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View Full Version : Valencia, Morneau LH/RH splits and 1st base



Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 01:21 PM
I was going to blog about this, but this will generate more discussion. I propose that the Twins play Valencia at 1B in Rochester and soonish call him up and send that poor bastard Chris Parmelee down (what on earth are the Twins thinking with him!?). Valencia would then hopefully be Luke Hughes+ (except for 2B) and maximizes his value as a lefty-masher.

Danny Valencia's career numbers against LH pitching: .325/.374/.485 with 7 homers in 297 PA, and a not terrible 22/36 BB/K ratio.

Justin Morneau's 2012 numbers against LH pitching (sit down first): .087/.135/.188 with 2 homers in 74 plate appearances (albeit similar rate to V's career numbers there), and a terrible 4/22 BB/K rate.

Morneau's career splits are of course better, but I think they are irrelevant when judging him now. They were only marginally better in similar plate appearances in 2011.


A Valencia/Morneau 1B platoon seems to make the most sense as it maximizes the value in a very simple way and it has the added benefit of not "Tosoni-ing" Parmelee. And then the Twins have another power (vs. LH at least) bat in the lineup. Willingham-Plouffe-Parmelee at 4-5-6 (or 3-4-5) against lefties is pretty appealing.

Thoughts?

DPJ
06-26-2012, 01:23 PM
It will be a cold day in hell before Gardy platoons or pitch hits for Morneau (even though it's the absolutly right call) against LHP.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 01:26 PM
If the Twins get back into the race you should consider it down the stretch, though I'd rather they get a better "Lefty Masher" instead of Valencia who played terribly all year.

However until that point you might as well let Morneau take his lumps and ideally find his swing against LHP again. Morneau is paid to much, and has to much potential/results to be a platoon type guy at this point.

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 01:32 PM
Valencia had 27 plate appearances, I believe, against lefties this year. His career numbers are very good against them. Morneau for the past two seasons has been COMPLETELY TERRIBLE against them. I cannot emphasize those numbers enough. So, how can it possibly be argued that the Twins are getting their money's worth simply by playing Morneau against lefties because he makes $14 million and therefore should "figure it out" (no matter for how long???).

DPJ
06-26-2012, 01:32 PM
though I'd rather they get a better "Lefty Masher" instead of Valencia who played terribly all year.


So you'd rather the Twins give up an asset to trade for someone when they have a guy in the minors who costs nothing and is a .325/.374/.485 hitter against LHP and makes 400K?

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 01:38 PM
So you'd rather the Twins give up an asset to trade for someone when they have a guy in the minors who costs nothing and is a .325/.374/.485 hitter against LHP and makes 400K?

I'm not saying they need to give up an asset, I just don't trust Valencia very much at this point.

twinsnorth49
06-26-2012, 01:44 PM
Morneau's 2011 splits shouldn't count either, way too early to talk about keeping him out of the lineup that often for a guy like Valencia. Mornie isn't a platoon player yet and Valencia isn't ready to be a major leaguer yet.

DPJ
06-26-2012, 01:44 PM
I'm not saying they need to give up an asset, I just don't trust Valencia very much at this point.

What is there to trust...HE'S A 325/.374/.485 HITTER AGAINST LHP!!

Were not talking about potential or maybe he'll figure it out. The guys has proven he can hit LHP and hit it well.

DPJ
06-26-2012, 01:46 PM
Valencia isn't ready to be a major leaguer yet.

What does that even mean?

twinsnorth49
06-26-2012, 01:49 PM
What does that even mean?

Here........I'll................type.............. .slower............it................means........ ....he's...................not.................... ....good.....................enough............... ...to...............play............major......... ...league...................baseball............ri ght.................now....................or ............put......................more......... ......simply......................he.............. ..........sucks.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 01:49 PM
What is there to trust...HE'S A 325/.374/.485 HITTER AGAINST LHP!!

Were not talking about potential or maybe he'll figure it out. The guys has proven he can hit LHP and hit it well.



.309/.352/.470 in 2011
(.822 OPS) in 2012 he has a .645 OPS aganist lefties. Methinks the Twins should aim higher if they are simply looking for a "leftie" masher to get multiple starts per week at 1st base.



Why the hell is the formatting so screwy on this crap??

edit: he has a .822 OPS against LHP in 2011 and a .645 against them in 2012. Color me not super duper impressed.

DPJ
06-26-2012, 01:53 PM
Which sample size is larger Dave, the 608 at-bats he had in 2011 or 103 at-bats in 2012?

twinsnorth49
06-26-2012, 01:55 PM
Which sample size is larger Dave, the 608 at-bats he had in 2011 or 103 at-bats in 2012?

Sounds like a trick question Dave, don't bite.

DPJ
06-26-2012, 01:55 PM
Here........I'll................type.............. .slower............it................means........ ....he's...................not.................... ....good.....................enough............... ...to...............play............major......... ...league...................baseball............ri ght.................now....................or ............put......................more......... ......simply......................he.............. ..........sucks.

Extremely dick-headish reply...but whatever.

He's shown over his MLB career that he can hanlde LHP well, no one is saying start him everyday again. But he's a cheap asset within the organization that could fill a role very nicely.

So for what you're asking him to do, he doesn't suck at all.

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 02:17 PM
How on earth do Morneau's 2011 and 2012 stats against lefties not point to "platoon"!? It wouldn't have to be a strict platoon if he has had success against a particular lefty, but talk about pissing money away . . . meanwhile, Valencia knowing his role is not to repeat 2010, but rather to hit lefties like he has before the limited time against them for the Twins this year . . .

I don't really see the rabid disagreement here. I find it hard to believe that Valencia isn't a MLB-ready player against lefties.

snepp
06-26-2012, 02:20 PM
Having Valencia around to hit lefties occasionally makes more sense than having Parmelee rot on the bench.

kirbyelway
06-26-2012, 02:48 PM
I'd rather have a bad Morneau than a good Valencia.

daan4786
06-26-2012, 02:51 PM
How on earth do Morneau's 2011 and 2012 stats against lefties not point to "platoon"!? It wouldn't have to be a strict platoon if he has had success against a particular lefty, but talk about pissing money away . . . meanwhile, Valencia knowing his role is not to repeat 2010, but rather to hit lefties like he has before the limited time against them for the Twins this year . . .

I don't really see the rabid disagreement here. I find it hard to believe that Valencia isn't a MLB-ready player against lefties.

Its not about valencia for me, its that your saying that morneau is incapable of improving against lefties. The guy took most of two years off because his head was messed up. Now he's back and hitting the ball hard- plenty of homers and rbis, although his batting average is low because he's struggling against lefties. Hitting left-handed pitching is difficult for left handed hitters, so isn't it possible that taking all that time off left him with less confidence and changed his approach? He's the same person, the same excellent hitter, but he might need to see more lefties and change his approach (maybe swing a little less) to get back to maybe 80% of where he was in his prime.

