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View Full Version : ..in which we revisit a theme



Blake
07-05-2012, 02:14 PM
Comparing this year's Twins with last year, last year, the Twins had 0 out of 4 when it comes to fielding a winning team. Starting pitching: terrible. Defense: mediocre on a good day. Bullpen: awful. Offense: offensive.

This year the Twins arguably have three out of the 4 elements that make up a winning team. Starting pitching: Terrible, but with a couple of bright spots. Defense: acceptable to good. Bullpen: Very good. Offense: good to very good.

Considering the above, what pieces can be moved and not be missed? With the current state of the roster and no help available in Rochester to replace position players, I tend to think the Twins don't make a trade unless it's a team making a "win now no matter what the cost" trade.

Perhaps Morneau can be traded, but, beyond Morneau, (I'm dreaming of a Morneau for Billingsley trade) I don't see anyone on the roster, that, if moved, won't create a hole that will be hard to fill.

My suspicion is that Terry Ryan stands pat, unless offered a kings ransom, and attacks the free agent pitching market in the off season.*

Of course, there's always the minor problem of players regressing next year. (Plouffe, anyone?)

*any and all offers for Liriano should taken seriously.:p

jm3319
07-05-2012, 02:28 PM
hey if we get this whole pitching thing sorted out we'll have 4 out of 4 pieces in place to be on the fast track to getting swept in the first round of the playoffs like the good old days. Sadly...this would still be an improvement...

Blake
07-05-2012, 02:38 PM
jm3319...considering what's gone on before, you're an optimist, aren't you?

mike wants wins
07-05-2012, 02:53 PM
Umm, the offense is 11th in the AL in scoring. How is it good to very good?

jokin
07-05-2012, 03:02 PM
Umm, the offense is 11th in the AL in scoring. How is it good to very good?

Exactly. And today is an example of when they are supposedly "very good".

old nurse
07-05-2012, 03:12 PM
Exactly. And today is an example of when they are supposedly "very good".

Thirteen hits, a walk and only three runs. You are just joking with your comment of today being an example of good offense?

jokin
07-05-2012, 04:07 PM
Thirteen hits, a walk and only three runs. You are just joking with your comment of today being an example of good offense?

You will note for future reference that irony is part of my stock in trade.

Blake
07-05-2012, 04:12 PM
I was having fun with this until I looked over at Gameday and noticed Gardy managed his way out of a win.

How may pitches had Diamond thrown until he was pulled?

jokin
07-05-2012, 04:17 PM
I was having fun with this until I looked over at Gameday and noticed Gardy managed his way out of a win.

How may pitches had Diamond thrown until he was pulled?
91. Simple stuff, Dimey pitched his tail off.

diehardtwinsfan
07-05-2012, 04:59 PM
I think the good to very good on the offense comes from the fact that it is much improved from the beginning of the year. Plouffe has come on nicely, Dozier seems to be settling in, and Revere has learned how to do something other than hit a dribbler to the pitcher. Perhaps these guys will turn back to pumpkins... who knows, but there's a decent amount of hope for all 3 of them given they are all prospects.

That said, to answer the question, I doubt Ryan can do much of anything this year. He needs to add 2 or 3 starting pitchers in a market where that's going to cost him something. To do that, he's going to empty the farm, and there's no way he should dump Sano, Rosario, and Arcia to obtain that pitching, and the guys he can dump (like Tosoni) won't get us jack squat.

The best option if Ryan wants to contend is to go hard after pitching this offseason, and I'd say that means getting at least 3 above average starters, counting on diamond, and hoping that one of Gibson or Hendricks can step up and claim that last spot.... I'll be surprised if they get more than one good starter.

stringer bell
07-05-2012, 05:07 PM
Comparing this year's Twins with last year, last year, the Twins had 0 out of 4 when it comes to fielding a winning team. Starting pitching: terrible. Defense: mediocre on a good day. Bullpen: awful. Offense: offensive.

This year the Twins arguably have three out of the 4 elements that make up a winning team. Starting pitching: Terrible, but with a couple of bright spots. Defense: acceptable to good. Bullpen: Very good. Offense: good to very good.

