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gunnarthor
07-17-2012, 10:13 AM
In the latest ask BA column (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/ask-ba/2012/2613732.html), Callis suggests that Buxton would be #21 in baseball, one spot ahead of Sano. He put 7 recent draftees and one international signing in the new top 50.

nicksaviking
07-17-2012, 10:25 AM
I notice that four players drafted after Alex Wimmers in the first round of the 2010 draft are ranked higher than Buxton.

mike wants wins
07-17-2012, 10:26 AM
And Appel would have been in the top 15 or so for all minor league pitchers.....so he's likely (if not hurt) to be in top of the class next year also (which is also what KLAW has been saying).

Everyone loves Buxton....let's hope they are right.

gunnarthor
07-17-2012, 10:29 AM
I notice that four players drafted after Alex Wimmers in the first round of the 2010 draft are ranked higher than Buxton.

Yeah, that Wimmers pick hurt. I also regret not taking Trout over Gibson but I still have hope for Gibson. Wasn't a big fan of the Wimmers pick in the first place.

mike wants wins
07-17-2012, 10:34 AM
Ouch, didn't notice that on Wimmers....and later picks.....not a fan of low risk picks in round 1, go for upside.....

DPJ
07-17-2012, 01:39 PM
Wimmers will hopefully be the last time the Twins take another bullsh*t PTC low-ceiling pitcher again in the first round.

God I hated that ****ing pick.

Seth Stohs
07-17-2012, 02:04 PM
Yeah, that Wimmers pick hurt. I also regret not taking Trout over Gibson but I still have hope for Gibson. Wasn't a big fan of the Wimmers pick in the first place.

Imagine how upset Twins fans would have been if the team had taken Trout over Gibson that year....

And, Wimmers was an easy pick at that time as well, deemed by many experts the starting pitcher closest to the big leagues.

Injuries happen.

Seth Stohs
07-17-2012, 02:06 PM
Wimmers will hopefully be the last time the Twins take another PTC low-ceiling pitcher again in the first round.

Is a future #3, maybe #2, a low ceiling pitcher?

mike wants wins
07-17-2012, 02:14 PM
You think it is likely at all he is a two? That would make him one of the fifty best pitchers in the game. I see super low chance....like almost zero.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 02:16 PM
Weird, it's like people in this thread are claiming that sometimes high draft picks in baseball don't work out! What a weird sport this is, we certainly know this isn't the case in the NFL, NBA or NHL.

Seriously, Whimmers was a solid pick at the time, to go back and play captain hindsight now is stupid. Unless you had a legit gripe at the time like DPJ, but he hates everything the Twins do.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 02:18 PM
You think it is likely at all he is a two? That would make him one of the fifty best pitchers in the game. I see super low chance....like almost zero.

At the time he was drafted he had the #2 upside, though #3 was prob the far more likely scenario, also when he first hit the scenes in Ft Myers he dominated with 23 strike outs in 15.2 innings.

Nobody could predict that he would get the yips and then get injured (I think these things were actually one in the same at the end of the day)

Pitchers get hurt, it happens.

DPJ
07-17-2012, 02:22 PM
Is a future #3, maybe #2, a low ceiling pitcher?

Future 3, maybe 2...are you kidding me. Where have the standards gone for pitchers?

Wimmers always had a fingy arsenal of pitches, a has a plus change but that was it. He was a backend starter at best with a low-ceiling but a good probability of hitting it.

But this looks like one first round pick that isn't gonna work out.

Thrylos
07-17-2012, 02:28 PM
Imagine how upset Twins fans would have been if the team had taken Trout over Gibson that year....



Probably

And in the "Twins way" and the way Rantz develops players, Trout would have probably been in New Britain right now...

DPJ
07-17-2012, 02:33 PM
Unless you had a legit gripe at the time like DPJ, but he hates everything the Twins do.

Well maybe if the made smarter moves we wouldn't have this garbage 90+ loss team to watch, hell everyone should hate everything the Twins do cause that's what has lead to this 100 million dollar mess.

twinswon1991
07-17-2012, 02:36 PM
Probably

And in the "Twins way" and the way Rantz develops players, Trout would have probably been in New Britain right now...


Sadly true.

mike wants wins
07-17-2012, 02:38 PM
My opinion of wimmers upside has nothing to dwith his injury. He does not have Scott baker or better stuff not from any scouting report I have read. Maybe I am wrong, but to project someone as a two us to put them at or better than baker when baker is at his best. There just are not that many very good pitchers on the planet right now.

FrodaddyG
07-17-2012, 02:44 PM
Sadly true.
No way.

