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Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 10:40 AM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?834-Twins-vs-White-Sox-07-25-2012-1-10pm

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 11:32 AM
Twins:
Span CF
Revere RF
Mauer C
Willingham DH
Morneau 1B
Doumit LF
Dozier SS
Casilla 2B
Carroll 3B
(Blackburn P)

Hawk Harrelsons:
De Aza CF
Youkilis 3B
Dunn 1B
Konerko DH
Rios RF
Ramirez SS
Viciedo LF
Flowers C
Beckham 2B
(Peavy P)

DPJ
07-25-2012, 11:47 AM
Over/Under on IP by Blackburn

2.2

stringer bell
07-25-2012, 11:50 AM
When Dunn hit Robertson's slider out last night, I said uh-oh. The pitch was on the outside corner at the knees and he jerked it out with room to spare. The Sox seem to be fearless about getting pitched inside and are taking pitches on the outside corner deep. Blackburn has to pitch inside effectively or it will be batting practice.

jokin
07-25-2012, 12:16 PM
Twins:
Span CF
Revere RF
Mauer C
Willingham DH
Morneau 1B
Doumit LF
Dozier SS
Casilla 2B
Carroll 3B
(Blackburn P)

Hawk Harrelsons:
De Aza CF
Youkilis 3B
Dunn 1B
Konerko DH
Rios RF
Ramirez SS
Viciedo LF
Flowers C
Beckham 2B
(Peavy P)

So much for reports stating that Plouffe would, once again, "expected to be available tomorrow"....

That bottom third of the lineup day-after-day is downright depressing.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 12:22 PM
I assume nobody is surprised that Willingham is DHing after his field performance yesterday.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 12:24 PM
So much for reports stating that Plouffe would, once again, "expected to be available tomorrow"....

That bottom third of the lineup day-after-day is downright depressing.

You know it's Twins Baseball to have a guy be day-to-day and sit on the bench for a week, wasting a roster spot only to go on the DL a few days after.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 12:39 PM
Over/Under on when Plouffe is actually DL'd?

Wednesday

I take over and we see Plouffe again in September.

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 12:54 PM
Over/Under on when Plouffe is actually DL'd?

Wednesday

I take over and we see Plouffe again in September.

They have already waited too long to send Plouffe to the DL, bet he comes back this weekend after sitting on the bench for a week.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 01:22 PM
Well that was promising.

CDog
07-25-2012, 01:23 PM
In the pregame, Gardenhire said they were going to give Plouffe tomorrow and if he couldn't swing, he was going to the DL.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-25-2012, 01:23 PM
This **** gets old.

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 01:23 PM
Aaahhhhhhhhhhhh I accidentally turned on the Sox broadcast!

My ears! My ears!

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 01:23 PM
Impressive.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 01:25 PM
Aaahhhhhhhhhhhh I accidentally turned on the Sox broadcast!

My ears! My ears!

I'd rather hear Hawk's Southern fried hick-ass then DickBert continue to make excuses for the Twins and putting down Dunn after he hits another HR against them.

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 01:25 PM
I'd rather hear Hawk's Southern fried hick-ass then DickBert continue to make excuses for the Twins and putting down Dunn after he hits another HR against them.

No, you wouldn't. Hawk is ear cancer while DickBert are just a little dense.

stringer bell
07-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Well that was promising.Very similar innings. I expect the Sox to match or exceed one run in the first.

Auto7
07-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Doumit's in left?!?! Hopefully it goes better than that spring training game i watched vs boston. Either way, lets go nicky

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Christ lately if he's not hitting it out he's hitting into double plays. Way to make him work Hammer.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 01:27 PM
No, you wouldn't. Hawk is ear cancer while DickBert are just a little dense.

I don't mind Hawk at all, maybe cause it's only get to hear it 3-4 times a hear on those WGN games. But I like him, kind refreshing in a weird kinda way.

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 01:29 PM
I don't mind Hawk at all, maybe cause it's only get to hear it 3-4 times a hear on those WGN games. But I like him, kind refreshing in a weird kinda way.

You like him because you're a sadist.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 01:30 PM
You like him because you're a sadist.


Well I continue to watch Twins Baseball so I guess you're right.

Auto7
07-25-2012, 01:30 PM
Well, good first inning for blacky.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 01:32 PM
3 flies outs for Blackburn...that's always a good sign for Blackie.

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 01:33 PM
In the pregame, Gardenhire said they were going to give Plouffe tomorrow and if he couldn't swing, he was going to the DL.

That sounds vaguely familiar.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 01:34 PM
That sounds vaguely familiar.

Yes, but it can't possibly be the fault of the organization. No one has quoted them in the paper saying "Yeah...we suck" so it's probably not true.

