PDA

View Full Version : Article: Frankie's Final Start?



Nick Nelson
07-22-2012, 10:10 PM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?826-Frankie-s-Final-Start

raindog
07-23-2012, 02:13 AM
It's been an absolute delight watching Liriano since he rejoined the rotation. I would love to watch him dominate the White Sox tonight. And if he's traded, he'll definitely be missed.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
07-23-2012, 04:20 AM
I will be very disappointed if Minnesota doesn't keep Liriano.

ChiTownTwinsFan
07-23-2012, 07:22 AM
I'll be at the game tonight and hope he pitches a 'lights-out' game. Yes, a fine performance would help his value and leverage for the Twins to get a good package for him, but for me, more importantly, more than any other team, I just hate losing to the White Sox. Hope this trade stuff doesn't make its way to his head in any way.

jpodratz1
07-23-2012, 07:31 AM
I think it's worth noting the fact that Liriano has done exceptionally well since Butera has been his personal catcher. Earlier in the season when Gardy wanted to start the year with 2 catchers (Mauer & Doumit), his ERA was over 9. They later called up Butera from AAA but Frankie was already in the bullpen by then. After being moved back to the starting rotation Drew has been his personal catcher and his ERA has been under 3. Yesterday they teamed Drew with Sam Deduno and it was Sam's best start by far since his call up. I realize Drew Butera is a problem offensively but he is an asset handling pitchers and with the current state of the rotation, that should not be overlooked.

diehardtwinsfan
07-23-2012, 07:33 AM
I'm more mixed now when I hear he doesn't want to be traded, but obviously there's no long term plan in place either... It's still probably best that he be traded..

Brock Beauchamp
07-23-2012, 07:42 AM
I think it's worth noting the fact that Liriano has done exceptionally well since Butera has been his personal catcher. Earlier in the season when Gardy wanted to start the year with 2 catchers (Mauer & Doumit), his ERA was over 9. They later called up Butera from AAA but Frankie was already in the bullpen by then. After being moved back to the starting rotation Drew has been his personal catcher and his ERA has been under 3. Yesterday they teamed Drew with Sam Deduno and it was Sam's best start by far since his call up. I realize Drew Butera is a problem offensively but he is an asset handling pitchers and with the current state of the rotation, that should not be overlooked.

On the other hand, Butera caught Liriano last season and both were awful. In Liriano's best season, Mauer primarily caught him.

Let's not start dishing off credit to undeserving players. Liriano is pitching better because he's throwing harder, not because he has a different catcher.

UCLA_YANKEE_COLA
07-23-2012, 09:12 AM
On the other hand, Butera caught Liriano last season and both were awful. In Liriano's best season, Mauer primarily caught him.

Let's not start dishing off credit to undeserving players. Liriano is pitching better because he's throwing harder, not because he has a different catcher.

Quit with the reasonability. A few years ago I got my first massage and that night my grandma died. Therefore - massages kill grandmas.

diehardtwinsfan
07-23-2012, 09:12 AM
On the other hand, Butera caught Liriano last season and both were awful. In Liriano's best season, Mauer primarily caught him.

Let's not start dishing off credit to undeserving players. Liriano is pitching better because he's throwing harder, not because he has a different catcher.

he seems to be able to locate his fastball a bit better too. When he's walking 5 guys a start, he's usually a disaster, no matter how many guys he can strike out.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-23-2012, 09:17 AM
he seems to be able to locate his fastball a bit better too. When he's walking 5 guys a start, he's usually a disaster, no matter how many guys he can strike out.

Didn't we dispell the magic Butera notion in the other thread?

Thrylos
07-23-2012, 09:48 AM
I think it's worth noting the fact that Liriano has done exceptionally well since Butera has been his personal catcher. Earlier in the season when Gardy wanted to start the year with 2 catchers (Mauer & Doumit), his ERA was over 9. They later called up Butera from AAA but Frankie was already in the bullpen by then. After being moved back to the starting rotation Drew has been his personal catcher and his ERA has been under 3. Yesterday they teamed Drew with Sam Deduno and it was Sam's best start by far since his call up. I realize Drew Butera is a problem offensively but he is an asset handling pitchers and with the current state of the rotation, that should not be overlooked.

