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twinscowboysbulls
07-24-2012, 12:09 PM
What are the Twins going to do with him this offseason? If memory serves me correct he has an option that we will obviously decline...What type of contract could he expect to receive to stay and rehab?

snepp
07-24-2012, 12:14 PM
$1 million, plus incentives, with a team option for the following season at $8 million.

Rosterman
07-24-2012, 12:31 PM
I suspect that, assuming he is about ready to begin rehab in spring training and has thrown some (he may not sign until February), Scott could get $3-5 million with a modest buyout ($250,000) and an option for 2014 in the $7-10 range. If he shows any signs of coming back mid-season, a team will take a much higher than $1 million gambit on him. Or he may pull a Roy Oswalt and not sign until he can actually show soemthing. But, again, someone will take a 2-year gamble on him that might surpass $10 million.

IdahoPilgrim
07-24-2012, 12:33 PM
The question is not what kind of contract he could expect to receive to stay and rehab, but what kind of contract he would be willing to accept. Yes, he's injured, but he's coming off arguably his best season ever. Somebody will take a chance on him in free agency, knowing that the first year will be crud but also hoping (with good cause, I think) that once he's fully recovered from TJ he will provide several years of solid pitching, and will give give him a multi-year deal with several million up front. To expect him to sign a team-friendly contract is unrealistic.

Boom Boom
07-24-2012, 12:35 PM
1-year deal with incentives up to 7 or 8 mil. No 2nd year option. I doubt he'll start the season on a roster.

Oxtung
07-24-2012, 12:54 PM
I don't understand this push for an incentive laden contract. For the sake of discussion let's assume he has a $3M base with an additional $5M possible with incentives for 2013. The Twins are going to go back and study other players coming off of TJ surgery then decide what Baker is likely to earn. Let's say they believe he'll make ~$6M. They are going to budget between $6M and the full $8M for him. As such there will be no salary relief derived from an incentive heavy deal. The only advantage I can see is to the Pohlads who stand to earn more money by paying less salary if Baker doesn't live up to his expectations.

jorgenswest
07-24-2012, 01:23 PM
For the Twins, they will have two choices.

1) Pick up his option
2) Let him go for no return

If he becomes a free agent, he will choose to leave the organization.

DPJ
07-24-2012, 01:27 PM
Why would Baker want to come back to the organization that open called him a pussy throughout spring training?

Boom Boom
07-24-2012, 01:33 PM
Why would Baker want to come back to the organization that open called him a pussy throughout spring training?

$9 million option.

DPJ
07-24-2012, 01:37 PM
$9 million option.

If the money is the same I truly doubt MN would be high on his list to return to.

Willihammer
07-24-2012, 02:48 PM
If the elbow is finally fixed then Baker is worth $9m

CDog
07-24-2012, 03:08 PM
Why would Baker want to come back to the organization that open called him a pussy throughout spring training?

It's already been covered that that never happened. I guess sticking to your BS story shows some moxie, but other than that very little.

CDog
07-24-2012, 03:09 PM
For the Twins, they will have two choices.

1) Pick up his option
2) Let him go for no return

If he becomes a free agent, he will choose to leave the organization.

That's stated as a fact. Is it one? Has he or his agent or anyone said this or is it just a guess?

DPJ
07-24-2012, 03:12 PM
It's already been covered that that never happened. I guess sticking to your BS story shows some moxie, but other than that very little.

Jesus this place is the worst...how the hell do you deny it didn't happen? You're the only person who's made such a claim but refuse to back it up.

CDog
07-24-2012, 03:20 PM
Jesus this place is the worst...how the hell do you deny it didn't happen? You're the only person who's made such a claim but refuse to back it up.

Yeah, the quote after quote after quote from actual news sources was a big time refusal. Sorry about that.

Oxtung
07-24-2012, 03:34 PM
Jesus this place is the worst...how the hell do you deny it didn't happen? You're the only person who's made such a claim but refuse to back it up.

