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View Full Version : Pavano's return delayed?



John Bonnes
07-03-2012, 03:33 PM
In his show today, after talking with Rick Anderson, Paul Allen hinted about two things going on with the Twins pitching staff. The first was that Hendriks had made his last start with the major league team for a bit, and that played out today when he was demoted and De Vries was called up.

But the second was that Pavano is still not throwing yet and that the Twins are very disappointed by that. This is apparently taking longer to recover from than they had hoped. To review...

6/4 - Pavano was put on DL
6/15 - we heard the shoulder was getting stronger
6/24 - Joe C reported that Pavano would begin a throwing program "this week"
6/27 - Joe C reports he's playing long toss but hasn't thrown from a mound
7/3 - crickets

At this point, I gotta think there is no way he has enough starts to generate any trade value. Seeing as it's unlikely he wants to be traded, that's probably just fine with him.

Thrylos
07-03-2012, 03:53 PM
If he comes back after the AS break, he probably has 2-3 starts in July and 4-5 in August to generate value. At this point anyone with a pulse has more future with the Twins than Pavano does, so if they get anything in return, the better it is.
If they don't, they can just sit him and play the kids, esp. if he is not eager to come back. That would do wonders to his free agent value.

SweetOne69
07-03-2012, 04:17 PM
If he comes back after the AS break, he probably has 2-3 starts in July and 4-5 in August to generate value. At this point anyone with a pulse has more future with the Twins than Pavano does, so if they get anything in return, the better it is.
If they don't, they can just sit him and play the kids, esp. if he is not eager to come back. That would do wonders to his free agent value.

That Scenario could play out if he started throwing last week. If he hasn't started throwing he won't be back until August at the earliest as he will need at least 3 rehab starts after about a week of throwing to get his arm strength back so that is a minimum of three weeks after he starts throwing.

Nick Nelson
07-03-2012, 04:22 PM
Another instance of a pitcher taking too long to come back from injury and the Twins getting mad at him about it. I fully expect to learn of some serious issue with Pavano's shoulder that previously went undiagnosed.

DPJ
07-03-2012, 05:00 PM
Wasn't there a death in his family or something

I'm not using that as an excuse, he's still a professional getting paid millions. But could that be the reason he's behind the ball.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
07-03-2012, 05:44 PM
Pavano will do anything to stay with Drew Butera in MN.

CDog
07-03-2012, 06:40 PM
and the Twins getting mad at him about it. .

Source for them having that reaction?

jctwins
07-03-2012, 09:09 PM
Quick aside...when did anything PA had to say about the Twins or baseball mean anything?

Nick Nelson
07-04-2012, 12:38 AM
Source for them having that reaction?

Just going off what John said. Would be characteristic of this team.

CDog
07-04-2012, 03:42 AM
Just going off what John said. Would be characteristic of this team.

Twins are likely disappointed that Willingham didn't make the All Star team. Are they mad at him?

snepp
07-04-2012, 07:30 AM
Twins are likely disappointed that Willingham didn't make the All Star team. Are they mad at him?


How do you even respond to something this ****ing stupid?

diehardtwinsfan
07-04-2012, 10:16 AM
Twins are likely disappointed that Willingham didn't make the All Star team. Are they mad at him?


Whether or not it's true in this case, there is a well defined pattern of the organization bashing guys publicly and getting mad at them for "not recovering." and it usually turns out that there was something else wrong. The medical staff on this team is an absolute joke.

greengoblinrulz
07-04-2012, 10:32 AM
ANY MN Twins info/baseball talk in general from Paul Allen should be disregarded immediately. He & the entire KFAN staff would be laughed off this board for their lack of knowledge on the sport. Stick to football.

drjim
07-04-2012, 10:38 AM
At this point, I gotta think there is no way he has enough starts to generate any trade value. Seeing as it's unlikely he wants to be traded, that's probably just fine with him.