well... I think that it is a chicken and egg situation. The previous 2 seasons Twins' pitchers had the worst ERA and the highest opponent OPS with Butera rather than any other catcher. This season has been reversed. I suspect Liriano has a lot to do with that trend :) Here are the numbers (for the total Twins' pitching staff) :

2010:

Butera: ERA 4.13, OOPS .747,
Mauer: ERA 3.81, OOPS .723,
Ramos: ERA 3.29, OOPS .707,

2011:

Butera: ERA 4.92, OOPS .794,
Mauer: ERA 4.43, OOPS .775,
Rivera: ERA 3.91, OOPS .716,

2012:

Butera: ERA 3.84, OOPS .655,
Mauer: ERA 5.46, OOPS .851,
Doumit: ERA 5.06, OOPS .801,

So basically using your argument, based on 2011, Rivera and not Butera should have been the Twins' backup catcher.

jlovren
07-23-2012, 09:50 AM
I am not sure but it seems that he throwing a lot more sliders since May. Hmmmm.... more sliders means better pitching. Oh and massages kill grandmas.

COtwin
07-23-2012, 10:22 AM
I say we start a bunch of fake blogs talking up how it is all butera. Maybe even get Gardy to say something public. Then trade them as a package deal for more. Kill two rocks with one bird.

minn55441
07-23-2012, 10:30 AM
What happens to his value if he throws a No-No tonight? Can we still trade him? Does that violate one of those unwritten baseball rules?

I have always thought we should trade Frankie in that he is so inconsistent, but when I look at other teams pitching he is just the type we will be targeting in a trade. Plenty of upside and unfulfilled potential. I guess it all depends on what we get in return. If we get some real value, with players that will help us for seasons to come, I agreee with the trade. If we are just moving him to avoid losing him as a FA without any compensation, then I say keep him and see if we can come to an agreement on a 2 or 3 year deal after the season ends.

gil4
07-23-2012, 10:32 AM
I would like to see the Twins sign Liriano to an extension. He said he would like to stay - offer the chance. I just get the feeling that he is figuring out what it takes to be successful, and he's more worthy of a roll of the dice that anyone else out there. If something in the neighborhood of 3 years/$27M could get it done, I'd do it.

USAFChief
07-23-2012, 10:46 AM
Obviously the Twins should only sign Latino pitchers from this point forward. With the Latino Pitcher Whisperer behind the dish we'd have the greatest pitching staff ever assembled.

As to the subject of this thread, I hope that rather than Frankie's last start for the Twins, this is the one that convinces them that teams with little to no starting pitching should be assembling a major league staff, not dismantling one, and a 3 yr extension is announced this week.

Trading an outfielder or two for pitching makes sense. There are potential cheap replacements on the way, and plenty of serviceable and reasonably priced options in free agency every winter. Starting pitching is harder and costlier to come by.

Trading pitching for pitching is at best nothing more than spinning your wheels, and at worst you lose what you have and the prospects never amount to anything.

I still think the right moves now, and some money this winter, means we don't have to suffer through two or three more 90 loss seasons waiting for the "rebuild" to bear fruit. They have the money and the core of a team to turn this around next year, and without jeopardizing the future by dealing most of their minor league assets.

nicksaviking
07-23-2012, 10:48 AM
There is no need for Frankie the last two months of a broken season. If the Twins want him next year, they are just as able to sign him as any other team should they choose to this off-season. At this point there is no way he signs a mid-season extension seeing as he's the hottest pitcher in the league right now. If Hamels and/or Greinke end up signing deals with their current teams, Liriano and his agent are going to be licking their chops this off-season. To get a deal done now would mean the Twins would have to severly overpay.

DAM DC Twins Fans
07-23-2012, 10:53 AM
Whether or not it is the Drew factor, Frankie is pitching as well as he has in years. Do we sign him to a 3 year extension--very risky for a guy who is inconsistent?? Do we keep him and risk losing him for nothing in the fall?? No way would I offer him the $12million it would take to get compensation.

Hard call--if we trade him we must get a top notch prospect. I am not being paid the big bucks Terry Ryan is--so I wont make the call...

diehardtwinsfan
07-23-2012, 10:55 AM
Didn't we dispell the magic Butera notion in the other thread?

I wasn't disagreeing with Pig at all, if you notice I've consistently agreed with him on this topic... I just added that his ability to locate his fastball (which I'd argue has little to nothing to do with Butera) is also part of his resurgence.