Brock Beauchamp
06-26-2012, 02:52 PM
Having Valencia around to hit lefties occasionally makes more sense than having Parmelee rot on the bench.

Given how Parmelee has started to look like he could someday be Morneau's replacement (it's still a bit of a longshot but not impossible), it doubly makes no sense for him to rot on the bench when he could be getting valuable ABs in Rochester.

diehardtwinsfan
06-26-2012, 02:53 PM
Well, I for one am not sure the Twins are "in it" unless some major things change, like picking up a couple of quality starters. Because of that, I am willing to let Morneau take his lumps, though it would be intelligent to ensure that his days off occurr against lefties. He would have had a good case for MVP in 2010 had he not gotten hurt, and while he's always hit righties better than lefties, he's still quite clearly not himself. Given that he hasn't played baseball for an entire season in quite some time, I'd say let him finish the year and get some confidence back. My suspicion is that by next spring, he will be looking a lot more like the old Morneau than even the one we see today. The guy is still in his prime, it isn't time yet to designate him to be a platoon player

TheLeviathan
06-26-2012, 03:01 PM
Agreed snepp. Even if it's not Valencia than call-up Matt Carson or some other scrub. Parmalee needs to be getting ABs.

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 03:04 PM
Weird . . . one would have thought that moving Valencia to this role would also be much more about the future than simply about 2012! I guess that isn't the impression I gave most people. Anyway, at 6.5 games out, I don't really like seeing Morneau up there against lefties. I mean . . . my god look at the stats one more time. That's not even Butera-esque.

And of course it is true that Valencia's numbers against lefties for his career are better than Morneau's for his career.

"The guy is still in his prime, it isn't time yet to designate him to be a platoon player." -- how on earth is he in his prime!? It has shocked most people that he has performed even close to this well this season.

jeffk
06-26-2012, 03:06 PM
It will be a cold day in hell before Gardy platoons or pitch hits for Morneau (even though it's the absolutly right call) against LHP.

This is just frustratingly short-sighted. Morneau isn't some marginal minor-league call-up. He's a former MVP who got creamed in the head and is fighting a long road back. He's made progress, against some tall odds. The Twins aren't in it anyways. This is his is best shot to get back to his former self, and a 10% chance of that is better than a short-term fix to try to snag another run or two over the course of the rest of the season.

Brock Beauchamp
06-26-2012, 03:09 PM
"The guy is still in his prime, it isn't time yet to designate him to be a platoon player." -- how on earth is he in his prime!? It has shocked most people that he has performed even close to this well this season.

How is he not in his prime? He's only 31 years old and is returning from a career-threatening concussion. It's not as if he had his knee repaired and it will never be right again. If he can put the concussion symptoms behind him for good and gets back into a rhythm, he has plenty of good years ahead of him. He was neck-and-neck with Cabrera for the 2010 MVP when he thumped his noggin. That was less than two years ago.

StormJH1
06-26-2012, 03:12 PM
I'd rather have a bad Morneau than a good Valencia.
Huh? Why, because you like Morneau better?

I think the Twins' have spent too MUCH time worrying about "rewarding the nice guys" in their clubhouse. That being said, it's not like Valencia has any kind of track record to declare that he "deserves" a platoon shot. Now, if Parmelee were right-handed, or if we had another "4-A" minor leaguer that could mash lefties and actually plays 1B...

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 03:15 PM
He's "only" 31 and returning from a career-threatening concussion (and a whole host of other injuries). That is what you should have stated. Now read that out loud and ask yourself if that is a player in his "prime."

He also didn't "thump his noggin." He had his who the hell knows Nth concussion . . . then he re-aggravated that diving for a ball last year. One more concussion and it is over.

twinsnorth49
06-26-2012, 03:18 PM
Its not about valencia for me, its that your saying that morneau is incapable of improving against lefties. The guy took most of two years off because his head was messed up. Now he's back and hitting the ball hard- plenty of homers and rbis, although his batting average is low because he's struggling against lefties. Hitting left-handed pitching is difficult for left handed hitters, so isn't it possible that taking all that time off left him with less confidence and changed his approach? He's the same person, the same excellent hitter, but he might need to see more lefties and change his approach (maybe swing a little less) to get back to maybe 80% of where he was in his prime.

What he said, plus why waste Valencia now hitting against lefties when there still might be hope he becomes a more complete player down in Rochester. I agree with the Parmelee sentiment though.

snepp
06-26-2012, 03:20 PM
Given how Parmelee has started to look like he could someday be Morneau's replacement (it's still a bit of a longshot but not impossible), it doubly makes no sense for him to rot on the bench when he could be getting valuable ABs in Rochester.


Agreed snepp. Even if it's not Valencia than call-up Matt Carson or some other scrub. Parmalee needs to be getting ABs.

That about sums it up. Parmelee's roster spot is basically unused at this point and he would be better served playing every day. They don't need to go full platoon with Morneau, but it wouldn't hurt to give him a few breaks against them either.

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 03:21 PM
Also, players in their "prime" do not post .375ish OPS against any-handed pitchers in the past 165+ plate appearances against them.

twinsnorth49
06-26-2012, 03:21 PM
He's "only" 31 and returning from a career-threatening concussion (and a whole host of other injuries). That is what you should have stated. Now read that out loud and ask yourself if that is a player in his "prime."

He also didn't "thump his noggin." He had his who the hell knows Nth concussion . . . then he re-aggravated that diving for a ball last year. One more concussion and it is over.

Overstated, lots of top athletes have come back just fine from concussions and played well. I didn't say he was in his prime but right now he is taking the field almost everyday, playing it just fine, hitting and slugging very well against righties and waiting to get his s**t together against lefties. My money is on him doing it based on his track record, which is one hell of a lot better track record than Danny Valencia.

DPJ
06-26-2012, 03:23 PM
What he said, plus why waste Valencia now hitting against lefties when there still might be hope he becomes a more complete player down in Rochester. I agree with the Parmelee sentiment though.

Valencia is what 27-28 years old, he's not some kid who's still got some upside. He's not a everyday MLB player, but that doesn't mean he couldn't havea nice platoon role at 3B, 1B and maybe even fake his way on the corner outfields spot.

Yoshii
06-26-2012, 03:26 PM
Quote: kirbyelway 27757:I'd rather have a bad Morneau than a good Valencia.

+1

Brock Beauchamp
06-26-2012, 03:27 PM
He's "only" 31 and returning from a career-threatening concussion (and a whole host of other injuries). That is what you should have stated. Now read that out loud and ask yourself if that is a player in his "prime."

He also didn't "thump his noggin." He had his who the hell knows Nth concussion . . . then he re-aggravated that diving for a ball last year. One more concussion and it is over.

