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Thrylos
06-29-2012, 10:52 AM
Gems from Rob Neyer's twitter (https://twitter.com/robneyer) covering Ryans' speech. Actual quotes:

"I don't have the education. I don't have the intellect. I don't have the computer skills."

Ryan says Twins have struggled in Dominican Republic, and that it's his fault

"I haven't fixed a thing. We're exactly where we were last year."

This indicates to me that it is about time for the interim to resign and the Twins to actually get a GM who has the intellect, education and skills, to clear house on the organization from the top to the bottom and have this team compete in the 21st century.

About freaking time...

Brock Beauchamp
06-29-2012, 10:57 AM
Actually, I give him credit for acknowledging weakness. Nobody knows everything. It takes a smart man to know when he's out of his league and that people should be hired to compensate for his shortcomings.

This is a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect at work. By saying these things, Ryan is proving that he's actually not stupid.

Mauerzy4Prez
06-29-2012, 11:19 AM
I guess I see a lot of holes in this post. Seems like any time you take quotes and chose what to report, there is a lot of room for things to be taken out of context. Can we have more details regarding when this speech was given, a full version? Not saying I disagree that these lines are slightly alarming, however I think we owe it to the guy to at least see the full story. As of right now Thrylos, this just looks like you cut and pasted lines out of a Terry Ryan speech, to make the guy look incompetent and have an excuse to call for his head.

gunnarthor
06-29-2012, 11:28 AM
SABR announced that they will be giving Ryan their Roland Hemond Award which (http://sabr.org/about/roland-hemond-award) "recognizes the baseball executive who has demonstrated a lifetime commitment to professional baseball scouts and scouting, and player development history" in 2013.

mike wants wins
06-29-2012, 11:34 AM
Look, we all know they just don't like data and stats. Gardy has said it (see the article in the Pioneer Press today), Rob Antony has said it lat year, Ryan has said it. This team just doesn't believe in math and science, that's by their own admission. I have never understood people that resist the forward motion of knowledge, and I don't understand the Twins' insistence that somehow being ignorant in the use of math and science to predict outcomes (which is pretty much the entire point of math) is a good thing to be defended and be proud of. Like, do they still use corded phones and typewriters? Do they use medicine?

Thrylos
06-29-2012, 11:40 AM
Actually, I give him credit for acknowledging weakness. Nobody knows everything. It takes a smart man to know when he's out of his league and that people should be hired to compensate for his shortcomings.

This is a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect at work. By saying these things, Ryan is proving that he's actually not stupid.

He is not stupid. But he in so many words acknowledged that a. he did a crappy job and b. he is not up to par with modern analysis to do his job.

Time to go.

fetch
06-29-2012, 11:44 AM
He is not stupid. But he in so many words acknowledged that a. he did a crappy job and b. he is not up to par with modern analysis to do his job.

Time to go.

I think so too. He can keep scouting since that's obviously what he loves and does best, but it's time to get a CEO type guy in the GM spot.

Vervehound
06-29-2012, 11:57 AM
Look, we all know they just don't like data and stats. Gardy has said it (see the article in the Pioneer Press today), Rob Antony has said it lat year, Ryan has said it. This team just doesn't believe in math and science, that's by their own admission. I have never understood people that resist the forward motion of knowledge, and I don't understand the Twins' insistence that somehow being ignorant in the use of math and science to predict outcomes (which is pretty much the entire point of math) is a good thing to be defended and be proud of. Like, do they still use corded phones and typewriters? Do they use medicine?

you can say all you want about the twins shortcomings as an organization, but if one of our players came down with bubonic plague, there is no field staff in baseball more prepared to give him a blood letting or the proper poultice.

DPJ
06-29-2012, 12:05 PM
I really don't think Ryan wants to do this anymore (being GM) He's a dinosaur in this business and he either is too old, too uneducated or just don't want to adapt.

If the Pohlads can't see this then God help this franchise.

Highabove
06-29-2012, 12:14 PM
The Pohlad's first concern is making money. As long as they do that, they will not make any changes.

Even with a large attendance drop, the Pohlad's are set up to make a nice profit.

CDog
06-29-2012, 12:17 PM
I don't know what Terry Ryan knows or wants to know or doesn't know about math or statistics. (I would suspect that is also true of almost everyone posting here.) I do know that anyone with sense can realize that the first quote has virtually nothing to do with Terry Ryan and almost everything to do with his audience and the forum in which it was said.

powrwrap
06-29-2012, 12:22 PM
it's time to get a CEO type guy in the GM spot.

You mean a businessman type or a lawyer? No thanks. Give me a guy that can spot talent over a guy that knows how to find loopholes in contracts and amortize money.

fetch
06-29-2012, 12:27 PM
You mean a businessman type or a lawyer? No thanks. Give me a guy that can spot talent over a guy that knows how to find loopholes in contracts and amortize money.

I mean a guy who is smart enough to hire guys to cover his deficiencies. Running a club isn't a one man job anymore.

spideyo
06-29-2012, 01:02 PM
uhh...Terry Ryan has a huge team of scouts, analysts, and assistants across the world. He's not doing it all himself, he's just the only guy giving soundbites.

