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View Full Version : Would you trade Liriano for what the Pirates gave the Astros for Wandy?



Thrylos
07-24-2012, 09:20 PM
The Astros get Rudy Owens, a 24 year old LHP who is repeating AAA this season and is 8-5 with 3.14 ERA and 1.168 WHIP, 6.5 K/9 and 3.4 K/BB), Robbie Grossman a 22 year old toolsy CF who is hitting .262/.374/.403 with 7 HRs in AA and Colton Cain a 21 year old LHP who is pitching in high A with 4.20 ERA, 1.240 WHIP, 6.1 K/9 and 2.04 K/BB. Not top 100 MLB prospects and only Grossman was on BA's list of the Pirates' top 10 prospects at number 8. The Pirates also got some $.

If you were the Twins, would you trade Liriano for that?

twinswon1991
07-24-2012, 09:38 PM
Absolutely I would take that haul for Liriano!

Is it really worth it to keep him around the rest of the year only to lose him to free agency? Or run the risk of him going back to his old ways so you can't even risk offering him the qualifying offer to gain a draft pick?

At this point any live warm body is worth it unless they can sign him to a VERY, VERY, VERY team freindly deal before the deadline.

Unfortunately, Terry Ryan may have overplayed his hand as there are very few suitors left and more pitchers on the market than initially thought: Johnson, Big Erv, Shields, etc.

Badsmerf
07-24-2012, 09:41 PM
Hell no. Not a single one of those guys looks to profile to even be an MLB regular. I'd rather keep him in the first place, but if you're going to trade him at least get something worthwhile.

twinswon1991
07-24-2012, 09:44 PM
Hell no. Not a single one of those guys looks to profile to even be an MLB regular. I'd rather keep him in the first place, but if you're going to trade him at least get something worthwhile.

Keep him for what? So you can lose 98 games instead of 101? I don't understand why you would keep a tradeable asset when you can cash him in for something. I am too risk adverse to gamble that he will be good enough over the last 2 months that the Twins will net the draft pick. And if he sucks down the stretch I surely don't want to make him the 12.5 mil qualifying offer.

TheLeviathan
07-24-2012, 09:48 PM
Looked to me like the Astros were going for quantity over quality...I'd probably pass. I think the Twins can get one quality spec for him at the core of the deal - and that should be their aim.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
07-24-2012, 09:51 PM
I really don't like that group of players to be honest. It's a good move for the Astros because they get rid of Rodriguez's massive contract, but I hope the Twins could do better. I'd rather get a $5 bill than three $1s.

beckmt
07-24-2012, 09:53 PM
unless the twins can sign Liriano to a team friendly contract, I would take this deal. If he pitches bad on Sunday, his trade value goes to zero, along with your return. I would like to get more, but Terry Ryan cannot overplay this and wind up with zero.

Seth Stohs
07-24-2012, 09:54 PM
I'd take that... Granted, there's still a week left before the deadline, so I'm going to hope for even more, but that would be a nice package. And frankly, the Twins need quality, but they also need some quantity too... all three are top 12 or so prospects, so that's pretty good. Especially for a guy who, two months ago, many wanted to just release.

Winston Smith
07-24-2012, 10:00 PM
Well Dick says the goal now is to catch KC and get out of last place. Not sure we can do that without Liriano and that would really mean more than getting a few prospects that might turn into players. We have so much talent stockpiled in the minors do we even have room for them?:confused:

IdahoPilgrim
07-24-2012, 10:01 PM
Yes.

powrwrap
07-24-2012, 10:03 PM
If you were the Twins, would you trade Liriano for that?

Owens is OK, Grossman strikes out a lot. Neither of the pitchers appear to be power type pitchers. I'm not too thrilled with that trio, but if that was the only offer I'd take it.

Jeremy Nygaard
07-24-2012, 10:10 PM
I would take the value, though I wouldn't necessarily want my return centered around a "toolsy" outfielder. The Twins, on the other hand...

Thrylos
07-24-2012, 10:14 PM
Owens is OK, Grossman strikes out a lot. Neither of the pitchers appear to be power type pitchers. I'm not too thrilled with that trio, but if that was the only offer I'd take it.

Grossman is playing in the Eastern League (AA). He is hitting .262/.374/.403 with 58 BB and 77 K. Twins' own Aaron Hicks (also 22 and also in the same league) is hitting .273/.371/.432 with 52 BB and 86 K. Not that much different but if anything Hicks strikes out more than Grossman ;)

I think that Grossman has no place with the Twins because of Hicks (and Benson and Morales and Buxton etc.) and I suspect that the Twins would try to pry someone else from the Pirates or get 2 instead of 3 prospects...

USAFChief
07-24-2012, 10:17 PM
I'd take that... Granted, there's still a week left before the deadline, so I'm going to hope for even more, but that would be a nice package. And frankly, the Twins need quality, but they also need some quantity too... all three are top 12 or so prospects, so that's pretty good. Especially for a guy who, two months ago, many wanted to just release.

