PDA

View Full Version : Trade Deadline Heartache.



Fanatic Jack
07-23-2012, 11:57 PM
I was bouncing off the walls and smiling with delight back in early November when it was announced Terry Ryan was returning to be the Twins General Manager again. Bill Smith is a very nice man but clearly made some very bad decisions affecting the future of the organization. I honestly believed at the time Smith was replaced because of his inability to evaluate talent but clearly it was more than that. I’m starting to play devil’s advocate and think the main reason was all about MONEY. I think Pohlad, St. Peter, and the boys met with Smith and asked him about his off-season plan to turn a team around that had lost 99 games. My belief is Smith looked at them and said he wanted to resign Cuddyer, Kubel, and Nathan to deals. Smith also indicated he planned on signing 1-2 free agents on the market as well. Smith told them the only way he could do this is if the team increased payroll by about $10-15 million. This is where the conversation ended immediately. Pohlad knew he wanted to cut payroll but nobody could of imagined it would be by $20 million
.
What has Terry Ryan done with his limited payroll? He let Cuddyer leave and replaced him with a cheaper more powerful Josh Willingham. He let Nathan and Kubel leave as free agents and both were All-Stars this year with their new clubs. He signed free agents Jamey Carroll, Ryan Doumit, Matt Capps, Jason Marquis, and Joel Zumaya. Right now only Willingham and Doumit look like quality signings. Carroll has been solid but is hitting .242 and at times really shown his age. Capps, Marquis, and Zumaya were all just terrible deals. The trade deadline is approaching fast and Ryan appears to have missed his opportunity to deal players at their peak value. The Twins refuse to trade Morneau or Willingham for some unknown reason. Span was hitting over .300 in May and now his average is down to .280. He has suffered with some dizziness and has dropped several fly balls for no reason. Liriano should have been dealt before the game in Chicago tonight but instead he was allowed to pitch. The end result is he was shelled and gave up 7 runs, 3 HRs, in 2.2 IP. The bottom line is the team can’t give Liriano away after his latest clunker and he could turn into the next Delmon Young. Last year Young was given away to Detroit in August for two career minor leaguers Cole Nelson and Lester Oliveros. Capps should have been traded in May when he was racking up saves but instead Ryan waited and now he is on the disabled list. The Twins look to be heading into a trade deadline heartache and Ryan needs to be held accountable for the massive mistake of holding on to players for too long.

FrodaddyG
07-24-2012, 12:02 AM
I tried plugging this into Google translate and it kept telling me it already was in English...

Fanatic Jack
07-24-2012, 01:11 AM
Yeah right.

Shane Wahl
07-24-2012, 01:39 AM
Carroll is not done yet, put obviously the Capps re-signing was almost barbarically stupid as the Nick Blackburn contract.

Lester Oliveros is bound to be a good contributor for the Twins in 2013 and Cole Nelson is not done either.

Liriano needs to be traded for one top prospect and one sleeper B prospect, OR one pre-arb good pitcher and a low level B- prospect. Short of that, trade him later in a package with Valencia and Pugh or Watts.

drunksam
07-24-2012, 01:45 AM
I tried plugging this into Google translate and it kept telling me it already was in English...

ditto...it reads more like a junior high girl's ranting on the latest trendy movie/pop star/whatever thing that really isn't interesting, but looks pretty and now disappoints because it's aged thing.

So many May (trades in May???? Really?) deals passed up....WTF, grow up and realize we have been dealing from a position of weakness and the deadline isn't even here yet (close, but **** if we were going to deal for that beautiful Japaneses man that swings a pretty bat). It just got weaker in some respects, much like most of my bar nights picking up women of lose morals (Early in the night it may seem like I have something to offer, but in those Midwest bars they eventually turn on the lights and it doesn't look so pretty), but there's still hope to pick up a decent stray or two. Prospect that is.

Maybe I'm just numb to it now.

Pius Jefferson
07-24-2012, 01:54 AM
Is this the same Jack that calls up the 1500 call in show with Doogie?

PseudoSABR
07-24-2012, 02:00 AM
I really like your font.

twinsnorth49
07-24-2012, 02:17 AM
ditto...it reads more like a junior high girl's ranting on the latest trendy movie/pop star/whatever thing that really isn't interesting, but looks pretty and now disappoints because it's aged thing.

So many May (trades in May???? Really?) deals passed up....WTF, grow up and realize we have been dealing from a position of weakness and the deadline isn't even here yet (close, but **** if we were going to deal for that beautiful Japaneses man that swings a pretty bat). It just got weaker in some respects, much like most of my bar nights picking up women of lose morals (Early in the night it may seem like I have something to offer, but in those Midwest bars they eventually turn on the lights and it doesn't look so pretty), but there's still hope to pick up a decent stray or two. Prospect that is.

Maybe I'm just numb to it now.

The loser talking about his drunken, late night bar triumphs is telling guys to grow up, funny. Talk about junior high crap.

