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YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-28-2012, 03:04 PM
He has a horrid .578 OPS and is leading the AL with 11 errors despite not even BEING with the team on opening day. Dozier hasn't spent an entire season at triple A and that's what he should be doing now. A retread like Casilla or someone with no potential like Ray Chang could play just as mediocre for the Twins in the meantime while Dozier develops.

shs_59
06-28-2012, 03:06 PM
Couldn't Agree More :)

Yes once we're "Officially" out of the race . I'd LOVE LOVE to see Pedro Florimon up here, and Dozier playing in Meaningful games @ AAA Rochester. He needs more AAA time Before its Too Late!

Lots of things to work on, and Defense isn't even one of them exactly.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-28-2012, 03:07 PM
Dozier has also accumulated -.8 WAR.

Nick Nelson
06-28-2012, 03:29 PM
Dozier is 25. He shouldn't need to develop in the minors anymore. Leave him in there for the rest of the year, let him try to figure things out, and if he can't then go a different direction in 2013. The alternative at this point is going back to Alexi Casilla, who in addition to being almost equally bad has no future with the organization.

gmarais66
06-28-2012, 03:30 PM
You people are amazing... Before they called Dozier up, everyone was upset, because he wasn't being called up, now everyone is complaining and saying he needs to be sent down... Dozier belongs with the Twins... He's a smart kid with a good mind for the game... This is where he needs to be to learn how to hit major league hitting... He's not going to learn that at Rochester.... And as is common with many rookies, he shows flashes of what his potential is, while other times he struggles.... By the end of the year I think he'll have settled in a will be playing more consistently, but it's a process... All of his growing pains this year will payoff next season...

Highabove
06-28-2012, 03:45 PM
I thought this was a rebuilding year. At such a time, you play your young players and let them take their lumps.

Mauerzy4Prez
06-28-2012, 03:48 PM
You people are amazing... Before they called Dozier up, everyone was upset, because he wasn't being called up, now everyone is complaining and saying he needs to be sent down... Dozier belongs with the Twins... He's a smart kid with a good mind for the game... This is where he needs to be to learn how to hit major league hitting... He's not going to learn that at Rochester.... And as is common with many rookies, he shows flashes of what his potential is, while other times he struggles.... By the end of the year I think he'll have settled in a will be playing more consistently, but it's a process... All of his growing pains this year will payoff next season...

Couldn't agree more with you gmarais... you can't have your cake and eat it too. Let's do Dozier a favor and let him continue to play ball... what difference is it going to make this season anyway? Let's not treat this guy like Parmelee and screw with his head so much that he doesn't even know where he is anymore, and just watch a young player grow and mature through adversity.

cr9617
06-28-2012, 03:57 PM
You people are amazing... Before they called Dozier up, everyone was upset, because he wasn't being called up, now everyone is complaining and saying he needs to be sent down... Dozier belongs with the Twins... He's a smart kid with a good mind for the game... This is where he needs to be to learn how to hit major league hitting... He's not going to learn that at Rochester.... And as is common with many rookies, he shows flashes of what his potential is, while other times he struggles.... By the end of the year I think he'll have settled in a will be playing more consistently, but it's a process... All of his growing pains this year will payoff next season...

I agree with this. Although, I wouldn't get your hopes up going forward. I don't see him as much more than a 2 or 3 year solution at SS. I hope I'm wrong...

John Bonnes
06-28-2012, 04:07 PM
I'm not ready to give up on him, and that's not the point of the thread. It says "he's not ready" and he's not.

I don't know whether you keep him up or send him down. I find his age irrelevant. The bottom line is you do what you think is best for the kid.

I find it troubling that he mostly struggled at AAA. It might be that a demotion to master things there is what he needs before he is fed to the sharks here. he doesn't SEEM like he's lost all confidence, but the (often bad) errors are the exact opposite of his reputation, so maybe his lack of hitting is getting to him a bit. I don't think I'm the one to best judge that. Hopefully the Twins have a better feel for how he's handling this than I do.

I'm still optimistic about the kid. I just think he's been pushed too fast. Which seems kind of silly considering they coudl pick up a utility infielder on waivers and have Casilla and Carroll handle the middle infield until he's ready.

Montecore
06-28-2012, 04:11 PM
A demotion is in order. You can't have a disaster at the key defensive position. And, he's practically an automatic out. Carrol at SS, Casilla at 2B.

Rosterman
06-28-2012, 04:19 PM
We can look at and rotate thru any number of other guys, but only so many open spots on the 40-man roster...like two. Is it worthwhile to give Holimon and Chang a look, and Florimon as a future reserve? The pain is when you play musical chairs, you also lose guys in the minors and need to sign others to replace them if they leave on their own or are claimed. And you ultimately want to put the effort and playing time into people who will also be given a chance next year, not just filling space this year. That's the upset with Casilla, will he be too expensive for what he brings to the Twins to even be considered for 2013. And Valenci, and Burroughs...and, forgive me, make a decision now on Toshi. Time to cut and eat salary, front office.

Winston Smith
06-28-2012, 04:20 PM
This one is on Gardy. He was a shortstop (being nice here) he is said to be a great coach and if that's the case Dozier should be in the right spot right under Gary's tutelage. He doesn't look ready, do we have better coaches in AAA that can work with him?

Brock Beauchamp
06-28-2012, 04:23 PM
I'm a Dozier supporter and I think he'll pull through it. With that said, I didn't like the promotion in the first place. If a kid is struggling at AAA, it doesn't make much sense to put him in the majors and hope that he sorts it out against major league pitching.

But now that he's here and the Twins are awful, I don't see much point in sending him down. It's not as if his awful play is affecting the outcome of the season.

Thrylos
06-28-2012, 04:35 PM
Let him play and let Casilla play and have Carroll as the back up. This team is not going anywhere... They need to give the younger players some time to see whether they are part of the problem or the solution in intermediate/short term.

wavedog
06-28-2012, 04:40 PM
I would only send him down if the team wanted to bring Florimon up and see what he can do at the major league level. I really don't mind Dozier taking his lumps up here this year as the season is a lost cause anyway.

one_eyed_jack
06-28-2012, 04:50 PM
I'd keep him up and let him develop here. Yeah, his numbers aren't great, but there have definitely been flashes of good with the bad.

I'd feel differently if he looked overwhelmed and confused like Nishioka usually did last year.

shs_59
06-28-2012, 04:57 PM
I'm a Dozier supporter and I think he'll pull through it. With that said, I didn't like the promotion in the first place. If a kid is struggling at AAA, it doesn't make much sense to put him in the majors and hope that he sorts it out against major league pitching.

But now that he's here and the Twins are awful, I don't see much point in sending him down. It's not as if his awful play is affecting the outcome of the season.

Agreed entirely :)

well done.

And to Gmarais66 or whoever responded to my first post. I was Not one of them clammoring for Dozier to be in the Big Leagues....I thought he should of Been in Rochester untill mid-season or even Late July anyways.

The Greatest Poster Alive
06-28-2012, 05:36 PM
He was probably here too early, but let him keep hacking. Despite his struggles he has more extra base hits than ben revere.

