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Thrylos
07-13-2012, 04:34 PM
The reference is here (https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/223856138372915200).

He suggests that Capps and Liriano are fits. Whatever. The fact is that the Twins are scouting a particular Toronto affiliate.
What severely bugs me, is that the Twins are scouting the Midwest League (A) Lansing Lugnuts. They need to have MLB-ready starting pitching ASAP as a return to any trade, and they are scouting single A. Nuts.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-13-2012, 04:36 PM
They need to have MLB-ready starting pitching ASAP as a return to any trade

No they don't...

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-13-2012, 04:42 PM
From looking at the current Lansing Roster here are some guys that pop out at me:

Justin Nicolino SP
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=nicoli001jus
Noah Seth Syndergaard SP
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=synder001noa
(http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=synder001noa)
Andy Byrnes (SS/2B/3B)

I'd take any of them straight up for Capps

Badsmerf
07-13-2012, 04:45 PM
They need to have MLB-ready starting pitching ASAP as a return to any trade, and they are scouting single A. Nuts.
Why would you say that? The closer to the MLB a prospect is the more valuable they are to that team. If you want a prospect with a high upside more than likely you'll have to reach further down into the minors. This isn't always true for Cliff Lee type deals, but when trading a player like Liriano... Besides, I'd rather have higher upside arms for when Sano, Rosario, Hicks, Arcia etc. are playing. I can wait 2 years for a prospect the Twins trade Liriano for.

Thrylos
07-13-2012, 04:51 PM
Why would you say that? The closer to the MLB a prospect is the more valuable they are to that team. If you want a prospect with a high upside more than likely you'll have to reach further down into the minors. This isn't always true for Cliff Lee type deals, but when trading a player like Liriano... Besides, I'd rather have higher upside arms for when Sano, Rosario, Hicks, Arcia etc. are playing. I can wait 2 years for a prospect the Twins trade Liriano for.

The problem is that their 2013 rotation looks like nothing. Unless someone thinks that parts of a season from Diamond and De Vries are who they really are, the hope that Hendriks develops quickly, Walters can fool hitters with his non-stuff, Blackburn can magically become an effective pitcher and Gibson will have a miraculous comeback. The 2013 rotation on paper looks worse than the 2012 rotation that is the worst in the majors.

This is why.

Now, if they want to blow the whole thing up for 2013 and 2014 and wait for 2015, is a different story. And totally acceptable, but if that is the direction, they should not have extended a 30-some DH/C, and they should start selling anyone who is older that 28 and/or is making more than the minimum. Either or. Half rear-end things do not make sense, but they appear to be "the Twins' way".

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-13-2012, 04:52 PM
Yeah, the idea that we would get a major league ready arm for Liriano is a bit perplexing, if a team had a major league ready arm I imagine they would rather just roll with that instead of the enigmatic Liriano.

gunnarthor
07-13-2012, 04:54 PM
Capps and Liriano aren't likely to bring in a top 100 prospect (unless the market changes) so it makes sense for the Twins do look for some high upside guys in A ball. That's how Liriano got added to the AJ deal in the first place.

Badsmerf
07-13-2012, 04:58 PM
By trading Liriano they are not "blowing the thing up." They are trying to get talent back since they obviously don't think he's worth the 13 mil he has an option for next year. I think its clear they are going to need to add at least 1 SP in free agency over the winter. You have to remember that Baker and Gibson are real possibilities for next year. Gibson is already pitching in the GCL and I imagine Baker (if the Twins can figure out his contract) could be ready to join the Twins early next season. If these two hadn't gotten hurt.... this team might be in the thick of things for the AL Central.

Brock Beauchamp
07-13-2012, 04:58 PM
Capps and Liriano aren't likely to bring in a top 100 prospect (unless the market changes) so it makes sense for the Twins do look for some high upside guys in A ball. That's how Liriano got added to the AJ deal in the first place.

Capps, definitely not. Liriano, well it depends a lot on what happens in Milwaukee over the next week and a half.

PMKI
07-13-2012, 04:59 PM
I'd take any of them straight up for Capps


Could we really get one of those guys for Capps?

Badsmerf
07-13-2012, 04:59 PM
Capps and Liriano aren't likely to bring in a top 100 prospect (unless the market changes) so it makes sense for the Twins do look for some high upside guys in A ball. That's how Liriano got added to the AJ deal in the first place.