Guy that young needs two seasons of short season ball. This would be his "repeating Beloit to learn to hit the ball the other way and move runners over" season.

gunnarthor
07-17-2012, 02:45 PM
Imagine how upset Twins fans would have been if the team had taken Trout over Gibson that year....

And, Wimmers was an easy pick at that time as well, deemed by many experts the starting pitcher closest to the big leagues.

Injuries happen.

Good points, I liked the Gibson pick at the time and still do. I just wish we had Trout using 20/20 hindsight.

On Wimmers, I wasn't thrilled with the pick and wanted the Twins to do something else although I didn't know what the something else should be. I remember a lot of angst from fans for the Twins not taking HS pitching arm - Stetson Allie - but I didn't want him either. I understood the logic of the Wimmers pick but just didn't like it.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 02:48 PM
Well maybe if the made smarter moves we wouldn't have this garbage 90+ loss team to watch, hell everyone should hate everything the Twins do cause that's what has lead to this 100 million dollar mess.

To be fair you were hating on everything they were doing while they were winning 94 games..

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 02:49 PM
IIRC Gibson was considered a top 5 or top 10 talent who only fell due to injury concerns, if anything it was very un twins to take a risk on a high upside guy like that in the first round.

DPJ
07-17-2012, 02:54 PM
To be fair you were hating on everything they were doing while they were winning 94 games..

Cause it was coming Dave, I didnt think it would be this bad and this fast but I knew the down side on it's way. NTM playing in the AL Central covers alot of things.

The poors trades, the poor drafts, the poor signings. They were easy to gloss over when they team was in contention, but sooner of later it was all gonna hit the major league team and f*ck if it didn't hit them hard.

FrodaddyG
07-17-2012, 02:55 PM
To be fair you were hating on everything they were doing while they were winning 94 games..
But, to be fair, the stuff they were doing a couple years ago left them in the predicament they're in now.

gunnarthor
07-17-2012, 02:56 PM
IIRC Gibson was considered a top 5 or top 10 talent who only fell due to injury concerns, if anything it was very un twins to take a risk on a high upside guy like that in the first round.

Yep, he was a good pick. TJ surgery is unfortunate but I'm glad the Twins made a pick like that. (Just that Trout turned out to be some super insane talent).

birdwatcher
07-17-2012, 03:12 PM
You know, we're seeing the same convenient memories here from the same Twins bashers. DJP, the way-overused pitch to contact mantra and the same old soft tosser crap gets thrown out like the garbage it is. You appear to recall almost nothing from the scouting reports on Wimmers at the time he was drafted. What did his FB top out at during his collegiate career, DJP? Many scouts had him pegged as a 2-3 starter with an acceptable ability to miss bats. And Mike, help me out with how different the scouting reports were for Baker versus Wimmers. Why did Baker fall to the Twins instead of being scooped up later in the first round like Gibson and Wimmers?

nicksaviking
07-17-2012, 03:17 PM
Imagine how upset Twins fans would have been if the team had taken Trout over Gibson that year....

And, Wimmers was an easy pick at that time as well, deemed by many experts the starting pitcher closest to the big leagues.

Injuries happen.

Had the Twins let Santana walk and taken the comp picks instead of getting a grab bag from the Mets, they may have been able to have Gibson, Trout and Tyler Skaggs had Santana's Elias ranking in the AL remained higher than Francisco Rodriguez's and Mark Teixeiria's following the 2008 season. Those two players were what netted the Angel's those two high ceiling picks in 2009.

Everyone did agree Wimmers was the closest to the big leagues and before the draft, everyone also agreed that he was going to the Twins at pick 21. So at least 20 other teams agreed that taking upside is a better move than playing it safe, yet every scout, analyst and agent had the Twins pegged perfectly.

mike wants wins
07-17-2012, 03:18 PM
I did not pay attention to scouting reports when baker was in the minors. No idea.*

*edited for spelling...

birdwatcher
07-17-2012, 03:20 PM
Oh, and thrylos, Trout would be languishing in AA if he were a Twin? I call complete bulls*it on you there. A future all-star languishing in AA because that's how incompetent the Twins are. Just like they screwed up like that with Hrbek, Mauer, Puckett, Wynegar,.....oh, this list goes on and on and on, thrylos. You don't have evidence to support the ridiculous claim you make over and over and over, thrylos. It's just another of your tired, untrue characterizations.

DPJ
07-17-2012, 03:23 PM
Change-up was his best pitch followed by a decent curve (average) Plus command and a fringy at best fastball. Low ceiling but a very good chance of hitting it.