How do you prove that something didn't happen?

Riverbrian
07-24-2012, 03:42 PM
I just did a google search with "Baker Twins Pussy".

The only thing that came back was a quote from DPJ on Twins Daily... A website for Shannon and Shauna Baker.

And a long list of porn sites.

Naturally, it'll be difficult to focus on the Twins for an afternoon at least... With these new web discoveries deserving my attention.

CDog
07-24-2012, 03:51 PM
How do you prove that something didn't happen?

There's a quite long post from me in another thread with quote after quote after quote from the time in question that pretty completely cover it.

TheLeviathan
07-24-2012, 03:53 PM
DPJ is colorful, but this is what he is referring to:


As has too often been the case recently Twins management subtlety cast some doubt on the legitimacy of Scott Baker's elbow injury before a second opinion from outside the organization led to Tommy John surgery (http://aarongleeman.com/2012/04/12/scott-baker-to-undergo-elbow-surgery-likely-ending-his-twins-career/). In speaking to the local media following surgery Baker addressed (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/149315075.html) what Jon Krawcynski of the Associated Press described as "whispers both inside and outside Target Field":

I knew I wasn't crazy. I knew there was some speculation that maybe I was babying it or taking it easy, but good grief. I did everything I possibly could to get better and to try to pitch with it. But that just wasn't going to happen.

When an injured player has to defend himself amid speculation that his injury isn't as serious as he claims and that speculation is fueled at least in part by the team that's obviously not a good situation. Toss in the ongoing questions about the competency of the Twins' medical staff and it gets even worse. On the other hand, Baker also admitted injured pitchers "are not always completely forthright with the staff" and made it clear that he doesn't hold a grudge.


There was some talk in ST about Baker not being "tough" rather than it being an injury. So it did happen, just not to the degree DPJ is suggesting. But enough, as demonstrated here, to catch Baker's attention. Although in other articles he also suggests no hard feelings, that he's to blame as well, and that he hopes to stay here.

TheLeviathan
07-24-2012, 03:55 PM
Personally, I'd like to see them extend an offer to Baker. Something along the lines of 3M for next year, 6M for the following year, and a team option at 8M for year three. It's minimal risk for a guy that has arguably been a #2 caliber starter for this team in recent seasons. He's just had significant injury issues, but 3/17 is a pretty minimal investment for the reward.

Though I have serious questions about him accepting something like this, it's just what I would offer initially.

Thrylos
07-24-2012, 04:16 PM
For the record: From this past Spring Training (and while Baker was pitching with an undiagnosed UCL tear) :

Source here (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/144309615.html?refer=y):



"Our starting pitcher put us in a hole today. He got his work in, yes, but we chased the ball all over the field and spent eight hours [out there] in the first three innings.
"That ain't good enough. He's got to pick up the pace and get going. He says his arm's fine and everything's good, then let's go. Get on the ball, throw the ball ... that's all I want to see from here on out.
"Everybody gets put to sleep and then we play a [poor] ballgame. Anything else?"



Funny thing, I was in that game. And even from the stands you could see that the guy was in pain and grimacing with every pitch. This shot is from that game:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7139/7019394157_9af7555974_o.jpg


And afterwards right before his one and only rehab start at Fort Myers, Ryan was saying that he was frustrated that Baker has not "let it rip". Then he finally ripped it all the way.

If TR and RG need to point any fingers towards anyone in the Baker situation, that is the miserable training and medical staff of the Twins (which supposedly the Executive of the Millennium was going to fix by now...)

They are not going to pick his option up; that would be inane. He needs more time than next season to return to form. And if he is a free agent, I suspect that he will not want to return and play for the Twins for less, unless there is some staff changes...

