs to go now, thats great. I have still yet to read one suggestion of a coach who would be a better replacement.

I don't see us bringing in Leyland, Joe Maddon, Terry Francona or Joe Torre to the Twins cities any time soon.

CDog
07-26-2012, 09:51 AM
Just to be clear...I didn't say anything about "second halfs." That was in a response from someone else.

Apologies if that was unclear in my post.

CDog
07-26-2012, 09:53 AM
Interesting to see that there still is a 10% of fans who defend Gardy....

I would imagine the % of fans doing what you call defending is higher than 10%. By a lot. And should be. There are lots of people and fans that are actually capable of rational, constructive thoughts on the topic, as has been shown in this thread alone.

jimbo92107
07-26-2012, 09:56 AM
I like Ron Gardenhire, too. But I think Terry Francona could turn this team around.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 09:57 AM
I like Ron Gardenhire, too. But I think Terry Francona could turn this team around.

If we can get Francona then by all means we should do it. I just don't see it happening as he will be in Chicago sooner or later.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 09:59 AM
If we can get Francona then by all means we should do it. I just don't see it happening as he will be in Chicago sooner or later.

He's gonna go back to the GM that fired him?

Boom Boom
07-26-2012, 10:01 AM
I would imagine the % of fans doing what you call defending is higher than 10%. By a lot. And should be. There are lots of people and fans that are actually capable of rational, constructive thoughts on the topic, as has been shown in this thread alone.

Rational and constructive thoughts = supporting lifetime contract for Gardy. Got it.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 10:02 AM
For all the people saying Gardy needs to go now, thats great. I have still yet to read one suggestion of a coach who would be a better replacement.

I don't see us bringing in Leyland, Joe Maddon, Terry Francona or Joe Torre to the Twins cities any time soon.

Just cause you don't hire a guy who doesn't have the track record of Gardy or any of those guys doesn't mean you're getting any less of a manager.

This is AL baseball, it's not that tough to manage. Just don't put Matt ****ing Tolbert in the 2 spot and be ok bringing your best reliever in in the 8th inning.

Reginald Maudling's Shin
07-26-2012, 10:13 AM
What's the difference who the manager is with starting pitching this horrible? Ideally the guy to replace Gardy would be someone who could take the team to the next level (i.e. win a playoff series). Now what's the point? They're not going to be competitive for at least two years, probably three, then at that point who knows.

OTOH, do you guys really want Gardenhire to be the guy handling the next wave of players like Hicks, Benson, Arcia, Rosario etc.? Do we want him choosing "his guys" and seemingly arbitrarily publicly trashing those that aren't "his guys" again? I don't, but I don't think Gardy wants to wait around until this happens, either. Let him retire after this season or next, at his discretion, with a little dignity.

Siehbiscuit
07-26-2012, 10:32 AM
Gardenhire is a very good manager. Period. BUT, he has lost this team. He will get another job and do well again. Terry Francona will be the manager for the Twins next season. Losing is extremely exhausting physically, but moreso emotionally. If you run out of emotional "energy" (can't get excited for games) you will play poorly. This is on the players as individuals, but this is difficult for coaches too. Gardenhire is not the only problem, but the best solution for the organization is a fresh start.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 10:35 AM
Gardenhire is a very good manager. Period. BUT, he has lost this team. He will get another job and do well again. Terry Francona will be the manager for the Twins next season. Losing is extremely exhausting physically, but moreso emotionally. If you run out of emotional "energy" (can't get excited for games) you will play poorly. This is on the players as individuals, but this is difficult for coaches too. Gardenhire is not the only problem, but the best solution for the organization is a fresh start.

Why in the hell would Francona want to manage a rebuilding team?

CDog
07-26-2012, 10:39 AM
Rational and constructive thoughts = supporting lifetime contract for Gardy. Got it.

Always fun when someone jumps into the deep end without a clue. Go ahead and read the thread. Don't be afraid. Maybe won't be as fun as the deep end, but also won't make you look so foolish.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 10:42 AM
Why in the hell would Francona want to manage a rebuilding team?

Yeah, I can't see it happening.
He will be with the Cubs soon enough. Also Theo didn't fire Terry, Theo was forced to fire Terry and then left town.

Boom Boom
07-26-2012, 10:47 AM
Always fun when someone jumps into the deep end without a clue. Go ahead and read the thread. Don't be afraid. Maybe won't be as fun as the deep end, but also won't make you look so foolish.

What, I get that you think Gardy should stay. It's myopic to think that there can be no rational argument to let Gardy go.

Brock Beauchamp
07-26-2012, 10:49 AM
Why would the Twins fire a long-term manager that the fanbase generally likes 2/3 of the way into a lost season?

Let him ride out the season and then re-evaluate in the winter.

Thrylos
07-26-2012, 11:04 AM
Why would the Twins fire a long-term manager that the fanbase generally likes 2/3 of the way into a lost season?
.