I didn't guarantee health for the rest of his career, I merely said that if he's healthy, he's still in his prime years. Can he stay healthy? I have no idea but if his concussion symptoms are truly behind him, that's a huge step in the right direction. Before the concussion, he had one back injury that knocked him out of the final 25 games of 2009. Before that point, he was a rock at first. As for post-concussion injuries, it's hard to say... Frustration and bad play could have been just as responsible for those "injuries" as actual physical ailments.

snepp
06-26-2012, 03:29 PM
Valencia is what 27-28 years old, he's not some kid who's still got some upside. He's not a everyday MLB player, but that doesn't mean he couldn't havea nice platoon role at 3B, 1B and maybe even fake his way on the corner outfields spot.

Pretty much, get what value out of him while you can, the chances are pretty good there isn't a huge future ahead of him.

Brock Beauchamp
06-26-2012, 03:31 PM
Pretty much, get what value out of him while you can, the chances are pretty good there isn't a huge future ahead of him.

Yeah, if you want to bet on the future of Valencia or Parmelee, you take Parmelee every time. That's why he should be in Rochester. Nobody should care if Valencia is wasting service time on the bench.

twinsnorth49
06-26-2012, 03:35 PM
Yeah, if you want to bet on the future of Valencia or Parmelee, you take Parmelee every time. That's why he should be in Rochester. Nobody should care if Valencia is wasting service time on the bench.

Well, you're right about that and I don't care, would definitely take Parm every time.

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 03:38 PM
Overstated, lots of top athletes have come back just fine from concussions and played well. I didn't say he was in his prime but right now he is taking the field almost everyday, playing it just fine, hitting and slugging very well against righties and waiting to get his s**t together against lefties. My money is on him doing it based on his track record, which is one hell of a lot better track record than Danny Valencia.

What part is overstated? Are people forgetting that prior to the beginning of this season, there were many of us who thought he might never really play again, or else something horrible will happen again soon. People also seem to forget the other injuries besides the concussions. And I suspect something else is bothering him right now.

Huskerboy
06-26-2012, 03:41 PM
Like the idea. If you can't get rid of Morneau ( I do not believe M is capable of retruning to form. the old Justin is gone and not likely to return) and his huge salary at least we could get better production against lefties into the line up. Let's Parmelee go back where he belongs.

Winston Smith
06-26-2012, 03:41 PM
OK parmelee is doing nothing on the roster. Sitting on the bench does him no good or the team any good. Bringing up Valencia does make sense becasue he fits what they need better. I would think that he should play 3rd on the days a lefty is pitching and Plouffe can play first, however. Giving Morneau a day off now and then against a lefty is logical and having his bat on the bench for later in the game is a big plus. It also wouldn't be a bad thing to have Valencia on the bench agaist a lefty reliever late in a game. It would appear that Valencia isn't going to fit in the Twins future so getting him some at bats where he could succeed might raise his trade value from the now broken bat level.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 03:42 PM
Also, players in their "prime" do not post .375ish OPS against any-handed pitchers in the past 165+ plate appearances against them.

Are you truly this dense? Do you understand why exactly Morneau struggled mightily last year and has been less than perfect this year?

Brock Beauchamp
06-26-2012, 03:43 PM
It would appear that Valencia isn't going to fit in the Twins future so getting him some at bats where he could succeed might raise his trade value from the now broken bat level.

Unless Valencia turns it around completely (and thereby makes himself valuable to the Twins in other ways), his trade value is nothing. If he's going to be an asset moving forward, it's probably going to be as a right-handed platoon bat.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 03:44 PM
OK parmelee is doing nothing on the roster. Sitting on the bench does him no good or the team any good. Bringing up Valencia does make sense becasue he fits what they need better. I would think that he should play 3rd on the days a lefty is pitching and Plouffe can play first, however. Giving Morneau a day off now and then against a lefty is logical and having his bat on the bench for later in the game is a big plus. It also wouldn't be a bad thing to have Valencia on the bench agaist a lefty reliever late in a game. It would appear that Valencia isn't going to fit in the Twins future so getting him some at bats where he could succeed might raise his trade value from the now broken bat level.

Others would argue that Valencia needs to be playing every day in the AAA for him to continue to improve his hitting and fielding. I just think if you want a lefty masher to play 1-2 times a week you can do a lot better then a Danny Valencia.

Giving Morneau a day or two off from time to time against tough lefties is one thing, its entirely another thing to go full platoon on him, I do not endorse the 2nd and think the first is the smart way to go.

snepp
06-26-2012, 03:44 PM
Unless Valencia turns it around completely (and thereby makes himself valuable to the Twins in other ways)

Naked batting practice guy?

snepp
06-26-2012, 03:46 PM
Others would argue that Valencia needs to be playing every day in the AAA for him to continue to improve his hitting and fielding. I just think if you want a lefty masher to play 1-2 times a week you can do a lot better then a Danny Valencia.

Giving Morneau a day or two off from time to time against tough lefties is one thing, its entirely another thing to go full platoon on him, I do not endorse the 2nd and think the first is the smart way to go.

Is there a better option right now? There's nothing stopping you from sending him back down later when/if one becomes available. And as DPJ pointed out, he's not some young kid anymore, the amount of improvement is likely to be very minimal, almost certainly less than the improvement you would hope to expect from Parmelee.

Brock Beauchamp
06-26-2012, 03:46 PM
Naked batting practice guy?

1369

Must... Post... Ten... Characters...

Ultima Ratio
06-26-2012, 03:47 PM
Naked batting practice guy?

Is this a Mike Redmond reference?

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 03:51 PM
Is there a better option right now? There's nothing stopping you from sending him back down later when/if one becomes available. And as DPJ pointed out, he's not some young kid anymore, the amount of improvement is likely to be very minimal, almost certainly less than the improvement you would hope to expect from Parmelee.

Then bring him up to rot on the bench, he still isn't good enough to be taking at bats from Morneau on a full time platoon level. It's way to early to take Morneau out of the lineup 2 or so days a week.

snepp
06-26-2012, 03:53 PM
As per my previous posts, I never advocated a full platoon, merely that having Valencia on the bench getting the occasional at-bat against lefties makes considerably more sense than Parmelee rotting on the bench doing absolutely nothing.


Basically it boils down to this for me.

Parmelee potential future + not rotting + getting full-time ab's in AAA >>>>> Valencia potential future + rotting + getting some ab's vs lefties

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 03:54 PM
As per my previous posts, I never advocated a full platoon, merely that having Valencia on the bench getting the occasional at-bat against lefties makes considerably more sense than Parmelee rotting on the bench doing absolutely nothing.

Yeah, but I didn't think that was the topic at hand, and I don't think anyone would disagree with you. I forgot Parmelee was even on the roster to be honest, he gets zero playing time.