IdahoPilgrim
07-24-2012, 04:24 PM
Thank you for that quote, Thrylos. It confirmed something I remembered (and I did hear that interview when Gardy gave it), that Baker himself said he was fine. I remember Baker downplaying his decreased velocity a couple of times during ST and saying it was nothing, that it would come back up. We don't know what he was telling the medical staff and saying behind the scenes, but at least publicly Baker denied that he was injured until after he had been shut down. Then you began to hear the quotes about not feeling right and knowing something was wrong. Only then.

CDog
07-24-2012, 04:26 PM
DPJ is colorful, but this is what he is referring to:



There was some talk in ST about Baker not being "tough" rather than it being an injury. So it did happen, just not to the degree DPJ is suggesting. But enough, as demonstrated here, to catch Baker's attention. Although in other articles he also suggests no hard feelings, that he's to blame as well, and that he hopes to stay here.

And time and again after Baker threw 8-10 mph below his norm, he said he was fine--once saying "I'm not remotely concerned about velocity" (or very, very close to that...I'm not going to go back and find it AGAIN since it's already quoted on this site and on several if not all sources covering the Twins in Spring Training), and another time saying essentially that he would/could throw harder in actual game situations (as opposed to spring training games, not even bullpens) when he needed to and eventually the response from the organization was "if you're fine, then show it." I'm slow to play the "if" game, but I feel fairly confident that had the Twins NOT said that or its equivalent that the same folks would be talking from the other side of their mouth about how the Twins babied and coddled another player and let him call the shots. Some people thrive on complaining.

TheLeviathan
07-24-2012, 05:40 PM
Read the quotes above from Thyrlos as well. There was no reason for the organization to say those things publicly and, generally, if a little gets out to the press it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg. I acknowledged Baker's fault in it too, but it doesn't change the way the Twins approached it. You can put your fingers in your ears and sing "la la la", but plenty of information has been put in this thread to back up the fact that the Twins were calling him out for his effort/toughness. If you choose not to accept the reasoning behind it, fine, but don't deny it happened. It did.

I get that it's your "bit" to question every assertion everyone makes - but here it is being backed up and you're still denying it. Makes it hard to swallow your skepticism when you're doing it just for the schtick and not because you actually want evidence.

old nurse
07-24-2012, 05:59 PM
The brass can't win on this one. Say something vague or diplomatic about Baker in ST and they would be crucified for not having any knowledge of their pitcher. Report what Baker said to them and be crucified. Snide comments from members of this board would only serve as a reminder that there was no good to come of repeating what the players tell the manager, coaches and medical staff. Same holds true for Pavano this year. He denied being injured even though his pitching said something was wrong.

TheLeviathan
07-24-2012, 06:03 PM
When Pavano did the same things.....did Ryan and Gardy talk about him the same way they did Baker? Or did they characterize that as typical of a gutsy, battling veteran?

The organization could have communicated their concerns much more professionally than they did. It's not about talking vs. not talking about it. It's about doing so without throwing the player under the bus. Which didn't happen in Baker's case, but (surprise!) did happen with Pavano.

Thrylos
07-24-2012, 06:26 PM
When Pavano did the same things.....did Ryan and Gardy talk about him the same way they did Baker? Or did they characterize that as typical of a gutsy, battling veteran?

The organization could have communicated their concerns much more professionally than they did. It's not about talking vs. not talking about it. It's about doing so without throwing the player under the bus. Which didn't happen in Baker's case, but (surprise!) did happen with Pavano.

+1

And btw, nobody knows anything about Pavano and Gardy is not whining about him and there are no health reports. Add "Cappie" to the list too. But that silence about Pavano is really telling. I think that both Pavano and Capps pitched their last games as Twins...

jorgenswest
07-24-2012, 06:28 PM
If the Twins believe in Baker, they need to show it by picking up the option. If he will be healthy by June, he will be an asset and in demand at the trade deadline. This comes down to the Twins medical team assessing his progress and readiness for 2013.

Brock Beauchamp
07-24-2012, 06:46 PM
If the Twins believe in Baker, they need to show it by picking up the option.