PMKI
07-23-2012, 10:59 AM
If Liriano doesn't want to be traded like somebody up above said than maybe we can trade him and get some good prospects and then sign him again in the offseason.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-23-2012, 11:13 AM
If Liriano doesn't want to be traded like somebody up above said than maybe we can trade him and get some good prospects and then sign him again in the offseason.

If he doesn't want to be traded, we should trade him and that will make him want to come back in the off-season? huh?

John Bonnes
07-23-2012, 11:14 AM
I'll predict this is NOT his last start in a Twins uniform. He'll still be in a Twins uniform next Sunday. Because teams are having trouble sorting out if they're in it or not, teams are waiting to see who is really available before giving their best offer. This is going to go down to the wire.

(And from the Twins perspective, that's the way they should play it.)

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-23-2012, 11:16 AM
I wasn't disagreeing with Pig at all, if you notice I've consistently agreed with him on this topic... I just added that his ability to locate his fastball (which I'd argue has little to nothing to do with Butera) is also part of his resurgence.
Sorry it wasn't in direct reference to you, just to the topic being brought up agian that Butera is somehow a big part of Liriano's resurgence.

ashburyjohn
07-23-2012, 11:17 AM
Hard call--if we trade him we must get a top notch prospect. I am not being paid the big bucks Terry Ryan is--so I wont make the call...

The main reason I won't make a call is I don't know what kind of packages are being offered, nor what my scouts say about the players involved. Nor do I have a clear idea of what kind of money it would take to sign him to an extension. I'm in the camp of not trading him just for the sake of trading him; but if the offer is substantial, I'd be listening. And I'm very leery of a contract that could be untradeable if he reverts to recent form, a situation that would make Blackburn's look like a wise contract by comparison.

PMKI
07-23-2012, 11:22 AM
If he doesn't want to be traded, we should trade him and that will make him want to come back in the off-season? huh?

Well by that I am kind of assuming he wants to stay in Minnesota.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-23-2012, 11:25 AM
Well by that I am kind of assuming he wants to stay in Minnesota.

I think the Twins would be much better served trying to sign him now while they have exclusive negoitating rights. Rather then get a couple C+ prospects and then having to compete and overpay potentially in the FA market.

mike wants wins
07-23-2012, 11:26 AM
I've never understood waiting to the deadline. If Pittsburgh had Frankie and Span the last month, how many more wins would they have? Isn't there more value in having them early? This risk aversion, and waiting, is an example of some pretty old school, not so strategic, thinking.

tmerrickkeller
07-23-2012, 11:59 AM
This speaks to a larger issue, one that has been tangentially debated here and elsewhere....how do you decide what pieces to keep and what pieces to trade? Liriano might be our best chance for an ace, and cheaper than any other ace out there, but he's also our best trade bait. Willingham is signed to a friendly deal, but it's friendly to US as well as others, and having a masher for $7M/yr is good for any team, rebuilding or otherwise. The same arguments can be made for Span - he's on a team-friendly deal, so while he is good trade bait, he's also cheap and valuable to US. The long-term strategy is to keep all the valuable and inexpensive pieces, sign good contracts with young players to keep them valuable and inexpensive, and let the dead weight go and fill their shoes with new (not dead) weight. So if we could get anything for Pavano or Capps or Burton, you let them go because 2012 is done. Either you sign Liriano to a 2- or 3-year deal before the deadline, or you get what you can for him, because we aren't going to compete against everyone else in the free agent market at the end of the season, and (see above) 2012 is done. I'd also say that Morneau is in the same boat, but unless you can get something for him and not have to pay someone else to take him, then you keep him and let him go after next season (or trade him mid-season in 2013 if we're still this bad). So we end up keeping Mauer, Morneau, Plouffe, Carroll, Dozier, Willingham, Span, Doumit and Revere, try to lock up Frankie or trade him by the weekend, and hope for development of our young pitchers, or go spend a little on one or two free agents because Frankie, Capps, and Carl are gone, and our rotation is probably Blackburn, Diamond, Deduno, Walters and DeVries (which would give us money to spend on at least one higher-end FA pitcher). And I like that team's mix of speed, average, and power, especially if Morneau keeps improving, a decent bullpen. We'd need one or two starters, but if we can sign Frankie for 3/$27, I'd do it, and if we can sign Baker for $5, I'd do that, too.

