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View Full Version : Market for Liriano and Willingham increases with trades/extensions



J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 09:19 AM
So, just in case you didn't know, the market for Span, Willingham (not that he is officially on the market) and Liriano increased last night/early this morning, with the 6-year, $144 million deal given to Cole Hamels and the trade of Hanley Ramirez and Randy Choate of the Marlins to the Dodgers for Nathan Eovaldi and a minor leaguer.

This means that there is one less proven big league pitcher on the market, and Liriano is starting to look really good to GM's desperate for pitching and can no longer trade for Hamels.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-25-2012, 09:28 AM
The Marlin's have thrown a wrench into all of this with them becoming fire sellers once again, Liriano still rates behind: Grienke, Garza, Johnson and Dempster on the "trading" scale I imagine.

However there certainly are less "rentals" avail now as well I imagine.

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 09:34 AM
I think the Dodgers are in exclusive negotiations for Dempster, and I am expecting them to get a deal done for him sometime this week, so I was kind of leaving him out of my mental list of available starters. I haven't really heard anything about anyone asking about Garza, like anything at all, so I have been leaning towards the assumption that the Cubs are not going to trade him. I would say that Liriano, Greinke, Shields and Johnson are probably the best pitchers I know of that are still on the market, and it seems like the Rays might trade Shields soon, so the market for Liriano might grow even larger.

Thrylos
07-25-2012, 09:35 AM
The H-Ram trade does nothing to the Span value, if anything it may affect Willingham a bit. The Hamels extension and the Wandy Rodriguez trade really has Liriano cornering the market of LHSPs

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 09:37 AM
The H-Ram trade does nothing to the Span value, if anything it may affect Willingham a bit. The Hamels extension and the Wandy Rodriguez trade really has Liriano cornering the market of LHSPs

Really, how many other LHP's are on the market that have better stuff than Liriano? Also, there are at most maybe three or four veteran RHP's that are better than Liriano, and that number has been shrinking almost daily in the last week.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2012, 09:40 AM
well, there's more buyers than sellers, so every time a player dropps off the market, the supply of available pieces drops more than the remaining demand... In simple economics, that means a higher price for those desparate to buy. I personally kind of hope that TR is talking with the Dodgers about a similar deal for Liriano.

I'm not quite sure Garza goes because the Cubs will ask a kings ransom for him, same with Willingham.

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 09:44 AM
well, there's more buyers than sellers, so every time a player dropps off the market, the supply of available pieces drops more than the remaining demand... In simple economics, that means a higher price for those desparate to buy. I personally kind of hope that TR is talking with the Dodgers about a similar deal for Liriano.

I'm not quite sure Garza goes because the Cubs will ask a kings ransom for him, same with Willingham.

Have the Dodgers even expressed interest in Liriano? Also, just in hypothetical, who would the Twins receive in return for Liriano? Also, what are you thinking the Twins get in order to give up Willingham?

Winston Smith
07-25-2012, 09:56 AM
I think the Liriano market is going to be really soft. Think about it, every team that needs pitching has watched him for years and they all know he is anything but reliable. Now you are in the race do you really want to bet your chances on a guy that may be a dud. You trade for him and he gives you 2-3 starts like his last or early this season and you are out of it. I think the only place he goes is a really desperate team after everything else is done. Span might go to the Reds or Nats but I don't think he'll bring much back as much as we hope. Willingham is the best chance to really add some talent but wouldn't some fans revolt meaning more empty seats and more empty seats meaning lower payroll next year? This team really is a mess.
Sorry I'm getting a little depressed after all this losing.
Please something good happen!!

gunnarthor
07-25-2012, 09:59 AM
I think Span or Willingham is a better fit for the Dodgers. They could use both a good leadoff hitter and a power bat. Any trade with them would have to include Zach Lee.