No way. You don't pick up $9m options on pitchers returning from surgery. No other team is going to offer him even one-third that much money guaranteed.

USAFChief
07-24-2012, 06:47 PM
I really can't imagine a scenario that has Baker pitching for the Twins in 2013.

old nurse
07-25-2012, 12:44 AM
I really can't imagine a scenario that has Baker pitching for the Twins in 2013.
Did you try mind altering substances?
All of the potential of Scott Baker will go elsewhere unless the Twins pick up the option. He may have been trying to pitch trough an injury. Concerning illness and injury, it would appear that many forget that many guys think if you forget about it long enough it will go away. Baker had hopes of his injury just going away if he ignored it. Pappa Gardy who is supposed to know better did not look out for him.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2012, 08:23 AM
Baker won't be worth 9M. He won't get anything close to that in FA. Someone will give him a 3M base salary for next year and then a much nicer salary for 2 or 3 years. I'm not against the Twins doing that, but once that option is declined, I have a tough time believing that Baker is going to come back here. How often do players return to the team that declined their nice, pretty expensive option? And then add a medical staff that has a knack for misdiagnosing things...

DPJ
07-25-2012, 08:36 AM
DPJ is colorful

You god damn racist!!!

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-25-2012, 09:00 AM
The problem with Baker heading into this season is both he and the Twins have every reason in the world not to shut him down for the season. I think they both handled the situation rather poorly, moreso the Twins with the bizarre front office comments. But when a player is heading into his walk year I imagine most will do anything to stay off the DL/surgery. It's the exact same thing that happened to Pavano, everyone could tell he was injured and had nothing left, but he tried to gut it out since it was his walk year as well.

Now Pavano will have to take a minor league deal with a team and Baker will be looking at a very low 1-2 mil guaranteed deal. I can't fault either for trying to gut it out as long as possible.

CDog
07-25-2012, 10:12 AM
Read the quotes above from Thyrlos as well. There was no reason for the organization to say those things publicly and, generally, if a little gets out to the press it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg. I acknowledged Baker's fault in it too, but it doesn't change the way the Twins approached it. You can put your fingers in your ears and sing "la la la", but plenty of information has been put in this thread to back up the fact that the Twins were calling him out for his effort/toughness. If you choose not to accept the reasoning behind it, fine, but don't deny it happened. It did.

I get that it's your "bit" to question every assertion everyone makes - but here it is being backed up and you're still denying it. Makes it hard to swallow your skepticism when you're doing it just for the schtick and not because you actually want evidence.

Thank you for the instructions. Those quotes were read already--in this thread, when they first came out in spring training, and again when DPJ made the same bogus claims a few weeks ago. Although I can't say I have the same ability to fabricate what may or may not be in the "iceberg" that you just decided is there. There simply isn't anything there that you're claiming is there. Baker said over and over again that he was fine. First it was "just tendonitis" that he said he went through every spring. Then he came back and threw with the velocity of a high school pitcher a few times and said each time that he was fine and that he wasn't remotely concerned. Eventually Gardenhire and Ryan said if he's fine, he needed to show it. The quote you mention above says nothing about his effort or toughness. It's about his pace. Not sure how you link those unless you're just looking for something to create drama. One could even reasonably make the case they were annoyed by his willingness to keep going out there without admitting how hurt he was.

And it's an absolute lie that I question every assertion that everyone makes. I don't get how people can only have negative opinions, but opinions are just that. Actual facts have never been questioned by me. I DO have a tendency to get annoyed and point it out when people invent garbage. I'm not the only one, nor should I be.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 10:16 AM
I don't get how people can only have negative opinions.

Apparently it makes you a realist, while anyone who might offer a positive opinion is a naive fool.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 10:16 AM
So the point is that everyone else is wrong and Cdog is right...got it.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 10:24 AM
So the point is that everyone else is wrong and Cdog is right...got it.