To make a statement that losing is not tolerated. THAT simple. If they do not, they practically say that they are ok with the product on the field. Wrong message.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 11:09 AM
To make a statement that losing is not tolerated. THAT simple. If they do not, they practically say that they are ok with the product on the field. Wrong message.

Please. They are losing but since the awful start the Twins have more or less been playing .500 ball since mid May. Right now the team looks like it will win between 72-74 games, while that is nothing to write home about it is important to note that will be 10+ games better then last year. There is absolutely zero reason to fire him in the middle of the season, if you want to root for a team that has knee jerk reactions and fires people at will I suggest hopping on the New York Yankees bandwagon, I'm sure they have room for ya.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 11:12 AM
if you want to root for a team that has knee jerk reactions and fires people at will I suggest hopping on the New York Yankees bandwagon, I'm sure they have room for ya.

And all that franchise does is lose games.

BTW what knee jerk reactions and quick fires have the Yankees made recently?

CDog
07-26-2012, 11:16 AM
What, I get that you think Gardy should stay. It's myopic to think that there can be no rational argument to let Gardy go.

You COULD actually read what I've posted in this very thread. You could. I'm almost sure of it.

TheLeviathan
07-26-2012, 11:16 AM
Right now the team looks like it will win between 72-74 games, while that is nothing to write home about it is important to note that will be 10+ games better then last year.

It would be really healthy for you to acquaint yourself with reality at some point.

mike wants wins
07-26-2012, 11:18 AM
How is it "knee jerk" to fire someone who's teams have not been fundamentally sound for years (howard and seth's words), and who's team will lose 90 games two years in a row? This isn't a one time thing, this has been going on for years (not the losing, the lack of sound play). You keep typing those two loaded words, but this isn't "knee jerk".

Riverbrian
07-26-2012, 11:22 AM
Gardy should not be fired!!!

I thank him for his years of service... I believe he is one of the top managers in the game and he should be recognized as such.

However, after the season concludes. I think Terry Ryan should suggest to Gardy that he step down and hopefully Gardy will go along with that idea. If not... Terry should pull the plug.

I know that another thread was just introduced stating that Gardy won't quit until a world series is won but I think a change in Manager and coaching. Fresh voices is a good idea and it has nothing to do with Gardy's performance.

I don't have any thoughts on who the replacement should be but it's time to roll the dice here.

Gardy didn't have much of a chance with the starting pitching this year or last year but in the end it comes down to competing for every game.

Every year there is a team that shows up and competes for a playoff spot that comes out of nowhere and has seemingly nothing to compete with on paper.

Take the Mets this year for example. I don't think the Mets will make the playoffs but you can't deny that they gave it a pretty good run. The Mets have David Wright and ??? The Mets pitching staff has been pretty good but you can't say that you looked at that staff and said it was going to be good. The 2011 Indians and D-Backs were teams that came together with what were thought to be less talented rosters. The 2010 Padres were a no name group that came together.

If you have the talent to make the major leagues... You have Talent... You can play this game. Now you have to strap it on and take pride in your jobs and go for it. I get the talent difference between Robinson Cano and Jamey Carroll. Yes... It helps to be loaded but you can compete with a team of major league talent.

162 games are a grind... You can't be perfect at all times but you gotta feel like you can win and that feeling has to come from somewhere. Gardenhire knows this but after 10 years of asking for something. It might be time for a new voice to start asking for it. In my opinion... The Team needs a ball buster. A manager who will have the players back and kick them in the ass at the same time. We need a manager who will kick dirt on home plate over bad calls and We need a team that's going to run over a catcher or two or Throw inside just because the hitter looked at them the wrong way.

This type of play was absent in 2011 and coupled with the lack of execution in 2011 made watching unbearable. The execution has been better in 2012 and the hitting as been better. There has been lineup improvement but I still don't see the hard ass play necessary to steal a couple of close games from time to time and the execution still has improving to do.

Bad pitching is one thing... But Bad Pitching gets worse with bad fundamentals behind them. I don't blame Gardy for this. I'm just saying that the players have settled or excepted some reality. Give me a dreamer. Someone stupid enough to think they can win.

I think it's time for a change and I hope it isn't a firing but if it's a firing... It's a hard ass move that maybe sets the tone for the rest of the hard ass moves that are necessary.

James
07-26-2012, 11:25 AM
I don't think it's a knee jerk reaction to bring talk about Gardy's future as manager. I don't think it would be a knee jerk reaction to fire him either. I don't see that happening before the season is over though.

There are several issues with the team. I think we all can agree to that. I think firing Gardy at the end of the season (or allow him to retire, which I think is how it will be announced) will send a strong message to the team and the fans that the Twins organization wants to build a winning team.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 11:27 AM
Bad pitching is one thing... But Bad Pitching gets worse with bad fundamentals behind them. I don't blame Gardy for this. I'm just saying that the players have settled or excepted some reality. Give me a dreamer. Someone stupid enough to think they can win.