Now, could they make upgrades to his support staff? Of course! But he's been focused more on trying to fix the team on the field first.

And I think he was made interim GM because they knew they needed Bill Smith out of the role, and couldn't afford to take the time to do an exhaustive search for a new GM. After this season, who knows? It's quite possible that there are already candidate lists being made, behind the scenes conversations being had. Personally, I'd rather them have Terry Ryan as a stop gap measure to at least keep the ship from sinking entirely while they actually take the time to evaluate and find the BEST permanent guy, rather than them just immediately signing the first guy they could find outside the organization and throw him right into the mess Bill Smith made.


And Bill Smith IS a businessman type. That didn't work out so well.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 01:04 PM
Gems from Rob Neyer's twitter (https://twitter.com/robneyer) covering Ryans' speech. Actual quotes:

"I don't have the education. I don't have the intellect. I don't have the computer skills."

Ryan says Twins have struggled in Dominican Republic, and that it's his fault

"I haven't fixed a thing. We're exactly where we were last year."

This indicates to me that it is about time for the interim to resign and the Twins to actually get a GM who has the intellect, education and skills, to clear house on the organization from the top to the bottom and have this team compete in the 21st century.

About freaking time...
What exactly were those quotes in reference to? I highly doubt the question asked were "Can you handle being a GM and his answer was that he lacks the intelligence or some other B.S."

Ryan has his faults no doubt, but its hard to knock his past success as the Twins GM and even his recent success this past off-season. Smith is the one who took a perennial division winning team and turned them into a last place team.

However with that said, I'd be interested to see just how long Ryan is committed to be the Twins GM, the interim label always had me skeptical, if he plans on being around for the next 3+ years than I say keep him around, however if its just a 1-2 year type thing for him its probably better to grab someone sooner than later now that the team is rebuilding.

ChuckkJay
06-29-2012, 01:09 PM
I am always curious if Thrylos is really a Twins fan. If you really are, WHY? I've not read a single thing from you that's positive; it seems you dislike everything about the organization. What is it about the Twins that keeps you interested?

I'm all for balanced evaluation and critique of the Twins, but that's not what we get from Thrylos.

Boom Boom
06-29-2012, 01:14 PM
Smith is the one who took a perennial division winning team and turned them into a last place team.


Smith was a bad GM, no doubt. But he's a scapegoat.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 01:19 PM
Smith was a bad GM, no doubt. But he's a scapegoat.

How is he a scapegoat? Not one deal outside of the Scott Diamond pick up was a good move on his part.
The Gomez for Hardy trade is a wash because he turned around and traded Hardy for Hoey!

fetch
06-29-2012, 01:21 PM
uhh...Terry Ryan has a huge team of scouts, analysts, and assistants across the world. He's not doing it all himself, he's just the only guy giving soundbites.




I'm sure you can't swear on here, so I'll just say no poop.

Boom Boom
06-29-2012, 01:35 PM
How is he a scapegoat? Not one deal outside of the Scott Diamond pick up was a good move on his part.
The Gomez for Hardy trade is a wash because he turned around and traded Hardy for Hoey!

Because the Twins tailspin into oblivion is more complicated than that. Smith is a scapegoat because he's a big part of the organizational failure, but in no way is he solely responsible.

Ryan drafted poorly in his last few years before resigning. And he was special advisor to Smith during his tenure. Ryan had the cache in the organization to question Smith's moves. Smith was GM at the time, but Ryan's hands are not clean of this mess.

Also... Smith did sign Thome, and traded Yohan Pino for Carl Pavano.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 01:39 PM
Because the Twins tailspin into oblivion is more complicated than that. Smith is a scapegoat because he's a big part of the organizational failure, but in no way is he solely responsible.

Ryan drafted poorly in his last few years before resigning. And he was special advisor to Smith during his tenure. Ryan had the cache in the organization to question Smith's moves. Smith was GM at the time, but Ryan's hands are not clean of this mess.

Also... Smith did sign Thome, and traded Yohan Pino for Carl Pavano.

Ryan was and may still be one of the better GM's around, Bill Smith's tenure was nothing short of awful/poor.

Wilson Ramos for Matt Capps. Need I say any more?

Seth Stohs
06-29-2012, 01:42 PM
Yeah, these were some interesting quotes hand-picked out of context. Self-deprecating is a good thing... Terry Ryan has proven he can handle this job. He's made good moves this year. We all know that this isn't a one-year fix. He's good.

Boom Boom
06-29-2012, 01:44 PM
Ryan was and may still be one of the better GM's around, Bill Smith's tenure was nothing short of awful/poor.

Wilson Ramos for Matt Capps. Need I say any more?

I'm not disagreeing that Smith was awful.

My point is that Ryan DID have something to do with how awful Smith was and how awful the Twins have been for the last two years. Ryan's not innocent, and Smith isn't completely to blame.

gunnarthor
06-29-2012, 01:46 PM
Wilson Ramos for Matt Capps. Need I say any more?

By bWAR, Capps has been equal to Wilson since the trade.