Auto7
07-25-2012, 01:34 PM
3 flies outs for Blackburn...that's always a good sign for Blackie.

Bu-but i mean they only went 350 feet and not 450 feet.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 01:38 PM
Bu-but i mean they only went 350 feet and not 450 feet.

Be patient, it's only the 1st.

CDog
07-25-2012, 01:41 PM
Yes, but it can't possibly be the fault of the organization. No one has quoted them in the paper saying "Yeah...we suck" so it's probably not true.

Careful you don't pull a muscle. Stretch out well before reaching that far.

Auto7
07-25-2012, 01:41 PM
Be patient, it's only the 1st.

Angel hernandez apparently wants this game to be done early.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 01:44 PM
Konerko's SO should be credited to the ump, not Blackie.

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 01:45 PM
Well, there goes the perfect game.

CDog
07-25-2012, 01:45 PM
Did Dozier get shot on that play?!?!

Auto7
07-25-2012, 01:46 PM
Here it comes.

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 01:46 PM
Well, there goes the no hitter.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 01:46 PM
Impressive.

Boom Boom
07-25-2012, 01:46 PM
I don't mind Hawk at all, maybe cause it's only get to hear it 3-4 times a hear on those WGN games. But I like him, kind refreshing in a weird kinda way.

I feel like I'd really hate Hawk if I was a White Sox fan and he called every one of my team's games. But from the outside looking in, he's such a clownish homer that it's hard not to be entertained, especially when the Sox are losing.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 01:47 PM
Did Dozier get shot on that play?!?!
Looked like the ball bounced completely the other way,

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 01:47 PM
Well, there goes the shutout.

Edit: on an 0-2 pitch, no less.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 01:48 PM
I feel like I'd really hate Hawk if I was a White Sox fan and he called every one of my team's games. But from the outside looking in, he's such a clownish homer that it's hard not to be entertained, especially when the Sox are losing.

After living in Chicago for a few years, I can confirm this is very much true. Even many White Sox fans acknowledge how unbearable he can be.

Auto7
07-25-2012, 01:48 PM
Ah god.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 01:49 PM
Twins way defense.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 01:49 PM
Well, back to reality Nick.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 01:49 PM
I see that PitchFX has really helped Blackie's stuff.

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 01:50 PM
This is just painful...

CDog
07-25-2012, 01:53 PM
Looked like the ball bounced completely the other way,

I thought Coomer's description that it "exploded when it hit the dirt" was very...well, descriptive.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 02:00 PM
That first pitch ball to De Aza was the same pitch that rung up Casilla. Got it.

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 02:01 PM
I thought Coomer's description that it "exploded when it hit the dirt" was very...well, descriptive.

This is the major leagues. That ball needs to be knocked down at least.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 02:03 PM
This is the major leagues. That ball needs to be knocked down at least.
Yep

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 02:03 PM
I guess the Cuellar magic pixie dust is only good for one game.

CDog
07-25-2012, 02:05 PM
This is the major leagues. That ball needs to be knocked down at least.

Agree. And for sure for sure for sure can't end up a double.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:08 PM
I am so happy to see this continue to happen to Blackburn cause I wish nothing but bad things apon him.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 02:08 PM
Did anyone really think Doumit would catch that? Alligator arms. Surprised he even got there. Not that it's his fault that he's playing out of position.

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 02:08 PM
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 02:10 PM
The stench of losing is really starting to permeate this organization. They appear to be going thru the motions.

I have been a Gardy defender, but at this point I think it's time for a new voice.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 02:10 PM
For his next trick Doumit is going to take 1st base on 3 balls.

CDog
07-25-2012, 02:11 PM
I am so happy to see this continue to happen to Blackburn cause I wish nothing but bad things apon him.

The mark of any good fan.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 02:11 PM
The stench of losing is really starting to permeate this organization. They appear to be going thru the motions.

I have been a Gardy defender, but at this point I think it's time for a new voice.

Let's start by hiring an elementary teacher - before they do anything else they need to learn how to count to three.

Highabove
07-25-2012, 02:12 PM
Disgraceful

Disappointment with Domit.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 02:12 PM
The mark of any good fan.
But how can anyone be a Blackburn fan?

CDog
07-25-2012, 02:13 PM
Thank the heavens the inning ended and ended that train of thought from Bremer. Or train wreck of thought. Wow, that was uncomfortable for me. And I don't know that I've ever really had too much to say about him before.

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 02:14 PM
But how can anyone be a Blackburn fan?

If they are fans of the opposing team?

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 02:14 PM
I am so happy to see this continue to happen to Blackburn cause I wish nothing but bad things apon him.
Whether you like it or not, he's going to be a starter again for us next year. You know that, right?