John Bonnes
07-23-2012, 12:01 PM
I've never understood waiting to the deadline. If Pittsburgh had Frankie and Span the last month, how many more wins would they have? Isn't there more value in having them early? This risk aversion, and waiting, is an example of some pretty old school, not so strategic, thinking.

But that's the way negotiating works. I assure you: it isn't the Twins who want to wait. It's the other teams.

One of the first lessons of negotiation is that "time" is a point of leverage, and it's usually the buyer that can use that leverage. There is a big incentive for the seller to sell right now, but there is usually very little reason for the buyer to want to buy right now. They have done without this thing for most of their life - what's another 48 hours?

Yes, the team that wants Frankie, if they traded today, would get two extra starts, and that's not without value. But it's not worth overpaying for because they want to see if Hamels or Greinke or Sanchez or Garza might also be on the market. If those guys come on the market, the Twins will probably need to settle for a bit less than they are hoping for, but if they don't, then the Twins have several teams, some of whom are in competition with each other like the Braves and Nationals, battling it out for Frankie.

At that point "value" becomes a very relative term. They aren't computing if he's worth 2 or 2.4 WAR over the rest of the season. They're looking at increasing their chances of the postseason or watching their competitor increase THEIR chances of the postseason. It becomes a "win or go home" scenario. Suddenly that high-upside guy in A ball seems very far away from helping the team. Maybe he is worth throwing into the package.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-23-2012, 12:04 PM
But that's the way negotiating works. I assure you: it isn't the Twins who want to wait. It's the other teams.

One of the first lessons of negotiation is that "time" is a point of leverage, and it's usually the buyer that can use that leverage. There is a big incentive for the seller to sell right now, but there is usually very little reason for the buyer to want to buy right now. They have done without this thing for most of their life - what's another 48 hours?

Yes, the team that wants Frankie, if they traded today, would get two extra starts, and that's not without value. But it's not worth overpaying for because they want to see if Hamels or Greinke or Sanchez or Garza might also be on the market. If those guys come on the market, the Twins will probably need to settle for a bit less than they are hoping for, but if they don't, then the Twins have several teams, some of whom are in competition with each other like the Braves and Nationals, battling it out for Frankie.

At that point "value" becomes a very relative term. They aren't computing if he's worth 2 or 2.4 WAR over the rest of the season. They're looking at increasing their chances of the postseason or watching their competitor increase THEIR chances of the postseason. It becomes a "win or go home" scenario. Suddenly that high-upside guy in A ball seems very far away from helping the team. Maybe he is worth throwing into the package.

Yeah, it should also be noted that there have been plenty of trades that have taken place weeks before the deadline in the past.

snepp
07-23-2012, 12:25 PM
I think it's worth noting the fact that Liriano has done exceptionally well since Butera has been his personal catcher. Earlier in the season when Gardy wanted to start the year with 2 catchers (Mauer & Doumit), his ERA was over 9. They later called up Butera from AAA but Frankie was already in the bullpen by then. After being moved back to the starting rotation Drew has been his personal catcher and his ERA has been under 3. Yesterday they teamed Drew with Sam Deduno and it was Sam's best start by far since his call up. I realize Drew Butera is a problem offensively but he is an asset handling pitchers and with the current state of the rotation, that should not be overlooked.

I don't think it's worth noting at all. I find it to be nothing more than a coincidence, and no amount of Dickbert's on-air anecdote-filled Butera slobberjobs is going to change that.

amjgt
07-23-2012, 12:45 PM
Whether or not it is the Drew factor, Frankie is pitching as well as he has in years. Do we sign him to a 3 year extension--very risky for a guy who is inconsistent?? Do we keep him and risk losing him for nothing in the fall?? No way would I offer him the $12million it would take to get compensation.

Hard call--if we trade him we must get a top notch prospect. I am not being paid the big bucks Terry Ryan is--so I wont make the call...

At this point, you have to at least make the QO (if we don't trade him). I mean, even if he regresses a little for the rest of the year, he would have to turn down the 1 year / 12mil offer, right?

I mean, he'd be looking at 3/35 or 4/45, so why would he even consider the 1/12 offer. So, if nothing else comes from this hot stretch from Frankie, he at least pitched well enough for us to make the 1/12 offer and have him turn it down. SO, at least we would get a sandwich pick out of it.