DPJ
06-29-2012, 01:49 PM
By bWAR, Capps has been equal to Wilson since the trade.

Don't you dare try to excuse that abomination of a move.

NTM the that equal WAR has cost the Twins about 13 million while it's cost the Nats 400K.

DPJ
06-29-2012, 01:52 PM
Smith was a bad GM, no doubt. But he's a scapegoat.

Exactly, Smith didn't have awful drafts one after the other.

No doubt Smith made some bad moves, but IMO Deron Johnson has done more harm to this franchise to Smith.

Mr. Ed
06-29-2012, 01:54 PM
No doubt Smith made some bad moves, but IMO Deron Johnson has done more harm to this franchise to Smith.



Agreed. He's been in charge of the drafts. Needs some of the blame.

TwinVike61
06-29-2012, 01:55 PM
I'd rather them have Terry Ryan as a stop gap measure to at least keep the ship from sinking entirely...

...or to keep them from trading valuable players for magic beans and shiny trinkets.

gunnarthor
06-29-2012, 01:55 PM
Don't you dare try to excuse that abomination of a move.

NTM the that equal WAR has cost the Twins about 13 million while it's cost the Nats 400K.

Perhaps, but I think it's fun to point out WAR's valuations in a thread where people are angry that the Twins (seemingly) aren't into advanced stats like WAR.

mike wants wins
06-29-2012, 01:56 PM
Despite the complete lack of difference making or even league average players coming up from the majors in 3+ years, Seth is still a believer in Terry Ryan. The lack of young players in the majors is on the time from when Ryan was GM. So far, he's made a couple of nice, stop gap signings and decided a cheaper, better, younger willingham was better than Cuddeyer. But that's it. This team is the same bad, underachieiving, poorly run when it comes to injuries team it was last year. If you don't change things, things don't genearlly change.

DPJ
06-29-2012, 01:57 PM
Agreed. He's been in charge of the drafts. Needs some of the blame.

Smith caught hell left and right but I've yet to see any blame going to the man running the drafts.

Johnson is the reason the Twins have no pitching, no depth and a middle of the road MiLB system.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 02:07 PM
By bWAR, Capps has been equal to Wilson since the trade.

Are you making a point with this? Because as DPJ pointed out this is not even close to something that can excuse that trade.
But since I am bored...Salaries have been pointed out already.

-Ramos is still under team control for several more years and is still young.
-The Twins already had a capable closer in Rauch, and had Nathan coming back for the future. NTM closer is a rather easy position to fill.
-The Twins had no reason to trade from a position of weakness, Mauer still had injury issues at the time and you need to look no further than Drew Butera to see just who the Twins had on the depth chart behind Ramos.

That trade was awful then, and with each year looks more and more awful.

Thrylos
06-29-2012, 02:08 PM
I am always curious if Thrylos is really a Twins fan. If you really are, WHY? I've not read a single thing from you that's positive; it seems you dislike everything about the organization. What is it about the Twins that keeps you interested?

I'm all for balanced evaluation and critique of the Twins, but that's not what we get from Thrylos.

I am a Twins fan and I want my team to win. So I am critical of people who are with the Twins (like Ryan and Gardenhire for example) who are not helping the team win. I think the Twins can do better. I hate what those people are doing to my team. Hope that explains it.

What you are saying is equivalent to if you do not like your President or your congressperson you are not an American...

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 02:09 PM
The more I think about it, the more absurd I think it is that people want to run Ryan out of town.

Its been a rough two years no doubt, but getting rid of a talented GM like Ryan is doing more harm than good (example: See what happened last time we lost Ryan)
You think people in Oakland are calling for Billy Beane's head since they have had a few rough years?

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 02:12 PM
I am a Twins fan and I want my team to win. So I am critical of people who are with the Twins (like Ryan and Gardenhire for example) who are not helping the team win. I think the Twins can do better. I hate what those people are doing to my team. Hope that explains it.

What you are saying is equivalent to if you do not like your President or your congressperson you are not an American...

Can you please explain to me how Ryan is not helping this team win? What exactly was he supposed to do this off-season to turn them into a power house? What was the Thrylos98 plan of attack? ( feel free to even use hindsight in your answer on this one)

Also, Gardy has his faults as well, but is still one of the better managers in the game, not sure exactly how he has kept this team from winning this year...unless you fault him for pitching injuries and his inability to teach Blackburn to throw 95 MPH heat.

Thrylos
06-29-2012, 02:14 PM
The more I think about it, the more absurd I think it is that people want to run Ryan out of town.

Its been a rough two years no doubt, but getting rid of a talented GM like Ryan is doing more harm than good (example: See what happened last time we lost Ryan)
You think people in Oakland are calling for Billy Beane's head since they have had a few rough years?

All has to do with where you set the bar. If you accept mediocrity and are very happy with a few division wins here and there and one and outs in the postseason, then I do understand why thinking that Ryan/Gardenhire/etc are successful.

On the other hand if you set the bar higher, you do not think that they are successful. Look at what Boston did after a disappointing (for them) season to the GM and manager that brought World Series titles to town.