Brock Beauchamp
06-26-2012, 03:55 PM
As per my previous posts, I never advocated a full platoon, merely that having Valencia on the bench getting the occasional at-bat against lefties makes considerably more sense than Parmelee rotting on the bench doing absolutely nothing.

Ditto. Morneau has to sit occasionally, as does Plouffe. Parmelee is not helping the team by sitting on the bench; Valencia may as well get those at-bats. I'm not advocating a platoon either, just stating that the Twins should be using both their current and future assets more wisely.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 03:57 PM
Ditto. Morneau has to sit occasionally, as does Plouffe. Parmelee is not helping the team by sitting on the bench; Valencia may as well get those at-bats. I'm not advocating a platoon either, just stating that the Twins should be using both their current and future assets more wisely.

Why does Plouffe have to sit occasionally? I get protecting him from himself against some elite RHP from time to time, but Plouffe should be playing nearly every day.
Also as far as Plouffe's at bats/games at third go, might as well give them to Carroll who has proven to be a asset in the field (vs Valencia's routine garbage) and has proven to get on base at a decent clip.

Brock Beauchamp
06-26-2012, 04:00 PM
Why does Plouffe have to sit occasionally? I get protecting him from himself against some elite RHP from time to time, but Plouffe should be playing nearly every day.
Also as far as Plouffe's at bats/games at third go, might as well give them to Carroll who has proven to be a asset in the field (vs Valencia's routine garbage) and has proven to get on base at a decent clip.

Occasionally, as in "not often". Basically, Valencia would pick up a few ABs from Morneau and a few garbage ABs here and there on getaway days. I'm not advocating that the guy get 500 ABs.

Ultima Ratio
06-26-2012, 04:00 PM
Perhaps Parmelee remains due to the lingering Doumit injured calf, Mauer recent injury and secret Morneau injury (if there is one) -- thus he's insurance as something damaging could happen at any moment to those three mentioned, requiring Parm to come in a play 1st. I'm not saying this is the truth or the exact reasoning of the front office, but am doing my best to put the pinches together because, as you all above have noted, Parm getting 3-4 ABs a weeks is baffling.

snepp
06-26-2012, 04:02 PM
I forgot Parmelee was even on the roster to be honest, he gets zero playing time.

You weren't the only one, I had to go check the official roster to be sure.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 04:13 PM
Perhaps Parmelee remains due to the lingering Doumit injured calf, Mauer recent injury and secret Morneau injury (if there is one) -- thus he's insurance as something damaging could happen at any moment to those three mentioned, requiring Parm to come in a play 1st. I'm not saying this is the truth or the exact reasoning of the front office, but am doing my best to put the pinches together because, as you all above have noted, Parm getting 3-4 ABs a weeks is baffling.

Well Gardy does insist on 3 Catchers on the roster just in case they lose the DH (chances are about 1:3,000 or so), it wouldn't shock me if he keeps 6 1st baseman on the roster for the same reason :)

diehardtwinsfan
06-26-2012, 05:35 PM
are we seriously arguing that Danny V and Morneau should be platooning? I get the idea of making sure that Morneau's day off is against a lefty, but I do think he should be playing every day, as should Valencia and Parmalee. This season is pretty much toast, so unless they can find a spot for those two to occupy every day, then they should be doing it in AAA.

DPJ
06-26-2012, 06:10 PM
are we seriously arguing that Danny V and Morneau should be platooning? I get the idea of making sure that Morneau's day off is against a lefty, but I do think he should be playing every day, as should Valencia and Parmalee. This season is pretty much toast, so unless they can find a spot for those two to occupy every day, then they should be doing it in AAA.

Playing everyday...Parm yes, Valencia not so much. Danny is 27, playing everyday in AAA isn't gonna turn him into a major league starter. Better for him to rot on the bench and get the occiasional start or pitch hit duties against tough LHP then have Chris sit and sit for games on end.

Thrylos
06-26-2012, 06:32 PM
A Valencia/Morneau 1B platoon seems to make the most sense as it maximizes the value in a very simple way and it has the added benefit of not "Tosoni-ing" Parmelee. And then the Twins have another power (vs. LH at least) bat in the lineup. Willingham-Plouffe-Parmelee at 4-5-6 (or 3-4-5) against lefties is pretty appealing.

Thoughts?

It could work, but can be done another (easier) way without Valencia having to learn another position: Do the Valencia-Parmelee swap and against LHP play Valencia at 3B and Plouffe at 1B (a position he played before). Easy peasy. But that is if Morneau sticks around the next month or 2

jokin
06-26-2012, 06:37 PM
It could work, but can be done another (easier) way without Valencia having to learn another position: Do the Valencia-Parmelee swap and against LHP play Valencia at 3B and Plouffe at 1B (a position he played before). Easy peasy. But that is if Morneau sticks around the next month or 2

Are you suggesting he is gone by July 31? I'm not sure they can get much for him the way he is going right now- but then again, selling at rock bottom has become the "Twins Way".

DPJ
06-26-2012, 06:38 PM
It could work, but can be done another (easier) way without Valencia having to learn another position: Do the Valencia-Parmelee swap and against LHP play Valencia at 3B and Plouffe at 1B (a position he played before). Easy peasy. But that is if Morneau sticks around the next month or 2

Ploufee has played all of 13 innings at 1B in his MLB career, it's not like he's a slick glove over there. NTM if you think he's the 3B of the future, you leave him there every single say cause his defense leaves alot to be desired.

jokin
06-26-2012, 06:40 PM
It could work, but can be done another (easier) way without Valencia having to learn another position: Do the Valencia-Parmelee swap and against LHP play Valencia at 3B and Plouffe at 1B (a position he played before). Easy peasy. But that is if Morneau sticks around the next month or 2

What you're proposing makes way too much sense, a guarantee that Gardy would never consider it. Now, if there's another catcher who mashes lefties and occasionally can play 1B, Gardy would be all over it, can't have enough catchers, 3 just aint enough.

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 06:48 PM
I didn't even think of that, Thrylos. I guess I am not totally sure that messing around with Plouffe defensively and I would like to see Valencia do something more to contribute, but whatever. I still am not sure everyone is grasping the depths of the badness against lefties for Morneau.

twinsnorth49
06-26-2012, 07:09 PM
I didn't even think of that, Thrylos. I guess I am not totally sure that messing around with Plouffe defensively and I would like to see Valencia do something more to contribute, but whatever. I still am not sure everyone is grasping the depths of the badness against lefties for Morneau.