Highabove
07-24-2012, 03:22 AM
The loser talking about his drunken, late night bar triumphs is telling guys to grow up, funny. Talk about junior high crap.

Yea, I agree.

The Forum has dropped a few notches over the last month.
It was bound to happen.

FrodaddyG
07-24-2012, 03:59 AM
Yea, I agree.

The Forum has dropped a few notches over the last month.
It was bound to happen.
Trust us, we're less pleased about us being here than you are.

kab21
07-24-2012, 04:34 AM
Is the OP crying about losing Delmon Young? The same Delmon that is currently hitting with a .689 OPS?

When did Liriano ever have much trade value? His ERA's by month this year are 11, 4.5, 3 and 5 after he was horrible last year. his latest clunker didn't help but teams regarded him as a pretty questionable trade target regardless.

I think Smith said that more money would fix last year's problems and management questioned the team's ability to compete. Ryan (imo) said that the team would need to rebuild and so far we are seeing that. I also see a lot of complaining about payroll but then they ignore the almost 15M (tops in the majors) that the Twins have plowed into the draft and int'l FA. Payroll will go down again this year but that is so the Twins aren't stuck with a bunch of aging FA's when the farm system starts coming thru. I do hate the Capps decision though.

diehardtwinsfan
07-24-2012, 08:34 AM
you are going to win and lose some in FA. Cuddy was overpriced, and Willingham was the right move, as was Doumit. I didn't like everything Ryan did, but he hit the picks that mattered most, so in that I'll give him pass. I do hope that he's looking hard in free agency for pitching for 2013 if the plan is to be reasonably competitive....

Brock Beauchamp
07-24-2012, 08:37 AM
you are going to win and lose some in FA. Cuddy was overpriced, and Willingham was the right move, as was Doumit. I didn't like everything Ryan did, but he hit the picks that mattered most, so in that I'll give him pass. I do hope that he's looking hard in free agency for pitching for 2013 if the plan is to be reasonably competitive....

I don't understand how anyone could call this past offseason a failure. Carroll was meh but Doumit was a good signing and Willingham was a great one. The huge oversight was pitching but most of us knew that going into the season. Ryan did a damned good job considering his budget.

J-Dog Dungan
07-24-2012, 08:42 AM
there are several points that I would like to make about this blog:
1. I really like the Carroll signing because it brings stability and defense to the infield.
2. Zumaya's deal wasn't horrible, it was just a low-risk, high-reward kind of deal that went towards the low risk.
3. I believe that the Twins are actively shopping both Morneau and Willinghammer, but that don't mean that they have found the right one yet.
4. I think most GM's, like me, would put last night's debacle with Liriano up to one of those bad starts that all pitchers have sometimes (Verlander in All-Star Game :), but you are right, it probably does lower his trade value
5. Lester Oliveros, when healthy, hasn't been that bad and looks like a fairly good bullpen guy if he can keep injuries and walks under control. With Cole Nelson, you are probably right; but then again, we all thought the Billy Bullock for Diamond deal was the wrong move to make.
6a) Nobody was expecting Capps to get injured, as he had stayed relatively healthy while with the Twins
6b) Not many people would be giving away a "proven" (for what it's worth) reliever/ closer in May, because the likelyhood of you getting a good deal that early in the season is very low.
7. Ryan isn't holding on too players too long, he is (hopefully) letting them build up their trade value so that other teams would be desperate to get their hands on them so they might give up more for the Hammer or Morneau than we might think they should.
8. If we could have spared the payroll, I wouldn't have minded the Twins resigning Nathan, because he has been deadly while with the Rangers this year.
9. The Capps deal was all right and was fairly effective until he got injured
10. the Marquis deal, again, was one of the low-risk, high reward kind of deals that made Ryan look like a genius the last stretch he was GM
11. I have to believe that Span is just going through a slump and/or dealing with the same kind of stress at the Trade Deadline that he did last year.
12. I would say that Josh Willinghammer's peak value is right now, actually, because there are so many teams that are desperate for a righty power bat that the Twins, if they get the right offer (and believe me, the Twins should make sure the deal for them is like the Hershel Walker deal was for whoever traded with the Vikings), might actually be willing to part with Willingham.

Thrylos
07-24-2012, 08:49 AM
Ryan (imo) said that the team would need to rebuild and so far we are seeing that.

If he thought that, why did he sign a bunch of 30-some year olds last off-season (Marquis, Carroll, Doumit, Willingham) ? I suspect that Ryan said that this team will be ok with just pennies being pinched.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-24-2012, 08:52 AM
Honest question:

Does the original poster understand that Major League Baseball works a little differently then Fantasy baseball?

The reason why Span/Willingham/Capps/Liriano all weren't traded in May is because there is next to no market for them. I'd imagine any team looking to bring Span on will be more focused on his long term numbers rather than a 1 month sample size, that would seem prudent since they would be getting him for 3 years or so.