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:14 PM
The mark of any good fan.

Cause any real fan of the Twins should hate Nick Blackburn, he's everything that's wrong with this teams pitching philosophy.

I'd rather cheer for wife beating Brett Meyers then Nick Blackburn.

CDog
07-25-2012, 02:16 PM
Between last night and today, I'm wondering if there's some sort of force in left field. Maybe some weird magnetism wreaking havoc with anyone out there's muscles and brains and blood flow.

AJ
07-25-2012, 02:16 PM
this team is pathetic

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:17 PM
Whether you like it or not, he's going to be a starter again for us next year. You know that, right?

I hope he is, I want this team to bottom-out Houston style.

CDog
07-25-2012, 02:17 PM
Cause any real fan of the Twins should hate Nick Blackburn, he's everything that's wrong with this teams pitching philosophy.

I'd rather cheer for wife beating Brett Meyers then Nick Blackburn.

You stay smart AND classy and all will be well.

Boom Boom
07-25-2012, 02:18 PM
Maybe we should all try to say something positive about Nick.

He's 1/5th of our 2013 rotation, so that's one less item on the shopping list. And I don't hope that a speeding bus runs him over.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 02:18 PM
I hope he is, I want this team to bottom-out Houston style.
To what end?

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:21 PM
To what end?

Worst team in baseball for atleast 3-4 years.

Bottom it out, start over and pray the Twins are smart enough to hit on some picks and trades.

GCTF
07-25-2012, 02:23 PM
Maybe we should all try to say something positive about Nick.

I like the clean shaven look. At least he no longer looks like he just got home from a week long bender.

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 02:24 PM
Damn, this team can really look pathetic some days.

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 02:25 PM
A double and this could be tied up, and cue two K's in a row.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 02:27 PM
Damn, this team can really look pathetic some days.

At least we're getting the game out of the way early today - leaves plenty of time to drown our sorrows in whisky later.

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 02:27 PM
I would have laid 10 to 1 on Casilla K'ing.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 02:28 PM
Worst team in baseball for atleast 3-4 years.

Bottom it out, start over and pray the Twins are smart enough to hit on some picks and trades.
I've heard a little, though not much, of this thinking and completely disagree. Yes, losing and better draft picks are proportional, but winning and losing is infective. It's not like you can try to lose a couple years and then turn it off in the following years and try to win again. Look at the Royals and Pirates, it takes decades to even get a winning record, even all the while stock piling high draft picks... it's an all-too-easy and none-too-clever approach.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 02:28 PM
A double and this could be tied up, and cue two K's in a row.

make that three, nice.

CDog
07-25-2012, 02:30 PM
Damn, this team can really look pathetic some days.

The second half of last season and the first few weeks of this year were like that. It seemed like every single inning on both offense and defense were an adventure and a struggle. That almost every play seemed like it was nearly impossible to execute cleanly. And it had more or less gotten better for a couple months+ and has come back with a vengeance recently. Ugh.

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 02:30 PM
make that three, nice.

At least Casilla made Peavy work for it.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 02:31 PM
Well, at least it wasn't an 0-2 pitch.

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 02:31 PM
Nick Blackburn is bad at baseball.

GCTF
07-25-2012, 02:32 PM
A lot of arc on Blackburnsie's ground balls today.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 02:33 PM
Put a tent up, the circus is back.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:33 PM
I've heard a little, though not much, of this thinking and completely disagree. Yes, losing and better draft picks are proportional, but winning and losing is infective. It's not like you can try to lose a couple years and then turn it off in the following years and try to win again. Look at the Royals and Pirates, it takes decades to even get a winning record, even all the while stock piling high draft picks... it's an all-too-easy and none-too-clever approach.


It doesn't have anything to do with "leaning how to win" Teams with talent win and teams without talent lose. The Pirates and Royals have been bad for so long cause they didn't hit on picks, lost what little talent they had to free agencey or bad trades.

Hell the farthest team to advances in the postseason in the Gardy era was the 2002 team that had no "winners" among them.

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 02:34 PM
Beginning to understand why people drink during the day.

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 02:34 PM
Just F'ing release Blackburn and get it over with. I can't take any mor 0-2 "sliders" in the middle of the plate that get pasted into the gap.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 02:35 PM
Maybe it's just me (I'm only partially following the game as I work on something else), but the last few hits seem to have come off some not-too-bad pitches. Looks like Chicago did a good job scouting where Blackburn likes to throw the ball.

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 02:35 PM
Flowers hit a double, time to pull blacky

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 02:35 PM
A lot of arc on Blackburnsie's ground balls today.

Turn your television upside down and Blackburn looks fine.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:36 PM
Where's Dave to tell us that there's still hope for Blackie?