I think everyone grasps the depths of badness Morneau is at vs lefties, it's pretty plain to see. I just don't agree with you that it's going to stay that way and when it turns around it's better for the team on multiple levels.

diehardtwinsfan
06-26-2012, 07:28 PM
Playing everyday...Parm yes, Valencia not so much. Danny is 27, playing everyday in AAA isn't gonna turn him into a major league starter. Better for him to rot on the bench and get the occiasional start or pitch hit duties against tough LHP then have Chris sit and sit for games on end.

DPJ, I guess I hold out more hope than you do. Valencia had a pretty decent minor league track record and was good in his rookie campaign. Sophmore and Junior seaons certainly have had less than desirable results, but given his history, I still think there's hope for him to put it together and provide decent production for a couple years while he is cheap... Given that, I'd play the kid every day, whether that's in Rochester or MN, I don't care.

TheLeviathan
06-26-2012, 08:41 PM
I'm not sure I'd get bent out of shape either way. Parmalee needs to go down and start. Might as well keep Valencia in AAA hitting every day rather than sitting on the bench annoying the manager. Just call up your most Rene Tosoni-like guy that hits right-handed and call it a day.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 10:03 PM
I'm not sure I'd get bent out of shape either way. Parmalee needs to go down and start. Might as well keep Valencia in AAA hitting every day rather than sitting on the bench annoying the manager. Just call up your most Rene Tosoni-like guy that hits right-handed and call it a day.
Hey buddy, how dare you tread on a Tosoni like prospect, those guys only come around once maybe twice in a blue moon for an orginzation!

Ultima Ratio
06-26-2012, 10:10 PM
Re-posting this from the game thread tonight:

Well, we got some answers to our questions about the bench players tonight. Parmelee's job is to get hit by pitch when down in 0-2 counts for which he's a pinch hitter in unlikely ninth-inning-rallies. And Martroaianni's job is to pinch run and score from second on OF singles, again.... when fighting for the unlikely 9th inning rally. So there we go. I'm satisfied. No roster moves necessary.

Pius Jefferson
06-26-2012, 10:18 PM
It's minor but Matt Carson or a non 40 man player would need to replace someone on the 40 man roster.

Agreed with everyone else that Parmelee needs to be in Rochester getting every day playing time.

Kobs
06-26-2012, 10:51 PM
So...have we determined whether or not Morneau is afraid if getting hit in the head by left handed pitchers?

Cody Christie
06-26-2012, 11:25 PM
I hate seeing Parmelee not getting used. I think Valencia is not in the plans for the Twins at this point. He hasn't done that great at Triple-A so why call him up

Riverbrian
06-26-2012, 11:30 PM
1. Justin Morneau is either going to be our 1st baseman in 2013 OR traded to a contender for something. (or hurt again).

2. If Morneau is our 1B in 2013 and with that contract and earned veteran cred. He will be allowed time to work on things against lefties.

3. If Morneau is traded at the deadline or off season he needs to have the confidence of his management displayed. You do not throw a brick through the windshield of your car prior to selling it. You do not throw a brick threw the windshield of a car your keeping.

4. Either way... Platooning Morneau is counter productive to the betterment of the Twins.

5. Danny Velencia had a starting major league job. He had no obvious threat underneath him and therefore no reason to lose his job and he still managed to lose his major league job.

6. Velencia isn't in AAA right now because he hit whatever he hit. Velencia is in AAA because he played half assed baseball.

7. His manager is Ron Gardenhire and Gardy will stick with Tolbert and Punto and players who go out and bust ass despite poor hitting metrics.

8. Velencia is in Rochester and he deserves it. He took his job for granted and he lost it. He's done nothing in Rochester to deserve a call back.

9. Chris Parmelee should be sent down... It makes no sense to waste him on the bench. Call him back up when a job is open.

10. There are 95 guys on this team who can play 1B right now. Training Velencia for platoon at 1B is a really bad idea.

CDog
06-26-2012, 11:41 PM
8. Velencia is in Rochester and he deserves it. He took his job for granted and he lost it. He's done nothing in Rochester to deserve a call back.

How do you know he took his job for granted?

snepp
06-26-2012, 11:58 PM
How do you know he took his job for granted?

It fits the narrative of his post?

Riverbrian
06-27-2012, 12:07 AM
How do you know he took his job for granted?

Been around the game for awhile. I recognize it when I see it.

Jeez that sounded egotistical... Didn't mean to sound that way.

Defensively... Let's just say... There was no dirt on his uniform. Watched him make routine boots too many times because he wasn't engaged enough to move his feet a couple of steps. That's taking your job for granted. Especially with your boss named Ron Gardenhire.

Offensively a year straight of chasing the outside pitch without fixing it. If you don't stop swinging at that. The pitchers will keep throwing it. If you do make contact it's a weak grounder or pop up everytime. After awhile it's clear... The kid isn't attempting to adjust and doing so without consequence. He's a good hitter. The MLB fastball wasn't too much for him. The mental part is.

Shane Wahl
06-27-2012, 12:34 AM
1. I am not a fan of Danny Valencia by any means but Trevor Plouffe was terrible to start the season as well, wasn't he? I don't really think the Twins should write him off at this point.

2. I find it almost ridiculous to think that Justin Morneau with $23 million left on his contract is going to be traded, especially with his current struggles and what appears to be some other injury (probably due to wear and tear of playing MORE THAN HE SHOULD). Look at his June numbers.

3. I fail to see how doing this negates the Twins future in any way, especially given 2 above. Valencia is not simply some terrible player. And he has been very good against lefties. Morneau is a fundamentally different player post July 2010.

4. It always strikes me as odd when people poo-poo moves that might mean 1 win in a season (though I am not sure this would only be worth 1 win). If one does that 5 times, that's 5 wins.

Riverbrian
06-27-2012, 01:23 AM
1. I am not a fan of Danny Valencia by any means but Trevor Plouffe was terrible to start the season as well, wasn't he? I don't really think the Twins should write him off at this point.

I don't think the Twins should write him off either. I think Velencia has to stop writing himself off. He needs to know these jobs are earned. Plouffe certainly was stinking up the joint. He got a job handed to him cuz there was no one else to turn to and he stopped swinging at crap and he grabbed the job with both hands. He fixed it in less than a month of full time duty... Velencia had over a year and it was getting worse. Still not fixed!


2. I find it almost ridiculous to think that Justin Morneau with $23 million left on his contract is going to be traded, especially with his current struggles and what appears to be some other injury (probably due to wear and tear of playing MORE THAN HE SHOULD). Look at his June numbers.

Can't argue with this too loudly. You may be right. However, your prophecy is much more self fulfilling if you kick him in the nuts. If Morneau gets Plouffe hot in July... A former MVP may change GM opinions. You want to give Velencia that chance to do a Plouffe but you won't give it to the guy who actually did it before. I cant see your thinking here. The Twins could also eat some contract to make a deal better. Eating some money to get a pitching prospect in return is better than eating some money because his splits are looking rough and you toss him aside. 14 million and a platoon. You might as well cut him cuz he will be worthless at that point.