Why not? The Jays need a high upside starter to try and make the playoffs this year. A single top 100 player isn't much to give up for that.

stringer bell
07-13-2012, 05:14 PM
Two things, Liriano is a free agent. The Twins will have no control over Liriano. They can make a qualifying offer, which would guarantee them a draft pick, but they also would be on the hook for a $12M salary, which I think is too much for the enigmatic Frankie. It makes zero sense to count on Baker for anything in 2013. Traditionally the year after TJ is ineffective and inconsistent (Joe Nathan last year, Liriano in 2008). Gibson is going to be at this point this summer and fall and we should expect him in top form in the spring of '13. Baker has an expensive option that should not be picked up. If the Twins want him for 2014 and beyond, they will have to offer him a multi-year deal in his TJ recovery year.

Thrylos
07-13-2012, 05:15 PM
MLB-ready does not necessarily mean "top 100" prospect. Someone like Brett Cecil, who might not be in the top 100, would probably work. Someone like John Stilson who is probably another year or so away, might also work. And not for Capps alone, but for Liriano, for Span, for Morneau or a combination... Capps alone will not bring much, esp. now that the manager decided that he will not close for a while...

Pius Jefferson
07-13-2012, 05:23 PM
The Twins appear to be approaching things differently, but the two pitchers in Lansing that seem like Twin pitchers are Nicolino and Sanchez. Neither throws very hard, but they been productive and they do strike hitters out.

kab21
07-13-2012, 06:53 PM
Syndergaard or Nicolino for Liriano
Corcino for Span
another nice piece for Willingham and I'm liking the Twins farm system

gunnarthor
07-13-2012, 06:57 PM
Why not? The Jays need a high upside starter to try and make the playoffs this year. A single top 100 player isn't much to give up for that.

Well, I guess that depends on whether the Jays view Liriano as a "high upside" starter. Here's hoping.

glunn
07-13-2012, 06:59 PM
Syndergaard or Nicolino for Liriano
Corcino for Span
another nice piece for Willingham and I'm liking the Twins farm system

With those guys gone, the rest of 2012 is likely to be filled with a lot more losses. I hope that the Twins hold out for more than this.

USAFChief
07-13-2012, 07:09 PM
What happened to TINSTAAPP?

I would hope the Twins, if they're going to trade assets, are looking at position players if they're going to dip down into low A ball.

kab21
07-13-2012, 07:24 PM
What happened to TINSTAAPP?

I would hope the Twins, if they're going to trade assets, are looking at position players if they're going to dip down into low A ball.

You kind of understand it but not really. What the Twins need to do is acquire a quantity of good pitching prospects. Some will bust and some will make it.

I forgot to add this before but I'm against trading the best assets for mediocre rotation filler (Cecil) just because he is MLB ready.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-13-2012, 07:24 PM
What happened to TINSTAAPP?

I would hope the Twins, if they're going to trade assets, are looking at position players if they're going to dip down into low A ball.
Why?

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-13-2012, 07:26 PM
I forgot to add this before but I'm against trading the best assets for mediocre rotation filler (Cecil) just because he is MLB ready.

I agree, I wouldn't give up anyone of great value for Cecil, but I would give up Capps for him in a heartbeat. I actually think Cecil can end up being a decent #4 or a poor mans #3. Getting out of the AL East should help him quite a bit, I could see him as a 180 IP, 4.00 ERA guy for a few years.

USAFChief
07-13-2012, 07:28 PM
You kind of understand it but not really. What the Twins need to do is acquire a quantity of good pitching prospects. Some will bust and some will make it.

I forgot to add this before but I'm against trading the best assets for mediocre rotation filler (Cecil) just because he is MLB ready.

So adding 1 or 2 more pitchers currently in the MWL = adding "a quantity of good pitching prospects?"

If teams aren't willing to thow pitchers at the Twins who can help by mid-2013 at the latest, tell 'em to take a hike.

Thrylos
07-13-2012, 07:29 PM
If teams aren't willing to thow pitchers at the Twins who can help by mid-2013 at the latest, tell 'em to take a hike.

Darn... I agree 100% with that statement.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-13-2012, 07:34 PM
So adding 1 or 2 more pitchers currently in the MWL = adding "a quantity of good pitching prospects?"