DPJ
06-28-2012, 05:54 PM
Middling prospect.

TheLeviathan
06-28-2012, 06:02 PM
The reason to send Dozier down is to help him. If he's struggling here and potentially taking those struggles with him into the field, it's going to wear on his confidence a bit. People are arguing to let him stay up because the team is struggling, I'd argue that's precisely why we shouldn't care if we send him down and play some scrub. Dozier is potentially an important piece of this team going forward - send him down for a month, let him have some success, work on some things in AAA, and come back up after the deadline.

Ben Revere may be a good model for this idea I guess.

DPJ
06-28-2012, 06:05 PM
Ben Revere may be a good model for this idea I guess.


I know this was painful to type.

Kobs
06-28-2012, 06:11 PM
Ben Revere may be a good model for this idea I guess.

This season has the potential to really mess with this team for the next few years. I fully expect the Twins to go into 2013 thinking that Revere will bat .325 and Plouffe will hit 40 homers.

TheLeviathan
06-28-2012, 06:12 PM
I know this was painful to type.

God yes. So far a lot of crow-eating on the Revere front. Guy is really making solid contact - never thought I'd say that.

spideyo
06-28-2012, 07:04 PM
This season has the potential to really mess with this team for the next few years. I fully expect the Twins to go into 2013 thinking that Revere will bat .325 and Plouffe will hit 40 homers.

Kinda like how Valencia's Rookie year made us think we had a .300 hitter at the Hot Corner for the next decade? Or how Slowey circa. 2008 made the team think they had a solid #2 or #3 starter for the next few years?

USAFChief
06-28-2012, 07:34 PM
I can't see any benefit to shipping Dozier back to Rochester. As long as he's playing almost every day, there isn't really anything to be learned there that can't be learned in the big leagues, and keeping him here has little to no effect on the Twins' season. Let him play. Maybe he won't figure it out, maybe he will, but he can start to prove that one way or another in Minneapolis.

GCTF
06-28-2012, 07:41 PM
This season has the potential to really mess with this team for the next few years. I fully expect the Twins to go into 2013 thinking that Revere will bat .325 and Plouffe will hit 40 homers.

Numbers lie a lot," Gardenhire told the Pioneer Press

Riverbrian
06-28-2012, 07:55 PM
My head is spinning... So much to respond to in this thread.

1. Sending Revere down to AAA did not produce the Ben Revere we are seeing now. Ben puts the ball in play and is freeky fast. That's why he hits over .300 all the time. He's not chasing and pitchers are not afraid of him so he gets good pitches to hit. He's a good hitter... He's just not a power hitter. When the pitches start getting trickier... He will walk more. Revere will be just fine until Hicks or Buxton come to town. I'll never understand how anyone doesn't love having Revere wear a Twins jersey.

2. No reason to send Dozier down unless you feel the guy is standing in the way of a division title this year or you are sure that Free Agent SS X is going to be manning the SS Position next year. Otherwise... There is no one else more ready for his job. Carroll is a baseball player but he's also 83 years old.

3. Plouffe will regress because no one can stay that hot. However because of how dialed in he was. Of course he will playing 3B for awhile. It would take a pretty special idiot not to put him in the line up after witnessing what he showed he was capable of. Plouffe just needs to swing at pitches he can drive and quit going after what the pitcher wants him to hit. Hopefully he learned what he can accomplish by doing just that. A streak like that can do amazing things for young players. It fills them up with a bunch of "I can do this" juice.

Badsmerf
06-28-2012, 08:03 PM
Dozier has no business in AAA. The Twins don't have another SS option (unless you count Florimon) until Daniel Santana and Levi Michael. You have to give a player time before sending him back down. Revere and even Valencia are different cases. Revere wasn't playing everyday and wasn't able to make adjustments. Valencia was just being complacent and not producing (plus Plouffe needed a look). Let Dozier continue to have consistent AB's, he already showed potential when he first came up, now he just needs to adjust. It takes young players time.

Pius Jefferson
06-28-2012, 08:10 PM
His spot in the order might not matter but would Dozier benefit from hitting 2nd between Span and Mauer?

clutterheart
06-28-2012, 08:11 PM
Maybe the scouts were right and he can't play SS in the majors?

diehardtwinsfan
06-28-2012, 08:19 PM
of all the pieces of consternation, I'm not sure why this is here. Like Pig said, AAA, MN, it doesn't matter. The kid needs to play every day. As well, there are a few decent MI prospects sitting with the 2014/15 teams that will likely bump Dozier during his expensive years, as such, let him play. If he turns into a star, he blocks those kids, otherwise, he becomes some nice trade bait. '

This season is lost, so why people are worried about Brian is beyond me. They have to give him a look. My greater concern is that they are letting Parmalee wither on the bench. That kid needs to play every day too, and quite frankly, I could care less whether it's in MN or in Rochester... My other concern is that there's so little decent starting pitching in this organization to help with the next wave... not a good place to be in.

Bark's Lounge
06-28-2012, 08:42 PM
My greater concern is that they are letting Parmalee wither on the bench. That kid needs to play every day too, and quite frankly, I could care less whether it's in MN or in Rochester...

Parmelee must have broke some kind of organizational rule when he was is Rochester. His call up seems more like a punishment than a reward for good performance at AAA - he never plays. All the batting problems that he righted in AAA are probably down the ****ter because of his non existent appearances on the field of play... what a shame.

TheLeviathan
06-28-2012, 10:27 PM
My head is spinning... So much to respond to in this thread.

1. Sending Revere down to AAA did not produce the Ben Revere we are seeing now. Ben puts the ball in play and is freeky fast. That's why he hits over .300 all the time.

Ben did some work with the AAA hitting coach and watched some film while he was sent down which he has attributed to making better contact and increasing his ability to hit line-drives. He worked on that in AAA, came back up, and was able to deliver similar results so far. I guess you can make stuff up or defer to the player.

Sometimes if a player needs to work on something or improve their approach it helps to do that against the Jeff Manships of the world rather than Chris Sale.

Riverbrian
06-28-2012, 11:15 PM
Ben did some work with the AAA hitting coach and watched some film while he was sent down which he has attributed to making better contact and increasing his ability to hit line-drives. He worked on that in AAA, came back up, and was able to deliver similar results so far. I guess you can make stuff up or defer to the player.

Sometimes if a player needs to work on something or improve their approach it helps to do that against the Jeff Manships of the world rather than Chris Sale.

Seriously... Are you under the impression that I believe Ben Revere went down to AAA had a snickers bar and Played X-box in his hotel room until game time. They watch film in the big leagues as well. No need to go to Rochester for that. I'm sure that Bruno helped and I'm sure Vavra would have been there for him as well. (although the Vavra bashers are lining up for a piece of me now).

He adjusted his hands higher and this got him in the load position quicker. BTW... It was Ben who spotted it on film... Not Bruno. However, even with his hands low... He still made incredible contact and was still freeky fast and he consistently hits over .300 at every level with the only exception being his rookie year last year. And ladies and gentlemen... That was his first taste of consistently facing the Chris Sales of the world.