All a matter of perspective. Been long since 1991...

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 02:17 PM
All has to do with where you set the bar. If you accept mediocrity and are very happy with a few division wins here and there and one and outs in the postseason, then I do understand why thinking that Ryan/Gardenhire/etc are successful.

On the other hand if you set the bar higher, you do not think that they are successful. Look at what Boston did after a disappointing (for them) season to the GM and manager that brought World Series titles to town.

All a matter of perspective. Been long since 1991...

Are you saying the 2006 team didn't have enough talent to challenge or even be a favorite for a world series?
Heck, the only year I think the Twins were completely out matched heading into the playoffs was 2008, the rest of the years they had a solid enough roster where they SHOULD have been able to compete.

Hard to blame that on Ryan.

JB_Iowa
06-29-2012, 02:21 PM
I don't think the remarks at SABR mean much of anything. BUT....

I do believe that this organization needs a big influx of new ideas, energy and talent. And I significantly doubt that will happen with TR at the helm.

The Twins had a good system that worked for a number of years with a low payroll team in a weak division. BUT they also seem to have fallen into a rut. And, if you look at the management staff of this organization, there is very little change.

Terry Ryan HAS to be invested (who wouldn't be?) in the "system" that he and TK developed in the early 2000's. But times change AND unless you bring in new energy and ideas, stagnation sets in.

Not all of the Twins management (front office and field staff) has to go. But someone with a fresh persepctive needs to be at the helm and deciding what to keep, what to modify and what to toss -- and doing it with respect to all aspects of the baseball operations (from scouting through minor leagues through coaching and managing through medical and training and more). I don't think that person is TR.

gunnarthor
06-29-2012, 02:30 PM
Are you making a point with this? Because as DPJ pointed out this is not even close to something that can excuse that trade.
But since I am bored...Salaries have been pointed out already.

-Ramos is still under team control for several more years and is still young.
-The Twins already had a capable closer in Rauch, and had Nathan coming back for the future. NTM closer is a rather easy position to fill.
-The Twins had no reason to trade from a position of weakness, Mauer still had injury issues at the time and you need to look no further than Drew Butera to see just who the Twins had on the depth chart behind Ramos.

That trade was awful then, and with each year looks more and more awful.

Oh, hell, why not. John Sickels said of it at the time: Capps reinforces the Twins bullpen for the stretch run. Testa isn't a prospect, but Ramos definitely is. I have some misgivings about his bat due to his sketchy plate discipline, but his glove has really come around and his power potential remains impressive. I like him, but not enough to pan the trade from Minnesota's point of view; I think it is fair for both teams. In my Shadow Twins universe, I will make this trade.

To your points:

- Ramos is under team control but is hurt, a problem he always had. Baseball America noted that at the time of the trade: "The Twins had issues with his conditioning, and he's heavier than the above indicates. He's a base-clogger and well-below-average runner." They dropped him 30 spots in their prospect ranking after that. Twins fans seem to think Ramos is the second coming of Johnny Bench or something. He hits 8th in an NL lineup. In truth, he's a league avg catcher if he stays healthy. Washington Post was writing about his defensive regressions prior to his season ending injury.
- Twins dropped 10 games in standings in summer 2010 and bad bullpen was a major reason. Nathan wasn't coming back in 2010 (and really, he wasn't all that good at the start of 2011 either). Twins credited Capps with stabilizing the pen for them. Fangraphs noted that Capps was easily the Twins best bullpen arm.
- Catcher wasn't a position of weakness, they had a HOF caliber catcher making Ramos a nice luxury that a team in win-now mode didn't need.

As I pointed out, WAR value makes the trade a wash, although hopefully the Twins still move Capps for something this year.

nicksaviking
06-29-2012, 03:01 PM
It thought the most baffling quote was:--robneyer ‏@robneyer When it comes to amateur pitchers, Terry Ryan not a big fan of change-ups and curveballs.-- What the hell does is that supposed to mean? The Twins jut about demand everyone in the system learn the change-up. Is he saying that he doesn't like pitchers to throw it BEFORE they come to the Twins so they can learn how to throw it the "right" way? Or is he saying he doesn't like the change-up but people within the organization circumvent his stratagy by teaching it to the kids anyway?

silverslugger
06-29-2012, 03:10 PM
Unfortunately, I have a feeling the Pohlads think they already have the successor to Terry Ryan in the fold and his name is Wayne Krivsky. Ugh...just Ugh!!! I've been a Twins fan since the mid-70's as a young kid. Back then I couldn't wait to get my strib and my pi press and read the daily columns and sift through the box scores. I haven't gotten a paper delivered to my doorstep in over a decade, wouldn't think of it. I get almost all of my sports information off the internet and most of my Twins coverage from the blogosphere. I read some of the new age statistical stuff including much of the Bill James stuff as early as the late 80's. John Bonnes and Aaron Gleeman took my Twins information research into a new universe 5-7 years ago and now I more fully appreciate advanced metrics. It's time the Twins organization pulled their collective head out of their collective you know what and embraced the benefits of advanced research. And please, please, please...no Wayne Krivsky!!!