Unless he suddenly gained 5-6 mph on his fastball Wimmers never had a chance to be a 2 or even a 3. He was a backend guy who would get to the majors quickly. Nothing wrong with guys like that, but not what I wanted.

nicksaviking
07-17-2012, 03:27 PM
Wimmer's scouting report was great control with a good curve and change up and a fastball that touched 92. Everyone agreed that he would probably be on the fast track to the majors but his low velocity would not enable him to be an ace. I don't remember anybody being excited with the Wimmers pick.

Everyone knew it was coming, but most people were pleading to take someone with some velocity and upside, particularly because a year after drafting Gibson, BA and the other rankings gave us Twins fans a kick to the gut by saying Gibson was good but didn't have the strikeout potential to be an true ace.

Jeremy Nygaard
07-17-2012, 03:28 PM
I was high on Trout coming into the draft. The northeast had experienced a crazy-wet spring in 2009, so Trout hadn't been seen as much as he would have been in a normal year. I remember the Twins were high on Jio Mier. I liked Gibson, but figured he'd be out of the Twins reach. Jared Mitchell (a former Twins pick) was also projected to go around that time. As the draft progressed, I figured it would be one of those four - hoping for Gibson, hoping against Mier and would have been happy with either outfielder. When it was Gibson, I was ecstatic... the Twins added a top-flight arm to their system. I'd be lying if I said I'd go back and do it differently.

Wimmers in 2010 was not a well-kept secret. At the time, we believed he'd join the staff with Gibson... he was just like the good Kevin Slowey. Again, hard to be mad at that move.

FrodaddyG
07-17-2012, 03:29 PM
You know, we're seeing the same convenient memories here from the same Twins bashers. DJP, the way-overused pitch to contact mantra and the same old soft tosser crap gets thrown out like the garbage it is. You appear to recall almost nothing from the scouting reports on Wimmers at the time he was drafted. What did his FB top out at during his collegiate career, DJP?
Wimmers sat around 90, touching 92 on occasion.

The main selling point on him (especially during the BYTO discussions) was that he could be "like Mike Leake" and move quickly. Leake is pretty much the definition of a league average pitcher. While someone like that has value, much of the "low upside, but fast to the bigs" selling point is lost when, three years later, the guy has barely seen AA and is now shut down again with a mystery injury.

birdwatcher
07-17-2012, 03:35 PM
Well, DPJ, perhaps you disagreed with the scouts back then. Perhaps you'll be right. Wimmer's ceiling was generally described as 2-3 starter, and his FB was 91-93, and more that one scout described it as plenty good enough to miss bats. I cannot recall a single scouting report describing his ceiling as "back of the rotation". If it was, he would've been regarded as a second rounder, like Baker was. So, either that's your opinion, or you should back it up if it's a credible professinal opinion.


Which is it?

gunnarthor
07-17-2012, 03:36 PM
In fairness to Wimmers, some people did like him. Sickels at minorleagueball gave him a B+ rating in his first ranking, making him #2 Twins prospect and baseball america put him in their honorable mention his first eligible year.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/10/16/1755909/minnesota-twins-top-20-prospects-for-2011

DPJ
07-17-2012, 03:41 PM
Well, DPJ, perhaps you disagreed with the scouts back then. Perhaps you'll be right. Wimmer's ceiling was generally described as 2-3 starter, and his FB was 91-93, and more that one scout described it as plenty good enough to miss bats. I cannot recall a single scouting report describing his ceiling as "back of the rotation". If it was, he would've been regarded as a second rounder, like Baker was. So, either that's your opinion, or you should back it up if it's a credible professinal opinion.


Which is it?

So I'm suppose to show a scouting report that shows Wimmers had a backend ceiling while you provide no link that says otherwise. It pretty much birdwatcher says he's a 2 or 3 even though multiply here have said the same thing of Wimmers.

Is this Lev?

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 03:52 PM
But, to be fair, the stuff they were doing a couple years ago left them in the predicament they're in now.

Yeah, they def could use some better (young arms) however its kinda hard to blame them for Morneau's dizzyness and the other injuries the Twins have dealt with (Mauer, Gibson, Wimmers etc) its also extremely frustrating that guys like Guerra and Salcedo never panned out.

Smith was the one who put them in the current situation IMO by the Capps trade and a few other things.

DPJ
07-17-2012, 03:55 PM
Yeah, they def could use some better (young arms) however its kinda hard to blame them for Morneau's dizzyness and the other injuries the Twins have dealt with (Mauer, Gibson, Wimmers etc) its also extremely frustrating that guys like Guerra and Salcedo never panned out.

Smith was the one who put them in the current situation IMO by the Capps trade and a few other things.

Please explain how Smith is to blame for this?

mike wants wins
07-17-2012, 03:56 PM
No, Ryan was the GM when the drafts were done 4+ years ago, which is the track for college players, right? this is on both Ryan and Smith's time as GM, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy to blame this on Smith.

mike wants wins
07-17-2012, 04:10 PM
I won't copy the whole thing, but here are two sentences from the ESPN analysis of the Wimmers' pick.....