Considering the above, what pieces can be moved and not be missed? With the current state of the roster and no help available in Rochester to replace position players, I tend to think the Twins don't make a trade unless it's a team making a "win now no matter what the cost" trade.

Perhaps Morneau can be traded, but, beyond Morneau, (I'm dreaming of a Morneau for Billingsley trade) I don't see anyone on the roster, that, if moved, won't create a hole that will be hard to fill.

My suspicion is that Terry Ryan stands pat, unless offered a kings ransom, and attacks the free agent pitching market in the off season.*

Of course, there's always the minor problem of players regressing next year. (Plouffe, anyone?)

*any and all offers for Liriano should taken seriously.:pI agree with your assessment that the club is pretty good except for starting pitching. I would say the team is close to average offensively. They are in the middle in OPS and have scored a lot more runs recently. 37 of 71 homers have come from two players. No team is so dependent on a pair of players for power.

I don't agree at all that the Twins will or should stand pat. Revere has shown enough that Span is expendable. Long term, I can't see this club proceeding with two no-power speed guys as regulars in the outfield. Liriano is a total tease and should be traded especially since he will be a free agent in the off-season. On another thread I publicly wished that Morneau would get it going so that he has trade value. If the Twins can get value for him, they should trade Capps, as well.

notoriousgod71
07-05-2012, 06:10 PM
Comparing this year's Twins with last year, last year, the Twins had 0 out of 4 when it comes to fielding a winning team. Starting pitching: terrible. Defense: mediocre on a good day. Bullpen: awful. Offense: offensive.

This year the Twins arguably have three out of the 4 elements that make up a winning team. Starting pitching: Terrible, but with a couple of bright spots. Defense: acceptable to good. Bullpen: Very good. Offense: good to very good.

Considering the above, what pieces can be moved and not be missed? With the current state of the roster and no help available in Rochester to replace position players, I tend to think the Twins don't make a trade unless it's a team making a "win now no matter what the cost" trade.

Perhaps Morneau can be traded, but, beyond Morneau, (I'm dreaming of a Morneau for Billingsley trade) I don't see anyone on the roster, that, if moved, won't create a hole that will be hard to fill.

My suspicion is that Terry Ryan stands pat, unless offered a kings ransom, and attacks the free agent pitching market in the off season.*

Of course, there's always the minor problem of players regressing next year. (Plouffe, anyone?)

*any and all offers for Liriano should taken seriously.:p

If three of the four are very good and we have the same record as last year, I guess that proves that starting pitching is the most important aspect in baseball.

PseudoSABR
07-06-2012, 02:41 AM
If three of the four are very good and we have the same record as last year, I guess that proves that starting pitching is the most important aspect in baseball.Or that our starting pitching is historically bad.

The offense, beyond April, has been relatively good. The bullpen seems like smoke and mirrors, but I suppose it always is. The defense is improved in the outfield but the infield with Plouffe (who is better at 3rd but makes cringe worthy plays often enough) and Dozier who was well-regarded defensively but has been a hot mess. Even Carroll has missed on fundamental plays.

In my mind, the only significant improvement is the offense. The Doumit/Willingham duo is probably better for the Twins than Kubel/Cuddyer (at a discount, too (kudos, JR)) combined with Mauer and Morneau being healthy and one of the two returning to form, along with Plouffemania mark the improvements. And while the bullpen has been much better, the starting pitching has regressed unimaginably over last year. Who thought Diamond would be our best option? Not even Nick could have predicated the pitching would be this bad. ;)

diehardtwinsfan
07-06-2012, 09:55 AM
yeah, a Liriano who isn't a headcase and a Baker without the TJ and this team is battling Chicago right now... The Twins desparately need good starters. If they fancy themselves as competitors this offseason, they are going to need to go out and get 3 above average ones and hope that one of Gibson/Hendricks steps up in 2013 and that Diamond doesn't turn back into a pumpkin. I don't think the 20M they plan on spending is going to be enough.

Perhaps they can get something nice for Span... Perhaps the Yankees would be so willing to give up on Pineda and trade him to us for Span and Liriano... That's a pipe dream though...