Thrylos
06-29-2012, 03:12 PM
Are you saying the 2006 team didn't have enough talent to challenge or even be a favorite for a world series?
Heck, the only year I think the Twins were completely out matched heading into the playoffs was 2008, the rest of the years they had a solid enough roster where they SHOULD have been able to compete.

Hard to blame that on Ryan.

Then you blame it on Gardenhire. Do you?

PseudoSABR
06-29-2012, 03:14 PM
Ramos will continue to play for the Nationals far longer then Capps will for the Twins and at far more inexpensive contract. Using WAR to compare a veteran traded for a prospect is totally disingenuous, and would look even more foolish if Ramos wasn't out for the season.

gunnarthor
06-29-2012, 03:15 PM
It thought the most baffling quote was:--robneyer ‏@robneyer When it comes to amateur pitchers, Terry Ryan not a big fan of change-ups and curveballs.-- What the hell does is that supposed to mean? The Twins jut about demand everyone in the system learn the change-up. Is he saying that he doesn't like pitchers to throw it BEFORE they come to the Twins so they can learn how to throw it the "right" way? Or is he saying he doesn't like the change-up but people within the organization circumvent his stratagy by teaching it to the kids anyway?

Yeah, that was weird. I know we drafted Wimmers based on his change-up. Did it mean he thinks high school kids shouldn't be throwing curves? Or is more interested in fastball speed and control over other pitches?

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 03:26 PM
Then you blame it on Gardenhire. Do you?

Gardy deserves some blame, but bad luck, bad matchups (seriously, the Twins matched up terribly against the Yankees those years) and the players (see Hunter's mistake, hitting disappearing) share equal blame.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 03:28 PM
Yeah, that was weird. I know we drafted Wimmers based on his change-up. Did it mean he thinks high school kids shouldn't be throwing curves? Or is more interested in fastball speed and control over other pitches?

I think he meant that curve balls/change ups can often be taught and refined in a big league organization, fastball, velocity and control etc can't so much be taught after the kid is done with high school/college.

nicksaviking
06-29-2012, 04:01 PM
I think he meant that curve balls/change ups can often be taught and refined in a big league organization, fastball, velocity and control etc can't so much be taught after the kid is done with high school/college.That's the best assumption from that strange quote. Of course he couldn't say it exactly as you put it becauset that has only been the Twins stratagy for about the last five minutets. Velocity was largely disregarded by this organization up until last year when the Twins finally jumped on the strikeout bandwagon and took a shot at Boer, Boyd, Williams, Hoey and Oliveros. Of course that quote was actually Neyer's, not Ryan's. Neyer may have translated it poorly. It wouldn't be the first time a reporter used Twitter as an excuse for a lax jounalistic effort.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 04:07 PM
Of course that quote was actually Neyer's, not Ryan's. Neyer may have translated it poorly. It wouldn't be the first time a reporter used Twitter as an excuse for a lax jounalistic effort.

Also it was at a SABR conference, so Ryan may have been distracted from the stench from the folks who haven't left there parents basement fo the past year and the amount of neck-beards in the audience ;)

one_eyed_jack
06-29-2012, 04:15 PM
Gardy deserves some blame, but bad luck, bad matchups (seriously, the Twins matched up terribly against the Yankees those years) and the players (see Hunter's mistake, hitting disappearing) share equal blame.

---The Twins of the 00's often lacked the most crucial ingredient to postseason success - starting pitching depth. Beyond Santana, they were starting guys like Boof Bonser, Brian Duensing and Nick Blackburn. That's fine for beating Kansas City in August, but beating the Yankees in October is a different story.

Injuries played a role as well. Morneau's absence in the last couple of series hurt - tough to win in October with your top run producer out.

As far as Gardy goes, I think the impact of the manager is too often overestimated. They get too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. Look at the Giants in 2010. That was Bruce Bochy's 16th year as a major league manager. He hadn't really been any more successful than Gardy to that point in his career, maybe even a little less so. Yet the Giants won the World Series. Was that because Bochy figured it out after a decade-and-a-half? Or do you think maybe having a pitching staff full of guys who would be aces on a lot of teams may have had something to do with it?

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-29-2012, 04:22 PM
---The Twins of the 00's often lacked the most crucial ingredient to postseason success - starting pitching depth. Beyond Santana, they were starting guys like Boof Bonser, Brian Duensing and Nick Blackburn. That's fine for beating Kansas City in August, but beating the Yankees in October is a different story.

Injuries played a role as well. Morneau's absence in the last couple of series hurt - tough to win in October with your top run producer out.

As far as Gardy goes, I think the impact of the manager is too often overestimated. They get too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. Look at the Giants in 2010. That was Bruce Bochy's 16th year as a major league manager. He hadn't really been any more successful than Gardy to that point in his career, maybe even a little less so. Yet the Giants won the World Series. Was that because Bochy figured it out after a decade-and-a-half? Or do you think maybe having a pitching staff full of guys who would be aces on a lot of teams may have had something to do with it?