“There's some question whether he'll hold up as a starter, but I think average fastball/two plus pitches/control is a starter, until his performance proves otherwise. Wimmers is the closest thing to a Mike Leake this draft class has, although he's not the athlete that Leake is and hasn't pitched in a major baseball conference as Leake did.”

Law did say he thought he was the closest to the majors of any pitcher in that draft (well, him or Chris Sale).

Look, I get the pick, I just don’t see him as anywhere likely a #2. Name the number two pitchers (like, the 30-50th best pitchers in the league, maybe 20-35). Do we think it is LIKELY that Wimmers is (was) that? 20% likely? I just don’t think most pitchers reach that, especially not pitchers with an average or below average FB. His likely upside is a 3, with a more likely outcome a 4/5 if he's a starter someday. That’s mostly because that is the likely outcome for most pitching prospects that end up starters, not because he is a bad pitcher. Heck, most become relievers if they even make the majors.

I did not kill the pick at the time, but I also didn’t expect him to be a 2. I expected him to be up this year, as a 4/5, with him becoming a 3/4 over a year or two.

birdwatcher
07-17-2012, 04:16 PM
Again, DPJ, name us two pitchers in the Wimmers draft that hit 97 MPH with their fastball.

Just two.

Now, were they available to the Twins in the Wimmers draft? No? OK, then name me three pitchers who WERE available when the Twins drafted whose fastball sat at 95 MPH.

It's just not that easy.

DPJ
07-17-2012, 04:25 PM
Again, DPJ, name us two pitchers in the Wimmers draft that hit 97 MPH with their fastball.

Just two.

Now, were they available to the Twins in the Wimmers draft? No? OK, then name me three pitchers who WERE available when the Twins drafted whose fastball sat at 95 MPH.

It's just not that easy.

What the hell are you talking about?

This isn't about 97 mph, it's about taking a low-ceiling pitcher that early in the draft. He was never a #2 or 3, he was a backend guy that would move quickly through the minors. That was it, the injuries and yips sucks but never the less it's part of grading a pick and so far the Wimmers pick has been a massive failure.

FYI I was a big Tyrell Jenkins fan coming into the draft but what good does it do to rehash.

twinswon1991
07-17-2012, 04:33 PM
I won't copy the whole thing, but here are two sentences from the ESPN analysis of the Wimmers' pick.....

ďThere's some question whether he'll hold up as a starter, but I think average fastball/two plus pitches/control is a starter, until his performance proves otherwise. Wimmers is the closest thing to a Mike Leake this draft class has, although he's not the athlete that Leake is and hasn't pitched in a major baseball conference as Leake did.Ē

Law did say he thought he was the closest to the majors of any pitcher in that draft (well, him or Chris Sale).

Look, I get the pick, I just donít see him as anywhere likely a #2. Name the number two pitchers (like, the 30-50th best pitchers in the league, maybe 20-35). Do we think it is LIKELY that Wimmers is (was) that? 20% likely? I just donít think most pitchers reach that, especially not pitchers with an average or below average FB. His likely upside is a 3, with a more likely outcome a 4/5 if he's a starter someday. Thatís mostly because that is the likely outcome for most pitching prospects that end up starters, not because he is a bad pitcher. Heck, most become relievers if they even make the majors.

I did not kill the pick at the time, but I also didnít expect him to be a 2. I expected him to be up this year, as a 4/5, with him becoming a 3/4 over a year or two.

Great post. A few people posting above don't realize how good a #2 or #3 starter is. No way Wimmers had that sort of upside. A #2 starter is a Matt Cain type and a #3 is a Gio Gonzalez or Jon Lester type. The Twins had an ace in Santana but other than that they have had no #2 recently and maybe 1 season each from Baker and Frankie as #3's.

drjim
07-17-2012, 04:41 PM
Great post. A few people posting above don't realize how good a #2 or #3 starter is. No way Wimmers had that sort of upside. A #2 starter is a Matt Cain type and a #3 is a Gio Gonzalez or Jon Lester type. The Twins had an ace in Santana but other than that they have had no #2 recently and maybe 1 season each from Baker and Frankie as #3's.

Wow, Cain is a #2? High standards.

birdwatcher
07-17-2012, 04:43 PM
DPJ, YOU'RE the one who said Wimmers was destined to be a back-end guy unless he gained 5-6 MPH on his fastball. MOST, not some, but MOST analysts described his ceiling as higher. Two of those analysts have been mentioned in this thread. No analysts have been mentioned that supported your opinion that he was so obviously no better than a back-end guy. So, it's OK for you to have that opinion, but that doesn't support a conclusion that it was a bad pick. I was challenging you to come up with some alternative names- pitchers that throw "hard enough" to meet your standards that were available to the Twins. That's all.