Once he hits free agency, he's gone. Not because he doesn't like it here (maybe he does maybe he doesn't) but because there's going to be some team out there that is much less risk-averse than the Twins who will offer 2-3mil more per season or 1-2 years more than the Twins are willing to go.

I'd like it if they made a 3/27 offer right now, before really shopping him. If he says no (which I would expect he would), then so be it and you explore your trade options, all the while having the QO compensation pick in the back of your mind to determine if a given offer gets you enough back for Liriano.

mike wants wins
07-23-2012, 01:15 PM
John, this close, I agree. But why didn't Pittsburgh trade a month ago, and get 30 starts from Span, and 5-7 more from Liriano? That's a big difference in value. If a team starts of 20-5, why not go get 2 more good players, and protect your huge lead?

diehardtwinsfan
07-23-2012, 01:20 PM
John, this close, I agree. But why didn't Pittsburgh trade a month ago, and get 30 starts from Span, and 5-7 more from Liriano? That's a big difference in value. If a team starts of 20-5, why not go get 2 more good players, and protect your huge lead?

cause it's a small sample size? and because everything is working, so why disrupt things? Because most teams 25 games in aren't necessarily ready to sell, and so you overpay even more? There's good reason to be risk adverse that early in the season

diehardtwinsfan
07-23-2012, 01:26 PM
This speaks to a larger issue, one that has been tangentially debated here and elsewhere....how do you decide what pieces to keep and what pieces to trade? Liriano might be our best chance for an ace, and cheaper than any other ace out there, but he's also our best trade bait. Willingham is signed to a friendly deal, but it's friendly to US as well as others, and having a masher for $7M/yr is good for any team, rebuilding or otherwise. The same arguments can be made for Span - he's on a team-friendly deal, so while he is good trade bait, he's also cheap and valuable to US. The long-term strategy is to keep all the valuable and inexpensive pieces, sign good contracts with young players to keep them valuable and inexpensive, and let the dead weight go and fill their shoes with new (not dead) weight. So if we could get anything for Pavano or Capps or Burton, you let them go because 2012 is done. Either you sign Liriano to a 2- or 3-year deal before the deadline, or you get what you can for him, because we aren't going to compete against everyone else in the free agent market at the end of the season, and (see above) 2012 is done. I'd also say that Morneau is in the same boat, but unless you can get something for him and not have to pay someone else to take him, then you keep him and let him go after next season (or trade him mid-season in 2013 if we're still this bad). So we end up keeping Mauer, Morneau, Plouffe, Carroll, Dozier, Willingham, Span, Doumit and Revere, try to lock up Frankie or trade him by the weekend, and hope for development of our young pitchers, or go spend a little on one or two free agents because Frankie, Capps, and Carl are gone, and our rotation is probably Blackburn, Diamond, Deduno, Walters and DeVries (which would give us money to spend on at least one higher-end FA pitcher). And I like that team's mix of speed, average, and power, especially if Morneau keeps improving, a decent bullpen. We'd need one or two starters, but if we can sign Frankie for 3/$27, I'd do it, and if we can sign Baker for $5, I'd do that, too.


There's one big thing, what valuable asset can be replaced easier? You can argue that Span will be replaced sooner than later, whether that be by Revere now or by Hicks in a year or so, but Span is much more expendable to this team than anyone else. Willingham is a bit different. He's harder to replace now and there's less options to replace his production in the system.

With Liriano, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the Twins have tried to tie him up, but at this point he's not tied up and at this point there's no way he accepts a cheap deal, nor should he. He's going to be a commodity this offseason and if he wants to return here, there is no doubt they will sign him. But it is clearly in his best interest to wait it out that this point, and given history, it's in the Twins best interest to get something good for him... that could be a draft pick or a prospect. At this point, I'd bet a prospect or two as too many teams need what he is doing.

edavis0308
07-23-2012, 01:37 PM
Looks like Dempster is going to the Braves. At first look, I would think it would hurt Liriano's trade value because there is one less suitor in on him. I am starting to think that it might actually benefit him because there is one less impactful arm on the market. Thoughts?

PseudoSABR
07-23-2012, 01:55 PM
Well the Cubs get Delgado, which is high price for Dempster, and encouraging news for setting the market for starting pitching. Liriano, please, pitch lights out tonight.