I mean, for the first few playoff series they had Radke in the rotation as well, a 1-2 of Santana and Radke was pretty solid in my opinion. Also guys like Silva (when he was good!) Loshe and Liriano all got starts as well. Again not the greatest rotation ever, but a Santana/Radke led rotation was solid enough to match up with other teams. It's really a shame Liriano got hurt in 2006, that was the team to beat.

I agree on Gardy, though he prob deserves some of the blame since the Twins have lost 11 in a row in the playoffs or something like that. However, I don't think he should be fired or anything.

one_eyed_jack
06-29-2012, 04:36 PM
I mean, for the first few playoff series they had Radke in the rotation as well, a 1-2 of Santana and Radke was pretty solid in my opinion. Also guys like Silva (when he was good!) Loshe and Liriano all got starts as well. Again not the greatest rotation ever, but a Santana/Radke led rotation was solid enough to match up with other teams. It's really a shame Liriano got hurt in 2006, that was the team to beat.

I agree on Gardy, though he prob deserves some of the blame since the Twins have lost 11 in a row in the playoffs or something like that. However, I don't think he should be fired or anything.

---Yeah, Santana/Radke in the early part of the decade was a good 1-2 punch. In those years it always seemed like they were 1 big bat short of being a serious threat.

Agree on 2006, that was tough. Not only did Liriano get hurt, but Radke's pitching arm was barely attached to his body by the end of that year.

Maybe it's because it was the most recent, but to me 2010 was the most disappointing year. We had home field, time to set up our rotation the way we wanted, had a deep lineup, a great first season in a great new ballpark, it just seemed like it was going to be the year we finally broke through. We even had a 3-0 lead with Frankie cruising in Game 1 before it all went down the crapper.

Riverbrian
06-29-2012, 05:23 PM
Yeah, these were some interesting quotes hand-picked out of context. Self-deprecating is a good thing... Terry Ryan has proven he can handle this job. He's made good moves this year. We all know that this isn't a one-year fix. He's good.

Seth, There is no way that someone would take a sentence or two from multiple sentences... Condense those words and surround them with their own words and use them to make their own point. That's just crazy talk!!! The Words are directly from Terry Ryan himself!!!

Do you have a lynch mob on standby that can be notified!!!

TwinVike61
06-29-2012, 05:31 PM
Seth would take a sentence or two... Condense those words and surround them with their own words and use them to make crazy talk directly from Terry Ryan himself!!!

Wow, RiverBrian, you're right...it is easy to slander somebody...

John Bonnes
06-29-2012, 06:11 PM
Gardy deserves some blame, but bad luck, bad matchups (seriously, the Twins matched up terribly against the Yankees those years) and the players (see Hunter's mistake, hitting disappearing) share equal blame.

Blink. Blink. I couldn't agree more with this sentence. It's like we share DNA. Like we're brothers. The 2012 version of The Parent Trap begins on a bulletin board....

John Bonnes
06-29-2012, 06:24 PM
I'm not disagreeing that Smith was awful.

My point is that Ryan DID have something to do with how awful Smith was and how awful the Twins have been for the last two years. Ryan's not innocent, and Smith isn't completely to blame.

I was talking about this with the SABR guys last night.

As someone who was out of the organization but has a few contacts within it, and after seeing the ways Ryan has done things since becoming GM, I'm solidly in the camp that believes Ryan wasn't very influential - or even checked in - during the Smith regime.

Good leaders, when they turn over the reins but "stick around" do their utmost to NOT influence their successors - to give them a wide range and be as "absent" as possible. The new guy can't lead if everyone is still following the old guy. Ryan was, I think, a specialized scout (his true love) but one that didn't want to travel as much as a head scout might. And if he was in meetings where a big decision was made, I have to think he would consciously be the QUIETEST voice.

When Smith was running the show, if you heard grumbling going on in the organization, Ryan was never mentioned. Smith was running that show. And if you recall, when Ryan was named GM, he didn't even know what the budget was going to be - and that was a month into the offseason. Someone who is plugged into the organization's decisions has to know that stuff.

So I am very limited in directing blame towards Ryan for moves during the Smith regime.

FrodaddyG
06-29-2012, 06:27 PM
Blink. Blink. I couldn't agree more with this sentence. It's like we share DNA. Like we're brothers. The 2012 version of The Parent Trap begins on a bulletin board....
Cue Dave's suicide watch.... now.

John Bonnes
06-29-2012, 06:29 PM
Gems from Rob Neyer's twitter (https://twitter.com/robneyer) covering Ryans' speech. Actual quotes:

"I don't have the education. I don't have the intellect. I don't have the computer skills."
Ryan says Twins have struggled in Dominican Republic, and that it's his fault
"I haven't fixed a thing. We're exactly where we were last year."

This indicates to me that it is about time for the interim to resign and the Twins to actually get a GM who has the intellect, education and skills, to clear house on the organization from the top to the bottom and have this team compete in the 21st century. About freaking time...

I'm shocked - SHOCKED - to find that you think Terry Ryan should be fired. (Like this kinda shocked. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME) :D)

Thrylos, you know I respect the hell our of your passion and knowledge, but if you think anything about this is legitimate evidence, you know you're kidding yourself, right?