Now , in retrospect? Sure. I agree with Mike Wants Wins. Wimmers is very unlikely to become a #2, and it's a reach to project him as a #3. But that's looking retrospectively.

twinswon1991
07-17-2012, 04:49 PM
Wow, Cain is a #2? High standards.


Most experts and scouts say there are 10-15 #1's in all of baseball.

Turn down the volume when you watch Dick and Bert because they'll try to convince you Pavano is an ace because he gets the ball on opening day and Hamels is a #3 cuz he starts game 3 of the season.

Brock Beauchamp
07-17-2012, 05:01 PM
Wow, Cain is a #2? High standards.

More like ridiculous standards. Cain is a 27 year old pitcher with a 125 ERA+. He has had two outstanding seasons and a few very good seasons.

Hes a #1.

DPJ
07-17-2012, 05:13 PM
DPJ, YOU'RE the one who said Wimmers was destined to be a back-end guy unless he gained 5-6 MPH on his fastball. MOST, not some, but MOST analysts described his ceiling as higher. Two of those analysts have been mentioned in this thread. No analysts have been mentioned that supported your opinion that he was so obviously no better than a back-end guy. So, it's OK for you to have that opinion, but that doesn't support a conclusion that it was a bad pick. I was challenging you to come up with some alternative names- pitchers that throw "hard enough" to meet your standards that were available to the Twins. That's all.


He's a backend guy, if you really want to nit pick between a 4-5 pitcher go right ahead. He wasn't a one, he was't a two and chances are he wasn't a 3. He was a guy that would get to the majors quickly and contribute. He never was gonna be a great pitcher, but a solid cost controlled arm that wouldn't kill everytime ala pre-Target Field Blackburn.

twinswon1991
07-17-2012, 05:16 PM
More like ridiculous standards. Cain is a 27 year old pitcher with a 125 ERA+. He has had two outstanding seasons and a few very good seasons.

Hes a #1.

He is a good pitcher having a great year. If he were doing this for the Twins Dick n Bert would have him enshrined in the Twins HOF with Diamond after this year.

He is a strong #2 with the Hamels, Gallardo, Beckett, Haren, Wilson, and Bumgardners of the world.

Pius Jefferson
07-17-2012, 05:31 PM
Most experts and scouts say there are 10-15 #1's in all of baseball.

Turn down the volume when you watch Dick and Bert because they'll try to convince you Pavano is an ace because he gets the ball on opening day and Hamels is a #3 cuz he starts game 3 of the season.


Do you have a list of these 10-15 #1 starters in baseball that don't include Matt Cain?

drjim
07-17-2012, 05:31 PM
He is a good pitcher having a great year. If he were doing this for the Twins Dick n Bert would have him enshrined in the Twins HOF eith Diamond after this year.

He is a strong #2 with the Hamels, Gallardo, Beckett, Haren, Wilson, and Bumgardners of the world.

I don't see what this has to do with Dick and Bert. Dude has gone 217, 217, 223, 221 IP the past 4 years with good eras, solid k rate and numbers that are getting better this year as he is entering his prime. He is a top 5 pitcher in baseball, the favorite to win the NL Cy Young. How is that not an ace?

I generally agree on the others, mostly because the rest of them have had injury concerns and Bumgarner is still a little young.

twinswon1991
07-17-2012, 05:46 PM
Do you have a list of these 10-15 #1 starters in baseball that don't include Matt Cain?

Here are guys off the top of my head (I'm sure I'll forget someone obvious) who I would rather have than Cain starting the Twins 1 game WC playoff game in 2012: Kershaw, Lee, Halladay, Price, CC, Felix, Verlander, Strausburg, Grienke, Weaver. If I had more time to look at the stats I probably could come up with several more but then comes the next group of 10-30 pitchers that would definitely include Cain. If I had one of the Aces start the Twins WC game I would love to have Cain start game 1 of the ALCS.

I would also vote Cain #2 for the CY this year behind RA and he may end up #1 in the end. I don't feel that the last 3 months has made him go from a strong #2 to an ace. I might chance my mind if he keeps this up the rest of the way. It is crazy how he has been able to outperform his peripherals year in and year out but the NL West lineups and the ballpark are HUGE bonuses for him.

Thrylos
07-17-2012, 05:48 PM
Wimmers in 2010 was not a well-kept secret. At the time, we believed he'd join the staff with Gibson... he was just like the good Kevin Slowey. .