Highabove
07-25-2012, 02:36 PM
I only have 16 more games left in our Season Ticket package.

I love Target Field (i will keep telling myself)

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 02:38 PM
It doesn't have anything to do with "leaning how to win" Teams with talent win and teams without talent lose. The Pirates and Royals have been bad for so long cause they didn't hit on picks, lost what little talent they had to free agencey or bad trades.

Hell the farthest team to advances in the postseason in the Gardy era was the 2002 team that had no "winners" among them.

Could not disagree more. Talent is important, but that's not all that matters. This organization has the stench of losing becoming a part of its DNA. That's a shame.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:39 PM
The Twins front office would really rather watch Blackburn do this then let Liam take his lumps?

Steve Penz
07-25-2012, 02:39 PM
Just F'ing release Blackburn and get it over with. I can't take any mor 0-2 "sliders" in the middle of the plate that get pasted into the gap.

I am paying attention on my smartphone while I work. It shows the chart of where pitches are delivered. Viciedo's homer pitch was 2 inches above his knee and grooved down the middle.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:41 PM
Could not disagree more. Talent is important, but that's not all that matters. This organization has the stench of losing becoming a part of its DNA. That's a shame.

What in the hell is "stench in it's DNA"

How is someone suppose to respond to that. Talent is all that matters in this game, if you have talented players then you're going to win games. If you have nontalented players then you're going to lose games. Lets not get into the mythical world of clutch, knowing how to win and whatever bs media driven cliches.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 02:41 PM
It doesn't have anything to do with "leaning how to win" Teams with talent win and teams without talent lose. The Pirates and Royals have been bad for so long cause they didn't hit on picks, lost what little talent they had to free agencey or bad trades.

Hell the farthest team to advances in the postseason in the Gardy era was the 2002 team that had no "winners" among them.

Expect to lose and you'll probably lose. Expect to win and you've got a chance. Why do you think sports psychiatrists exist? Why is teaming building and cohesiveness important to businesses and sports teams? Why do people attend religious services? Are beliefs efficacious? Does success not beget success? You don't have to answer all of these or any if you don't care to, but I think there something to the whole mind over matter, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts philosophical adages.

snepp
07-25-2012, 02:42 PM
You like him because you're a sadist.

Masochist, pig, masochist.

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 02:44 PM
Masochist, pig, masochist.

No, sadist. :D

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 02:44 PM
What in the hell is "stench in it's DNA"

How is someone suppose to respond to that. Talent is all that matters in this game, if you have talented players then you're going to win games. If you have nontalented players then you're going to lose games. Lets not get into the mythical world of clutch, knowing how to win and whatever bs media driven cliches.

Yeah, its all just some big spreadsheet exercise.

I happen to believe that not everything that can be counted counts. And not everything that counts can be counted.

Losing is partly a learned behavior, as is winning.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:45 PM
Expect to lose and you'll probably lose. Expect to win and you've got a chance. Why do you think sports psychiatrists exist? Why is teaming building and cohesiveness important to businesses and sports teams? Why do people attend religious services? Are beliefs efficacious? Does success not beget success? You don't have to answer all of these or any if you don't care to, but I think there something to the whole mind over matter, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts philosophical adages.

I can't respond to that cause there's no valid response that can be given. Neither you or I have any proof that any of that crap you just mentioned effects on the field proformance. I don't live in a world of made up clubhouse mojjo or whatever you believe in. If you look at the bad teams in baseball it's cause they lack talent to win games. If you look at the winning teams it's cause they have a talented roster.

Were not reinventing the wheel here, good teams win games while bad teams lose games.

CDog
07-25-2012, 02:46 PM
My mom loves the joke about the masochist and the sadist getting together. The masochist says, "Whip me." The sadist says, "No."

snepp
07-25-2012, 02:47 PM
This game thread is fantastic, I can't believe I missed so much yumminess.

snepp
07-25-2012, 02:48 PM
My mom loves the joke about the masochist and the sadist getting together. The masochist says, "I want to watch the Twins." The sadist says, "No."

I like this version more.

CDog
07-25-2012, 02:48 PM
Told you so! Something ain't right out there in left field!!!

Boom Boom
07-25-2012, 02:49 PM
You can send one player to a sports shrink if they've got confidence issues. But how do you fix a whole team if they've been conditioned to lose?

I think the answer is the same whether you think losing is infectious or not. You cycle out the players, coaches, and staff until you hit on a combination that works.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 02:50 PM
This thread is starting to remind me of the movie "The Natural":

"What is losing? Losing is a disease as contagious as polio. Losing is a disease as contagious as syphilis. Losing is a disease as contagious as bubonic plague, attacking one but affecting all. But curable. Imagine you are on a ship at sea..."