Do you really think the Twins would get much in value from him even if he was healthy?

Letting him take the time to get healthy and hopefully come back and pitch decent might lead to a situation where the Twins can dump his salary in August, which is probably the best case scenario, just like when they acquired him in 09.

CDog
07-04-2012, 11:32 AM
How do you even respond to something this ****ing stupid?

If you're unable to read and understand a point, apparently by being profane and adding nothing to anything.

CDog
07-04-2012, 11:32 AM
Whether or not it's true in this case, there is a well defined pattern of the organization bashing guys publicly and getting mad at them for "not recovering." and it usually turns out that there was something else wrong. The medical staff on this team is an absolute joke.

Well defined by...? Your perceptions?

CDog
07-04-2012, 11:34 AM
Just going off what John said. Would be characteristic of this team.

John's post only said that the team was disappointed not to have Pavano ready. There wasn't a word there to imply it was AT him. "By that" and "at him" are not the same. Which is why I was wondering if there was something from the actual team that implied what you had said.

USAFChief
07-04-2012, 03:07 PM
If you're unable to read and understand a point, apparently by being profane and adding nothing to anything.

Oh the irony.

CDog
07-04-2012, 06:06 PM
Oh the irony.

I would like to make a very sincere request that you find a post I've made that: had as little (none) content toward the topic at hand as the one I had replied to that you quoted here; has anywhere near the level of personally aggressive vitriol as that post; or includes an unprovoked attack someone personally. I would like to learn from my mistakes to not be that person. So again...this is a sincere request to find one/some and bring them to my attention.

snepp
07-04-2012, 06:20 PM
Yes, you're completely innocent, a poor martyr of a poster being picked on.

Or, you made a moronic post (containing no content toward the topic at hand) and are being called out for it directly rather than using the passive aggressiveness you prefer to employ.

CDog
07-04-2012, 06:38 PM
Yes, you're completely innocent, a poor martyr of a poster being picked on.

Or, you made a moronic post (containing no content toward the topic at hand) and are being called out for it directly rather than using the passive aggressiveness you prefer to employ.

The point was made in the post you first quoted, and was about exactly the topic at hand AND subsequently more directly for anyone who wasn't able to catch the drift of the first question. This after a previous thread where you repeatedly tried to belittle me after taking the opposite of my actual meaning and then doing it again once I had repeated the original intent. Once again, you're showing your inability or unwillingness to read and interpret.

I made an honest, sincere attempt to learn from my own mistakes. To you that makes me claim to be a completely innocent and poor martyr. See final sentence of previous paragraph.

USAFChief
07-04-2012, 06:48 PM
I'll take a shot...when you have 450+ posts, and roughly 400 of them are backhanded slaps at individual posters, or disingenuous "questions" designed not to get information but to imply the original poster is making things up or is an idiot, rather than original baseball content, people catch on. One can ignore it, but when you turn around and accuse others of those very things...well...

I'm guilty of some of that myself. I'll try to do better.

And for the record, Snepp is one of the funniest, most insightful posters anywhere. He makes this place better. Trust me on this, I think you'll come around.

glunn
07-04-2012, 07:08 PM
I think that we all could do better. This is a great site for respectful debate. Disagreement makes it interesting, but personal attacks are distracting And practicing passionate debate while remaining respectful is a skill that will serve us well in the real world as well. If only our politicians could learn this.

jctwins
07-04-2012, 08:01 PM
I think it's OK if not every post is baseball related. There is plenty of minutiae here, and always room for a little fun, too. I have enjoyed this thread.

snepp
07-04-2012, 10:59 PM
And for the record, Snepp is one of the funniest, most insightful posters anywhere. He makes this place better. Trust me on this, I think you'll come around.