Not. Even. Close. The "good Kevin Slowey" was average Greg Maddux-like. One of the biggest wastes (for misdiagnosed and mistreated injury reasons, which created a lot of friction with GardyNAndy) in the recent Twins' history

edavis0308
07-17-2012, 05:50 PM
DPJ, YOU'RE the one who said Wimmers was destined to be a back-end guy unless he gained 5-6 MPH on his fastball. MOST, not some, but MOST analysts described his ceiling as higher. Two of those analysts have been mentioned in this thread. No analysts have been mentioned that supported your opinion that he was so obviously no better than a back-end guy. So, it's OK for you to have that opinion, but that doesn't support a conclusion that it was a bad pick. I was challenging you to come up with some alternative names- pitchers that throw "hard enough" to meet your standards that were available to the Twins. That's all.

Now , in retrospect? Sure. I agree with Mike Wants Wins. Wimmers is very unlikely to become a #2, and it's a reach to project him as a #3. But that's looking retrospectively.

Sweet Jesus can some of you learn how to use Reply with Quote?

twinswon1991
07-17-2012, 05:51 PM
Not. Even. Close. The "good Kevin Slowey" was average Greg Maddux-like. One of the biggest wastes (for misdiagnosed and mistreated injury reasons, which created a lot of friction with GardyNAndy) in the recent Twins' history

Gardy/Andy and the medical staff also killed Baker's chances of being a really good MLB pitcher. I would've loved to see what they could've done in another organization.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 05:55 PM
Gardy/Andy and the medical staff also killed Baker's chances of being a really good MLB pitcher. I would've loved to see what they could've done in another organization.

This might take the cake for worst post of the year.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 05:57 PM
Not. Even. Close. The "good Kevin Slowey" was average Greg Maddux-like. One of the biggest wastes (for misdiagnosed and mistreated injury reasons, which created a lot of friction with GardyNAndy) in the recent Twins' history

Kevin Slowey = Greg Maddux.

Got it. I forgot the time Maddux was 28 years old, traded/released by 2 different teams and posting a 5.14 in AAA.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 06:00 PM
More like ridiculous standards. Cain is a 27 year old pitcher with a 125 ERA+. He has had two outstanding seasons and a few very good seasons.

Hes a #1.

Past 4 years, 131 ERA+ Averaging 230 IP a year, 1.090 WHIP. That is definitely a #1.

Also it is possible for a team to posses two number 1s, the Giants are a good example if Lincecum starts coming back to form.

Trying to put a cap on "There can only be 15 #1's in baseball" seems futile.

twinswon1991
07-17-2012, 06:05 PM
This might take the cake for worst post of the year.



I am waiting for your rebuttal when you defend Gardy/Andy's track record in helping pitchers improve and your defense of the Twins medical staff. This should be good!

Brock Beauchamp
07-17-2012, 06:14 PM
Trying to put a cap on "There can only be 15 #1's in baseball" seems futile.

Particularly when we're in the middle of a pitching revival in baseball. The "old rules" no longer apply, especially bad ones.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 06:34 PM
I am waiting for your rebuttal when you defend Gardy/Andy's track record in helping pitchers improve and your defense of the Twins medical staff. This should be good!

How about you point out all the pitchers who vastly improved when they left the Twins?

Pitchers get hurt, we have had a bad run of it over the past few years, they should examine the training staff and possibly make some changes, but it should be noted that the Royals have had 6 players end up getting Tommy John surgery this year, pitchers getting hurt is hardly a phenomenon that only effects the Twins.

fetch
07-17-2012, 06:43 PM
2010 Liriano was a #3? that's even higher standards than Matt Cain as a 2

Mchans24
07-17-2012, 06:44 PM
I know this is a lot of ifs and buts but........ If Baker, Wimmers and Gibson don't get hurt our pitching depth looks pretty damn good!! Injuries happen......nothing we can do but rebuild and hope they get healthy. Twins have had a two year run of horrible luck piled on top of three years with Bill Smith as GM. Terry Ryan has us moving in the right direction although it is always slower than we would like.

twinswon1991
07-17-2012, 06:51 PM
How about you point out all the pitchers who vastly improved when they left the Twins?

Pitchers get hurt, we have had a bad run of it over the past few years, they should examine the training staff and possibly make some changes, but it should be noted that the Royals have had 6 players end up getting Tommy John surgery this year, pitchers getting hurt is hardly a phenomenon that only effects the Twins.

Dicky, Lohse, Humber and Marquis are 4 starters who have improved greatly after getting out from under Gardy/Andy. The fact that you couldn't come up with 1 name of a guy they have helped is telling in itself. I will give them credit for Diamond eventhough he made his adjustments at AAA after being sent down.