3. I fail to see how doing this negates the Twins future in any way, especially given 2 above. Valencia is not simply some terrible player. And he has been very good against lefties. Morneau is a fundamentally different player post July 2010.

Velen is is not a terrible player he just plays terribly. You can call Velencia up... Let him fill the water jugs... I don't care. Velencia being called up does not negate the Twins future. He played his way into the water jug role. Velencia means very little in the baseball world right now.

You negate the Twins future by:

A. Pulling the plug on any future trade value for a former MVP.
B. If Morneau has no current trade value. He's a 2013 Twin for sure and hes making 14 million. Doesn't take a rocket scientist or zookeeper or radio DJ or any other smart person to realize that Justin Morneau is playing 1B next year. So a platoon isn't wise.


4. It always strikes me as odd when people poo-poo moves that might mean 1 win in a season (though I am not sure this would only be worth 1 win). If one does that 5 times, that's 5 wins.

I'm willing to make moves that cost us 20 wins a year. I poo poo ideas that prevent us from improving our pitching or overall team in general.

Patience... Can we just get through the trade deadline. Before you start tossing the cargo of Cinnamon, Black Pepper or Silk overboard before you reach port on the trade route.

glunn
06-27-2012, 01:42 AM
Another great post Brian. I agree with you that patience is the wisest approach to maximizing value here.

diehardtwinsfan
06-27-2012, 07:25 AM
1. I am not a fan of Danny Valencia by any means but Trevor Plouffe was terrible to start the season as well, wasn't he? I don't really think the Twins should write him off at this point.




I don't think the Twins should write him off either. I think Velencia has to stop writing himself off. He needs to know these jobs are earned. Plouffe certainly was stinking up the joint. He got a job handed to him cuz there was no one else to turn to and he stopped swinging at crap and he grabbed the job with both hands. He fixed it in less than a month of full time duty... Velencia had over a year and it was getting worse. Still not fixed!


2. I find it almost ridiculous to think that Justin Morneau with $23 million left on his contract is going to be traded, especially with his current struggles and what appears to be some other injury (probably due to wear and tear of playing MORE THAN HE SHOULD). Look at his June numbers.




Can't argue with this too loudly. You may be right. However, your prophecy is much more self fulfilling if you kick him in the nuts. If Morneau gets Plouffe hot in July... A former MVP may change GM opinions. You want to give Velencia that chance to do a Plouffe but you won't give it to the guy who actually did it before. I cant see your thinking here. The Twins could also eat some contract to make a deal better. Eating some money to get a pitching prospect in return is better than eating some money because his splits are looking rough and you toss him aside. 14 million and a platoon. You might as well cut him cuz he will be worthless at that point.

3. I fail to see how doing this negates the Twins future in any way, especially given 2 above. Valencia is not simply some terrible player. And he has been very good against lefties. Morneau is a fundamentally different player post July 2010.




Velen is is not a terrible player he just plays terribly. You can call Velencia up... Let him fill the water jugs... I don't care. Velencia being called up does not negate the Twins future. He played his way into the water jug role. Velencia means very little in the baseball world right now.

You negate the Twins future by:

A. Pulling the plug on any future trade value for a former MVP.
B. If Morneau has no current trade value. He's a 2013 Twin for sure and hes making 14 million. Doesn't take a rocket scientist or zookeeper or radio DJ or any other smart person to realize that Justin Morneau is playing 1B next year. So a platoon isn't wise.

4. It always strikes me as odd when people poo-poo moves that might mean 1 win in a season (though I am not sure this would only be worth 1 win). If one does that 5 times, that's 5 wins.




I'm willing to make moves that cost us 20 wins a year. I poo poo ideas that prevent us from improving our pitching or overall team in general.

Patience... Can we just get through the trade deadline. Before you start tossing the cargo of Cinnamon, Black Pepper or Silk overboard before you reach port on the trade route.

maybe this got lost in the formatting, but I fail to see how trading Morneau right now would be a good move for either the present or future of this franchise. With 20some million still on that contract, no organization is going to give up much for the hope of him returning to spring of 2010 form. You may as well hold on to him and let him work through those issues... If he does, someone will trade something very nice for him at the deadline next year. If he doesn't, the worst you are doing is giving up a chance to aquire another team's Rene Tosani.

Brock Beauchamp
06-27-2012, 07:31 AM
I fixed that post for you, Brian.

Riverbrian
06-27-2012, 08:08 AM
I fixed that post for you, Brian.

Thank You... I had a devil of a time trying to make it work on IPAD. Much appreciated.


maybe this got lost in the formatting, but I fail to see how trading Morneau right now would be a good move for either the present or future of this franchise. With 20some million still on that contract, no organization is going to give up much for the hope of him returning to spring of 2010 form. You may as well hold on to him and let him work through those issues... If he does, someone will trade something very nice for him at the deadline next year. If he doesn't, the worst you are doing is giving up a chance to aquire another team's Rene Tosani.

If he has no trade value. He will be a Twin next year cuz he won't be cut. In that scenerio. You are absolutely right. Might as well see if he can work out his lefty pitcher kinks.

Here's a question... In your opinion... Would his trade value change at all if the Twins said they would pay the remainder of his contract? The whole thing.

Brock Beauchamp
06-27-2012, 08:11 AM
Here's a question... In your opinion... Would his trade value change at all if the Twins said they would pay the remainder of his contract? The whole thing.

Yes, but not enough to bring in a prospect worth the money. Teams aren't going to leap at the opportunity to pick up a platoon option at first base, which is what Justin is to a contending team right now. I think the only thing to do with Justin is to wait, hope for the best, and then reevaluate your options in the offseason.

Curt
06-27-2012, 08:55 AM
I understand the frustration with Morneau and Valencia. What I do not get is the optimism for Parmelee. At best, he looks to be a .250 hitter with 10-15 homer per year power. More likely, not even that. Valencia has shown he can hit lefties. Morneau is still hitting righties. As a hitter, Parmelee reminds me of Tom Kelly or, more optimistically, Butch Wynegar.

I don't know about a Morneau/Valencia platoon but I like the thinking. When mature major leaguers have specialized skills you exploit them to their fullest, when they have weaknesses, limit the opportunities for the opponent to exploit them. Whether you like the guy or not is pretty far down on the checklist.

Brock Beauchamp
06-27-2012, 09:01 AM
I understand the frustration with Morneau and Valencia. What I do not get is the optimism for Parmelee. At best, he looks to be a .250 hitter with 10-15 homer per year power. More likely, not even that. Parmelee reminds me of Tom Kelly or, more optimistically, Butch Wynegar.