Remember that the next time we "discuss" the merits of certain "advanced" statistical measurements. :p

USAFChief
07-04-2012, 11:04 PM
Remember that the next time we "discuss" the merits of certain "advanced" statistical measurements. :p

Those are the times I consider you funny, rather than insightful. ;)

snepp
07-04-2012, 11:14 PM
Those are the times I consider you funny, rather than insightful. ;)

Damn, that's cold blooded....




I laughed, that was pretty good.

CDog
07-05-2012, 12:07 AM
I'll take a shot...when you have 450+ posts, and roughly 400 of them are backhanded slaps at individual posters, or disingenuous "questions" designed not to get information but to imply the original poster is making things up or is an idiot, rather than original baseball content, people catch on. One can ignore it, but when you turn around and accuse others of those very things...well...

I'm guilty of some of that myself. I'll try to do better.

And for the record, Snepp is one of the funniest, most insightful posters anywhere. He makes this place better. Trust me on this, I think you'll come around.

Starting with paragraph 2...Understood and the sentiment is appreciated.

As for paragraph 3, I will continue to take him as he presents himself as I try to do with others.

And paragraph 1...I'm going to try not to get too defensive. I asked the question honestly and I'll take the reply at it's worth. However, the question I asked wasn't the one answered. Also, the "roughly 400" is, in fact, clearly made up and that seems not to be in line with the conciliatory tone I was hoping for.

And the following comments are not meant to be dismissive of yours nor defensive, but simply continuing discussion (and granted, maybe that shouldn't happen here in this thread): I would truly like to know if I've made a slap--backhanded or otherwise--on a PERSONAL level (and not about the facts or the opinions in the post) that was not in response to one leveled at me. Again, it's an honest question. I don't think I have, and clearly you do. Fourth, when someone says something I don't agree with or think may be factually wrong but don't know, I often will ask them to clarify, and contrary to your claim, usually I am indeed looking for information. That's not typically disingenuous (there are obviously cases where something is really ridiculous and the question may be used as a way to illustrate rhetorically...and I will try to do better with that. There was one in this thread that was asked to illustrate the point I made later more directly. It wasn't meant to belittle anyone, merely to make an analogy).

And finally, the post you originally replied to in this thread was in turn a response to a specific post. And, as I asked before, I would honestly like to know if I have ever, ever lashed out in the manner of that post, (especially unprovoked). Or even nearly to that level.

PseudoSABR
07-05-2012, 12:41 AM
Look, CDog. Asking whether the Twins are mad at Willingham is totally backhanded and not at all "asking someone to clarify." It totally misses the context Nick's comment, which is unforgiveable if you consider yourself an educated fan. The reality is that the Twins have had many public contentious relationships with their players about health--Perkins might be the most commonly cited example, but these kinds of issues of cropped up with numerous players. Whether it's the players being dishonest themselves or the Twins medical staff being inept the Twins have handled player injuries poorly both internally and publicly--to say otherwise is nothing more than tone-deaf homerism and other better-informed posters will call you out on it.

And as along as your open to criticism (which I somehow doubt), we'd all appreciate if you took a bit more time and reread your posts; they are difficult to muddle through and are logistical nightmares (One example: using the word "Fourth" in the middle of your second to last paragraph of the prior post is completely nonsensical). People will take you more seriously the more seriously you take yourself.

There's no need to reply to me. I'm not interested in debating these issues; I just wanted to clarify in case of the off chance you were sincere in your ignorance or openness to critique.

clutterheart
07-05-2012, 02:11 AM
Or, you made a moronic post (containing no content toward the topic at hand) and are being called out for it directly rather than using the passive aggressiveness you prefer to employ.

In this post you self-censored sweared at the guy, then insulted his posts.

I would expect more cerebral arguments from a guy with Donatello as an avatar.

John Bonnes
07-05-2012, 08:26 AM
How do you even respond to something this ****ing stupid?

I think we all want this community to be as inclusive as possible to Twins fans. Could we all try to cool down a second before we escalate a thread into a personal attack? If we can't police ourselves, the administrators will need to.