I'm intrigued... You have my attention... I'm always willing to learn from the masters. Please go on and explain how his 101 PA in AAA and one extra base hit transformed him into the beautiful MLB swan today.

Seth Stohs
06-29-2012, 12:17 AM
I'm a huge believer in Dozier... When he was called up, I was clamoring for Ray Chang at that time. Dozier was slumping. I would rather they have waited a month to see how he was doing at that time. But I've still seen a guy with generally a good glove. I definitely think he has both the range and the arm to play big league SS. He's definitely got all of the intangibles. I won't pretend to know whether the right thing to do for him is to send him down for 6-8 weeks or to let him work through it with the Twins. This is a rebuilding season, in my opinion, so I'm all for doing whatever they think is the best. Also, I don't care that he's 25. He just turned 25. I'm not saying he'll be a star. I've never said that. But I do think that he can be a very solid major leaguer. If anyone thought he'd be more than that, it's not his fault.

glunn
06-29-2012, 12:26 AM
I think that a trip back to AAA might give Dozier a less stressful route to improving his skills. But maybe the people who say that he can do this at the MLB level are correct. Either way, I would like to see Florimon eventually get a chance, even if only as a September call up.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-29-2012, 12:43 AM
You people are amazing... Before they called Dozier up, everyone was upset, because he wasn't being called up, now everyone is complaining and saying he needs to be sent down... Dozier belongs with the Twins... He's a smart kid with a good mind for the game... This is where he needs to be to learn how to hit major league hitting... He's not going to learn that at Rochester.... And as is common with many rookies, he shows flashes of what his potential is, while other times he struggles.... By the end of the year I think he'll have settled in a will be playing more consistently, but it's a process... All of his growing pains this year will payoff next season...

I just love how you generalize everyone with that statement. I've held strong to the belief that Dozier should be in AAA before the callup. It was an exciting move at the time to get the fans energized about a new SS, but Dozier has been a complete disappointment and this shouldn't come as a shocker. Currently, he is the worst regular shortstop in the MLB on both sides of the ball. He moved quickly through the minors and I feel like he has finally become overwhelmed on the big stage.

TheLeviathan
06-29-2012, 07:48 AM
I'm sure that Bruno helped and I'm sure Vavra would have been there for him as well. (although the Vavra bashers are lining up for a piece of me now).

You may be right. And if you want to drop the hostility angle you might find this isn't that radical of a suggestion I'm making. Revere, in the very article you're reading from, credits the AAA coaching. He also credits getting regular at-bats and his own film work. So it was some of all of that. You can play make-believe about what might have happened, but what DID happen was the send-down to AAA was good for him for a variety of reasons.

But whether you want to get hung-up on Revere or not, major league teams do this all the time. Whether it is rehab assignments, prospects, or even Adam Lind-types. AAA is a less pressure-filled environment, against lesser competition that players can go to work on their game. Teams can make suggestions to them and help them work on specific parts of their game without all the scrutiny that comes with the big league.

I'm merely suggesting that Dozier is looking worse and worse. His at-bats are not getting better and his fielding is not getting better. Is he the type that a demotion would be irrelevant for? Maybe, but it's hard to see a player regressing and think that the current model is the right way. The Twins shouldn't care about this season and should care about any player that could be helping them in 3 years. Dozier fits that and I'd hate to see them keep him up here at his detriment.

Sometimes "just figure it out" becomes hard when the level of competition is difficult no matter how on your game you are. A break and a chance to focus may benefit him, all I'm saying. Chill.

Brock Beauchamp
06-29-2012, 09:36 AM
Maybe the scouts were right and he can't play SS in the majors?

Not likely. It was questioned whether he could stay at short because of his arm. His range is generally referenced as being average to slightly above average. His hands and his instinct were his selling points as a defender.

Those two things have been his biggest problems during this stint in Minnesota, which makes me think he's just suffering from rookie jitters, taking failures at the plate out to the field and vice versa. It's a vicious circle and hopefully, it's one he will overcome with experience.

Vervehound
06-29-2012, 09:40 AM
tk used to say that you don't know what you have in a player till you give him 2000 at bats. most of us would find that laughable - that's four full seasons before you cut bait. but the premise there is right - you need to give a guy a chance to adapt at this level and play through it or you're no closer to knowing what you have than before you called him up. this season is a grind and most seem to forget about that on a regular basis.

i'm a big fan of theo epstein and would've been stoked beyond belief if he'd have taken over for billy bob. his theory that there are no 4a players, just guys that haven't had enough ab's/ip's in the majors has merit and he's proved it with bryan lahair this year.

DPJ
06-29-2012, 10:04 AM
tk used to say that you don't know what you have in a player till you give him 2000 at bats.


David Ortiz-1696 at-bats as a Twin

DPJ
06-29-2012, 10:07 AM
i'm a big fan of theo epstein and would've been stoked beyond belief if he'd have taken over for billy bob. his theory that there are no 4a players, just guys that haven't had enough ab's/ip's in the majors has merit and he's proved it with bryan lahair this year.

Name me one other play who went from being labeled a AAAA player to a viable starting MLB player during the Epstein regime in either Boston or Chicago?

Just cause LaHair came up and did something nice for the Cubs doesn't change the fact that there's player good enough to dominate AAA and suck balls in the majors.

CDog
06-29-2012, 10:15 AM
tk used to say that you don't know what you have in a player till you give him 2000 at bats.

Semi-sure the number he would use was 1000. Not all that unlikely that he may have used different numbers at different times. But 1000 is what I've heard.

BobH
06-29-2012, 10:23 AM
God yes. So far a lot of crow-eating on the Revere front. Guy is really making solid contact - never thought I'd say that.

Doesn't this indicate how important good coaching is?
If Bruno can get Revere hitting like this, shouldn't we be looking more at the coaching of these young players, rather than criticizing their performance?
Once they are up with the Twins, it seems like it's "ok kid, show me what you got", rather than "ok kid, here's what you should do".

DPJ
06-29-2012, 10:36 AM
If Bruno can get Revere hitting like this


Since when is Bruno the one who got Revere hitting?

Mauerzy4Prez
06-29-2012, 10:41 AM
The bring up another guy to see what he can do, while Dozier gets development against lower talent in AAA argument seems a little backwards to me. Weren't we making the same argument for Dozier when he was in AAA? I remember multiple threads and posts on here saying that we need to bring him up and see what he can do. Now that he is up here and scuffling a bit, people knee jerk and want to send him down?! Won't we just end up saying the same thing about the guy we call up to replace him in two months?! I.e. Florimon is struggling after some early success, he needs to spend more time in AAA to develop.

I could be wrong, but it just seems like we are discussing the same point that we were a few months ago for the Bull Dozier....

Riverbrian
06-29-2012, 11:20 AM
You may be right. And if you want to drop the hostility angle you might find this isn't that radical of a suggestion I'm making. Revere, in the very article you're reading from, credits the AAA coaching. He also credits getting regular at-bats and his own film work. So it was some of all of that. You can play make-believe about what might have happened, but what DID happen was the send-down to AAA was good for him for a variety of reasons.