Overall this seemed like a pretty baseless rant that had no purpose or point.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-24-2012, 08:57 AM
If he thought that, why did he sign a bunch of 30-some year olds last off-season (Marquis, Carroll, Doumit, Willingham) ? I suspect that Ryan said that this team will be ok with just pennies being pinched.

You realize that not all rebuilds are 4+ year rebuilds right? When he said they needed to be rebuilt I imagine he had a 2-3 year timeline in mind (good chance to win division in 2014). Willingham, Doumit and Caroll all filled a need at the time, Willingham was the bat set to replace Kubel/Cuddyer, Doumit was the back up catcher that we have been begging for ever since Butera got his first major league at bat and Carroll provided some insurance and stability at the MI spots.

Even when a team is rebuilding they have a responsibility to put a major league club onto the field night in and night out, signing 1 year contracts is never a bad move and Doumit preformed great in that role and looks like he will be a big part of the rebuilding club.

Carroll is hurting nothing long term as is Doumit, unless you think that giving Nishioka, Casilla or the next Tolbert more playing time at SS/2B would help the team as would giving Butera more at bats behind the plate. Neither of these guys are hurting the rebuilding effort!

Fanatic Jack
07-24-2012, 08:58 AM
Twins need to clean house and soon. Texas did it a few years ago when Nolan Ryan took over. St. Peter, Ryan, Rantz, Johnson, Scouts, Gardenhire, and trainers all need to go. However, working for the Pohlad family is great job security because nobody ever gets fired. Heck they even re-hired Bill Smith after his dismal job. This is a MLB team not a charity.

Brandon
07-24-2012, 09:03 AM
Outside of the Marquis signing, I am happy with what Ryan did during the offseason. I bet within 2 years we have one of the top farm systems in baseball. We had a solid draft, will get high draft picks next year, signed some decent international prospects, and hopefully will get to trade Liriano for something of value. Maybe Span too unless Willingham gets traded for more. I don't think it is a good idea to trade 2 OF's at this time unless we really get great offers on both players. The good thing about Span is that he will hold value next trade deadline when players like Hicks, Benson, Bigley, Arcia are ready to get their chance. Same for Willingham. Although I really like Span and Willingham because of their contracts. They have to be some of the most team friendly contracts out there.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-24-2012, 09:03 AM
I don't understand how anyone could call this past offseason a failure. Carroll was meh but Doumit was a good signing and Willingham was a great one. The huge oversight was pitching but most of us knew that going into the season. Ryan did a damned good job considering his budget.
Pretty much this.

With limited funds he added two impact bats for less than 10 million dollars, moving forward over the next couple years the lineup appears to be in pretty good shape, of course there are still issues of 2B/SS, but when you have 7 other competant hitters in the lineup you can afford to have your puntos, casillas and Doziers at the bottom 1 or 2 spots of the lineup. The real issue you have is when you have 3-4 sub .700 OPS guys in your lineup all at once.

At this point Ryan should have 20 or so million to dedicate to starting pitching this off-season, if Span and Morneau are traded that number could jump to close to 40 million to spend. I like his chances to be honest, not only because of this past off-season, but because he has had so much success in the past with this club. 6 division titles in 9 years with teams he put together is track record Billy Beane and about 22 other GM's wishes they had.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-24-2012, 09:06 AM
Twins need to clean house and soon. Texas did it a few years ago when Nolan Ryan took over. St. Peter, Ryan, Rantz, Johnson, Scouts, Gardenhire, and trainers all need to go. However, working for the Pohlad family is great job security because nobody ever gets fired. Heck they even re-hired Bill Smith after his dismal job. This is a MLB team not a charity.
They repositioned Smith in the organization. I will be the first to say that Smith was a pretty awful GM, that doesn't mean he can't be an asset in other areas of the organization though, if anything I applaud the Twins and Smith for not just kicking him to the curb but finding him a role where he can continue to benefit the team like he did prior to his GM stint.

johnnydakota
07-24-2012, 09:18 AM
Is the OP crying about losing Delmon Young? The same Delmon that is currently hitting with a .689 OPS?

When did Liriano ever have much trade value? His ERA's by month this year are 11, 4.5, 3 and 5 after he was horrible last year. his latest clunker didn't help but teams regarded him as a pretty questionable trade target regardless.

I think Smith said that more money would fix last year's problems and management questioned the team's ability to compete. Ryan (imo) said that the team would need to rebuild and so far we are seeing that. I also see a lot of complaining about payroll but then they ignore the almost 15M (tops in the majors) that the Twins have plowed into the draft and int'l FA. Payroll will go down again this year but that is so the Twins aren't stuck with a bunch of aging FA's when the farm system starts coming thru. I do hate the Capps decision though.
the twins drafted a pair of 18 year olds... which decade will they help in?

johnnydakota
07-24-2012, 09:20 AM
They repositioned Smith in the organization. I will be the first to say that Smith was a pretty awful GM, that doesn't mean he can't be an asset in other areas of the organization though, if anything I applaud the Twins and Smith for not just kicking him to the curb but finding him a role where he can continue to benefit the team like he did prior to his GM stint.

bathroom attendent maybe? after all didnt he have input into the gay stadium called target field?