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 10:03 AM
I think the Liriano market is going to be really soft. Think about it, every team that needs pitching has watched him for years and they all know he is anything but reliable. Now you are in the race do you really want to bet your chances on a guy that may be a dud. You trade for him and he gives you 2-3 starts like his last or early this season and you are out of it. I think the only place he goes is a really desperate team after everything else is done. Span might go to the Reds or Nats but I don't think he'll bring much back as much as we hope. Willingham is the best chance to really add some talent but wouldn't some fans revolt meaning more empty seats and more empty seats meaning lower payroll next year? This team really is a mess.
Sorry I'm getting a little depressed after all this losing.
Please something good happen!!

All this is why I am glad we have Terry Ryan as GM again instead of Bill Smith. Ryan was known for making really good deals when he was with the Twins the first time around, and very few deals that Smith made we would approve of. Ryan was (and hopefully still is) really good at judging the market for players, and knowing that (in my personal opinion) that he should deal Liriano ASAP for the best deal possible, because when you get better pitchers like Shields and Greinke and whoever else is still on the market off the market, people are less likely to go and sell high on Liriano.

johnnydakota
07-25-2012, 10:05 AM
I think Span or Willingham is a better fit for the Dodgers. They could use both a good leadoff hitter and a power bat. Any trade with them would have to include Zach Lee.

if span is traded , i hope its to cincy... hamilton would look good at 2b

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 10:06 AM
I think Span or Willingham is a better fit for the Dodgers. They could use both a good leadoff hitter and a power bat. Any trade with them would have to include Zach Lee.

I partially agree with you. I think any deal for Willingham would include Lee, IF said deal was with the Dodgers, but we probably won't get that much for Span. Plus, they aren't going to trade 2/3 of their starting outfield to the same team, no matter how much is offered.

johnnydakota
07-25-2012, 10:09 AM
All this is why I am glad we have Terry Ryan as GM again instead of Bill Smith. Ryan was known for making really good deals when he was with the Twins the first time around, and very few deals that Smith made we would approve of. Ryan was (and hopefully still is) really good at judging the market for players, and knowing that (in my personal opinion) that he should deal Liriano ASAP for the best deal possible, because when you get better pitchers like Shields and Greinke and whoever else is still on the market off the market, people are less likely to go and sell high on Liriano.

what deals? are you speaking of the a.j. deal? terry ryan wanted boof bonser, not liriano...he said boof was the key player in the trade ,with out boof , ryan doesnt make the deal....
terry ryans time has passed him by. time for new blood from david st . pete down to vavra,anderson,ulger and liddle (and of course the ring master of the @ss clown posse ron "the waddler"gardenhire..)

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 10:21 AM
what deals? are you speaking of the a.j. deal? terry ryan wanted boof bonser, not liriano...he said boof was the key player in the trade ,with out boof , ryan doesnt make the deal....
terry ryans time has passed him by. time for new blood from david st . pete down to vavra,anderson,ulger and liddle (and of course the ring master of the @ss clown posse ron "the waddler"gardenhire..)

Ah, but they also got Joe Nathan in that deal, who ended up being the Twins' all-time saves leader before he left. Other deals he made include the one to get rid of Knoblauch, picked up Johan Santana in the Rule V draft, drafted Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, Cuddy, Hunter, Span, Perkins, signed Jacque Jones, Doug Mientkiewicz, Cory Koskie, Josh Willingham, Jared Burton, and Matt Capps just to name a few guys who really helped the Twins out in the last decade because of Terry Ryan.

gunnarthor
07-25-2012, 10:25 AM
what deals? are you speaking of the a.j. deal? terry ryan wanted boof bonser, not liriano...he said boof was the key player in the trade ,with out boof , ryan doesnt make the deal....


That's not quite right. Boof and Nathan were the initial keys to the trade but SF had to kick in Liriano to outbid Seattle. And Boof was a fine prospect, at one time being ranked BA #29 prospect. If SF had declined to put in any of those three guys, Ryan wouldn't have made the trade.

TKGuy
07-25-2012, 10:37 AM
Braves have given up on Dempster. Would they offer Delgado or Jurrjens type back for Liriano. They still have Teheran waiting in the wings, and I know we can't get him, but maybe one of the others.