Good film but I wish they hadn't changed the ending from the book.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:50 PM
Yeah, its all just some big spreadsheet exercise.

I happen to believe that not everything that can be counted counts. And not everything that counts can be counted.

Losing is partly a learned behavior, as is winning.

I agree that not everything is a number when it comes to sports, but how in the hell do you quantify what you're talking about.

How do you learn how to win, teams don't stay bad forever so how does a team learn how to win. Is it maybe when they get enough friggin talent to win games?
How does a team captain/leader effect wins, how's Cuddyer doing in CO?
How does a manager players believe in effect wins?

I could go on all day...

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 02:51 PM
I can't respond to that cause there's no valid response that can be given. Neither you or I have any proof that any of that crap you just mentioned effects on the field proformance. I don't live in a world of made up clubhouse mojjo or whatever you believe in. If you look at the bad teams in baseball it's cause they lack talent to win games. If you look at the winning teams it's cause they have a talented roster.

Were not reinventing the wheel here, good teams win games while bad teams lose games.

No proof? Ok, look up the placebo effect and get back to us.

Love is a tough thing to measure.... therefore it must not exist. Do I have that about right?

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 02:53 PM
What in the hell is "stench in it's DNA"

How is someone suppose to respond to that. Talent is all that matters in this game, if you have talented players then you're going to win games. If you have nontalented players then you're going to lose games. Lets not get into the mythical world of clutch, knowing how to win and whatever bs media driven cliches.

Talent is all that matters, in any sport, period.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 02:56 PM
No proof? Ok, look up the placebo effect and get back to us.

Love is a tough thing to measure.... therefore it must not exist. Do I have that about right?

How did the Texas Rangers learn how to win after being garbage for all those years. Did Ronnie Wash bust out some 8balls and get everyone to believe? Or did they finally gather a talented enough roster to get outta the basement?

How did the Pirates finally start winning, was it Clint Hurdles doing naked laps in the clubhouse? Or did they hit on some high picks like Walker, McCutchon and mades some good trades to finally piece together a rotation?

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 02:56 PM
Maybe it's just me (I'm only partially following the game as I work on something else), but the last few hits seem to have come off some not-too-bad pitches. Looks like Chicago did a good job scouting where Blackburn likes to throw the ball.

You mean like right over the middle of the plate? That is good scouting.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 02:57 PM
How did the Texas Rangers learn how to win after being garbage for all those years. Did Ronnie Wash bust out some 8balls and get everyone to believe? Or did they finally gather a talented enough roster to get outta the basement?

How did the Pirates finally start winning, was it Clint Hurdles doing naked laps in the clubhouse? Or did they hit on some high picks like Walker, McCutchon and mades some good trades to finally piece together a rotation?

They got Hamilton off the junk.

snepp
07-25-2012, 02:57 PM
Did Dick make it through a Dunn plate appearance without mentioning strikeouts?

snepp
07-25-2012, 02:58 PM
Annnnnnnnnnnnd there goes another one.



Leave him out there until his arm falls off.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 02:59 PM
The Twins front office would really rather watch Blackburn do this then let Liam take his lumps?

They should have let Blackie rot in Rochester and brought back Hendriks, this is f***ing insane!

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 03:00 PM
Why hasn't blackburn been pulled yet? Seriously blackburn,watching tape doesn't fix this kind of problem. Maybe next time you should say you solved the problem until you have strung together multiple quality starts.

snepp
07-25-2012, 03:00 PM
Butera needs to takes some ESL classes so he can fix Blacksie.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 03:01 PM
You mean like right over the middle of the plate? That is good scouting.

I don't have gamecenter or anything on so I can't see where they tracked; I was just going by what I happened to catch on replays for hits. It looked to me like some of them were kept down in the zone and to the sides of the plate, and yet still got hammered.

That last homer, however, was a different matter.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 03:01 PM
Talent is all that matters, in any sport, period.
You're kinda missing the original argument, which was whether the best way to get back to success was to completely bottom out the team for several years or not.

Talent is a necessary condition of success but not always sufficient. Look at team USA basketball from prior years. All the talent in the world and awfully clumsy and bad at times.

Boom Boom
07-25-2012, 03:02 PM
Butera needs to takes some ESL classes so he can fix Blacksie.

I think Blackburn needs to try chewing gum.

And if he's already chewing gum, switch flavors.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 03:02 PM
Oh, good, the bullpen has the game now.

Tcrose3636
07-25-2012, 03:03 PM
Butera needs to takes some ESL classes so he can fix Blacksie.