Brock Beauchamp
07-24-2012, 09:22 AM
bathroom attendent maybe? after all didnt he have input into the gay stadium called target field?

"Gay stadium"? Tone it down. I don't have many hot buttons but that's one of them.

TheLeviathan
07-24-2012, 09:28 AM
So if I start a thread praising the "closer mentality" of Matt Capps, the "veteran presence" of Jamey Carroll, and Ben Revere's "Smiley Factor"....will we officially have jumped the shark here already?

twinsnorth49
07-24-2012, 09:44 AM
Trust us, we're less pleased about us being here than you are.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I mean that figuratively, not literally by the way.

Riverbrian
07-24-2012, 09:56 AM
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I mean that figuratively, not literally by the way.

Hey North... Good to have you back. Haven't seen you posting in awhile. The Board isn't the same unless you are here.

notoriousgod71
07-24-2012, 10:36 AM
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I mean that figuratively, not literally by the way.


If Rodney King were still around I have a feeling he'd have some sage-like advice for everyone.

twinsnorth49
07-24-2012, 10:38 AM
Hey North... Good to have you back. Haven't seen you posting in awhile. The Board isn't the same unless you are here.

Cheers RB, too much negativity for awhile, I love when guys try to prove you're wrong about liking something. I'm a baseball fan and especially a Twins fan, in the big picture there is lots of good discussion here, you just have to filter out the crap.

Nick Nelson
07-24-2012, 10:44 AM
Trust us, we're less pleased about us being here than you are.
I'm sorry, is someone forcing you to post here?

kab21
07-24-2012, 10:45 AM
If he thought that, why did he sign a bunch of 30-some year olds last off-season (Marquis, Carroll, Doumit, Willingham) ? I suspect that Ryan said that this team will be ok with just pennies being pinched.

A bunch of 30+ yr olds on short and relatively small contracts. One of those old men might land the Twins a really nice prospect or two at the trade deadline or next season. I think that is a pretty effective way to rebuild when you aren't outrageously poor (and the Twins aren't).

I really don't understand why the only possible rebuild scenario that you understand is the burn it to the ground and completely start over type of rebuild. signing a couple of veterans on short contracts is fine as long as they don't block legitimate prospects.

kab21
07-24-2012, 10:49 AM
the twins drafted a pair of 18 year olds... which decade will they help in?

Ugh... Really? You're upset that the Twins drafted HS players as part of a rebuild? You don't fix 100 loss teams in an offseason and in the draft you trade upside (HS) for shorter time to the majors (college) picks. There is no correct way to draft but buxton was considered by many to be the best prospect in the draft. I think you are a little to impatient if you think the Twins should have drafted differently.

Shane Wahl
07-24-2012, 10:53 AM
bathroom attendent maybe? after all didnt he have input into the gay stadium called target field?

Are you 13 years old?

Shane Wahl
07-24-2012, 10:55 AM
Cheers RB, too much negativity for awhile, I love when guys try to prove you're wrong about liking something. I'm a baseball fan and especially a Twins fan, in the big picture there is lots of good discussion here, you just have to filter out the crap.

I agree. I am cynical as hell, but it has been too much for me lately.

Riverbrian
07-24-2012, 11:38 AM
Cheers RB, too much negativity for awhile, I love when guys try to prove you're wrong about liking something. I'm a baseball fan and especially a Twins fan, in the big picture there is lots of good discussion here, you just have to filter out the crap.

I hear ya and Shane... It drove me out for a little while myself. The combination of that and seemingly less posts from guys like you did seem to tip the balance in the wrong direction.

There are guys on this board worth reading... You are one of them. There are some new guys worth reading as well.

There are some on this board that I disagree with but are still worth reading but yeah... we gotta get the balance back.

snepp
07-24-2012, 11:45 AM
Get a room. :p

zenser
07-24-2012, 11:46 AM
I feel that the past offseason was a step in the right direction. Would I liked to see Cuddyer and or Kubel resigned, of course I would have. Having them sign elsewhere hurt in both production and in team leadership. Cuddyer's leadship and willingness to play anywhere was huge for us in the past and Kubel just recently was leading the NL in RBI. At the time Willingham signed, Cuddyer and Kubel were still unsigned and the writing on the wall was that one of them if not both weren't coming back. The Zumaya and Marquis deals both didn't pan out but at the time they were low risk, high reward deals. Those aren't any different than other posters on here wanting to go after Jonathan Sanchez after he was DFA. Jamey Carroll hasn't been great by any means but it was a signing to help with the infield defense. He has done that and he has had a few clutch ABs. Jarod Burton was a very nice under the radar signing that was a low risk high reward signing. Unlike Zumaya and Marquis, Burton has given us the high reward. Doumit was another good signing. He isn't Jason Kubel but he is a realiable bat and is a decent option behind the plate or at DH. Looking at FA catchers for this coming offseason, other than the guys we wouldn't sign like McCann or Martin, he is the best option for a backup catcher.