PMKI
07-23-2012, 02:13 PM
Jim Bowden tweeted "Cubs not resting on their laurels continue trade discussions with Dodgers on deal that would send Matt Garza for package including Zach Lee"

USAFChief
07-23-2012, 02:15 PM
Well the Cubs get Delgado, which is high price for Dempster, and encouraging news for setting the market for starting pitching. Liriano, please, pitch lights out tonight.

I would be disappointed in the return for Liriano if all they got was Randall Delgado.

PseudoSABR
07-23-2012, 02:18 PM
I would be disappointed in the return for Liriano if all they got was Randall Delgado.
I'm not sure that's all they got. Delgado is already in the majors, so my thinking is if the Twins are willing to take someone not as close to the majors, they should be able to get someone with higher upside. I was worried that the compensation rules would devalue trading for impending FAs...

But you've been advocating resigning Liriano (right?), so you value him a bit more than many of us do...

diehardtwinsfan
07-23-2012, 03:11 PM
I would be disappointed in the return for Liriano if all they got was Randall Delgado.

I haven't seen the kid pitch, but he's 22 with a career k/9 in the minors of 9.47 with a career BB/9 of 3.42. Those peripherals are pretty nice, even though they haven't translated to the big leagues... That seems like some pretty nice cost controlled upside. Woudl we be able to draft better with a compensation pick, because this seems like a pretty nice pickup for the Cubs.

USAFChief
07-23-2012, 03:15 PM
I haven't seen the kid pitch, but he's 22 with a career k/9 in the minors of 9.47 with a career BB/9 of 3.42. Those peripherals are pretty nice, even though they haven't translated to the big leagues... That seems like some pretty nice cost controlled upside. Woudl we be able to draft better with a compensation pick, because this seems like a pretty nice pickup for the Cubs.

And all that minor league success came at A ball or lower levels. Since reaching AA he's had less success than Liam Hendricks.

jimbo92107
07-23-2012, 03:33 PM
I am not sure but it seems that he throwing a lot more sliders since May. Hmmmm.... more sliders means better pitching. Oh and massages kill grandmas.

Sorry, had to say it. So hard to find a good masseuse these days. They're all looking for sex!

jimbo92107
07-23-2012, 03:33 PM
I am not sure but it seems that he throwing a lot more sliders since May. Hmmmm.... more sliders means better pitching. Oh and massages kill grandmas.

Don't kill the massager. Sorry, had to say it. So hard to find a good masseuse these days. They're all looking for sex!

Winston Smith
07-23-2012, 03:35 PM
10 years of supp. pick by the Twins, 2000-2009 track record is not good!
Aaron Heilman (didn't sign), Matt Fox, Jay Ranville, Hank Sanchez, Shooter Hunt and Matt Bashore.
Zero for 6 may be one reason our talent is lacking.
Better be sure Frankie is worth 12+ mill not sure the pick is worth much.

diehardtwinsfan
07-23-2012, 03:38 PM
and his success has hardly been bad... granted, he was a bit better in the lower minors, to be expected, but he still struk out 8.44/9 in 21 starts at AA and had 10.3/9 in 4 starts in AAA that same year. The ERA wasn't quite there, and his AAA numbers are definitely in SSS territory given that he's had 5 starts there in his career. His HR/9 rate has gone up at each level though his major league line is not that far off from his minor league career line. And he's 22. Most pitchers experience some bumps when they come up. I guess I don't see why this is a bad prospect. Could the Twins find better with a supplemental pick in the first round?

Nick Nelson
07-23-2012, 03:44 PM
I would be disappointed in the return for Liriano if all they got was Randall Delgado.

Really? Wow. Not me.

Thrylos
07-23-2012, 05:25 PM
Delgado was #46 prospect this season and #35 last season according to the BA. If the Twins get a 22 year old MLB-ready SP top 50 prospect for Liriano, it would not be bad at all...

PseudoSABR
07-23-2012, 05:33 PM
A Sanchez (plus Infante) fetched, Turner a top 20 prospect.

Brock Beauchamp
07-23-2012, 05:35 PM
I would have been really happy with Delgado for Liriano.

PseudoSABR
07-23-2012, 05:39 PM
So far, I'm pretty surprised by what teams are willing to give up...

darin617
07-23-2012, 05:51 PM
I will be very disappointed if Minnesota doesn't keep Liriano.