Nah, you think TR called Baker a pussy, Cdog thinks TR was just getting fed up with Baker playing softball when he kept saying he was fine and intimated if he was fine he should show it. I remember reading Tr's comments back in the spring and pretty much thinking the same thing as you. What is for certain is that it's a lot of presumptuous nonsense for anyone to think they know how Baker feels about Minnesota because of it.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 11:52 AM
Nah, you think TR called Baker a pussy, Cdog thinks TR was just getting fed up with Baker playing softball when he kept saying he was fine and intimated if he was fine he should show it. I remember reading Tr's comments back in the spring and pretty much thinking the same thing as you. What is for certain is that it's a lot of presumptuous nonsense for anyone to think they know how Baker feels about Minnesota because of it.

The point is that this was done to Slowey and Baker, but not Pavano and Capps. It's a typical refrain from this team to throw some players on the bus for just about anything and protect others no matter what.

The Twins did not have to say what they did about Baker publicly - they could have handled it the exact same way they did Pavano. The two situations are almost identical except that Baker did it in ST and Pavano did it when the games count. If you're going to mouth off frustrations to the media - then do it fairly. That's not too much to ask. And it's reasonable to think that it may frustrate Baker that he was singled out much like it did Slowey.

Disagreeing there is fine and understandable, pretending they didn't handle the Baker thing well is just dumb.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 11:56 AM
There simply isn't anything there that you're claiming is there.

Let me remake the claim - Baker was treated differently by the organization and called out unfairly in the press. His situation was treated differently than Pavano's when you could argue the same error was made but in a lower leverage situation. Baker said over and over again that he was fine, but so did Pavano. But no one questioned why he wasn't "letting it rip". You can take up the "whispers" with Kracinski - but he's more plugged in than you and he was making the "toughness" assertion on radio and implying it in print. It was done - sing "la la la" to yourself all day long but it's reality. You just look like a troll for denying it.

The unfairness of handling these two situations is not invented or made up. It's not as severe as what they did to Slowey, but it is unfair. You can argue Baker understands the unfairness because of his own errors on this issue - that's a valid point and I wouldn't take issue with it based on his own quotes in the paper - but what you're denying is just foolish. Trollish, quite frankly.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2012, 12:29 PM
The point is that this was done to Slowey and Baker, but not Pavano and Capps. It's a typical refrain from this team to throw some players on the bus for just about anything and protect others no matter what.



And Neshek, Hardy, and Perkins to name a few more. There is a track record here.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 12:31 PM
And Neshek, Hardy, and Perkins to name a few more. There is a track record here.

yeah the Protected At All Costs vs. Under the Bus in No Time lists would be pretty lengthy. Working hard to deny this is just baffling to me - lots of clubs do this (Ozzy comes to mind) - but that doesn't excuse it as a stupid way of going about your business.

DPJ
07-25-2012, 12:35 PM
And Neshek, Hardy, and Perkins to name a few more. There is a track record here.

Gardy praised Blackburn for pitching 90+ innings of crap baseball in the first half of 2010 even though he withheld an elbow injury from the staff. But there's "Gardy's guys" and everyone and if you're one of Gardy's guys he'll protect you all day. While the rest of called out constantly through the media.

CDog
07-25-2012, 01:01 PM
Let me remake the claim - Baker was treated differently by the organization and called out unfairly in the press. His situation was treated differently than Pavano's when you could argue the same error was made but in a lower leverage situation. Baker said over and over again that he was fine, but so did Pavano. But no one questioned why he wasn't "letting it rip". You can take up the "whispers" with Kracinski - but he's more plugged in than you and he was making the "toughness" assertion on radio and implying it in print. It was done - sing "la la la" to yourself all day long but it's reality. You just look like a troll for denying it.

The unfairness of handling these two situations is not invented or made up. It's not as severe as what they did to Slowey, but it is unfair. You can argue Baker understands the unfairness because of his own errors on this issue - that's a valid point and I wouldn't take issue with it based on his own quotes in the paper - but what you're denying is just foolish. Trollish, quite frankly.