If the Twins are inclided to make a trade at the deadline, I really hope they get value. Willingham doesn't hurt them if he isn't traded. His value is high right now and with Carlos Quentin resigning with San Diego, his stock wont get any higher than it is right now. But to trade him, you better be blown away with an offer. Same goes for Span. As for Liriano, I think the Twins need to work hard on an extension. If he doesn't sign an extension, pursue a trade. The market should be good considering what Detroit gave up for Sanchez and what is rumored in the Dempster deal. I admit I think Liriano is shaky and you don't know what you are going to get. I admit April was terrible for him. But since the return to the rotation, that Liriano is just as good as any sencond tier FA that is likely to sign with the Twins in the offseason. For all the dreamers, give me two reasons why a top tier FA pitcher would want to sign here? I know there are other second tier guys out there (see my comments below). Would you take Liriano over say an Anibel Sanchez or Edwin Jackson? Both guys I mentioned are just like Liriano. Both have shown flashes and both have had bad stretches.

Going into this next offseason, starting pitching is obviously going to be the focus. The twins are set in the OF, corner inf, and catcher. I don't know what is available for FA middle inf, but signing a starting 2B and allowing Carroll to come off the bench should be a priority behind signing 2-3 free agent pitchers. I can see the Twins targeting SPs like Brandon McCarthy and Shaun Marcum. I would love them to go after Greinke or Hamels but honestly, I don't think that is feasible. Hamels is going to end up in a big market and Greinke is generating a lot of attention now at the deadline and teams like Atlanta and Washington are being rumored as possible fits for him. I don't see them coming to Minnesota. These are just my opinions...agree or not, they are just opinions.

Brock Beauchamp
07-24-2012, 11:51 AM
I agree. I am cynical as hell, but it has been too much for me lately.

Bad teams tend to bring out the worst in people. It's hard for an entire board not to turn on itself when a team has a feeling of hopelessness around it.

It will pass. And if it doesn't, I'm sure we'll start cleaning it up by force if necessary.

beckmt
07-24-2012, 12:04 PM
I don't think that it was expected that neither Gibson or Wimmers would not be in the rotation by 2013. At the current time Gibson may be by the end of next year, but do not expect Wimmers to be there until 2014 at the earliest. That means we still need a pitching upgrade as the starters the Twins currently have will not do well against the good hitting clubs.
Liriano when on is the Twins best pitcher, off he is what he is last night. Need a fair return for him, but that will play out after Dempster is traded and possibly Garza. Expect Ryan will have to take a low A or B+ prospect at best and those would be in A ball.
Willingham or Span will probably be traded if the offer is good. Pitching is still the primary need, but clubs are more reluctant than ever to give up veru good pitching prospects. Twins do not need a group of #3 starters in return.

JB_Iowa
07-24-2012, 12:15 PM
I wasn't a big fan of hiring Terry Ryan back as GM -- primarily because I think this whole organization is way too much of an "old boys club". I realize that atmosphere isn't unique to Minnesota but I do think that the Twins take it to a new level -- if you examine people in front office and management positions, there is very little change. And, regardless of what Ryan thinks, I don't think that changing titles or a bit of a shift in responsibilities really invokes many new ideas or much energy.

And I do agree with the original poster that the primary motivating factor in the firing/rehiring of Bill Smith was that the Pohlads wanted to reduce payroll. But then, I thought that was pretty evident already last fall.

It's hard for me to criticize the failure to resign Cuddyer and Kubel. Willingham appears to be a more than adequate outfield replacement for Cuddyer (albeit LF not RF) for less money. And while I was more interested in resigning Kubel than Cuddyer, I think he wanted a change from TF. Now he's got a new stadium that is closer to his home in California. I doubt that he'd be producing at the same level in Minnesota. And frankly, I couldn't see spending the money for Nathan when I didn't expect this team to be very good. (Although given a fairly healthy Mauer and Morneau, I did hope that this team would be better than they are now).

The Capps and Carroll signings left me pretty much at "meh". Doumit has been a pleasant surprise and is becoming one of my favorites. As for what has or hasn't happened with trades, its pretty hard to make a judgment when you don't know what discussions have occurred.

While I don't think Ryan has done a fantastic job, I don't think it has been horrible either. And that, is perhaps my biggest gripe -- the Twins just seem mired in mediocrity and nobody seems willing to do anything to change it. Something has to give -- either a massive change of players, a change in the on-field staff, a shake-up in the front office -- or some meaningful combination of all 3. If nothing much changes, I'm afraid we'll still be having these mediocrity discussions in 2014 and 2015. I'm prepared for a mediocre 2013 but I'd like some glimmer of hope that things will improve significantly thereafter.

deanlambrecht
07-24-2012, 12:24 PM
You realize that not all rebuilds are 4+ year rebuilds right? When he said they needed to be rebuilt I imagine he had a 2-3 year timeline in mind (good chance to win division in 2014). Willingham, Doumit and Caroll all filled a need at the time, Willingham was the bat set to replace Kubel/Cuddyer, Doumit was the back up catcher that we have been begging for ever since Butera got his first major league at bat and Carroll provided some insurance and stability at the MI spots.