Parmelee is still 24 years old. After struggling in AA at 22 years old, he's starting to hit for more power again. In a brief AAA stint this season, he was raking. He's a good OBP guy with good patience. If he develops even middling power to go with it, he might be a viable option at first.

Again, he's only 24. If it comes down to a 24 year old who needs repetition and seasoning versus a 28 year old miscreant, you choose to give the ABs to the young guy with upside. No one is saying Parmelee is going to take over the world, we're simply saying that he deserves a chance to improve by playing every day in AAA. If he falls on his face, so be it... But at least you'll know what you have in the kid.

Curt
06-27-2012, 09:18 AM
Parmelee is still 24 years old. After struggling in AA at 22 years old, he's starting to hit for more power again. In a brief AAA stint this season, he was raking. He's a good OBP guy with good patience. If he develops even middling power to go with it, he might be a viable option at first.

Again, he's only 24. If it comes down to a 24 year old who needs repetition and seasoning versus a 28 year old miscreant, you choose to give the ABs to the young guy with upside. No one is saying Parmelee is going to take over the world, we're simply saying that he deserves a chance to improve by playing every day in AAA. If he falls on his face, so be it... But at least you'll know what you have in the kid.

Well, I think we agree though for different reasons. Parmelee should be in the minors, hopefully developing. Valencia is who he is. Use him (correctly) or lose him.

Brock Beauchamp
06-27-2012, 09:20 AM
Well, I think we agree though for different reasons. Parmelee should be in the minors, hopefully developing. Valencia is who he is. Use him (correctly) or lose him.

No, I think we're pretty much in complete agreement. I think Valencia should be in Minnesota, taking Parmelee's place while Chris gets reps in Rochester. That's your belief as well, no?

Curt
06-27-2012, 09:26 AM
No, I think we're pretty much in complete agreement. I think Valencia should be in Minnesota, taking Parmelee's place while Chris gets reps in Rochester. That's your belief as well, no?

Yes. Glad that is cleared up. :D

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-27-2012, 09:28 AM
Whatever marginal prospect the Twins could get for Morneau at this point is not worth the PR backlash the team will receive from fans.

I know there are some people who want to go with the "gut the team completely and aim for 2014" but in reality you can't do that, you need fans to continue to have a reason to tune into games, come to games and buy merchandise for the rest of 2012 and into 2013.

DPJ
06-27-2012, 09:35 AM
Whatever marginal prospect the Twins could get for Morneau at this point is not worth the PR backlash the team will receive from fans.

I know there are some people who want to go with the "gut the team completely and aim for 2014" but in reality you can't do that, you need fans to continue to have a reason to tune into games, come to games and buy merchandise for the rest of 2012 and into 2013.

You really think there would be a "PR backlash" for moving Morneau to better the team or get rid of his salary.

Fans aren't stupid, this is a bottom of the basement franchise right now and they won't be crawling themselves outta this hole for a couple years. Bettering the team should be the only goal this team has right now and if you have to trade some favorites then so be it.

Winning and winning quickly heals all.

jctwins
06-27-2012, 09:47 AM
Fans aren't stupid.

I would beg to differ. See last night's game thread re: TV coverage and I think that's enough said.

Riverbrian
06-27-2012, 09:50 AM
Yes, but not enough to bring in a prospect worth the money. Teams aren't going to leap at the opportunity to pick up a platoon option at first base, which is what Justin is to a contending team right now. I think the only thing to do with Justin is to wait, hope for the best, and then reevaluate your options in the offseason.

Waiting with Justin is exactly what I'm saying.

You say he won't bring in a prospect worth the 23 million dollar hit. Could be true right now... I don't know and I won't argue that.

However, you will be paying the 23 million regardless. His contract calls for it.

If you platoon him... You've made him a platoon player. Price $23 Million...

If you trade him and eat the entire contract... Price $23 million but maybe you get a prospect in return and you open up a job for Parmelee. You Spend the same money either way.

This team needs pitching. If we get the 16th rated prospect in an organization in return... That's OK... We need him.

Some people have said that the Red Sox got nothing in return for Youklis. Yeah Maybe.... But if Zach Stewart was with the Twins... He'd be starting Friday or Saturday against the Royals.

We Needs ARMS!!!!!!!!


I understand the frustration with Morneau and Valencia. What I do not get is the optimism for Parmelee. At best, he looks to be a .250 hitter with 10-15 homer per year power. More likely, not even that. Valencia has shown he can hit lefties. Morneau is still hitting righties. As a hitter, Parmelee reminds me of Tom Kelly or, more optimistically, Butch Wynegar.

I don't know about a Morneau/Valencia platoon but I like the thinking. When mature major leaguers have specialized skills you exploit them to their fullest, when they have weaknesses, limit the opportunities for the opponent to exploit them. Whether you like the guy or not is pretty far down on the checklist.

Velencia lost his job to no one! He had a job and he lost it all by himself. He was given every opportunity to keep it and he dropped it. Will Middlebrooks didn't show up and take his job. He simply lost his job at a time when the Twins did not have a decent option.

The Twins said... They would rather have nobody play 3B than trot Velencia out there again. If this doesn't speak loudly to the observing fan. I don't know what will.

Platooning him with a 14 million dollar ex MVP is about as crazy as it gets no matter what the splits say.

Parmelee needs to play every day... He's the closest thing we have to a future 1B or DH in Minnesota. Send him Down in the next 30 seconds or so please!

DPJ
06-27-2012, 09:54 AM
Platooning him with a 14 million dollar ex MVP is about as crazy as it gets no matter what the splits say.

So let Morneau continue to fail away against LHP instead of calling up an enteral option that can cheaply fill a role on this team?

WHy don't you just say you don't like Valencia and don't wanna see him called back up?

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-27-2012, 10:22 AM
So let Morneau continue to fail away against LHP instead of calling up an enteral option that can cheaply fill a role on this team?

WHy don't you just say you don't like Valencia and don't wanna see him called back up?
I'd prefer Morneau takes this year to re-learn to hit lefties or whatever he needs to do to be ready for 2013.

CDog
06-27-2012, 10:23 AM
Been around the game for awhile. I recognize it when I see it.

Jeez that sounded egotistical... Didn't mean to sound that way.

Defensively... Let's just say... There was no dirt on his uniform. Watched him make routine boots too many times because he wasn't engaged enough to move his feet a couple of steps. That's taking your job for granted. Especially with your boss named Ron Gardenhire.

Offensively a year straight of chasing the outside pitch without fixing it. If you don't stop swinging at that. The pitchers will keep throwing it. If you do make contact it's a weak grounder or pop up everytime. After awhile it's clear... The kid isn't attempting to adjust and doing so without consequence. He's a good hitter. The MLB fastball wasn't too much for him. The mental part is.