Not according to Sickels, but he did have Grossman at #5 before the season.

kab21
07-24-2012, 10:20 PM
at this point I would take anything decent for Liriano. None of these players have much upside and the best prospect isn't a pitcher but at the same time I would rather have too many OF'ers than get nothing.

rickyhawaii
07-24-2012, 10:24 PM
That seems like pretty good value actually.. Grossman is a good prospect who could prob be an everyday regular and Colton Cain could be a sleeper. Cain was an overslot draft pick and well regarded. Still young too so may develop more. Hopefully the Twins model after this trade.

greengoblinrulz
07-24-2012, 10:25 PM
Baseball America had Grossman 8th, Cain 13th & Owens 16th coming into thes season.
Our equilivant woulda been Kyle Gibson 8th, Corey Williams 13th & Adrian Salcedo 16th

shs_59
07-24-2012, 11:02 PM
Pirates still HAVE

SS Alen Hanson B+
OF Jorge Palonco B+
OF Starling Marte B
SP Luis Heredia B+ / A-
SP Zach Van Rosenburg C+
SP Nich Kingham C+


theres still some chips for them to play around with

and thats assuming Cole and Taillon are untouchable.

Ultima Ratio
07-24-2012, 11:03 PM
I'd hold out for one quality prospect rather than 3 middle of the road guys.

kab21
07-24-2012, 11:06 PM
I'd hold out for one quality prospect rather than 3 middle of the road guys.

What if this means you get nothing?

twinslover
07-24-2012, 11:26 PM
I think you'd have to take that for Liriano, but a better question is, would any GM out there offer that much? Wandy doesn't have the "stuff" that Liriano does, is also older and has a higher salary, but he is so much more consistent that I'm not sure you can compare the two. Liriano's value is almost more difficult to predict than the results of his next start.

Oxtung
07-24-2012, 11:30 PM
So does this mean that everyone is back off the resign Liriano bandwagon? And I would take that deal as well. It certainly isn't optimal with the center piece being a "toolsy" outfielder at AA but if you don't trade Liriano you are basically committing to the $12M QO.

glunn
07-24-2012, 11:40 PM
I hope that the Twins hold out for a very high quality pitching prospect.

rickyhawaii
07-24-2012, 11:45 PM
Grossman is past the point of just being "toolsy", he's gets on base and good defender..Twins would be fortunate to get a player like him in any deal. Only prob though Grossman doesn't hit for much power.

Shane Wahl
07-25-2012, 12:51 AM
Sub out the toolsy OF for some other similar position player, and yes, absolutely I would take that.

Badsmerf
07-25-2012, 06:29 AM
The biggest problem I guess I have is the best prospect is a OF, which the Twins do not need. The next best is a back of the rotation starter, which the Twins also don't need. If the prospects were a 2b and a high upside pitcher I'd be all for it.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2012, 08:12 AM
What if this means you get nothing?

then you offer Liriano arb.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2012, 08:14 AM
Count me in the "not taking the deal" camp. Grossman is the only decent prospect of that bunch, and he's kind of redundant in this system, so there's no way I'd even be talking a trade around a propsect like him. Neither of those pitchers can strike out guys in low A, so unless there's some sort of obvious toolsy unrealized talent with those guys, they are filler at best. I'd much rather they take one quality propsect and a low A filler/higher ceiling guy than to go for a couple of #5 starters and a toolsy OF.

mike wants wins
07-25-2012, 08:18 AM
I'd take that if you swap out an OF for a MIF. If that was my best offer, yes, I'd take that. They need to go get more minor league quality and quantity. This team is awful for the 2nd year in a row, and it looks like nothing is on the horizon to change that next year. You have to go get some players, even if they are "throw them against the wall and see what sticks", average prospects, you have to go get some players.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2012, 08:33 AM
minor league free agents will give you the minor league quantity you need. But you dont' trade guys you can offer arb to and get a pick for quantity... Otherwise, just take the pick.

Thrylos
07-25-2012, 09:02 AM
then you offer Liriano arb.

that was so 2011

Boom Boom
07-25-2012, 09:06 AM
I'd tell them to keep the outfielder and give me at least one better pitcher.

ALessKosherScott
07-25-2012, 09:34 AM
The Astros get Rudy Owens, a 24 year old LHP who is repeating AAA this season and is 8-5 with 3.14 ERA and 1.168 WHIP, 6.5 K/9 and 3.4 K/BB), Robbie Grossman a 22 year old toolsy CF who is hitting .262/.374/.403 with 7 HRs in AA and Colton Cain a 21 year old LHP who is pitching in high A with 4.20 ERA, 1.240 WHIP, 6.1 K/9 and 2.04 K/BB. Not top 100 MLB prospects and only Grossman was on BA's list of the Pirates' top 10 prospects at number 8. The Pirates also got some $.

If you were the Twins, would you trade Liriano for that?

Probably not, but mostly because Grossman is the headline prospect and he's essentially Aaron Hicks without the defensive range and arm. The other two prospects sat #13 and #16 on BA's Pirate Prospect List and profile as potential #4 starters or LOOGies.