I see your great medical staff strikes again! Capps to DL and now no trade value. How many times has the putrid medical staff rushed someone back or misdiagnosed an injury in recent years? The ex-Twins should file a class action lawsuit.

DPJ
07-17-2012, 07:01 PM
I see your great medical staff strikes again! Capps to DL and now no trade value. How many times has the putrid medical staff rushed someone back or misdiagnosed an injury in recent years? The ex-Twins should file a class action lawsuit.

It's a pointless battle, Dave cannot and will not blame the Twins for anything. Bad trades, bad signings, bad coaching....doesn't matter.

edavis0308
07-17-2012, 07:04 PM
I know this is a lot of ifs and buts but........ If Baker, Wimmers and Gibson don't get hurt our pitching depth looks pretty damn good!! Injuries happen......nothing we can do but rebuild and hope they get healthy. Twins have had a two year run of horrible luck piled on top of three years with Bill Smith as GM. Terry Ryan has us moving in the right direction although it is always slower than we would like.I would argue the depth still sucks, we would just be in a bit less of a very very dark and deep hole.

twinswon1991
07-17-2012, 07:05 PM
It's a pointless battle, Dave cannot and will not blame the Twins for anything. Bad trades, bad signings, bad coaching....doesn't matter.

I think I finally realize that. Seeing his posts you would think the Twins had won a playoff game in the last 5 years, were in 1st place this year and had the best farm system in MLB.

Brock Beauchamp
07-17-2012, 07:12 PM
Dicky, Lohse, Humber and Marquis are 4 starters who have improved greatly after getting out from under Gardy/Andy. The fact that you couldn't come up with 1 name of a guy they have helped is telling in itself. I will give them credit for Diamond eventhough he made his adjustments at AAA after being sent down.

I LOVE this argument.

Lohse is the same pitcher away from the Twins that he was with the team. Don't believe me? Check the stats. League average before, league average afterward.

Gardy and Andy never "got" Humber. He pitched 20 innings in Minnesota. Blame the front office for that one. They bailed on him for no good reason.

RA Dickey is an aberration. Three teams before the Twins passed on him.

Marquis? Really? That's an example you're going to use? He's 1-3 with a 4.75 ERA in the past month.

Brock Beauchamp
07-17-2012, 07:18 PM
On the other hand, there is a quite lengthy list of pitchers who fell on their faces away from the Twins. But I'm sure you don't care about that, seeing how it defies your perceived reality.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 07:45 PM
Dicky, Lohse, Humber and Marquis are 4 starters who have improved greatly after getting out from under Gardy/Andy. The fact that you couldn't come up with 1 name of a guy they have helped is telling in itself. I will give them credit for Diamond eventhough he made his adjustments at AAA after being sent down.

I see your great medical staff strikes again! Capps to DL and now no trade value. How many times has the putrid medical staff rushed someone back or misdiagnosed an injury in recent years? The ex-Twins should file a class action lawsuit.

Dickey- Is a rare case, nobody saw his success coming, also I'm not going to fault Andy for not knowing how to teach the knuckle ball.
Loshe- Basically the same dude, he has had a nice season or two but its because he is in the NL.
Humber- Are we talking about the Phil Humber that has a 6.01 ERA this year?
Marquis- He is a 5th starter in the NL, like many predicted he pitched poorly in the AL, seriously your reaching if you try to blame this on him.

Success stories:
Santana
Silva for a few years
Liriano
Milton
Romero
Rincon
Nathan
Diamond
Pavano?

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 07:48 PM
It's a pointless battle, Dave cannot and will not blame the Twins for anything. Bad trades, bad signings, bad coaching....doesn't matter.I blame them for bad trades and bad signings all along. I thought Smith was an awful GM and repeated that at least 100x before he resigned.

I didn't think the Marquis and Capps signings this year were the end of the world, though it would have been nice to get a pick for Capps. I wish they would have went with someone with a higher upside then Marquis, but at the end of the day he was a 1 year/3 mil contract. Also giving Zumaya any money guaranteed seemed and proved to be foolish.


Anyways you and Twinswon1991 should hang out, he can throw out his "Mauer was on roids" comments and you can go on and on about how Cuddyer was the worst Twin in the history of baseball.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-17-2012, 07:50 PM
I would argue the depth still sucks, we would just be in a bit less of a very very dark and deep hole.

FWIW: Pavano has also had injury issues which he had avoided during his stint with the Twins.

If everyone was healthy a rotation of Baker, Liriano, Diamond, Gibson, Wimmers/Pavano/whoever wouldn't look half bad. Hopefully the Twins learn from this and get follow the old saying that you can never have enough pitching!

DPJ
07-17-2012, 07:58 PM
FWIW: Pavano has also had injury issues which he had avoided during his stint with the Twins.