But whether you want to get hung-up on Revere or not, major league teams do this all the time. Whether it is rehab assignments, prospects, or even Adam Lind-types. AAA is a less pressure-filled environment, against lesser competition that players can go to work on their game. Teams can make suggestions to them and help them work on specific parts of their game without all the scrutiny that comes with the big league.

I'm merely suggesting that Dozier is looking worse and worse. His at-bats are not getting better and his fielding is not getting better. Is he the type that a demotion would be irrelevant for? Maybe, but it's hard to see a player regressing and think that the current model is the right way. The Twins shouldn't care about this season and should care about any player that could be helping them in 3 years. Dozier fits that and I'd hate to see them keep him up here at his detriment.

Sometimes "just figure it out" becomes hard when the level of competition is difficult no matter how on your game you are. A break and a chance to focus may benefit him, all I'm saying. Chill.

First off... No Hostility from me at all... I just wanted you to slide furthur out on that thin branch you so willingly sprung and clung to. We will spend some time learning about each other I assume but I'm generally a good guy with strong opinions. Wrong Frequently but I don't know the exact moments that I am just like everyone else. This site has been infused with some energy of late and I think it's great. Welcome aboard... I am detecting a slight substance of troll dripping off your posts. The results aren't back from the lab yet so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

You do realize when you say... "I can make things up" and "I can play make believe" that it could cause a retort. Now I appreciate you talking slow and using easy to understand words for me with your explanation of AAA 101 in your latest post but can we advance the conversation a little. I do get AAA so that will save us some time. :p

The question I asked you was... How did Ben's 101 PA in AAA and one extra base hit transform him into the beautiful MLB swan today? I don't consider a recap on AAA an answer to that question. Your explanation was for Adam Lind.

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same article or not. I remember reading a couple of them about him moving his hands higher and working on it with Tom Brunansky in Rochester. He worked on it in Rochester with Tom because he was in Rochester. That adjustment could happen at the MLB level with Joe Vavra just as easy. Especially since it was Ben who spotted it(if i remember right and I think I do).

Even with his hands lower... which I admit I wasn't noticing or concerning myself with in 2011 or the start of 2012. He still made contact at a very impressive rate. You couple that contact rate with his speed and you have a valuable talented major league ballplayer. Having his hands higher... eliminates extra movement in his swing and eliminating extra movement can lead to a better at-bats but he was doing pretty good prior.

I have said all along that Ben should have never been sent down. He should have been starting in LF from the 2012 get go. In his 28 MLB at bats in April. He didn't strike out once... He puts the ball in play more consistently then anyone on the Twins Roster and that is still true today and it was true last year as well. Not only on the Twins Roster but almost everyone in the Major Leagues.

The only thing about the trip to AAA that was good was that he got to play everyday. Sending him down was unnecessary... He was doing what Ben Revere does last year and it's the only time he hit below .300 in his career and it was his first time facing Verlander and Weaver and the best of the best. Give the kid a break. Don't assume that Brunansky fixed him. He wasn't broken. Coaches get too much credit and too much blame. It's up to the player.

Also, if a reporter or columnist or internet blogger asks a kid a question like "How was your experience in Rochester and how did it help you" because that's the angle they are working on... What is a kid supposed to say... "It was a freeking waste of time! Bruno worked with me and it was like every other experience with a batting coach". He's going to say the things he said because anything else would be torn apart.

He would have fixed his hands regardless of where he was at. The kid has hit over .300 at every level. He has speed that is comparable to Giancarlo(Mike or whatever) Stanton's Power. That's best in class... He gives it everything he has. He belongs on the Twins. If you guys want Power... Look elsewhere... It isn't Ben. In my opinion, he's the most exciting ball player on this team currently. You can win with Ben in your lineup. Now just get some freeking Pitching to help him out.

Vervehound
06-29-2012, 11:34 AM
Name me one other play who went from being labeled a AAAA player to a viable starting MLB player during the Epstein regime in either Boston or Chicago?

Just cause LaHair came up and did something nice for the Cubs doesn't change the fact that there's player good enough to dominate AAA and suck balls in the majors.

he made this statement this past offseason so i'm not sure if you should go back over the course of his tenure to grade it but i'm guessing the realization came from inheriting a guy like millar, picking up a guy like ortiz or jason bay who had similarities in their pasts, taking a gamble on jeremy hermida who could've paid big dividends or sticking with a guy like youkilis who many prospect followers labeled a 4a type.

Vervehound
06-29-2012, 11:51 AM
Semi-sure the number he would use was 1000. Not all that unlikely that he may have used different numbers at different times. But 1000 is what I've heard.

i'd be curious to know - i a bit of a web search but couldn't find anything pertinent. the reason i remember the 2000 number is because i felt it was outlandish and i got a bit exasperated. i believe the conversation was about rivas and guzman at that time, hence the my dyspeptic reaction.

CDog
06-29-2012, 12:35 PM
i'd be curious to know - i a bit of a web search but couldn't find anything pertinent. the reason i remember the 2000 number is because i felt it was outlandish and i got a bit exasperated. i believe the conversation was about rivas and guzman at that time, hence the my dyspeptic reaction.

I just did a search now on something like, "Tom Kelly at bats" and then added a few different versions of "to know about a player" after that and got several hits that included the 1000 number. All of those, however, were simply from blogs where people stated it much the same way that you and I have, and not official quotes. I also included 1000 in the search and found just a few more blog type entries than before with that number, and using 2000 in the search didn't result in any. File the preceding in "wasting time on trivial things over lunch break" file.

TheLeviathan
06-29-2012, 12:49 PM
The question I asked you was... How did Ben's 101 PA in AAA and one extra base hit transform him into the beautiful MLB swan today? I don't consider a recap on AAA an answer to that question. Your explanation was for Adam Lind.

Clearly Revere is a touchy subject for you. Accusing me of trolling is cute, but here's the article (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/157967695.html). Everything I've said comes directly from there, directly from Revere. If you want to claim yourself as a greater expert on Revere's improvements than Ben Revere himself....well that's on you. I'm done derailing the thread on this example.

You can pick Liam hendricks, Torii Hunter, any of hundreds of other players who have spent full-time in the majors, struggled, were sent down to work on things, and called back up. I'm not arguing it is 100% fool-proof - just that it's a perfectly reasonable option. I wasn't in the camp of rushing him up to the majors either. My beef is with the notion that we do this "because the team is bad anyway". To me that is irrelevant - we should all agree on that. The reason to send Dozier down is if it's best for Dozier and his future. I see a player who just cannot get it together in the field or at the plate. As RP said - he's not even doing the things well that he should be doing well, much less making progress. If anything, he is reverting.

To me that screams of a player needing a mental break - send him down and take the pressure off. Work on him on a few specific things, and call him back up again this year. This is not a revolutionary idea. I'm not claiming it's the only thing that will work. Just my opinion based on how badly Dozier looks lately.

mike wants wins
06-29-2012, 01:18 PM
Dozier is not ready, but I don't care. This team is not competing this year. They should just let him sit up here with their MLB coaches and trainers and get better here. I have no interest in Casilla playing, he's proven that he's not good. Some bizarre switch could happen, but it's not likely given this much time, and this many at bats.

stringer bell
06-29-2012, 01:45 PM
Maybe the scouts were right and he can't play SS in the majors?It seems to me that Dozier has made all the plays and not really struggled in making them. He has also not made all the plays, making errors fielding and throwing on routine and not routine plays. Maybe he isn't as focused as he should be or is rushing more than he needs to, but his defense has been substandard despite having the tools to be a very good defender.