If teams aren't willing to thow pitchers at the Twins who can help by mid-2013 at the latest, tell 'em to take a hike.

Your right, we'd be much better off hanging onto Capps the rest of the year and then having to buy out his option next year.
Ditto with Liriano (assuming the Twins aren't serious about extending him)

birdwatcher
07-13-2012, 07:36 PM
Whether it's pitching or position players, and regardless of our trading chip, I absolutely love the idea of obtaining higher-ceiling prospects from the lower levels as opposed to a Brett Cecil type. If you want a MLB-ready pitcher, just keep Liriano for another year for $12M. You're either getting yourself a bargain, or you're overpaying him by about the cost of a Marquis.

Brock Beauchamp
07-13-2012, 07:41 PM
If teams aren't willing to thow pitchers at the Twins who can help by mid-2013 at the latest, tell 'em to take a hike.

I'm fine with trading Liriano for a low minors prospect. You'll get better value out of Liriano that way, who is a two month rental for the receiving team.

Span, on the other hand, needs to be dealt for someone much closer to the bigs.

kab21
07-13-2012, 07:43 PM
So adding 1 or 2 more pitchers currently in the MWL = adding "a quantity of good pitching prospects?"



There is not one move that is going to add quantity of good pitching prospects but you have to start somewhere. They drafted Berrios, signed Felix Jorge (under the radar) last year, drafted Boyd last year and if they can add a 2-3 guys like syndergaard/nicolino/corcino/Meyer(WAS) then you start to have the kind of numbers where you start adding some legitimately good pitchers to the rotation instead of the constant stream of 4/5's that have been coming up recently.

Thrylos
07-13-2012, 08:04 PM
There is not one move that is going to add quantity of good pitching prospects but you have to start somewhere. They drafted Berrios, signed Felix Jorge (under the radar) last year, drafted Boyd last year and if they can add a 2-3 guys like syndergaard/nicolino/corcino/Meyer(WAS) then you start to have the kind of numbers where you start adding some legitimately good pitchers to the rotation instead of the constant stream of 4/5's that have been coming up recently.


My point is that this is fine and dandy if you are looking at 2015 or so. And I have no problem with that.

If that is what they are doing, why the hey are they extending Doumit (who will not be around by then, and I would think that Herrmann might fill his shoes pretty well in a rebuild) and not have a fire sale? This half-rear-end crap just gets me...

kab21
07-13-2012, 08:15 PM
signing Doumit is fine even if you are rebuilding. Rebuilding doesn't have to be a burn it to the ground style. They signed Doumit to a cheap contract for minimal years and he doesn't block anyone. If Parmelee or Herrmann are good enough to play they will find a spot.

I'm concerned that they are going to do a rebuilding where they trade for a bunch of mediocre low upside guys that are close to the majors.

Thrylos
07-13-2012, 09:01 PM
I'm concerned that they are going to do a rebuilding where they trade for a bunch of mediocre low upside guys that are close to the majors.

Like Diamond last season?

Again: this is schizophrenic behavior. You got to have a plan for when you are going to compete (where "compete" = "winning a couple of postseason series here and there, reaching the world series occasionally and winning maybe".) The Twins have not done that since Andy MacPhail was the GM. And he was 38 years old when the Twins won the World Series for the last time (and their Manager was 41). Not sure that the Twins have such a plan. And that is a big problem. And this is a reason why they have been fluttering around mediocrity for 20 seasons. Some better than others, but still the same old crap. Something's gotta change with this team that does not involve the color of the uniforms or that of the "Twins' way" Kool-aid

Badsmerf
07-13-2012, 09:21 PM
Like Diamond last season?

Again: this is schizophrenic behavior. You got to have a plan for when you are going to compete (where "compete" = "winning a couple of postseason series here and there, reaching the world series occasionally and winning maybe".) The Twins have not done that since Andy MacPhail was the GM. And he was 38 years old when the Twins won the World Series for the last time (and their Manager was 41). Not sure that the Twins have such a plan. And that is a big problem. And this is a reason why they have been fluttering around mediocrity for 20 seasons. Some better than others, but still the same old crap. Something's gotta change with this team that does not involve the color of the uniforms or that of the "Twins' way" Kool-aid
You have to add talent into the system. This is kab's point. The Twins need to inject talent into the minors pitching staffs because there currently is none. The only 2 pitchers in the top 10 in the entire system just had TJ surgery... not good. It doesn't matter when this team is going to "compete", making good trades is a part of baseball. If Liriano stays with the Twins it will be because they offered him a long-term deal (10+ per year) or he is getting 13 mil. The Twins can invest that money in another FA, it doesn't just disappear.