Even when a team is rebuilding they have a responsibility to put a major league club onto the field night in and night out, signing 1 year contracts is never a bad move and Doumit preformed great in that role and looks like he will be a big part of the rebuilding club.

Carroll is hurting nothing long term as is Doumit, unless you think that giving Nishioka, Casilla or the next Tolbert more playing time at SS/2B would help the team as would giving Butera more at bats behind the plate. Neither of these guys are hurting the rebuilding effort!

Exactly this.

zenser
07-24-2012, 12:32 PM
While I don't think Ryan has done a fantastic job, I don't think it has been horrible either. And that, is perhaps my biggest gripe -- the Twins just seem mired in mediocrity and nobody seems willing to do anything to change it. Something has to give -- either a massive change of players, a change in the on-field staff, a shake-up in the front office -- or some meaningful combination of all 3. If nothing much changes, I'm afraid we'll still be having these mediocrity discussions in 2014 and 2015. I'm prepared for a mediocre 2013 but I'd like some glimmer of hope that things will improve significantly thereafter.

I think we will still be in mediocrity in 2014 and 2015. The young core that is coming up will take lumps along the way and there needs to be something added to the minor league system in terms of pitching. I like the upside of both Gibson and Wimmers. As a previous poster said, 2014 is more realistic for these two. Beyond these two and Diamond, who are the starting pitchers? Hendriks? I think they need to get another young arm or two that will be ready in 2014 or 2015. They will also need to be active in free agency to complement these young arms.

Look at the Royals, plenty or young talent on the field and plenty of young arms that are hurt and having Tommy John surgery. Without building starting pitching in the minors, I am afraid the 2014 and 2015 Twins will look similar to the Royals this year with lots of young talent on the field and a bunch of young pitchers or mediocare veterans.

drjim
07-24-2012, 04:52 PM
While I don't think Ryan has done a fantastic job, I don't think it has been horrible either. And that, is perhaps my biggest gripe -- the Twins just seem mired in mediocrity and nobody seems willing to do anything to change it. Something has to give -- either a massive change of players, a change in the on-field staff, a shake-up in the front office -- or some meaningful combination of all 3. If nothing much changes, I'm afraid we'll still be having these mediocrity discussions in 2014 and 2015. I'm prepared for a mediocre 2013 but I'd like some glimmer of hope that things will improve significantly thereafter.

I think this is a fair complaint, though I think saying nobody is willing to do anything about it is a little unfair. They did fire the GM.

It is probably impossible to radically turn over a MLB roster.

I think they have to make a change to the field staff after this season. I thought Gardy was a goner but I think he may hang on. It would be crazy to have two bad seasons and keep the exact same coaching staff. That will be the true test of whether this is an old boys club or not.

JB_Iowa
07-24-2012, 05:54 PM
But why did they fire the GM? Was it because of his mediocre job performance or was it because Bill Smith wasn't on board with cutting the payroll? Does this ownership and top management have a commitment to excellence or only a commitment to the almighty dollar?

(In fairness, they also changed the manager and pitching coach at Rochester although I think that was primarily about keeping the Rochester affiliate happy -- if they hadn't been complaining bitterly I'm not sure that would have happened.)

I wish I was convinced that the field staff would change after this season. I wish I was even more convinced that there would be front office changes. While turmoil in the staff isn't good, SOME change frequently creates a new vitality.

Finally, I wish that I felt like they were as committed to improving this team as they are to making a profit.

Brock Beauchamp
07-24-2012, 06:02 PM
But why did they fire the GM? Was it because of his mediocre job performance or was it because Bill Smith wasn't on board with cutting the payroll?

It probably had something to do with Smith's proclivity to wander the hallways of Target Field, screaming about how Jim Hoey was going to "figure it out" any day now.

The guy had absolutely no roadmap for the franchise. He made moves seemingly at random.

Buck Nasty
07-24-2012, 06:19 PM
The guy had absolutely no roadmap for the franchise. He made moves seemingly at random.


I'm by no means a Bill Smith defender, but I do believe he had a plan - it just simply failed miserably. The Santana trade should have netted us a minimum of a couple good young arms out of Humber/Mulvey/Guerra. And Gomez was billed as "5 tool" (as always - over used). Then giving up Bartlett/Garza for Delmon was going to be the the piece de resistance. Whoops. Santana/Garza/Bartlett where three pretty good players who netted little or nothing back. The combination of those failed trades and the injuries to M&M pretty much sunk the team for a couple years.