If everyone was healthy a rotation of Baker, Liriano, Diamond, Gibson, Wimmers/Pavano/whoever wouldn't look half bad. Hopefully the Twins learn from this and get follow the old saying that you can never have enough pitching!

Well they didn't learn it last season and went into this season with the same tiny depth.

edavis0308
07-17-2012, 08:12 PM
FWIW: Pavano has also had injury issues which he had avoided during his stint with the Twins.

If everyone was healthy a rotation of Baker, Liriano, Diamond, Gibson, Wimmers/Pavano/whoever wouldn't look half bad. Hopefully the Twins learn from this and get follow the old saying that you can never have enough pitching!

Well that quality depth we have has been good enough to sport the worst ERA in baseball. Quality!

Badsmerf
07-17-2012, 08:16 PM
Well they didn't learn it last season and went into this season with the same tiny depth.
I hope the front office has been humbled into being forced to change their views on some things. If they haven't, its going to be rough being a Twins fan for awhile.

Seth Stohs
07-17-2012, 08:57 PM
Name the number two pitchers (like, the 30-50th best pitchers in the league, maybe 20-35). Do we think it is LIKELY that Wimmers is (was) that? 20% likely? I just don’t think most pitchers reach that,

This is a great point. I don't think a lot of people realize how few pitchers turn into #2s much less #1s. It's like some in here expect the Twins to get a 1 or 2 with every pick. Gibson and Wimmers were good picks. We can play the hindsight game as much as people want... means nothing. What good is that discussion?

Seth Stohs
07-17-2012, 09:00 PM
Gardy and Andy never "got" Humber. He pitched 20 innings in Minnesota. Blame the front office for that one. They bailed on him for no good reason.


fHe was also horrible at AAA as well. Getting rid of Humber was fine.

nicksaviking
07-17-2012, 09:10 PM
This is a great point. I don't think a lot of people realize how few pitchers turn into #2s much less #1s. It's like some in here expect the Twins to get a 1 or 2 with every pick. Gibson and Wimmers were good picks. We can play the hindsight game as much as people want... means nothing. What good is that discussion?

Playing the hindsight game may sound like whining, but those that don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. The fact is under Terry Ryan's leadersip the Twins have never drafted a starter who has made an All Star game. Like it or not there are compelling reasons to believe Ryan is not willing to learn from his mistakes.

clutterheart
07-17-2012, 09:28 PM
How did a thread about prospects turn into a blame game and bitch fest on Wimmers? Playing "he sucks" card for an injured guy is just stupid. If you want to criticize use Madison Boer as an example, Yikes! He is stinking.

To the subject at hand:
Assuming Rosario bounces back from his injury, I fully expect him to be on this list next year. I think he will be a better overall player than Sano
What more does Arcia have to do to get on this list? (besides hit LHP and not strike out so much)
Kepler is hitting over .300 has an OPS almost .900 and he is just 19 years old. He could be on this list in a few years too.

Whatever you haters think, there are somethings to be seriously excited about in the low low low minors.

COtwin
07-17-2012, 09:29 PM
I have to disagree with you on a couple of these. Marquis is just picking up were he left off. National league is the only place he can pitch. Lohse would be very helpful to our rotation, but who knows what his 2.80 and 1.10 whip look like in the AL. Call him a miss though. Humber had on game otherwise none of us would be talking about him. We already have enough ERAs over 5. Dickey, who knows. I don't think anyone saw this coming. Has to be Kilimanjaro related.

COtwin
07-17-2012, 09:33 PM
This is a great point. I don't think a lot of people realize how few pitchers turn into #2s much less #1s. It's like some in here expect the Twins to get a 1 or 2 with every pick. Gibson and Wimmers were good picks. We can play the hindsight game as much as people want... means nothing. What good is that discussion?



Great point. We used to be so blessed. We had a stable of #3 guys with upside like garza and baker we had an up and coming frankie and we had one of the 10 or so number #1s in Johan. Crazy how fast it can all just go away.

Brock Beauchamp
07-17-2012, 09:38 PM
fHe was also horrible at AAA as well. Getting rid of Humber was fine.

They didn't have a wealth of pitching at the time. I didn't like the move then and I still don't like it now even though Humber has been ineffective this season.

This organization hasn't really been in the position to throw away pitchers over the past 5-6 years.

COtwin
07-17-2012, 09:57 PM
I love bitching about Gardy but Robertson just made him look good. Although all the numbers said it was the move to make.

Jeremy Nygaard
07-17-2012, 10:07 PM
He was also horrible at AAA as well. Getting rid of Humber was fine.

Humber cleared waivers TWICE in 2009 before leaving as a MiLB FA. Not exactly a hot commodity.