Thrylos
07-13-2012, 09:29 PM
You have to add talent into the system. This is kab's point. The Twins need to inject talent into the minors pitching staffs because there currently is none. The only 2 pitchers in the top 10 in the entire system just had TJ surgery... not good. It doesn't matter when this team is going to "compete", making good trades is a part of baseball. If Liriano stays with the Twins it will be because they offered him a long-term deal (10+ per year) or he is getting 13 mil. The Twins can invest that money in another FA, it doesn't just disappear.

OK. The last Liriano quality free agent pitcher the Twins' invested money on was Jack Morris. The rest were the likes of Livan, Ponson, Marquis and the such. Not a good history there. Feel free to add the re-singing of overpaid Pavano to the list. So I don't really think that this Front Office can do it.

I might be a minority here, but I think that the system has a whole lot of good pitchers who are like 2-3 years away at the A-Rk level. The system's problem is MLB-ready starters who are 0-2 years away. This is why it does not make sense to add more 2-3 year away players....

And I don't really care about prospect lists in this context... they are all about potential

Erock
07-13-2012, 09:40 PM
The Twins will pay for starters next year. Pavano, Liriano, and Baker are all off the books. Blackburn is the only actual cost they have left. They will get one REAL starter at least like a Colby Lewis or Edwin Jackson.

Thrylos
07-13-2012, 09:49 PM
The Twins will pay for starters next year. Pavano, Liriano, and Baker are all off the books. Blackburn is the only actual cost they have left. They will get one REAL starter at least like a Colby Lewis or Edwin Jackson.

a. I bet you they don't
b. do you think that it will take more than 1 yr $12.5 M to sign either of them?
c. do you think that they are better than Liriano?

Another food for thought: When the pitching sucks so badly for a few years in a row, you gotta think about getting rid of the coach instead of the pitchers maybe... just a thought.

gunnarthor
07-13-2012, 09:54 PM
Like Diamond last season?

Again: this is schizophrenic behavior. You got to have a plan for when you are going to compete (where "compete" = "winning a couple of postseason series here and there, reaching the world series occasionally and winning maybe".) The Twins have not done that since Andy MacPhail was the GM. And he was 38 years old when the Twins won the World Series for the last time (and their Manager was 41). Not sure that the Twins have such a plan. And that is a big problem. And this is a reason why they have been fluttering around mediocrity for 20 seasons. Some better than others, but still the same old crap. Something's gotta change with this team that does not involve the color of the uniforms or that of the "Twins' way" Kool-aid

Yep, TR et al don't have a plan at all. Just been shooting from the hip all these years. :rolleyes:

Jim H
07-13-2012, 09:56 PM
Some people treat 1987 and 1991 as special magical years, where the the GM went all in and everything went according to some great plan. Neither year was like that. The 87 team was flawed with 2 starting pitchers and a decent closer and set up man. The line up was strong in the middle (3-6) and weak at the top and the bottom. They spent all year trying to fill out the rotation and ended up with Les Steckel as the #3 guy. Even their signature late season move, trading for Don Baylor didn't really help much. They were a mediocre team who lucked into the postseason and got hot once they got there. They are the poster team for getting to the post season anyway you can and then getting hot and lucky.

As far as current planning goes, getting superior talent is the key. I believe if you make trades at the deadline, you go for the best talent you can get. Chances are the best talent available for what the Twins will be willing to trade, will be a ways from the majors. It will be difficult to build a rotation for next year, but the Twins will have some money available and may even go after some of the top free agent pitchers. So, if the Twins decide to trade Liriano, get the best guy or guys you can. If they are a ways away from the majors, thats ok.

gunnarthor
07-13-2012, 10:03 PM
Some people treat 1987 and 1991 as special magical years, where the the GM went all in and everything went according to some great plan. Neither year was like that. The 87 team was flawed with 2 starting pitchers and a decent closer and set up man. The line up was strong in the middle (3-6) and weak at the top and the bottom. They spent all year trying to fill out the rotation and ended up with Les Steckel as the #3 guy. Even their signature late season move, trading for Don Baylor didn't really help much. They were a mediocre team who lucked into the postseason and got hot once they got there. They are the poster team for getting to the post season anyway you can and then getting hot and lucky.