Mr. Ed
06-29-2012, 02:00 PM
Dozier is not ready, but I don't care. This team is not competing this year. They should just let him sit up here with their MLB coaches and trainers and get better here. I have no interest in Casilla playing, he's proven that he's not good. Some bizarre switch could happen, but it's not likely given this much time, and this many at bats.

Thank you. NO Dozier isn't as ready as hoped, but why play anyone else? They don't have the talent ready to compete, despite the Games Back in this division. The Twins need to be evaluating for the long haul.

A return to AAA then the bigs has jump-started Revere. Proving that they could let Span go. Of course, that means someone has to play RF.

Such a glaring lack of upper-level depth in this org.

Riverbrian
06-29-2012, 02:49 PM
Clearly Revere is a touchy subject for you. Accusing me of trolling is cute, but here's the article (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/157967695.html). Everything I've said comes directly from there, directly from Revere. If you want to claim yourself as a greater expert on Revere's improvements than Ben Revere himself....well that's on you. I'm done derailing the thread on this example.

You can pick Liam hendricks, Torii Hunter, any of hundreds of other players who have spent full-time in the majors, struggled, were sent down to work on things, and called back up. I'm not arguing it is 100% fool-proof - just that it's a perfectly reasonable option. I wasn't in the camp of rushing him up to the majors either. My beef is with the notion that we do this "because the team is bad anyway". To me that is irrelevant - we should all agree on that. The reason to send Dozier down is if it's best for Dozier and his future. I see a player who just cannot get it together in the field or at the plate. As RP said - he's not even doing the things well that he should be doing well, much less making progress. If anything, he is reverting.

To me that screams of a player needing a mental break - send him down and take the pressure off. Work on him on a few specific things, and call him back up again this year. This is not a revolutionary idea. I'm not claiming it's the only thing that will work. Just my opinion based on how badly Dozier looks lately.

No I'd say that not recognizing the slant of an article is on you. Lord knows that Sid Hartman is never slanted in his approach to his work. Again, what is a kid supposed to say when posed with a question. You can follow the gospel of Sid's framing but that is on you. Sid makes it sound like his .278 in 18 at bats in April is testiment to the struggling youngster and his .314 is testiment to a player that has arrived. Does anyone remember April. We had 4 guys hitting, Willingham, Span, Mauer and Casilla. .278 is pretty damn good... It was 18 at bats... Everyone else was pretty much in the tank.

Look at Ben's minor league stats... How Consistent do you want him to be before realizing what he is and it looks like you can count on it... Rookie, A, A+, AA, AAA... It's says the same thing every year... Putting the ball in play and hitting over .300 without fail. Last year... It was .267... Against the best of the best for the first time and he still put the ball in play...

The Kid gets pitches to hit because no pitcher worth his salt wants to walk him... And he hits them. Hands Low... Hands High... Hands wherever... His contract rate is consistent. He isn't going to walk much because pitchers don't want to walk him and he isn't going to turn into Adam Dunn.

This kid did not need to be sent down and a minor hand adjustment is just run of the mill stuff that can be made at any level... No matter how Sid Hartman tries to sell his article with his Eureka point.

I wouldn't say that Ben Revere is a touchy subject... A year long crusade is a better way to describe it because it completely eludes me why others can't see it. The Kid is gifted and a gift. Bruno didn't fix him... Vavra didn't fix him... He's always been here.

As for Dozier... I agree with you and I don't... How's that for wishy washy... He's inconsistent... There are times when he looks great and times when he doesn't... I think the jury is still sequestered on the future of Brian Dozier. I just don't know who you replace him with. Carroll is clearly a better baseball player right now but he is 38 years old and would be a better fit on a team that is contending and not building for the future. If the Twins are building for the Future... Why not give a 25 year old SS that you like a shot.

Now if he's having confidence issues... Perhaps then you send him down so he doesn't get demoralized. I would think that Gardy would be in tune with that and would send him down at the slightest hint of it. So if he's competing and his head is on straight... Let's see what you got... It may turn out that he isn't a major league guy... Let's find out sooner if we can so we can get ready for the next young guy.

TheLeviathan
06-29-2012, 03:13 PM
No matter how Sid Hartman tries to sell his article with his Eureka point.

So I read direct quotes from Ben Revere. Reference those direct quotes for my point. You suggest the direct quotes are wrong and you have the right answer. And I'm the one that may be trolling? Me thinks I got suckered here.

Again, I'll take Ben Revere as more of an expert on his experiences than you. No offense.



I just don't know who you replace him with.

That's precisely my point.....why should it matter? The team sucks either way. What matters is whatever is best for Dozier. I don't see him making any progress. In fact, I see him making mistakes he wasn't making when he first came up. I'm merely suggesting it may benefit him, and ultimately the Twins, to send him down for a few weeks and let him get his stuff back together. Tweak a few things, let him have some success, and bring him back fairly quickly. But right now this doesn't seem to be helping him.

The analogy that comes to mind is trying to teach someone a backstroke while they're worried about drowning. Take him out of the 12 foot area for awhile, let him get the backstroke down again in the shallow end, and then throw his butt back in the deep-end. Right now Dozier just looks to me like he's flailing in the deep end. I don't see how that does him any good.

twinzgrl
06-29-2012, 03:25 PM
If ever there was a year to let someone play and see where it takes them, this is that year. That is why IMO Dozier should just stay and play for the Twins. He looked so good when he first came up, and I still see that level of play from him on occasion. If he would be helped by going down, well, that is what they pay the professional coaching staff to decide.

On the Revere debate, I never understood why Thomas, Komatsu, and Mastroianni were brought in to play in front of Ben. It's not like we're in a pennant race. Let him play and figure it out. AAA doesn't seem to be helping Danny.

Riverbrian
06-29-2012, 04:03 PM
So I read direct quotes from Ben Revere. Reference those direct quotes for my point. You suggest the direct quotes are wrong and you have the right answer. And I'm the one that may be trolling? Me thinks I got suckered here.

Again, I'll take Ben Revere as more of an expert on his experiences than you. No offense.



Uncle... You are right!!!

Brunansky obviously fixed him and his one month in AAA hitting nothing but singles like he had done consistently before... year after year set him on the path to glory. That month in AAA was obviously the tonic needed to save him from the terrible slump of hitting .278 in 18 at bats in April.

Now his stats are perfectly aligned with the stats he always produced... Thank God... There is clear Sid Hartman defined reason and now everyone can sleep at night knowing that Ben Revere didn't just sneak up on some of you.

Without that trip to AAA... He would have been lost forever. No doubt about it...

Thank God, Sid was there to ask that important question of "What did you work on in Rochester with Tom Brunansky that has made you such a great hitter in your return?" and "What do you think of my old friend Tom Brunansky?" and Here's a certificate to Murray's... Go have a butterknife Steak".