PMKI
07-25-2012, 10:39 AM
if span is traded , i hope its to cincy... hamilton would look good at 2b

If we somehow manage to get Billy Hamilton I just don't know how to explain how happy I would be!

jorgenswest
07-25-2012, 10:44 AM
Getting anything close to Delgado for two months of Liriano would be a steal for the Twins. Looking at his game log, he has very few good games and many poor outings against the better teams. That hot/cold type of performance is not one teams want to take into the playoffs.

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 10:47 AM
Braves have given up on Dempster. Would they offer Delgado or Jurrjens type back for Liriano. They still have Teheran waiting in the wings, and I know we can't get him, but maybe one of the others.

With Jurrjens recent struggles (like, even more than Liriano) I am not sure the Twins should even want him.

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 10:50 AM
I am now getting conflicting reports on MLBTR on whether or not the Cubs will trade Dempster. One bullet says they want to keep him and make him a qualifying offer so they get draft pick comp. if he walks, and another says that they Dodgers are working hard to swing a trade with the Cubs for him. Also, the Braves are officially out of the Dempster sweepstakes, according to MLBTR.

PMKI
07-25-2012, 10:57 AM
If you had to guess when do you think the Twins do some trades? Will they wait until Tuesday?

rinkratfrits
07-25-2012, 10:58 AM
So then why don't we trade some pieces with value? Revere is on the up-swing in value. We have outfield depth...

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 11:03 AM
If you had to guess when do you think the Twins do some trades? Will they wait until Tuesday?

I would have to say that we will start seeing some rumors on MLBTR any time now with info about the Twins discussing trading either Liriano or Span. If Tuesday is when they have their highest trade value, then Ryan might wait till Tuesday, but I think if he is smart, he will make a trade or two earlier than that.

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 11:07 AM
So then why don't we trade some pieces with value? Revere is on the up-swing in value. We have outfield depth...

I think that the Twins see Revere as much more controllable than Span in their long-term plans. I think that if they trade anyone who hasn't really been on any trade radars, it might be Carroll, but not Revere. He is an outfielder with an average arm at best, with little to no power and doesn't walk well. Span is a much more proven big-leaguer, even with his injury history. The Twins should trade both Span and Willingham before they even think about trading Revere

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 12:34 PM
Another update: According to MLBTR, the Rangers are making the biggest push to acquire JJ, which would be another front-line starter off the market before Liriano and further narrowing the field of available top-line arms.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2012, 12:36 PM
Have the Dodgers even expressed interest in Liriano? Also, just in hypothetical, who would the Twins receive in return for Liriano? Also, what are you thinking the Twins get in order to give up Willingham?


I meant the Braves... sorry about that. I was thinking Randall Delgado the whole way.

As for Willi, I would hope it would be a very nice pitcher along with some high upside prospects at at lower levels.

Winston Smith
07-25-2012, 12:42 PM
Len3 says the Twins are getting calls on Span and Willie but not on Liriano. They are calling other teams trying to find a taker for him.

jctwins
07-25-2012, 12:47 PM
Len3 says the Twins are getting calls on Span and Willie but not on Liriano. They are calling other teams trying to find a taker for him.

That's great. Very reassuring.

jctwins
07-25-2012, 12:47 PM
I am now getting conflicting reports on MLBTR on whether or not the Cubs will trade Dempster. One bullet says they want to keep him and make him a qualifying offer so they get draft pick comp. if he walks, and another says that they Dodgers are working hard to swing a trade with the Cubs for him. Also, the Braves are officially out of the Dempster sweepstakes, according to MLBTR.

Do you have a different feed than the internet?

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 12:54 PM
Do you have a different feed than the internet?

That is actually what the feed on MLBTR was saying; go look it up if you want.

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 12:56 PM
Hopefully we can find a team that is being cut out of talks with other high-end arms to listen to us on a deal for Liriano that doesn't cut our pockets.