How does Gardy continue to get a free pass from some people for the complete lack of fundamentals this team has showed over the last couple season?

This isn't a young team with a bunch of fresh from the minors position players. All spring training all we heard was getting back to the basic and spending extra time on the simple things. But yet vet major league players continue to make boneheaded errors and just stupid plays all over the field.

Brock Beauchamp
07-26-2012, 11:27 AM
To make a statement that losing is not tolerated. THAT simple. If they do not, they practically say that they are ok with the product on the field. Wrong message.

And you show a guy with 20 years in the organization at least a modicum of respect. It's not Gardenhire's fault that the starting rotation is in shambles.

Absolutely nothing would be gained by pulling a dick move and firing Gardy, other than making the organization look bad. The same effect could be achieved in the offseason by politely asking him to step down and doing it behind closed doors.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 11:28 AM
It would be really healthy for you to acquaint yourself with reality at some point.

I was saying there is no point to fire him mid season. It makes zero sense. If you want to fire him after the season fine, I understand the arguments. I just would prefer we have some superior option to bring in then just firing him to fire him.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 11:29 AM
I was saying there is no point to fire him mid season. It makes zero sense. If you want to fire him after the season fine, I understand the arguments. I just would prefer we have some superior option to bring in then just firing him to fire him.

I have a question Dave...what is a superior option to Gardy?

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 11:29 AM
How is it "knee jerk" to fire someone who's teams have not been fundamentally sound for years (howard and seth's words), and who's team will lose 90 games two years in a row? This isn't a one time thing, this has been going on for years (not the losing, the lack of sound play). You keep typing those two loaded words, but this isn't "knee jerk".

It is knee jerk if you suddenly fire him in the season after a bad series, wait until the end of the year, evaluate your options and then fire him if its the best decision moving forward.

This isn't a Childress type situation where the team has stopped listening to him, stopped trying for him, I have yet to hear one such issue this year.

TheLeviathan
07-26-2012, 11:30 AM
I was saying there is no point to fire him mid season. It makes zero sense. If you want to fire him after the season fine, I understand the arguments. I just would prefer we have some superior option to bring in then just firing him to fire him.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but holy christ was that a pollyannish reason for it. Even for you.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 11:31 AM
I have a question Dave...what is a superior option to Gardy?

Maddon, Leyland, La Russa, Torre, Francona, Mattingly, Tom Kelly, Showalter (maybe). I'm sure there are others, but nobody has thrown out a reasonable replacement yet.

Brock Beauchamp
07-26-2012, 11:31 AM
I have a question Dave...what is a superior option to Gardy?

Toby! Toby! Toby!

... I just can't resist.

mike wants wins
07-26-2012, 11:33 AM
Ah, well, see, I'd have fired him last offseason for the lack of progress in building young players up, and in playing fundamentally sound baseball. I'm ok with him keeping his job through the end of the year, but I can't think of a good reason to keep him after that.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 11:33 AM
I don't disagree with your conclusion, but holy christ was that a pollyannish reason for it. Even for you.

The point is, if you fire a manager mid season it is because they are clearly under-preforming by a very large amount and that by doing so it will hopefully cause the team to start playing well again. Are the Twins really under-preforming there skill set? Not really, most people said this would be a 90 loss team heading into the season, so its not like they were predicted to win 90 games and are all of a sudden playing like crap.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 11:34 AM
And all that franchise does is lose games.

BTW what knee jerk reactions and quick fires have the Yankees made recently?

They ran Torre out of town after one bad playoff series.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 11:36 AM
Maddon, Leyland, La Russa, Torre, Francona, Mattingly, Tom Kelly, Showalter (maybe). I'm sure there are others, but nobody has thrown out a reasonable replacement yet.

First off none of those guys are coming here. But why does the replacement have to have a long resume like the names you listed. A couple years ago no one knew who the hell Maddon was, but he worked well with the young talent in TB and now IMO he's the best manager in baseball. You can go find a smart and progressive manager out there that doesn't have the "vet pressense" you yern for.

Instead of a long resume the Twins need to find someone who can work with the kids coming up, won't play favorites and can take the ups and downs that come with young players. Something Gardy doesn't do.

Winston Smith
07-26-2012, 11:36 AM
Morneau is now the only Twin to have played in a Playoff win by the Twins. 2004 is a long time ago, with a lot of good players, 2 mvp's, 2 cy youngs, 3 batting champs and no playoff wins. Time for a change and after the season to save face is fine.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 11:37 AM
They ran Torre out of town after one bad playoff series.

One bad series...try again. NTM they offereed him 5 million to come back, Torree turned it down.