I'm gonna have to start reading this Sid Hartman guy more often!!! It's clearly my fault.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-29-2012, 04:33 PM
Uncle... You are right!!!

Brunansky obviously fixed him and his one month in AAA hitting nothing but singles like he had done consistently before... year after year set him on the path to glory. That month in AAA was obviously the tonic needed to save him from the terrible slump of hitting .278 in 18 at bats in April.

Now his stats are perfectly aligned with the stats he always produced... Thank God... There is clear Sid Hartman defined reason and now everyone can sleep at night knowing that Ben Revere didn't just sneak up on some of you.

Without that trip to AAA... He would have been lost forever. No doubt about it...

Thank God, Sid was there to ask that important question of "What did you work on in Rochester with Tom Brunansky that has made you such a great hitter in your return?" and "What do you think of my old friend Tom Brunansky?" and Here's a certificate to Murray's... Go have a butterknife Steak".

I'm gonna have to start reading this Sid Hartman guy more often!!! It's clearly my fault.

While I am enjoying this argument, I'd like to point out that the comparison between Dozier and Revere is completely bogus. Revere has been flip flopping between AAA and the MLB for some time now and it hasn't been ONE short stint that you can attribute to his changes as a player. Dozier hasn't had the AAA time Revere has had and it makes sense that he gets some before he's actually tested in the majors. You need to start playing "Mary Had a Little Lamb" before you move on to Bach or Beethoven. In a more extreme sense, why not bring Buxton up to the MLB because this season is lost? No, because he is not ready and hasn't ascended the steps a minor league system has in place properly. Dozier is not a top prospect and doesn't have the talent to handle a jump between AA and the MLB. I really don't like the age argument, because I think players move on their own timelines.

TheLeviathan
06-29-2012, 04:37 PM
I'm gonna have to start reading this Sid Hartman guy more often!!! It's clearly my fault.

Yowza. Henceforth I will make sure to dismiss all Ben Revere quotes as steak-induced lies. I'll be sure to consult you for the truth since Ben Revere can't make up his own mind.

Noted and then some......

TheLeviathan
06-29-2012, 04:39 PM
In a more extreme sense, why not bring Buxton up to the MLB because this season is lost? No, because he is not ready and hasn't ascended the steps a minor league system has in place properly.

Just make sure if you ask him about his work in the minor leagues that he hasn't been enticed with grape soda, butter-knife steaks, or deep-friend stuff on a stick. Because, in that case, even direct quotes are nothing but delicious lies.

But thank you for injecting a little more common sense into the argument. The Twins should do whats right for Dozier first - whatever that is. The status of the team isn't a free pass to just shove guys on to the field no matter their readiness.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-29-2012, 04:47 PM
Uncle... You are right!!!

Brunansky obviously fixed him and his one month in AAA hitting nothing but singles like he had done consistently before... year after year set him on the path to glory. That month in AAA was obviously the tonic needed to save him from the terrible slump of hitting .278 in 18 at bats in April.


Just because a player has hit .300 throughout his minors career, doesn't mean they will automatically hit .300 when they reach the majors. I agree Brunansky didn't do anything for Revere and he should have been on the opening day roster. Brunansky may not do anything for Dozier either, but at least give him some reasonable competition to fare against. Again, I don't like Revere and Dozier being compared because Revere is an athletic freak and a first round pick.

I'll also never understand why many people love Dozier's defense so much. It's not acceptable to have a consistent E6 on the box.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-29-2012, 04:49 PM
Just make sure if you ask him about his work in the minor leagues that he hasn't been enticed with grape soda, butter-knife steaks, or deep-friend stuff on a stick. Because, in that case, even direct quotes are nothing but delicious lies.

But thank you for injecting a little more common sense into the argument. The Twins should do whats right for Dozier first - whatever that is. The status of the team isn't a free pass to just shove guys on to the field no matter their readiness.

No thank you. I have enjoyed your previous posts for the most part.

TheLeviathan
06-29-2012, 04:51 PM
The Revere comp was merely to suggest that it isn't the end of the world to send someone down. Sometimes they come back up better prepared. There are literally hundreds of examples of this, I just picked a hitter they did that with this year. Even if the send-down did nothing for Revere - it's still an option that isn't going to kill Dozier to try.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-29-2012, 04:58 PM
Parmelee may have been a decent comparison because he too hasn't done anything at the AAA level. I say 'may' because the Twins don't play him and we don't have any clue how/if anything is different.

TheLeviathan
06-29-2012, 05:01 PM
Parmelee may have been a decent comparison because he too hasn't done anything at the AAA level. I say 'may' because the Twins don't play him and we don't have any clue how/if anything is different.

Let's hope he's sent down soon - I think most Twins fans agree about the lack of logic keeping him up. That's the organization's biggest issue - depth at the top. Dozier is going to have his chance at this spot for quite some time, no one is going to come pushing from the minors anytime soon. There is no rush to audition him now, no future auditions have any chance for quite some time.

Liam Hendricks would've worked too, just Revere popped to mind.

Riverbrian
06-29-2012, 05:08 PM
the send-down did nothing for Revere

Now was that so hard. I agree completely. Very well said.

BTW... It's close to dinner time... I'm hungry and a Butter-Knife steak and Grape Soda sounds fantastic!!!

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-29-2012, 05:30 PM
Gentlemen, gentlemen. Why argue amongst one another on a recreation excessively barbaric as baseball? We truly are subjecting to complete baffoonery and I must inquire we move on to something classy like the fine young chaps we are. Now what say we gather ourselves and converse on the finer points of backgammon over kippers and crumpets instead?

denarded
06-29-2012, 11:42 PM
don't listen to these dolts. They were better off in their own corner of the blogoshphere. I know everything can't be hunky-dory for every moment of a season, but this is sort of silly...

Badsmerf
07-01-2012, 08:28 PM
don't listen to these dolts. They were better off in their own corner of the blogoshphere. I know everything can't be hunky-dory for every moment of a season, but this is sort of silly...

What is silly about it? Arguing whether the closest possible regular the Twins have at SS in the organization is going to benefit from being sent to AAA or left in the MLB to figure it out? I don't find that silly. Especially given the comparisons to different examples and the invalidity they pose in relation to this particular circumstance (because each is different). I think its a perfectly valid argument and interesting to see developmental philosophies at work.

If you are referring to the "new" posters as dolts, you might want to wait for that. If you think anyone of us is less of a fan because things aren't hunky-dory you have it wrong. We come here to talk baseball because we are passionate about it. If you aren't upset that this team is terrible and was terrible last year there is something drastically wrong with your thinking. I want this team to get better, hopefully so does everyone else. What you might consider bitching might actually be a valid point that suggests something needs to change.

CDog
07-01-2012, 09:24 PM
there is something drastically wrong with your thinking.

Why can't someone else think a different way than you without it being drastically wrong? I found this especially strange since the rest of the post this came from was basically saying the complete opposite.

USAFChief
07-01-2012, 09:40 PM
Why can't someone else think a different way than you without it being drastically wrong?

Oh, the irony.