John Bonnes
06-29-2012, 06:38 PM
Cue Dave's suicide watch.... now.

I'm THERE for you, brother!

diehardtwinsfan
06-29-2012, 08:01 PM
Oh wow... at BYTO, this thread would have been moved to the other forum...

1) Ryan was at a SABR conference... He's a scouting guy. Those comments make perfect sense simply from that perspective. He has said in the past that the Twins have hired math guys to incorporate statistical analysis, but he freely admits to not being that guy... nothing wrong with that at all.

2) Are people seriously trying to argue that the Ramos/Capps trade was a push? Ramos could have never returned from his kidnapping this offseason and it would still be a heavy win for the Nats.

3) Like Dave and John said, Gardy deserves some blame here, but certainly not all. I look at 2004 in particular as that second game was horribly managed... but like others said, some of this is on the players too.

4) Ryan's big mistake in this org was that he had several crappy drafts leading up to his resignation. The organization was in a bit of a pinch. That said, I'd have much prefered he had handled the Santana negotiations, because as of right now, Santana netted us a decent relief prospect, John Rausch, a injury plagued season of JJ Hardy. Not many people were happy with that package, nor should they have been.

USAFChief
06-29-2012, 08:02 PM
I was talking about this with the SABR guys last night.

As someone who was out of the organization but has a few contacts within it, and after seeing the ways Ryan has done things since becoming GM, I'm solidly in the camp that believes Ryan wasn't very influential - or even checked in - during the Smith regime.

Good leaders, when they turn over the reins but "stick around" do their utmost to NOT influence their successors - to give them a wide range and be as "absent" as possible. The new guy can't lead if everyone is still following the old guy. Ryan was, I think, a specialized scout (his true love) but one that didn't want to travel as much as a head scout might. And if he was in meetings where a big decision was made, I have to think he would consciously be the QUIETEST voice.

When Smith was running the show, if you heard grumbling going on in the organization, Ryan was never mentioned. Smith was running that show. And if you recall, when Ryan was named GM, he didn't even know what the budget was going to be - and that was a month into the offseason. Someone who is plugged into the organization's decisions has to know that stuff.

So I am very limited in directing blame towards Ryan for moves during the Smith regime.

Great post.

Riverbrian
06-29-2012, 08:05 PM
Wow, RiverBrian, you're right...it is easy to slander somebody...

I just spit out my Grape Soda laughing. Plus One for you

Dilligaf69
06-29-2012, 08:12 PM
I don't know what Terry Ryan knows or wants to know or doesn't know about math or statistics. (I would suspect that is also true of almost everyone posting here.) I do know that anyone with sense can realize that the first quote has virtually nothing to do with Terry Ryan and almost everything to do with his audience and the forum in which it was said.


Yeah i judt think was kind of playing the room and poking fun at himself... you guys really think he would admit to all that in a public setting like that. I'm sure if we actually heard the soundbyte and the inflection or sarcasm in his voice most would have a different view, but again we all seem to take things so lterally and jump to baseless conclusions. Reminds me of rube chat and that's not a good thing.

Dilligaf69
06-29-2012, 08:15 PM
Gardy deserves some blame, but bad luck, bad matchups (seriously, the Twins matched up terribly against the Yankees those years) and the players (see Hunter's mistake, hitting disappearing) share equal blame.

Yeah the offense absolutely disapeared on '06' they were superior to the A's. A CY, MVP and batting champ and you get swept by the Oakland freakin A's!!! UGHHH! and yes Hunters misplay turned the series. Was'nt that the inning after the back to back HR's by the M&M boys that tied the score??

Dilligaf69
06-29-2012, 08:20 PM
And I find it VERY hard to blame Gardy or most managers in baseball it's the one sport IMO that coaching really is not all that necessary. If you look around the league most managers manage the same way. Staters for 6 hopefully 7 innings..bullpen..closer. Not rocket science to write out a lineup card and every manager not just Gardy doesn't always have their A lineup every day whether it be days off, injuries etc.. of course there are teams like the Yanks that always have deep rosters but really they stand on the step and watch the games for the most part. Mngrs simply are not as involved as other sports. How many skippers have the Royals and Rockies and some other teams gone thru over the yrs?? and look where they are most every yr. managing is SO overrated..again JMHO!

jctwins
06-29-2012, 08:47 PM
Why the hell would Ryan want to keep this job? Crappy hours, away from his family that he was just spending time with again, and an organization that's a mess. This will be a one, MAYBE two year deal, and he'll be back in retirement.

Does a GM get the MLB pension?

Nick Nelson
06-29-2012, 08:51 PM
Hey, Terry Ryan spoke publicly! Another opportunity to demand his resignation!

They should have Ben Affleck play thrylos in a skit. http://www.hulu.com/watch/42024

Vervehound
06-30-2012, 02:11 PM
Why the hell would Ryan want to keep this job? Crappy hours, away from his family that he was just spending time with again, and an organization that's a mess. This will be a one, MAYBE two year deal, and he'll be back in retirement.