NTM it's not like Giardi has had any issues winning with that roster. Maybe it's cause the manager for an AL isn't that important. Fill out the lineup card and don't treat the pen like a idiot.

USAFChief
07-26-2012, 11:40 AM
The point is, if you fire a manager mid season it is because they are clearly under-preforming by a very large amount and that by doing so it will hopefully cause the team to start playing well again. Are the Twins really under-preforming there skill set? Not really, most people said this would be a 90 loss team heading into the season, so its not like they were predicted to win 90 games and are all of a sudden playing like crap.

It might be just me, but I think they ARE underperforming their skill set. Bad pitching isn't the only thing wrong with this team's performance. See original post.

mike wants wins
07-26-2012, 11:42 AM
Managers are super important...they are the leaders of the whole team. They coach, they fill out lineup cards, they keep guys working hard day after day (and much more I'm sure). They are no different than any other manager in a business. Some of us, clearly not all, think that he's failed at coach and lineup/strategy for a few years now. I've never questioned their effort.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 11:42 AM
One bad series...try again. NTM they offereed him 5 million to come back, Torree turned it down.

NTM it's not like Giardi has had any issues winning with that roster. Maybe it's cause the manager for an AL isn't that important. Fill out the lineup card and don't treat the pen like a idiot.
Lol, you have to be pretty dense to think the Yankees didn't run him out of town.

They didn't offer him 5 million, they offered him 3 million (a two million dollar paycut) where if he won the world series he would make 5 million, that was as disrespectful as offers come.

James
07-26-2012, 11:42 AM
Maddon, Leyland, La Russa, Torre, Francona, Mattingly, Tom Kelly, Showalter (maybe). I'm sure there are others, but nobody has thrown out a reasonable replacement yet.
I have thought of some people. I really have no idea how they would fit or if they'd be interested. I doubt any of those guys would come to MN, but you never know.

Ryne Sandberg - Baseball America's Manager of the year for 2011. I know other people are going to say his name, but it is known that he's looking for a major league manager job.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 11:43 AM
It might be just me, but I think they ARE underperforming their skill set. Bad pitching isn't the only thing wrong with this team's performance. See original post.

But are they under-performing enough to justify canning the guy in the middle of the season? IMO No.

Brock Beauchamp
07-26-2012, 11:43 AM
What's Paul Molitor up to nowadays? I forgot where he stood on the possibility of managing for the Twins when there were rumblings about it a few years back.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 11:45 AM
Lol, you have to be pretty dense to think the Yankees didn't run him out of town.

They didn't offer him 5 million, they offered him 3 million (a two million dollar paycut) where if he won the world series he would make 5 million, that was as disrespectful as offers come.

5 million base pay with another 1 million in bonuses.

5 million, which still made him the highiest paid manager in the game. What an insult and knee jerk reaction from the Yankees.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3069115

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 11:51 AM
5 million base pay with another 1 million in bonuses.

5 million, which still made him the highiest paid manager in the game. What an insult and knee jerk reaction from the Yankees.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3069115

I guess my numbers were off...regardless its still a complete slap in the face to ask the guy to take a paycut. Especially when its the damn Yankees!!

They ran him out of town, everyone up here knew it, apparently some rubes fell for it though...

Riverbrian
07-26-2012, 11:53 AM
How does Gardy continue to get a free pass from some people for the complete lack of fundamentals this team has showed over the last couple season?

This isn't a young team with a bunch of fresh from the minors position players. All spring training all we heard was getting back to the basic and spending extra time on the simple things. But yet vet major league players continue to make boneheaded errors and just stupid plays all over the field.

1. Complete lack of Fundamentals is embellishing a bit. lol... Sub-standard... I'll go with that. They still make the right play more times than they don't. It has improved from last year and improved a lot.

2. The Team is put together by the GM. The GM is in the process of changing things or at least I hope he is. Gardy is working with what he is handed. Although, I will not discount that Gardy has some say or I can assume that his opinion on players is part of the process so not a complete free pass from me.

3. You can lead a horse to water.

I think it's time for a change... at the end of the year but let's give the Gardy the respect he deserves and give him a closed door option of walking away.

Also, when I talk about teams like the Mets and Orioles this year over achieving based on the roster. The 2010 Indians and D-Backs. The 2009 Padres. I also believe that the Twins have been an over achieving team for the past decade prior to the collapse... The Twins typically have not been a team that anyone would consider loaded and they have been a tough team to beat in years past. Gardy should get some credit for that if people want to blame him for what is happening now.

James
07-26-2012, 11:53 AM
What's Paul Molitor up to nowadays? I forgot where he stood on the possibility of managing for the Twins when there were rumblings about it a few years back.
He would be on my list as well. He didn't really work out as a hitting coach for Seattle all those years ago, but who knows how well he would end up doing as a manager.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 11:54 AM
I guess my numbers were off...regardless its still a complete slap in the face to ask the guy to take a paycut. Especially when its the damn Yankees!!