Cody Christie
07-01-2012, 09:40 PM
I'm fine with leaving Dozier at shortstop and seeing what he can do for the rest of the season. The Twins are not close to being in contention so why not let him play? At the end of the season, the Twins can look back on the season and decide if a change needs to be made. For now, let him take his lumps and hopefully a few minor adjustments will make his second half look better than the first.

CDog
07-01-2012, 09:52 PM
Oh, the irony.

Just let the game come to you. You're pressing. Trying a little too hard. Understandable, though.

kab21
07-01-2012, 10:27 PM
Bruno = the new miracle worker

Badsmerf
07-01-2012, 10:38 PM
Why can't someone else think a different way than you without it being drastically wrong? I found this especially strange since the rest of the post this came from was basically saying the complete opposite.

It is my belief most people like winning. Guess in the case of Twins fans its good enough if they can compete?

CDog
07-01-2012, 10:47 PM
It is my belief most people like winning. Guess in the case of Twins fans its good enough if they can compete?

That's just a big leap, if you ask me. Why can't some people understand a down year or even two or even more, while still wanting and hoping for better? What makes that "drastically wrong?" Or enjoying the little things that happen day in and day out even on a bad team without being upset about too many losses? Or even just liking baseball so much that it's a treat just to go out to the ballpark, watch elite athletes compete at a wonderful and historic game, pulling for one team to win (because they're the home squad or you like their uniforms or have your favorite player) and not getting upset if they don't happen to win even while you hope they do?

Badsmerf
07-01-2012, 10:51 PM
Dude, this a message board. We talk about all things. There are plenty of positive topics like Plouffe and Revere. Unfortunately, right now there are a lot of things to argue about on ways to get better. Got to take it both ways brother.

CDog
07-01-2012, 11:10 PM
Dude, this a message board. We talk about all things. There are plenty of positive topics like Plouffe and Revere. Unfortunately, right now there are a lot of things to argue about on ways to get better. Got to take it both ways brother.

Of course there are. The leap to "drastically wrong" for people that don't follow the team in the same way or react as you might that was my point.

TheLeviathan
07-02-2012, 10:18 AM
The Twins are not close to being in contention so why not let him play?.

Again, why not say the same for Sano? Arcia? "Fill-in-name-of-other-minor-league-guy"?

Yes, Dozier is 25, but he also basically skipped AAA. There is no one in the system coming up anytime soon. He'll have this chance to audition for at least the 2013 season. Why do we feel the need to keep him up even when he's scuffling badly?

At what depths of offensive and defensive play do you stop this line of thinking? I'm genuinely curious. He's sub-.600 OPS now for well over a month. He's committing errors at a rate higher than anyone else in the AL. He's had 2 XBH in the last 3 weeks.

I still think he can be part of this team's future. We have to look at what's best for Dozier and drop this nonsense about the team's play. The team's play, because it is so bad right now, is totally irrelevant. It isn't a valid justification. I've yet to hear anyone make a solid case for why he should continue to take a beating at this level when we aren't seeing progress.

Paul
07-02-2012, 11:53 AM
... I've yet to hear anyone make a solid case for why he should continue to take a beating at this level when we aren't seeing progress.


This is my case:

The minors obviously exist for a reason. The gradient aproach works great for any kind of education. But students successfully skipping grades is not unheard of either. To oversimplify, in baseball the higher the grade the faster the game is. Also the higher you go the greater the weight psychology has in the equation of success. Sometimes what a viewer sees as a "beating" is just part of the process. Sometimes the fact that "we aren't seeing progress" doesn't mean it's not occurring. Gardenhire has the final say in this kids education. And just maybe he knows what he's doing. (Somehow he's convinced a lot of people he does.) He determines where the kid is going to play. He's there observing every day. He sees what you and I see on the field. And a whole lot more in the dugout, in practice, in the clubhouse, and on the road, that we don't see, but nevertheless informs him. I don't know but, perhaps he feels the speed of the game is not the issue. Maybe some kids need more of a "beating" than others to feel they belong. Maybe Gardy feels the "beating" is not something he can even get in AAA. Whatever Gardenhire feels, rest assured he has talked to Brian. And Brian knows the program.

TheLeviathan
07-02-2012, 11:58 AM
Whatever Gardenhire feels, rest assured he has talked to Brian. And Brian knows the program.

That's a valid point of view - I would disagree, but I would accept it as valid. The only thing I would caution is that we're putting the development of this guy in the hands of Gardy who was trained by TK and who has taken a very different approach with similar players - notably Bartlett.

DPJ
07-02-2012, 12:05 PM
Dozier running hard about the box on that spinning ball play earned him atleast another 3 weeks in the majors even if he continues to show nothing in the field or at the plate.

Dilligaf69
07-02-2012, 12:22 PM
dozier is 25. He shouldn't need to develop in the minors anymore. Leave him in there for the rest of the year, let him try to figure things out, and if he can't then go a different direction in 2013. The alternative at this point is going back to alexi casilla, who in addition to being almost equally bad has no future with the organization.


bingo!

Dilligaf69
07-02-2012, 12:23 PM
You people are amazing... Before they called Dozier up, everyone was upset, because he wasn't being called up, now everyone is complaining and saying he needs to be sent down... Dozier belongs with the Twins... He's a smart kid with a good mind for the game... This is where he needs to be to learn how to hit major league hitting... He's not going to learn that at Rochester.... And as is common with many rookies, he shows flashes of what his potential is, while other times he struggles.... By the end of the year I think he'll have settled in a will be playing more consistently, but it's a process... All of his growing pains this year will payoff next season...


Bingo x 2!!!!

Top Gun
07-02-2012, 12:49 PM
Brian been red hot the past week just a tearing it up.

Brock Beauchamp
07-03-2012, 04:05 PM
Yep, it's only fair to mention that Dozier has a 1.117 OPS over the past week. He looks like a different hitter.

USAFChief
07-03-2012, 04:28 PM
Again, why not say the same for Sano? Arcia? "Fill-in-name-of-other-minor-league-guy"?

Yes, Dozier is 25, but he also basically skipped AAA. There is no one in the system coming up anytime soon. He'll have this chance to audition for at least the 2013 season. Why do we feel the need to keep him up even when he's scuffling badly?

At what depths of offensive and defensive play do you stop this line of thinking? I'm genuinely curious. He's sub-.600 OPS now for well over a month. He's committing errors at a rate higher than anyone else in the AL. He's had 2 XBH in the last 3 weeks.

I still think he can be part of this team's future. We have to look at what's best for Dozier and drop this nonsense about the team's play. The team's play, because it is so bad right now, is totally irrelevant. It isn't a valid justification. I've yet to hear anyone make a solid case for why he should continue to take a beating at this level when we aren't seeing progress.

Well over a month? Well, there you have it. Proof positive.

It's also worth remembering that in this day and age AAA adds little over AA, other than more time in the minors. AAA is pretty much a taxi squad for the big league club these days. It's not unusual for players destined for the big leagues to spend little time in AAA.