That is why Blackie is struggling, he doesn't have the real starting catcher out there to calm him down, tell him to keep the ball low, mix his pitches...you know the stuff pitchers learn in high school.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 03:04 PM
Talent is a necessary condition of success but not always sufficient. Look at team USA basketball from prior years. All the talent in the world and awfully clumsy and bad at times.


Were talking about a 162 SS while you're bring up USA Baseketball and what a 7-8 game tourny. NTM baseketball is a team sport where flow and teamwork matter a ton. Those things aren't that important in baseball, atleast not important enough to sink a talented roster.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 03:04 PM
After today's performance, I can't wait for tomorrow's game.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 03:05 PM
How did the Texas Rangers learn how to win after being garbage for all those years. Did Ronnie Wash bust out some 8balls and get everyone to believe? Or did they finally gather a talented enough roster to get outta the basement?

How did the Pirates finally start winning, was it Clint Hurdles doing naked laps in the clubhouse? Or did they hit on some high picks like Walker, McCutchon and mades some good trades to finally piece together a rotation?

But that took 20 years. You are comfortable with that approach, I think we can do better that waiting out 20 years of crap baseball in order to be competitive in the 21st. Sill waiting on the placebo effect since you continue to ignorantly ridicule and dismiss the mental activity.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 03:08 PM
You're kinda missing the original argument, which was whether the best way to get back to success was to completely bottom out the team for several years or not.

Talent is a necessary condition of success but not always sufficient. Look at team USA basketball from prior years. All the talent in the world and awfully clumsy and bad at times.

No, I didn't miss it, whichever way you do it the only way to be successful is to have enough talent. I think what's being missed is what quantifies talent.

minn55441
07-25-2012, 03:09 PM
Talent is all that matters, in any sport, period.

The Oakland A's are tied with the Angles after roughly 100 games. Too small of a sample size? Talent is important, but it is not even close to all that matters.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 03:10 PM
But that took 20 years. You are comfortable with that approach, I think we can do better that waiting out 20 years of crap baseball in order to be competitive in the 21st. Sill waiting on the placebo effect since you continue to ignorantly ridicule and dismiss the mental activity.

It took 20 years cause they couldn't produce a lick of pitching for that all. This isn't ****ing hard to understand, if you don't have a talented roster then you're going to lose games. But if you draft, trade and sign well and put together a good team then you'll win. They made a great trade of Teix, they started to finally produce some pitching and a smart and progressive front office took over, that's why the Rangers win not some stupid-ass "winning culture"

That's it, that's all there is to this.

Boom Boom
07-25-2012, 03:12 PM
For one thing, mentality is a talent.

If the Twins shouldn't tear down the team and start over, what should they do? Continue to invest in cheap free agents as they've been doing?

How much closer to contention do you think the Twins are than their record would suggest?

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 03:13 PM
The Oakland A's are tied with the Angles after roughly 100 games. Too small of a sample size? Talent is important, but it is not even close to all that matters.

And talent will win out, let's reconvene in September.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 03:13 PM
It doesn't have anything to do with "leaning how to win" Teams with talent win and teams without talent lose.

"baseketball is a team sport where flow and teamwork matter a ton. Those things aren't that important in baseball, atleast not important enough to sink a talented roster."

Which is it? Does belief and mental approach have something to do with winning or not?

DPJ
07-25-2012, 03:14 PM
The Oakland A's are tied with the Angles after roughly 100 games. Too small of a sample size? Talent is important, but it is not even close to all that matters.

Never mind the A's going on a unsustainable run of winning like 8 or 9 games by one run.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 03:16 PM
Yes, talent is a necessary component of success, but it is not a guarantee of success. That talent also has to be fit into a system that allows it become more than the sum of the individual parts. You need team chemistry and synergy. This debate reminds me of the 1980 winter olympics and the U.S. hockey team. Herb Brooks didn't pick the most talented players at the training camp, he picked the players that would best fit into the system he was going to build. Did they have individual talent? Absolutely. But purely on an individual basis they were NOT the most talented hockey players at Lake Placid. Put together in the right way, though, they did become the most talented team in those games.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 03:17 PM
"baseketball is a team sport where flow and teamwork matter a ton. Those things aren't that important in baseball, atleast not important enough to sink a talented roster."

Which is it? Does belief and mental approach have something to do with winning or not?

The mental approach and understanding of any game is a talent, it's not voodoo.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 03:17 PM
No, I didn't miss it, whichever way you do it the only way to be successful is to have enough talent. I think what's being missed is what quantifies talent.

You just missed it again. No is arguing that talent isn't required for success. "whichever way you do it" IS what the argument is about.

minn55441
07-25-2012, 03:19 PM
So, If I have this correctly the most talented team wins the world series every year? Have the Yankee's just bought the wrong talent?