They ran him out of town, everyone up here knew it, apparently some rubes fell for it though...

They sure did run him outta town by offering him a deal that still made him the highiest paid manager in the game.

Look at all the losing they've done since Torre refused that contract, I'm sure the Yankees are really regreting it.

Brock Beauchamp
07-26-2012, 12:02 PM
Also, when I talk about teams like the Mets and Orioles this year over achieving based on the roster. The 2010 Indians and D-Backs. The 2009 Padres. I also believe that the Twins have been an over achieving team for the past decade prior to the collapse... The Twins typically have not been a team that anyone would consider loaded and they have been a tough team to beat in years past. Gardy should get some credit for that if people want to blame him for what is happening now.

From 2002-2011, the Twins exceeded their Pythagorean expected record by 22 games.

That's pretty amazing, actually.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2012, 12:21 PM
They sure did run him outta town by offering him a deal that still made him the highiest paid manager in the game.


Your not very good at reading between the lines are you?

jctwins
07-26-2012, 12:22 PM
First off none of those guys are coming here. But why does the replacement have to have a long resume like the names you listed. A couple years ago no one knew who the hell Maddon was, but he worked well with the young talent in TB and now IMO he's the best manager in baseball. You can go find a smart and progressive manager out there that doesn't have the "vet pressense" you yern for.

Instead of a long resume the Twins need to find someone who can work with the kids coming up, won't play favorites and can take the ups and downs that come with young players. Something Gardy doesn't do.

What so many people forget is that this is exactly who Tom Kelly was when they hired him.

People that pine for the past tend to look at the end of a former career/success story and want to replicate the end, rather than the beginning.

DPJ
07-26-2012, 12:26 PM
Your not very good at reading between the lines are you?

Well I am dense cause I have the nerve to actually look up something.

JB_Iowa
07-26-2012, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE=roger;38091]I fully expect that Gardy will retire at the end of this season. I doubt that physically, he can take much more of this losing.
[QUOTE]

Honestly, I think that this is the one reason that Gardy's exit could happen during the season. If he is sick of it AND if the Twins think they need a change, it would be very easy (and understandable and believable) for him to use health reasons as a basis for his resignation.

And that is a bit sad because going out on a high note is always better than a low note. But I just don't see Gardenhire (or his coaching staff) as part of a potential turnaround.

I think Gardenhire could be a good manager somewhere else but I really think organizations need leadership changes. There was a reason the Methodist Church body used to rotate ministers about every 7 years. Sometimes you just need a new face in the leader's chair (or on the leader's bench).

jctwins
07-26-2012, 12:35 PM
Gardy would feel a hell of a lot better if he lost 50 pounds and went to a chiropractor to straighten out his back. I'm not even kidding when I say that. He needs to get his **** together healthwise, especially if he wants to stay in this job here or somewhere else.

JB_Iowa
07-26-2012, 12:48 PM
Actually there is another possibility that hasn't been mentioned (that I noticed) -- that Gardenhire announces shortly after the trade deadline that he is leaving the manager's position at the end of the season. That gives him "lame duck" status but I don't think that really matters given the mediocrity of this team.

It would allow him a "farewell tour" to everyplace in the Central. It would also allow the Twins to talk with potential managers without stepping on toes. Hopefully it would also allow the Twins to announce the new manager toward the end of the season -- possibly helping to stabilize season ticket sales.

It would give Gardenhire the respect and recognition he deserves for his service as manager to the Twins but would give the organization the leg up on locating his replacement.

twinsnorth49
07-26-2012, 01:39 PM
Why in the hell would Francona want to manage a rebuilding team?

Why the hell would we want Francona to manage our rebuilding team? If you want a new voice, don't start recycling retread managers.

twinsnorth49
07-26-2012, 01:41 PM
To make a statement that losing is not tolerated. THAT simple. If they do not, they practically say that they are ok with the product on the field. Wrong message.

Statement firings never really make that much of statement, that's a cliche.

twinsnorth49
07-26-2012, 01:50 PM
. Maybe it's cause the manager for an AL isn't that important. Fill out the lineup card and don't treat the pen like a idiot.
You're oversimplification of the job is kind of unmaking your point to replace Gardy. His handling of the pen hasn't been as bad as your making out and the umpires keep accepting his lineup cards so he seems to have that down.

I'm ok with wanting to replace Gardy but to make it out like anyone could do the job better than him is starting to ring a little hollow.

Kobs
07-26-2012, 11:53 PM
Gardenhire deserves better than to be fired mid-season. Yes, he has a poor record in the playoffs, but he's gotten us to the playoffs more than any other manager we've had. That in itself earns him the right to depart in dignity after the season is over.

How many bowl games?

twinsnorth49
07-27-2012, 07:10 AM
How many bowl games?