As far as current planning goes, getting superior talent is the key. I believe if you make trades at the deadline, you go for the best talent you can get. Chances are the best talent available for what the Twins will be willing to trade, will be a ways from the majors. It will be difficult to build a rotation for next year, but the Twins will have some money available and may even go after some of the top free agent pitchers. So, if the Twins decide to trade Liriano, get the best guy or guys you can. If they are a ways away from the majors, thats ok.

Get out of here with your facts and logic. People are ranting here. :)

Dilligaf69
07-13-2012, 10:11 PM
Get out of here with your facts and logic. People are ranting here. :)


The '91' team was good all yr!

ashburyjohn
07-13-2012, 10:28 PM
and ended up with Les Steckel as the #3 guy.

Amusing mis-type there. That of course should be Straker, as Steckel was the gung-ho (and then some) Vikings coach of 1984.

Clyde
07-13-2012, 11:24 PM
And this is a reason why they have been fluttering around mediocrity for 20 seasons.

What were you watching for the last 20 years. The Twins would have been thrilled to medocre 1993-2001, Then how many years in a row were they near the top of the division? The lousiest of the best. But winning the division

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-13-2012, 11:57 PM
signing Doumit is fine even if you are rebuilding. Rebuilding doesn't have to be a burn it to the ground style. They signed Doumit to a cheap contract for minimal years and he doesn't block anyone. If Parmelee or Herrmann are good enough to play they will find a spot.

I'm concerned that they are going to do a rebuilding where they trade for a bunch of mediocre low upside guys that are close to the majors.
If anything the Doumit signing could pay off well after his next contract is up, assuming it keeps Mauer at DH/1B an additional 40-50 times a year that could be huge for Joe years down the road.

I'm with you 100% kab, you gotta take the high upside talent where you can, especially when it comes to pitching. Gibson/Diamond/Hendriks/Free Agent A/Free Agent B/Walters/Blackburn/Liriano? etc should be able to give you some hope to compete next season in the central.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-14-2012, 12:01 AM
What were you watching for the last 20 years. The Twins would have been thrilled to medocre 1993-2001, Then how many years in a row were they near the top of the division? The lousiest of the best. But winning the division

I'd argure (and many prob would to) that in 2006 the Twins were one of the favorites to win the world series, even the other times they made the playoffs they looked like they had a chance to compete for the most part.

The one exception being the year they beat Detroit in game 163, they were screwed having to play the Yankees 18 hours later.

6 division titles in 9 seasons (5 of which were 90+ wins, 3 of which were 94+ wins) is hardly "mediocre" in my book. Also one of those years they didn't make it in that span they were tied after 162 games and were a Jim Thome bomb away from making it 7 division wins in 9 years.

Riverbrian
07-14-2012, 12:15 AM
The reference is here (https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/223856138372915200).

He suggests that Capps and Liriano are fits. Whatever. The fact is that the Twins are scouting a particular Toronto affiliate.
What severely bugs me, is that the Twins are scouting the Midwest League (A) Lansing Lugnuts. They need to have MLB-ready starting pitching ASAP as a return to any trade, and they are scouting single A. Nuts.

They have two scouts in Lansing. That excites me a little. Makes me think something is brewing.

Anything on Twitter that's say those same two scouts or other scouts haven't been to Manchester New Hampshaire or Las Vegas Nevada.

Shane Wahl
07-14-2012, 12:38 AM
Um, Capps for one of these guys would be brilliant. Liriano is a different story.

John Bonnes
07-14-2012, 01:47 AM
I wonder if Toonto might not have at least a little interest in Morneau, too.

Thrylos
07-14-2012, 09:47 AM
I wonder if Toonto might not have at least a little interest in Morneau, too.

More than one of the national MLB people indicated so starting about a month ago. Between this and the next season he is due $20 M. I would not be unhappy if someone else takes that own and the Twins re-purpose it and get something in return.

DPJ
07-14-2012, 09:50 AM
I wonder if Toonto might not have at least a little interest in Morneau, too.


Between Lind who's locked up and E5's new contract the Jays are pretty set at 1B/DH.