DPJ
07-25-2012, 03:19 PM
"baseketball is a team sport where flow and teamwork matter a ton. Those things aren't that important in baseball, atleast not important enough to sink a talented roster."

Which is it? Does belief and mental approach have something to do with winning or not?

This is the last time I'm going to say this.

I'm sure somewhere just like everything we all do, there's a mental approach to the game. But you or I have no idea what so ever how that effects a player on a given day. We don't know what losing does, we don't know what winning does, we don't know jack ****.

So at the end of the day the only thing you can judge off is talent, talented teams win games and non-talented teams lose games. That's it, I'm done...slag off.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 03:20 PM
So, If I have this correctly the most talented team wins the world series every year? Have the Yankee's just bought the wrong talent?


You can't judge what's going to happen in a 5 or 7 games sample size. Anyone can beat anyone in a short series...except the Twins.

cr9617
07-25-2012, 03:21 PM
I can't wait until someone chimes in and defends Blackie this time around. Something like.....'when healthy, Blackburn is a solid fourth or fifth starter on a good team. He just needs to settle down and find his groove, and he will be just like he was back in 08 and 09.'

snepp
07-25-2012, 03:22 PM
So, If I have this correctly the most talented team wins the world series every year? Have the Yankee's just bought the wrong talent?

No, but the most talented teams do have the tendency to make the playoffs, where short series are a completely different animal.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 03:22 PM
The mental approach and understanding of any game is a talent, it's not voodoo.

To now lump talent with a winning attitude/previous success/mental fortitude/and all mental/and all other tough to measure but no less real causes of success at this point is sophistry. So is Liriano talented or not?

jctwins
07-25-2012, 03:23 PM
I can't wait until someone chimes in and defends Blackie this time around. Something like.....'when healthy, Blackburn is a solid fourth or fifth starter on a good team. He just needs to settle down and find his groove, and he will be just like he was back in 08 and 09.'

Be sure to tune in for Gardy's post game interview!

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 03:24 PM
One could argue that is why the short series are so much fun, much harder to predict the outcome.

Boom Boom
07-25-2012, 03:24 PM
When I look at what the Twins did this last offseason to try and right the ship, I'm seeing a lot of similarities to the 2000s Royals.

We're not that far away, we just need to pick up a few mid-level free agents. Let's go get Gil Meche, Brett Tomko, Jose Guillen and Juan Cruz.

They're all decent players, but they're stopgaps that don't fix the problem.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 03:25 PM
Herb Brooks didn't pick the most talented players at the training camp, he picked the players that would best fit into the system he was going to build.

First off were talking a one game sample size, replay that game 100 times and the Russians win 99 of them.

Secondly, isn't picking players that fit best in a system still about talent? He picked the players that would succeed in the system he was running or offense or whatever the **** hockey does.

cr9617
07-25-2012, 03:26 PM
I don't have gamecenter or anything on so I can't see where they tracked; I was just going by what I happened to catch on replays for hits. It looked to me like some of them were kept down in the zone and to the sides of the plate, and yet still got hammered.

That last homer, however, was a different matter.

There is no silver lining to be found in this guy. Stop looking...

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 03:26 PM
When I look at what the Twins did this last offseason to try and right the ship, I'm seeing a lot of similarities to the 2000s Royals.

We're not that far away, we just need to pick up a few mid-level free agents. Let's go get Gil Meche, Brett Tomko, Jose Guillen and Juan Cruz. They're all decent players, but they're stopgaps that don't fix the problem.

Last off season, most the people I know, blamed the Twins record on injuries and some genuinely thought it was a simple fix away. This season it is much easier to see this team isn't a quick fix from contention and hopefully management makes decisions accordingly.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 03:30 PM
Yes, talent is a necessary component of success, but it is not a guarantee of success. That talent also has to be fit into a system that allows it become more than the sum of the individual parts. You need team chemistry and synergy. This debate reminds me of the 1980 winter olympics and the U.S. hockey team. Herb Brooks didn't pick the most talented players at the training camp, he picked the players that would best fit into the system he was going to build. Did they have individual talent? Absolutely. But purely on an individual basis they were NOT the most talented hockey players at Lake Placid. Put together in the right way, though, they did become the most talented team in those games.

Anything can happen in one game, in a short tournament, especially in hockey. Anyway, the US beat the Finns to win the gold. In the mid to late nineties Canada decided they would go down the picking the players who best fit the system road in international hockey and they sucked. Once they decided to just take the best players and work the system to fit them, they have been much more successful.

Talent first, everything else next.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 03:32 PM
To now lump talent with a winning attitude/previous success/mental fortitude/and all mental/and all other tough to measure but no less real causes of success at this point is sophistry. So is Liriano talented or not?