The same number as Glenn Mason.

rogrulz30
07-27-2012, 07:46 AM
I fully expect that Gardy will retire at the end of this season. I doubt that physically, he can take much more of this losing.

As for a replacement, A leading candidate should be Gene Glynn, the first year manager at AAA Rochester. Has ton's of experience coaching a couple long stints in the majors as well as coaching/managing in the minors. He could easily bring his two main assistants with him, Tom Brunansky and Bobby Cuellar. IMO, would be very solid manager to lead the team in its turn around that should begin next year.

Gardy specifically said in the paper yesterday he wants to continue managing this team next year, it is up to management to make that decision. In no way can I see Gardy retiring.

Thrylos
07-27-2012, 08:29 AM
Gardy specifically said in the paper yesterday he wants to continue managing this team next year, it is up to management to make that decision. In no way can I see Gardy retiring.

Gardy specifically said a lot of things in the paper (like saying "Cappy will be my closer" two days before he gave the job to Nathan last season) that were untrue. So his words needs to be taken with a grain of salt the size of the Dead Sea. He is not going to come in the middle of the season and openly say that he will retire. That is like retiring :)

CDog
07-27-2012, 11:03 AM
Gardy specifically said a lot of things in the paper (like saying "Cappy will be my closer" two days before he gave the job to Nathan last season) that were untrue.

What paper? My memory of last season was "they'll share closer duties" as spring training was wrapping up with Nathan being first choice, and Capps filling in when Nathan couldn't go multiple days as he worked back from injury. I also have as vague memory of Capps saying essentially that he understood Nathan had been there longer and deserved a chance to have the top role, so maybe that led to the change. But that's a fuzzy memory, so may be an invention.

USAFChief
08-25-2012, 06:09 PM
Anyone wanna revisit their take on this?

I am more convinced now than ever, it's time for a change...for all the same reasons I originally posted.

Ultima Ratio
08-25-2012, 06:31 PM
Anyone wanna revisit their take on this?

I am more convinced now than ever, it's time for a change...for all the same reasons I originally posted.

All depends on who's taking over. I never have nor ever will vote for change, just for change. I'd like to know the real alternatives before changing in order to know if it's progress. That said, in my head bounces several names whom I'm confident could get just as much or more success out of the current 25 men suiting up daily.

Seth Stohs
08-25-2012, 06:39 PM
I still believe that the manager has very little to do with the Twins' record this year. At this point, I would not be terribly disappointed with a change at the top. I don't think it will make the team better. I don't care who the manager of this team is right now, the record would not be any better. I don't think that a turn-around would help push the timeline of a rebuild any quicker. It would be change for change's sake, and maybe that 's OK. I definitely would not advocate firing the manager, but I also would not be against it either.

freightmaster
08-25-2012, 06:54 PM
The team has quit on him, his shelf life is over date, yes, fine manager for years, but the returning team will not play for him.

Lets get piss and vinegar in here..and work this teams ...... off....

John Bonnes
08-25-2012, 07:17 PM
If someone wants to research this, I'd love to see it....

What are Gardy's teams' records in August and September when they're chasing a playoff spot versus when they are totally out of it. From my memory, they have almost been historically good with the former and historically bad with the latter. Personally, I have mixed feelings about that.....

If I was going to a time to be really good, that's what I would choose. And it was a result of extra motivation or drive or whatever, then I want that in a manager when the team is good and I could care less about it when a team is bad. But I'll admit - it's hard to watch this team right now.

Meh. You know what? After thinking about it, I'm keeping him. The problem with last year was a nearly historic level of injuries. The problem this year is a rotation that has several #7 starters. As I watched Duensing get punched out today, I didn't blame Gardy. I blamed Duensing just like Im blaming a lot of these starters. It's not like they need any other motivation - they have a golden opportunity to establish a major league career. They just aren't that good. And Gardy can't make them that good. It's unreasonable to expect him too.

jctwins
08-25-2012, 07:17 PM
Anyone wanna revisit their take on this?

I am more convinced now than ever, it's time for a change...for all the same reasons I originally posted.

I couldn't possibly agree more.

JB_Iowa
08-25-2012, 08:06 PM
Well, I am one who believes in change for change's sake. NOT constant change but I strongly believe that introducing new talent, new energy and new ideas into an organization is vital.

10 years is about the "shelf life" of most leaders. They knew what they were doing when the passed the 22nd amendment -- 8 years is plenty for most presidents, same for governors, mayors and others. And 10 years is enough for ministers, school superintendents, etc. etc. etc.

Baseball managers aren't immune from that belief. Constant turmoil and change isn't good but some regular "turnover" in leadership ranks is very, very healthy.

Thrylos
08-25-2012, 09:29 PM
Well...