And you can keep making up things that I said all you want, but it doesn't make them true. You can keep bringing up situations that I haven't touched here, but that makes them your inventions and that's all. And you can call people names all you like, but that doesn't help the discussion or make them so. I would counter that THAT is rather trollish. Quite frankly.

The best you can do to come up with a mention of Baker's toughness or grit or whatever is a third hand claim of a whisper from between the lines. I haven't seen any quote where it actually happened, and you (nor anyone else) has provided an instance where it did. "I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine" responded to with "Well then why are you throwing 10 mph slower than in the past?" That's what happened. Everything else is you and others trying to create drama and add things that weren't said. Whether or not that was right or fair or anything else is your opinion and I've not made any claim about whether that opinion is reasonable or not. It's an opinion, so have at it.

As for your Pavano comparison, he was throwing 3 or 4 mph slower than his normal, not 10. So there's a difference, in that might be something he could pitch through. Also, there are those that have been on this very site claiming the Twins DID throw him under the bus (depsite there being no evidence of that, either).

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 01:03 PM
As for your Pavano comparison, he was throwing 3 or 4 mph slower than his normal, not 10.

Yeah, hopeless. This is just absurd - made me chuckle though. You win, won't mess with your skepticism-guised trolling.

CDog
07-25-2012, 01:07 PM
And Neshek, Hardy, and Perkins to name a few more. There is a track record here.

The issue with Perkins was whether or not he could be assigned to the minors as opposed to DL'ed as a major leaguer. I don't remember there ever being an issue with management claiming he wasn't hurt or wasn't tough enough. Was there? I DO recall him doing a similar thing where he didn't disclose an injury until well after the fact.

Also don't ever recall anyone questioning Hardy's injuries. Source?

Don't remember much of the Neshek situation. I thought the "controversy" over his finger/hand issue was as much from his end as management's. Again, don't remember that much. Was there ever a question that he was hurt when he was getting TJ surgery?

CDog
07-25-2012, 01:19 PM
Yeah, hopeless. This is just absurd - made me chuckle though. You win, won't mess with your skepticism-guised trolling.

Once again...say it's absurd, add snotty little comment...but it's from actual data. So there's that.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 01:30 PM
Once again...say it's absurd, add snotty little comment...but it's from actual data. So there's that.

You're right, how silly of me not to realize there is a magical number between 4mph and 10mph at which point an organization is entitled to drag the issue into the press. Is it 6mph or 7 at which this threshold is hit?

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 01:35 PM
The point is that this was done to Slowey and Baker, but not Pavano and Capps. It's a typical refrain from this team to throw some players on the bus for just about anything and protect others no matter what.

The Twins did not have to say what they did about Baker publicly - they could have handled it the exact same way they did Pavano. The two situations are almost identical except that Baker did it in ST and Pavano did it when the games count. If you're going to mouth off frustrations to the media - then do it fairly. That's not too much to ask. And it's reasonable to think that it may frustrate Baker that he was singled out much like it did Slowey.

Disagreeing there is fine and understandable, pretending they didn't handle the Baker thing well is just dumb.

Absolutely agree, it was poorly handled.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 01:38 PM
Absolutely agree, it was poorly handled.

Yeah, sorry if I gave you the wrong impression being snide. From everything you've said we appear to be pretty close to the same page about this team. The finger/dike analogy I completely agree with.

And found tastelessly amusing!

Oxtung
07-25-2012, 03:56 PM
What does any of the last 2 pages of this thread have to do with the OP? Somehow a discussion about how much Baker should be offered turned into a pissing match about whether the Twins Organization throws players under the bus. While that may be worth discussing / looking into it deserves it's own thread; as Baker's contract does. The only relation I can see is in regards to Baker's desires to stay in MN and regardless what was said the only way to know that is to hear from Baker.