Let the kid play. There's nothing to be learned in AAA that can't be learned in the big leagues. Either he develops, or he doesn't. It's not hurting the team in any meaningful way.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
07-03-2012, 05:43 PM
Yep, it's only fair to mention that Dozier has a 1.117 OPS over the past week. He looks like a different hitter.


It's just a week. If I do end up being wrong I'll take the heat, but I still think it would be to his benefit to get some AAA time.

TheLeviathan
07-03-2012, 11:28 PM
It's also worth remembering that in this day and age AAA adds little over AA, other than more time in the minors. AAA is pretty much a taxi squad for the big league club these days. It's not unusual for players destined for the big leagues to spend little time in AAA.

This argument is fine, we would agree to disagree, but I find it at least a valid claim. Mind you, suggesting that he go down to AAA is not some revolutionary or absurd notion. It's done hundreds of times around the league every year. The last month has been a disaster for Dozier until this week. Maybe he's put it together, but there is nothing ridiculous about suggesting some non-pressurized time to refine the problems he's having might be a good thing. This however:


It's not hurting the team in any meaningful way.

Is a dumb argument. Who cares? We all agree the Twins aren't going anywhere with this pitching staff, the impact on the team is irrelevant. People keep saying this nonsense (then, seemingly, forgetting this logic with Hendricks) as if it is a valid argument. It's not. Do what's best for Dozier. If you think it's skipping AAA and being in the bigs...ok, that's cool. But "because, what the hell, it won't hurt the team right?" is nonsense. It's what I took issue with from day one.

Nick Nelson
07-04-2012, 12:34 AM
We all agree the Twins aren't going anywhere with this pitching staff, the impact on the team is irrelevant.
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he's saying. What are you even disagreeing with here?

YourHouseIsMyHouse
07-04-2012, 01:25 AM
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he's saying. What are you even disagreeing with here?

I believe he's disagreeing with the reasoning that Dozier should get time to figure it out in the MLB because it's a lost season. Fans say his awful play has no impact on the team anyway because they are playing for nothing. That shouldn't be the main motive to keep a player up to see what you have before he's ideally ready. You do what's best for the player.

Nick Nelson
07-04-2012, 01:36 AM
I believe he's disagreeing with the reasoning that Dozier should get time to figure it out in the MLB because it's a lost season.
I'm pretty sure anyone who's saying he should stay in the majors is saying it because they think it's what's best for him as a player. The only point being made is that his negative impact on the team's outcomes shouldn't play into the equation.

Personally, I don't see what Dozier has to gain by going back to Triple-A. His problem right now is that he can't hit major-league pitching. Going to the minors isn't going to fix that. If he can't figure it out by the end of the year, you move on. He's not a good enough prospect to merit kid gloves.

TheLeviathan
07-04-2012, 06:58 AM
I'm pretty sure anyone who's saying he should stay in the majors is saying it because they think it's what's best for him

If he can't figure it out by the end of the year, you move on. He's not a good enough prospect to merit kid gloves.

You are taking away an implication that isn't there or is at best a clunky phrasing. If it is what is best for Dozier just say that. But there are many here suggesting the teams path to nowhere is the reason to keep him up. I'd argue that is a pretty bizarre notion of player development.

And why does this have to be his one go of it? No one else in the organization I coming to push him out. From what I see 213 is open for him too.

diehardtwinsfan
07-04-2012, 10:32 AM
The Twins are not close to being in contention so why not let him play?

Because there is a point to which this is detrimental. I can give you example after example of guys who were called up too early and never panned out. In recent memory, Carlos Gomez and Delmon Young. In Young's case, the contract kind of forced it, and in Gomez case, they had to have something to show for the Santana trade, and look what happened... Gomez never amounted to anything close to his potential, and Young just started getting tolerable when he got expensive, at which point he regressed again. Both had star potential in the big leagues and neither will ever amount to much of anything. I agree that there are other issues here, but Lev's point is very valid. You have to do what is best for both the org an the player. My big thing is that Dozier (and Parmalee for that matter) should be playing every day. I'm presently not terribly worried where either is playing, though the case for Dozier is looking more and more like AAA. He's making mistakes that he didn't make before.... that's a sign of not being ready... it isn't a knock on Dozier as much as a recognition that 2012 may not be his year, and spending time in Rochester might be in his best interest.

As for the org, there is one other big thing... service time. I know we have money now, but that still doesn't mean make stupid decisions. If he needs developmental time, there's no reason why he cannot develop in AAA where his clock isn't ticking. It certainly shouldn't be the sole reason for doing this as it was in the past, but if he's clearly not ready, then don't waste the time.

kab21
07-04-2012, 11:14 AM
Gomez and Delmon aren't comparable at all to the Dozier situation. Gomez and Young had upside and were called up at 21/22. Dozier had an utility player tag before last year's fluke. It looks like he's headed back to utility player/bottom tier starter status and spending time in AAA isn't going to make the difference. I just hope that he can come out of this funk and be better than Alexi.

diehardtwinsfan
07-04-2012, 03:47 PM
Kab, I'm not comparing Dozier to Delmon and Gomez. I'm simply using them as an example that people can get called up too soon and it can have a negative impact on them. You are right in that Dozier was never considered to have the talent that these guys had. But that has nothing to do with whether or not he should be sent down or work things out in Minnesota. Like Lev said, you do what is best for the player and for the organization, and if that's sending him down... send him down. If it's keeping him up, keep him up.

USAFChief
07-04-2012, 06:08 PM
You might make a case for Carlos Gomez being called up too early, and not developing properly because of it. He's only had 1 season of full time play at the big league level, and it's possible he would have learned more by playing full time in the minors. It's also possible, of course, he has reached his potential, and we're seeing it.

Delmon Young is not comparable. In addition to the age issue reached by Kab, Delmon has been a full time player in the big leagues for several years, and has compiled over 3200 PAs. If he was going to develop, he could have done it in the majors by now.

What Dozier needs is exposure to MLB pitching. I can't see any benefit to sticking him in Rochester. If he wasn't playing, that'd be one thing. But he's playing almost every day. He's been bad, but not overwhelmed. Let's see what the situation looks like over the winter.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
07-04-2012, 07:48 PM
This is my case:

But students successfully skipping grades is not unheard of either.

The school comparison is simple enough, but why allow someone to jump the grade they're in when they have a C?

diehardtwinsfan
07-05-2012, 10:01 AM
You might make a case for Carlos Gomez being called up too early, and not developing properly because of it. He's only had 1 season of full time play at the big league level, and it's possible he would have learned more by playing full time in the minors. It's also possible, of course, he has reached his potential, and we're seeing it.

Delmon Young is not comparable. In addition to the age issue reached by Kab, Delmon has been a full time player in the big leagues for several years, and has compiled over 3200 PAs. If he was going to develop, he could have done it in the majors by now.

What Dozier needs is exposure to MLB pitching. I can't see any benefit to sticking him in Rochester. If he wasn't playing, that'd be one thing. But he's playing almost every day. He's been bad, but not overwhelmed. Let's see what the situation looks like over the winter.

Delmon's contract forced the issue. He signed an ML contract. When he arrived in MN they pretty much had to keep him up, and lest anyone forget, he was pretty bad his first couple of seasons in MN.