I will be very disappointed if Minnesota keep Liriano. Time to rebuild, he is the big trade chip and there is nothing stopping the Twins from signing him back in the offseason.

darin617
07-23-2012, 05:53 PM
On the other hand, Butera caught Liriano last season and both were awful. In Liriano's best season, Mauer primarily caught him.

Let's not start dishing off credit to undeserving players. Liriano is pitching better because he's throwing harder, not because he has a different catcher.

Don't say that, we can package Butera along with Frankie and get a top prospect in return.

jm3319
07-23-2012, 08:59 PM
that sound you hear is the window of opportunity for trading liriano for anything decent closing. 2.2 IP 7ER and 3HR doesn't inspire confidence in any buyer.

TheLeviathan
07-23-2012, 10:08 PM
Hopefully this didn't cost us a Delgado/Turner type prospect. Unload him before anyone recognizes the real Frankie again.

old nurse
07-24-2012, 12:39 AM
The way Liriano pitched tonight i would say he wants to remain a Twin.

twinsnorth49
07-24-2012, 02:44 AM
So much for that throwing harder theory. His location is way more key to his success, when's he got his two seamer running low and away it sets up his slider, the rest is gravy.

twinsfan214
07-24-2012, 12:44 PM
Groan! The way Frankie's outing went last night, no one will want him. He'll be gone anyway but it would have been sooooo nice to get something for him. UGH!

Nick Nelson
07-24-2012, 01:19 PM
I think people are overreacting a little bit to one bad start. GMs don't make any decisions on the basis of one outing.

twinsnorth49
07-24-2012, 06:53 PM
I think people are overreacting a little bit to one bad start. GMs don't make any decisions on the basis of one outing.

I concur, he gave up the 3 big shots and wasn't locating well to say the least but it wasn't like he had no clue where the strike zone was, unlike earlier in the year. I think he remains interesting considering the needs of some teams and who is still out there.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-24-2012, 07:49 PM
I concur, he gave up the 3 big shots and wasn't locating well to say the least but it wasn't like he had no clue where the strike zone was, unlike earlier in the year. I think he remains interesting considering the needs of some teams and who is still out there.

Don't try to sugarcoat that start, it was awful.

Still like Nick said, this isnt going to hurt his value THAT much, though it certainly doesn't help.

twinsnorth49
07-24-2012, 08:56 PM
Don't try to sugarcoat that start, it was awful.

Still like Nick said, this isnt going to hurt his value THAT much, though it certainly doesn't help.

I'm not sugarcoating it, you're right it was awful,I just felt it wasn't reason to think he's going to revert back to pre bullpen Frankie.

Nick Nelson
07-25-2012, 12:32 AM
And in fairness, the three guys he gave up homers to (Konerko, Dunn, Rios) have all been pretty good power hitters this year. It's not like he was giving up bombs to Alexei Ramirez. Sometimes good hitting beats good pitching.

Brock Beauchamp
07-25-2012, 07:12 AM
And in fairness, the three guys he gave up homers to (Konerko, Dunn, Rios) have all been pretty good power hitters this year. It's not like he was giving up bombs to Alexei Ramirez. Sometimes good hitting beats good pitching.

Especially when those hitters are taking their swings in US Cellular.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 08:27 AM
Are we sure it wasn't what he ate, the weather, or the alignment of the moon as well? And to think, I was going to quip the other day about how long until the soft excuses start rolling up.....

He didn't pitch well. It's ok, it isn't the end-all, be-all of what Frankie is, bad starts happen to everyone. Soft excuses for a bad start just sound so damn desperate and silly.

Nick Nelson
07-25-2012, 11:29 AM
I would say what's silly is acting like one bad start outweighs the 10 good ones before it. Every pitcher has days where they get hit.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2012, 11:45 AM
I would say what's silly is acting like one bad start outweighs the 10 good ones before it. Every pitcher has days where they get hit.

No disagreement - there is some hyperventilating happening in this thread that isn't necessary. I still think Frankie's a headcase I want gone, but this one start neither proves nor disproves anything. It's one start.

But let's not make excuses. Having a bad start against a good team and good hitters isn't something to tip your hat too - if anything that would make other teams contending even more wary of him. It's a silly excuse for what was just a bad start, plain and simple.