Here is the thing (and, yes, I am biased. I wanted Gardy out since after the one game playoff loss against the White Sox) :

There has been talk about "no scholarships" to players, and up to a point (unless those players had daddies who were former Twins' players) they did that this season. On the other hand, no scholarships to players and having the manager and his coaches being well tenured and unfirable, is a nasty proposition.

This team lost 99 last season. They are on a pace to lose 96 this season. There was a single change made last season: Bill Smith was fired.
Guess what? It did not work. Reality check: Deep breath: Depending on how many games the Twins lose this season, 2011 and 2012 will be the worst consecutive seasons in the franchise. Step back: I mean since the Franchise moved to DC from KC in 1901 to be a founding member of the AL. This is Historic Suckage.

They got to do something. Major Kudos to Boston for actually doing something. Hope the Twins realize that people care. But I am not sure that Twins' fans really care about winning more than they care about the perceived comfort of what familiarity brings, let that be Span or Morneau or Gardy or Ryan...

one_eyed_jack
08-25-2012, 09:30 PM
My thoughts on this:

1) I've generally been a Gardy supporter, and I think he's a good manager, and he deserves some credit for keeping the team consistently competitive for a good stretch. However, I think it might be time for a change. Sometimes when the same voice has been speaking too long, people just stop listening. I don't know that this is the case here, but it sure doesn't feel the same as it did a few years ago.

2) That said, the impact of the manager on wins and losses is often highly overrated in these parts. You'd think this were a video game and Gardy were holding the controller. I think replacing Gardy may be a better move than keeping him, but it's silly to think that another manager is going to do all that much better with this roster.

3) I wonder if Gardy isn't ready for a change too. He's looked frustrated and defeated towards the end of the last couple of seasons. Maybe he's ready for a new managerial gig, I'm sure he'd get offers if he were available.

COtwin
08-25-2012, 10:30 PM
6 and 21. In the playoffs. That says it all. He is an average manager who at times has gotten his teams to play well. But never has he excelled when it mattered most. What's the point of keeping someone around who can't get is to the series much less help us win it all. Gardy was supposed to be the fiery one compared to TK. But every year since 01? we have gone out with a whimper.

johnnydakota
08-25-2012, 10:56 PM
I have to agree with the recommendation. I voiced the same call during the first week of the season--premature that early, I know, but nothing about the poor play this entire season is that different from asphyxiated, lifeless play at the beginning. While I'm pleased as punch about Willingham and Plouffe and Revere and that Morneau is hitting better, I still find this team uninspired. Gardy cannot be blamed for a lot of things, but sometimes a team simply has to replace the manager to refresh the team. If the Twins did replace Gardenhire, who would be a great candidate: someone from outside the organization? The new AAA manager? Jerry White or Scott Ulger? I believe that if the Twins do not make any major trades, they have the offensive potential to do very well next season if only they get a decent rotation--you can define decent how you like.

mike redmond, gary gaetti?pr perhaps francona

B Richard
08-25-2012, 11:25 PM
6 and 21. In the playoffs. That says it all. He is an average manager who at times has gotten his teams to play well. But never has he excelled when it mattered most. What's the point of keeping someone around who can't get is to the series much less help us win it all. Gardy was supposed to be the fiery one compared to TK. But every year since 01? we have gone out with a whimper.

Very true. The regular season is important, yes, but the playoffs are where champions are crowned. I really hope that most fans aren't happy to just sit around and gawk at AL Central Champion banners. It's not all Gardy's fault, but I would welcome any change that might clear out the haze of complacency I fear has hovered over the clubhouse.

B Richard
08-25-2012, 11:42 PM
Well, I am one who believes in change for change's sake. NOT constant change but I strongly believe that introducing new talent, new energy and new ideas into an organization is vital.

10 years is about the "shelf life" of most leaders. They knew what they were doing when the passed the 22nd amendment -- 8 years is plenty for most presidents, same for governors, mayors and others. And 10 years is enough for ministers, school superintendents, etc. etc. etc.

Baseball managers aren't immune from that belief. Constant turmoil and change isn't good but some regular "turnover" in leadership ranks is very, very healthy.

Well said and excellent analogy- I've often argued that such a philosophy should also be applied to corporations and the private sector at large.

If I had one word to describe the Twins the past couple seasons, without using profanity, I would choose "stagnant." Losing is certainly not all Gardy's fault, but sometimes in business you have to cut ties and move forward to get the results you want. Gardy should be let go after this season to inject new life and change the perception of this team. The organization still needs to put a more talented group on the field, no doubt, but Gardy needs to be replaced as part of an effort to revitalize this organization and get back to the promised land.

BHtwins
08-26-2012, 12:08 AM
Gardy has been losing this team since "his" class of 2001 players started entering free agency.

Torii, AJ, Doug M, Cuddyer etc etc were all rah rah fiery type players who probably responded to the stuff Gardy shovels.