Apparently not or we wouldn't be looking to trade him.

minn55441
07-25-2012, 03:33 PM
Last off season, most the people I know, blamed the Twins record on injuries and some genuinely thought it was a simple fix away. This season it is much easier to see this team isn't a quick fix from contention and hopefully management makes decisions accordingly.

the quick fix is 5 new starters. The every day lineup is competitive, maybe not to the level of making a serious run in Oct, but this team would look a lot different with some good starting pitching. Can you imagine a team where diamond was our 5th starter? A guy that was a complete surprise, that we weren't counting on?

Boom Boom
07-25-2012, 03:36 PM
To now lump talent with a winning attitude/previous success/mental fortitude/and all mental/and all other tough to measure but no less real causes of success at this point is sophistry. So is Liriano talented or not?

You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 03:37 PM
You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.


Thank you

minn55441
07-25-2012, 03:39 PM
Hanley Ramirez was the most talented player traded so far this season. Will the Dodgers win even more games now that they have more talent? Ozzie couldn't make all of that talent work in Miami, so they are now trading away pieces. They aren't trading away the guys "without talent", they are trading away the guys "with talent" that didn't fit.

Managers play a huge role in baseball, because the teams with the most talent don't always win. The managers that get the most out of their players win games.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2012, 03:40 PM
Anything can happen in one game, in a short tournament, especially in hockey. Anyway, the US beat the Finns to win the gold. In the mid to late nineties Canada decided they would go down the picking the players who best fit the system road in international hockey and they sucked. Once they decided to just take the best players and work the system to fit them, they have been much more successful.

Talent first, everything else next.

Yes, I know that, I watched the games, all of them, and I stand by my assessment that their gold medal was not a fluke due to luck or small sample size - they were the best team at the tournament, and not because they had the best players.

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 03:44 PM
the quick fix is 5 new starters. The every day lineup is competitive, maybe not to the level of making a serious run in Oct, but this team would look a lot different with some good starting pitching. Can you imagine a team where diamond was our 5th starter? A guy that was a complete surprise, that we weren't counting on?

I agree, I just don't see how we would acquire 4 more quality pitchers. Diamond has been great and hopefully will continue to be good next year. The Pohlads would have to spend a significant amount of money to sign free agents and history would indicate the are not likely to do that. Unless I am missing a number of significant prospects being ready next year, it doesn't seem like a fix that will occur during the offseason but more likely over the next few years.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 03:49 PM
Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.

Hijinks
07-25-2012, 03:57 PM
Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.

No way do you try to lose for years, but talent needs to be built through trades and drafts. Just don't think losing for years does much, maybe in the NFL it could be considered a strategy but it just takes far too long to develop talent in the MLB. Also the drop in attendance would lower revenue to the point you could no longer hold on to the talent you develop.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 04:09 PM
You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.

If you look back through the thread, you'll see that you are agreeing with me on this point but not trying to confuse by calling both measurable stats = talent as well as the immeasurable though equally real causes of success.

Ultima Ratio
07-25-2012, 04:11 PM
No way do you try to lose for years, but talent needs to be built through trades and drafts. Just don't think losing for years does much, maybe in the NFL it could be considered a strategy but it just takes far too long to develop talent in the MLB. Also the drop in attendance would lower revenue to the point you could no longer hold on to the talent you develop.
Yep

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 04:26 PM
Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.

Ok, maybe a bit sidetracked, I don't believe you can bottom this team out for 4+ years, the cost is too high. The team needs to give hope to the buying public that they can be remotely competitive in order to afford the kind of team and players everybody wants. That being said, the stable on the farm needs refilling and obtaining prospects who can move through the system faster is the only way we're going to contend again.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-25-2012, 04:39 PM
What a complete disaster of a series. Not one good thing to take away from it.

snepp
07-25-2012, 04:45 PM
What a complete disaster of a series. Not one good thing to take away from it.

Blackburn hastened his demotion back to AAA?

jctwins
07-25-2012, 04:47 PM
Blackburn hastened his demotion back to AAA?

This.

peterb18
07-25-2012, 06:07 PM
I don't believe you can bottom this team out for 4+ years, the cost is too high. The team needs to give hope to the buying public that they can be remotely competitive in order to afford the kind of team and players everybody wants. That being said, the stable on the farm needs refilling and obtaining prospects who can move through the system faster is the only way we're going to contend again.

The above statement makes a lot of sense. Player acquistion, player development, and fielding a competitive team, depends on the Pohlads. They will decide(the Pohlads) when this team will be competitive again. I don't know how important fielding a winning team is to them? Remember, this is the ownership that tried to sell the team a few years ago, and also would have contracted the team a few years later.