Brock Beauchamp
07-24-2012, 06:35 PM
I'm by no means a Bill Smith defender, but I do believe he had a plan - it just simply failed miserably. The Santana trade should have netted us a minimum of a couple good young arms out of Humber/Mulvey/Guerra. And Gomez was billed as "5 tool" (as always - over used). Then giving up Bartlett/Garza for Delmon was going to be the the piece de resistance. Whoops. Santana/Garza/Bartlett where three pretty good players who netted little or nothing back. The combination of those failed trades and the injuries to M&M pretty much sunk the team for a couple years.

Maybe, but I have a hard time following a plan that involves trading the best pitcher in baseball and your best young starter in the same offseason.

While those trades definitely could have gone better, I'm not sure where Smith expected to find pitching in the short term.

twinsnorth49
07-24-2012, 06:45 PM
Get a room. :p

Is there a spare one in your Mom's basement, or do you and your sister share the same one?

twinsnorth49
07-24-2012, 06:48 PM
It probably had something to do with Smith's proclivity to wander the hallways of Target Field, screaming about how Jim Hoey was going to "figure it out" any day now.

The guy had absolutely no roadmap for the franchise. He made moves seemingly at random.


I couldn't agree with this more, people can criticize Ryan for seemingly not making as big a difference as some would like but I do believe he will put this team back to a competitive state with a clear direction and purpose. Smith was winging it.

kab21
07-24-2012, 08:04 PM
Why are there so many people that mention Wimmers and Gibson together on this board? Other than being 1st rd selections in consecutive years they have nothing in common. Gibson looks to have a nice MLB career while Wimmers has mountains to climb just to become a top 10 prospect again.

Thrylos
07-24-2012, 08:11 PM
It probably had something to do with Smith's proclivity to wander the hallways of Target Field, screaming about how Jim Hoey was going to "figure it out" any day now.

The guy had absolutely no roadmap for the franchise. He made moves seemingly at random.

While the interim has a roadmap? I cannot believe that... Just look at the heap of MiLB FAs he signed this offseason and brought in ST hoping that a couple will stick. That not a roadmap, it is playing darts.

Brock Beauchamp
07-24-2012, 08:15 PM
While the interim has a roadmap? I cannot believe that... Just look at the heap of MiLB FAs he signed this offseason and brought in ST hoping that a couple will stick. That not a roadmap, it is playing darts.

Ryan made a bunch of logical moves outside of expecting Marquis to be any good. It wasn't hard to figure out his game plan, though he obviously should have put more emphasis on the rotation.

He certainly didn't trade off 40% (the best 40%, to boot) of the rotation in one offseason, that's for sure.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-24-2012, 08:17 PM
While the interim has a roadmap? I cannot believe that... Just look at the heap of MiLB FAs he signed this offseason and brought in ST hoping that a couple will stick. That not a roadmap, it is playing darts.

Your bit is getting extremely tiresome.

snepp
07-24-2012, 08:22 PM
Wait a minute, bringing in heaps of free minor league players, in the hopes that you find some usable league minimum players, is a bad thing?

Seth Stohs
07-24-2012, 08:34 PM
I'd say that the Twins did very, very well with their minor league free agents this year. They clearly had a plan of adding some arms who have had some upper-level success. He picked out a couple of position players that have helped.. Some won't work, and frankly, too many have contributed this year, but that's not a bad thing at all.

twinsnorth49
07-24-2012, 08:45 PM
Your bit is getting extremely tiresome.
seconded, I'll add lame as well.

kab21
07-24-2012, 10:25 PM
While the interim has a roadmap? I cannot believe that... Just look at the heap of MiLB FAs he signed this offseason and brought in ST hoping that a couple will stick. That not a roadmap, it is playing darts.

What exactly was the downside to this?

It seems to be well worth it considering the success that Burton has had.

Riverbrian
07-24-2012, 11:50 PM
They have a big board and TR writes stuff on it.

Underneath his wife's request to bring home Milk, Bread and Catfood is an organizational depth chart.

TR also has spread sheets and information on his computer with scouts projections, contract information, performance reviews and information that is compiled on players inside the organization and from other teams throughout the minor league system and outside of professional ball.

And if that wasnt enough... He has a personal secretary that keeps him on schedule and will hand him stuff if he has misplaced it.

He also has an assistant GM plus three special assistants to the GM (actually 8 special assistants if you count Molitor, Herbie, Oliva, Carew and Blyleven).

They also have a research manager and just plain ole researchers.

The Twins have a director of baseball operations and a minor league director and people who work under them.

They have a director or scouting and a pro scout coordinator and a boatload of plain ole scouts who go to multiple games at major league parks, minor league parks, along with college and high school fields. I should also mention that the scouting happens not only on American soil but also internationally. These scouts bring stopwatches and radar guns just to be equipped with thing a ma jigs that help in evaluation. Plus the scouts talk with coaches and find out information about a players makeup and they write stuff down with pen, pencil or type it on iPads or laptops or smart phones and send it off. If that wasn't enough... Scouts and their opinions are not just taken as gospel. They have cross checkers who reevaluate any lofty advocacy for a scout in the field to make sure the guy isn't out of his mind.