Compare that group to Mauer, Morneau and to a lesser extent Span who all are cold-blooded professionals. This team since 2008-2009 is a completely different animal then the 2002-2005 Twins.

A great leader can change and adapt to what motivates his charges. I kinda think Gardy started buying his own press clippings a few years back and has shown an unwillingness to adapt to his teams personality.

old nurse
08-26-2012, 12:08 AM
I doubt that Tony Larussa and Dave Duncan would have a much better record with this bunch. Change for the sake of change will only happen if the Twins believe it will result in fannies in the seat. I don't think Molitor wants the job. Names with recognition to the Twins fans and winning records as a manager are few and far between.
Gaetti manager, Redman bench coach, Viola pitching coach, Bruno hitting, Al Newman first base, Liddle and Stelly stay. All ex Twin coaches for the homers. All with some degree of experience. BTW Gman only if he comes back as the Rat

old nurse
08-26-2012, 12:11 AM
I still think the major problem with this team is that the highest paid players are not the type that will carry a team on their backs. They have played well, but not the type that will take over. No coach will win until they get a leader out of the position players.

USAFChief
08-26-2012, 04:49 PM
If someone wants to research this, I'd love to see it....

What are Gardy's teams' records in August and September when they're chasing a playoff spot versus when they are totally out of it. From my memory, they have almost been historically good with the former and historically bad with the latter. Personally, I have mixed feelings about that.....

If I was going to a time to be really good, that's what I would choose. And it was a result of extra motivation or drive or whatever, then I want that in a manager when the team is good and I could care less about it when a team is bad. But I'll admit - it's hard to watch this team right now.

Meh. You know what? After thinking about it, I'm keeping him. The problem with last year was a nearly historic level of injuries. The problem this year is a rotation that has several #7 starters. As I watched Duensing get punched out today, I didn't blame Gardy. I blamed Duensing just like Im blaming a lot of these starters. It's not like they need any other motivation - they have a golden opportunity to establish a major league career. They just aren't that good. And Gardy can't make them that good. It's unreasonable to expect him too.

There is more wrong with the way the Twins play than just the starting pitching.

It's not entirely Gardy's job to "make them good"--although, in the end, who else's job is it?--but it certainly IS his job to get them prepared to play the best they can. To get them to come to the ballpark each day expecting to win, and prepared to do what it takes to win. To consistently get the most from the players he has. Make good lineup decisions, make good pitching decisions.

I no longer see any of that on a regular basis. The product on the field is not only losing because of talent, it's also losing because losing has become the norm. Losing has become expected.

Losing, or winning, is not entirely about talent.

I thank Gardy for a good decade. He was, in the past, a good manager, and the right man for the job. I've defended him on many issues, in many places. That doesn't mean lifetime tenure should be a reward for that.

SpantheMan
08-26-2012, 06:07 PM
If Gardy really isn't getting through to his players, then its time for a change. If thats not the problem, then its not his fault and he can't really do anything to make the pitching better

notoriousgod71
08-26-2012, 06:17 PM
At least we don't have Valentine.

JP3700
08-26-2012, 10:19 PM
Let me start off by saying I haven't read all the posts so I may be repeating a couple of points. I've been fuming about Gardy's poor decisions for years now but to be honest I've never gone on forums til now and am still a newbie at this.

Today just really ticked me off. Just another game where Gardy almost lost the game. Winning a 6-2 game in where we've lost 5 in a row and 14 of 16 in desperate need of a win.. heading back home.. he puts in Jeff Gray to pitch against the heart of the order of the best lineup in the majors. Not only is it the heart of the order.. The first 2 batters are left handed batters. As a fan even I know how bad Gray is against left handers(OPS over .1000!!!!!) (he is actually respectable against right handers). Knowing that the available pitchers were Fien, Gray, Burton, and Perkins wouldn't it make sense to line up your better middle reliever against the heart of the order and use Gray against the bottom of the lineup? Instead Gray gets all the fault.. Which ticks me off even more. We all know he's not a good pitcher.. But it isn't his fault he's on the roster. So while he is on the roster.. It's the manager's job to put his players in spots where he has the best chance to succeed.

How many times in close games do we not see Glen Perkins.. and then a day or two later we see him in a non contested game because he needs work. His last 5 appearances before today have been in games where we lost by 4 runs or more! We can't get a sacrifice bunt down to save our life, we're terrible at situational hitting, and we're constantly making bonehead plays. I can go on and on but I've already said too much. The Astros canned their manager for having the worst record in the NL.. Well we have the worst record in the AL and have double the payroll! At some point shouldn't the manager be held accountable?

birdwatcher
08-27-2012, 08:45 AM
The only statement firing Gardy in mid-season would make is that you are interested in humiliating him, which means you're a prick.

So yes, let's string him up. While we're at it, let's string that racist Dick Bremer up too.