Does a GM get the MLB pension?

considering they're not part of the players union...no.

jctwins
06-30-2012, 02:42 PM
considering they're not part of the players union...no.

are the managers and coaches in the players union? They get a pension based on years of service.

birdwatcher
06-30-2012, 02:43 PM
Ryan's comments reveal his humility, and his willingness to be self-deprecating and to admit faults. Thrylos, you could learn a lot from this man. He may lack "education", and some of you may be smarter, but his sensibility is admirable. And what an idiotic notion, MWW, that this organization resists "math and science". What they reject is the pompous attitude of superiority some of you possess, thinking that your spreadsheets and numbers present the picture.

My bet is that every single one of you numbers snoots were crucifying the Twins for trading away Billy Bullock, who threw 94, for Diamong, who threw 90. Every one of you. Guess what? You were wrong once again. The dinosaurs, despite their stupidity and backwardness, were right once more.

Riverbrian
06-30-2012, 02:51 PM
Ryan's comments reveal his humility, and his willingness to be self-deprecating and to admit faults. Thrylos, you could learn a lot from this man. He may lack "education", and some of you may be smarter, but his sensibility is admirable. And what an idiotic notion, MWW, that this organization resists "math and science". What they reject is the pompous attitude of superiority some of you possess, thinking that your spreadsheets and numbers present the picture.

My bet is that every single one of you numbers snoots were crucifying the Twins for trading away Billy Bullock, who threw 94, for Diamong, who threw 90. Every one of you. Guess what? You were wrong once again. The dinosaurs, despite their stupidity and backwardness, were right once more.

Recognition of failure in something is the first step in correcting it. If a man steps up to the mic and takes responsibility for something that isn't working right. That's a Man.

All in all, any comments he made have nothing to do with his ability to lead this organization.

The product on the field will be what he is ultimately judged on... Not his methods. He took over a squad in a hole. Let's see if the squad gets out of the hole. I think it's reasonable to think that it will take longer than the end of June.

Fire Dan Gladden
06-30-2012, 03:52 PM
Gems from Rob Neyer's twitter (https://twitter.com/robneyer) covering Ryans' speech. Actual quotes:

"I don't have the education. I don't have the intellect. I don't have the computer skills."

Ryan says Twins have struggled in Dominican Republic, and that it's his fault

"I haven't fixed a thing. We're exactly where we were last year."

This indicates to me that it is about time for the interim to resign and the Twins to actually get a GM who has the intellect, education and skills, to clear house on the organization from the top to the bottom and have this team compete in the 21st century.

About freaking time...

I think it's interesting that people automatically dismiss Terry Ryan for not completely following sabermetrics. I believe GMs did quite alright for decades without them. Seems to me there should be room for both rules of thought. Also, it seemed to work pretty well over the last decade. Just sayin...

Also, shame on Thrylos for taking sentences out of context and spinning them to make a point. Here let me try this for you Thrylos:

This indicates to me that... the... Twins... GM... has the intellect, education and skills, to...have this team compete in the 21st century.

Looks pretty good when I pluck and choose, eh?

Boom Boom
06-30-2012, 04:39 PM
I was talking about this with the SABR guys last night.

As someone who was out of the organization but has a few contacts within it, and after seeing the ways Ryan has done things since becoming GM, I'm solidly in the camp that believes Ryan wasn't very influential - or even checked in - during the Smith regime.

Good leaders, when they turn over the reins but "stick around" do their utmost to NOT influence their successors - to give them a wide range and be as "absent" as possible. The new guy can't lead if everyone is still following the old guy. Ryan was, I think, a specialized scout (his true love) but one that didn't want to travel as much as a head scout might. And if he was in meetings where a big decision was made, I have to think he would consciously be the QUIETEST voice.

When Smith was running the show, if you heard grumbling going on in the organization, Ryan was never mentioned. Smith was running that show. And if you recall, when Ryan was named GM, he didn't even know what the budget was going to be - and that was a month into the offseason. Someone who is plugged into the organization's decisions has to know that stuff.

So I am very limited in directing blame towards Ryan for moves during the Smith regime.

You're not wrong. But Smith didn't start with a clean slate. Ryan left him in a difficult position from the beginning.

Also, I think Smith takes too much heat. He didn't single-handedly drive this organization into the ground. I mentioned a couple moves Smith made that were pretty good - how about trading Bullock for Diamond? What about signing Miguel Sano?

My whole point wasn't to blame Ryan for everything, but the Twins are bad because of an organizational failure, not because of one bad GM's failure. There is plenty of blame to go around and it started during the first Ryan regime.

old nurse
06-30-2012, 05:46 PM
My whole point wasn't to blame Ryan for everything, but the Twins are bad because of an organizational failure, not because of one bad GM's failure. There is plenty of blame to go around and it started during the first Ryan regime.[/QUOTE]

The mistake of Ryan was to never figure out how to draft and develop pitchers. The pitching cupboard was pretty thin for the 2007 season. The prime time to trade Santana would have been at the trade deadline. Ryan's history of getting good value for his stars would have been a much better thing for the Twins than leaving it to the inexperience of Smith.