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 01:00 PM
Again according to MLBTR, the Braves are going to try and focus on Greinke after being rejected in the Dempster deal, and Greinke is said to admire the Angels and Braves, so if I had to guess at this point, I think Greinke goes either to the Angels or to the Braves.

PMKI
07-25-2012, 03:10 PM
According to MLBTradeRumors "
The Twins' asking prices for Morneau ("pricey"), Denard Span ("more pricey"), and Josh Willingham ("it made me laugh") are high. Minnesota insists they will listen on anyone and Stark says Morneau is the bat they're most likely to move. Francisco Liriano is "nearly 100 percent" likely to be traded."

nicksaviking
07-25-2012, 03:51 PM
Easy for Stark to report without giving examples. By saying that, he is shielding the teams the Twins are in discussions with and the prospects/players in said discussions while undermining the Twins. Seems like pretty subjective reporting to me. Seems like all the other potential players on the move have at least one if not multiple teams attached to a possible trade. I wonder why we aren't hearing any teams mentioned in Twins trades aside from Danny Gladden's failed Pirates trade rumor.

Oxtung
07-25-2012, 04:58 PM
Easy for Stark to report without giving examples. By saying that, he is shielding the teams the Twins are in discussions with and the prospects/players in said discussions while undermining the Twins. Seems like pretty subjective reporting to me.

Do you really think that teams are reading Stark's writeup to find out what the Twins wish list is for our trade chips? More likely they'd just pick up the phone and asked TR what his asking price is then form an opinion of their own on how pricey that is. I don't see how this undermines the Twins in any way. Personally I think TR should be asking for a lot at this point. There are plenty of trade partners out there. As the trade market changes I hope he changes his asking price accordingly. Ultimately the Twins can keep Willingham, Span and Morneau with little issue. The only player that really is on the chopping block is Liriano and even there there is some wiggle room with a potential $12M QO this winter.

J-Dog Dungan
07-25-2012, 05:20 PM
Do you really think that teams are reading Stark's writeup to find out what the Twins wish list is for our trade chips? More likely they'd just pick up the phone and asked TR what his asking price is then form an opinion of their own on how pricey that is. I don't see how this undermines the Twins in any way. Personally I think TR should be asking for a lot at this point. There are plenty of trade partners out there. As the trade market changes I hope he changes his asking price accordingly. Ultimately the Twins can keep Willingham, Span and Morneau with little issue. The only player that really is on the chopping block is Liriano and even there there is some wiggle room with a potential $12M QO this winter.

The reason that the Twins are asking a lot for Span, Willingham, and Morneau is that they are all under contract for at least the next year, if not two (not that they aren't or shouldn't be asking a lot for Liriano) and they don't have to be traded now to have good value. Honestly, the Twins could wait to trade S,W, & M until they have peak value, or just wait till next year.

Oxtung
07-25-2012, 05:36 PM
The reason that the Twins are asking a lot for Span, Willingham, and Morneau is that they are all under contract for at least the next year, if not two (not that they aren't or shouldn't be asking a lot for Liriano) and they don't have to be traded now to have good value. Honestly, the Twins could wait to trade S,W, & M until they have peak value, or just wait till next year.

How does that disagree in any way with what I wrote?

nicksaviking
07-25-2012, 06:00 PM
Perhaps his colemn isn't subversive to the Twins cause, but I still find it awfully subjective reporting. He isn't saying that other GM's are telling him the players are "pricey", "more pricey" and "it made me laugh" those are his words, meaning he knows who the Twins have talked to and who they have asked for but won't let the readers decide for themselves because he's shielding these GM's. These GM's wouldn't be anonymously be leaking this info to Stark unless they wanted it public that they think the Twins need to accept less than their current asking price.

J-Dog Dungan
07-26-2012, 05:22 PM
Just recently on MLBTR, an article from David Kaplan of CSNChicago.com says that the Dodgers and Cubs are working towards a deal for Dempster that might include another team.