But at the same time, in theory this is the trade you're going to get if you trade Liriano. Since you're not going to get the best and brightest from another team's system, the question becomes how do a Dave Hollins for David Ortiz trade and lift a valuable prospect out of the system without your trade partner realizing it? This used to be Terry Ryan's forte (Liriano himself being an example of it), but it hasn't for some time.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2012, 09:42 AM
that was so 2011
um.. no. You can make a qualifying 12.5M offer to Francisco, which I'd guess he will reject. If not, you get him back (and he's not a terrible option at that price) and if he does, you get the pick.

nicksaviking
07-25-2012, 10:01 AM
Liriano won't take the one year qualifying offer, he's likely going to be the best and youngest lefty on the market next year. Even if he stumbles down the stretch, some team is going to offer multiple years and his agent knows it. If that holds true, I'd take the draft pick over the grab bag the Astros got, but we really don't know if the Astros could have improved the quality of their return if they would have lessened the quantity of their return.

CDog
07-25-2012, 10:23 AM
um.. no. You can make a qualifying 12.5M offer to Francisco, which I'd guess he will reject. If not, you get him back (and he's not a terrible option at that price) and if he does, you get the pick.

It's a quibble between the "qualifying offer" and you having said "arbitration." Which seems like it was just a mis-use of the wording.

Siehbiscuit
07-25-2012, 10:38 AM
The Pirates and Astros are both cheap. Pirates gave up cheap prospects to get Wandy Rodriguez. The Astros saw this as an opportunity to salary dump and get a little something in return. This is more of the type of deal I would expect for Morneau. If the Twins move him it is a salary dump. Liriano and Rodriguez may be similar, Rodriguez has a price tag that Liriano doesn't.

USAFChief
07-25-2012, 12:58 PM
that was so 2011

Thrylos lays down some first class snark, yo.

Auto7
07-25-2012, 01:06 PM
Hey guys, first post here, but i've got more than i care to admit on another twins forum.

I probably have an unconventional view on Liriano in that I don't view him as somebody that we need to worry about what we get for him. I think if any team offers a top 25 prospect for the guy you have to take it before they can change their mind. I believe, even in our bad state, that our rotation is better served without him in it. The guy is a head case. If one or two bad things go wrong he melts down. I know he's had a better month or so (last night aside) but really he's not a guy you want on your team if you wish to be a playoff contender. This is why i'm actually flabbergasted that teams like the jays were interested in him. You want someone consistent and steady in the playoffs, not a guy like liriano. Heck no 2 pitches are even the same with him, he can't offer the exact same delivery twice (not that his delivery is worth repeating or anything)..

anywho, in conclusion, im' not in the slightest bit concerned if the twins get nothing for liriano. I mean definitely get the best you can but don't hold out too much.. We're better off just without him on the team.

UCLA_YANKEE_COLA
07-25-2012, 01:33 PM
Well that's silly, of course you want to get something for him. Regardless of how you feel about him, if another team values him (they do) you squeeze every last drop out of him. And if we can get a top 25 prospect for him I'll probably kiss JR on the mouth.

gil4
07-25-2012, 01:42 PM
I think if any team offers a top 25 prospect for the guy you have to take it before they can change their mind.

None of the three prospects the Astros got were even top 100. I would assume if someone offered a top 25, we'd take it. Isn't Sano right around 26? If someone ofers a prospect similar to Sano for 2 months of Frankie, we'd take it. David Stern might have to cross sports and get involved in that trade, though.

Auto7
07-25-2012, 01:44 PM
Well that's silly, of course you want to get something for him. Regardless of how you feel about him, if another team values him (they do) you squeeze every last drop out of him. And if we can get a top 25 prospect for him I'll probably kiss JR on the mouth.

Of course you want something for him but you dont worry too much about what that something is, there's absolutely no reason to be picky on what you get for liriano because while there is amazingly interest in him, the best thing you can do with him is just get him out of town.

Auto7
07-25-2012, 01:45 PM
None of the three prospects the Astros got were even top 100. I would assume if someone offered a top 25, we'd take it. Isn't Sano right around 26? If someone ofers a prospect similar to Sano for 2 months of Frankie, we'd take it. David Stern might have to cross sports and get involved in that trade, though.
I meant in their organization

Badsmerf
07-25-2012, 03:34 PM
I meant in their organization

Top 25 in an organization? Are you ****ing crazy? Liriano has been elite the last 10 starts and you want to trade him for a guy that wont even profile to be a AAAA player? Wow dude. Liriano may not be Roy Halladay for steadiness, but he's got talent that not many guys in baseball have. Talent isn't cheap. I'm in the boat that I'd be perfectly content offering arb and receiving a draft pick as compensation if he leaves. Trade him for ****ty minor league relief pitcher....

kab21
07-26-2012, 11:29 AM
then you offer Liriano arb.

12.5M is a lot of money to play the comp pick game with.