Terry Ryan also has an experienced major league manager, a manager at each level of the farm system, multiple coaches at all levels of the organization including pitching, hitting, base running, catching, infield and outfield defense specialists.

Heres the kicker. A bunch of these guys actually get together from time to time and hold meetings to communicate and they send email back and forth when they are not meeting and they talk on the phone as well. Numbers for everyone are saved on cell phones. If Terry Ryan needs to talk with his pro scouting coordinator. He just scrolls down his contact list on his phone to Vern or his secretary will call him and say "please hold for Terry Ryan and then transfers the call to Him.

With all of these people working for the owner, Terry Ryan and the good of the organization. I would be surprised if there is no plan in place.

The overwhelming majority on this board including me. Have Fangraphs and some internet reading material written by people not inside any organization and we use that to form opinions on players that we see occasionally at games we attend or watch on TV.

So let's hang em. Thats all the information I need. Fan Graphs and an opinion. I'm good to go.

old nurse
07-25-2012, 12:30 AM
Maybe, but I have a hard time following a plan that involves trading the best pitcher in baseball and your best young starter in the same offseason.

While those trades definitely could have gone better, I'm not sure where Smith expected to find pitching in the short term.
Blackburn, Humber, and Slowey. Gibson, Guerra, and Wimmers long term. Don't shoot the messenger. Really, short term I bet he thought the first three could carry the team and the next three would put the Twins over the top. It was a house of cards.

twinsnorth49
07-25-2012, 01:23 AM
They have a big board and TR writes stuff on it.

Underneath his wife's request to bring home Milk, Bread and Catfood is an organizational depth chart.

TR also has spread sheets and information on his computer with scouts projections, contract information, performance reviews and information that is compiled on players inside the organization and from other teams throughout the minor league system and outside of professional ball.

And if that wasnt enough... He has a personal secretary that keeps him on schedule and will hand him stuff if he has misplaced it.

He also has an assistant GM plus three special assistants to the GM (actually 8 special assistants if you count Molitor, Herbie, Oliva, Carew and Blyleven).

They also have a research manager and just plain ole researchers.

The Twins have a director of baseball operations and a minor league director and people who work under them.

They have a director or scouting and a pro scout coordinator and a boatload of plain ole scouts who go to multiple games at major league parks, minor league parks, along with college and high school fields. I should also mention that the scouting happens not only on American soil but also internationally. These scouts bring stopwatches and radar guns just to be equipped with thing a ma jigs that help in evaluation. Plus the scouts talk with coaches and find out information about a players makeup and they write stuff down with pen, pencil or type it on iPads or laptops or smart phones and send it off. If that wasn't enough... Scouts and their opinions are not just taken as gospel. They have cross checkers who reevaluate any lofty advocacy for a scout in the field to make sure the guy isn't out of his mind.

Terry Ryan also has an experienced major league manager, a manager at each level of the farm system, multiple coaches at all levels of the organization including pitching, hitting, base running, catching, infield and outfield defense specialists.

Heres the kicker. A bunch of these guys actually get together from time to time and hold meetings to communicate and they send email back and forth when they are not meeting and they talk on the phone as well. Numbers for everyone are saved on cell phones. If Terry Ryan needs to talk with his pro scouting coordinator. He just scrolls down his contact list on his phone to Vern or his secretary will call him and say "please hold for Terry Ryan and then transfers the call to Him.

With all of these people working for the owner, Terry Ryan and the good of the organization. I would be surprised if there is no plan in place.

The overwhelming majority on this board including me. Have Fangraphs and some internet reading material written by people not inside any organization and we use that to form opinions on players that we see occasionally at games we attend or watch on TV.

So let's hang em. Thats all the information I need. Fan Graphs and an opinion. I'm good to go.

Amazing that they have this huge infrastructure aimed at identifying and developing talent and all they really need to do is check into Twins Daily for what to do. They could save a ton of money if they only knew this.

Riverbrian
07-25-2012, 02:10 AM
Amazing that they have this huge infrastructure aimed at identifying and developing talent and all they really need to do is check into Twins Daily for what to do. They could save a ton of money if they only knew this.

The dirty little secret is that Twins Daily is exactly what Terry Ryan tried to use. At least he wanted to because he recognizes the cost savings.

However, Rocketpig and I can't agree on the value of Revere. Cdog and Vodkadave are at odds on another player. He tried to fire himself after reading Thrylos but after reading Seth Stohs he gave himself a raise instead. It all became too confusing so he's gone back to listening to his staff from the good ole boys club.

What a huge mistake on his part.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2012, 08:19 AM
While the interim has a roadmap? I cannot believe that... Just look at the heap of MiLB FAs he signed this offseason and brought in ST hoping that a couple will stick. That not a roadmap, it is playing darts.

That's true with any minor league free agents, otherwise theyd' be on the 40 man roster of some team. I expect every single team to do the exact same thing, and quite frankly, there's nothing wrong with that.... Unless you are the yankees, you are going to have to take these type of risks. The danger is when you expect too many to pan out.