Not being successful at making adjustments isn't necessarily because of being unwilling to make them. Failing isn't necessarily the result of not caring. And not caring isn't even the same as taking for granted. I just think it's a pretty big leap to put that specific mentality on someone from the amount of observation we're able to do.

Curt
06-27-2012, 10:42 AM
The Twins said... They would rather have nobody play 3B than trot Velencia out there again. If this doesn't speak loudly to the observing fan. I don't know what will.



Don't confuse my saying that the Twins' should exploit the talent that Valencia has with being a fan of his. I'm not. That the Twins' don't think much of him doesn't impress me at all.


Platooning him with a 14 million dollar ex MVP is about as crazy as it gets no matter what the splits say.

The only thing I agree with is "ex MVP."


He's the closest thing we have to a future 1B or DH in Minnesota.

Now you start to see why what the Twins' think doesn't impress me.


Send him Down in the next 30 seconds or so please!

Finally, something we agree on.

DPJ
06-27-2012, 10:45 AM
I'd prefer Morneau takes this year to re-learn to hit lefties or whatever he needs to do to be ready for 2013.

Ready for 2013, what's happening in 2013?

twinscowboysbulls
06-27-2012, 01:06 PM
Who is Danny Valencia?

snepp
06-27-2012, 03:13 PM
Who is Danny Valencia?

Maybe you'd recognize him as Danny Valenshia.

Riverbrian
06-27-2012, 04:12 PM
So let Morneau continue to fail away against LHP instead of calling up an enteral option that can cheaply fill a role on this team?

WHy don't you just say you don't like Valencia and don't wanna see him called back up?

Here is what everyone has to come to grips with. If Morneau is not traded at the deadline or off season. He is our starting 1B in 2013. He can flail or fail or choose to bunt baseballs with his helmet or hit majestic home runs 3 times every week for the rest of 2012. If he is not traded... He will be our starting 1B. No Splits will change that. Only injury or trade will change that. If Morneau is going to be our starting 1B in 2013... AND he will be... You let him work things out in 2012 and see if he can get back to pre-concussion territory. For clarification. I'm hopeful that the Twins move Morneau so a younger player can play 1B. Until that happens let's protect the investment.

On the subject of Velencia... Yeah... I'm not a fan... I don't like watching professional players half ass it. He deserved his demotion... However, I'm not giving up on him. I hope he figures it out in Rochester... I really do. He hasn't yet. Maybe some day.


Not being successful at making adjustments isn't necessarily because of being unwilling to make them. Failing isn't necessarily the result of not caring. And not caring isn't even the same as taking for granted. I just think it's a pretty big leap to put that specific mentality on someone from the amount of observation we're able to do.

I won't dispute this Cdog. I won't claim to have any knowledge of what he does in the clubhouse... How he responds to coaching. What he works on or doesn't work on. I just know that I grew increasingly frustrated as 2011 went on... Watching him routinely reach for grounders when a simple two step move would get him centered. 2012 was more of the same. I've coached many kids with the same lead feet. It's focus and the ability to maintain it and I've seen the same kids who play that way in the field are typically the same kids who can't work the kinks out of hitches at the plate or laying off pitches they can't do anything with. Those same kids will also be disapointed that things are not going their way and will tell you that performing well is important to them but yet...

Anyway, yeah... I took that leap and I could be wrong. Something happened... He was bounced from the Majors without a replacement for him. Message on something from someone has been sent. I think my guess is somewhat educated but it's just a guess.


Don't confuse my saying that the Twins' should exploit the talent that Valencia has with being a fan of his. I'm not. That the Twins' don't think much of him doesn't impress me at all.

The only thing I agree with is "ex MVP."



Now you start to see why what the Twins' think doesn't impress me.



Finally, something we agree on.


I'm not confusing your convictions for Velencia Love. I gotta a pretty good grey area detector. I've said this before... Live by the stats... Die by the stats. Baseball is so much more. I read the stats and I understand the stats and I think stats have their place but Baseball is so much more.
Can anyone please explain Trevor Plouffe this past month with past metrics. You can't...
Explain Adrian Gonzalez this year. You can't...
Pick a player any player and a majority of them have OPS+ numbers that can bounce around to the point of almost uselessness and nearly everyone who quotes splits or stats like gospel can't explain the data swings from Month to Month or Year to Year. Baseball is so much more. .

The discussion isn't Velencia in my mind... I could care less about Danny and the baseball world feels the same way. Call him up... I don't care... To me this issue is about Morneau... Is it possible that he's done and never coming back. YES... Is it too soon to make that call... YES... Why do I feel this way... Because OPS+ Numbers do bounce around like a pinball from month to month and year to year.

I love this site and I love these discussions... Just read the disagreements between multiple people on this site and try to put it in the context of a GM or Manager. Almost every thread has disagreements and varied opinions. Some people want Terry Ryan fired... Some are smiling ear to ear over his return. Some People Want Bill Smith hung by his toenails and dipped slowly into pirahna infested waters and some think he was handed a bum situation. Some people want Gardy fired and some want him over for dinner.

Just imagine... How as a GM... You have to block all that out and keep your focus on getting better according to your gameplan. GM's are not going to bench Morneau and his contract, just like GM's are not going to bench Soriano in Chicago or Youkillis in Boston. The Minute they do... They just pissed the money away. You can disrespect the Twins organization all you want. The Truth is... The Twins are pretty much like the other ones.

Morneau will be traded or he's starting for us in 2012. It's an investment and it's a large one. You work with it.

Shane Wahl
06-27-2012, 04:39 PM
Can everyone start spelling Twins players' names right?

Shane Wahl
06-27-2012, 04:49 PM
I guess I just don't understand the expectations from Morneau right now. It feels like reality must be faced at some point. If he can be traded to some sucker team this year, that's fine, but if one thinks playing him against lefties and batting terribly is the way to increase his value, one is nuts. A proper use of Morneau right now and he is likely hitting .250 and who knows how other numbers are affected by time off. I have not looked at his days off and if they were against righties or lefties at all, but I imagine some have been against right-handed pitching since Gardenhire tends to not care about such things.

PseudoSABR
06-27-2012, 05:01 PM
Can everyone start spelling Twins players' names right?I think RP should institute a word filter that corrects all the possible misspellings of all the Twins players to their correct spellings. It may take some time, but it'd take the heavy weight of spelling away from the heathens.

PseudoSABR
06-27-2012, 05:02 PM
Parmelee is still 24 years old. After struggling in AA at 22 years old, he's starting to hit for more power again. In a brief AAA stint this season, he was raking. He's a good OBP guy with good patience. If he develops even middling power to go with it, he might be a viable option at first.

Again, he's only 24. If it comes down to a 24 year old who needs repetition and seasoning versus a 28 year old miscreant, you choose to give the ABs to the young guy with upside. No one is saying Parmelee is going to take over the world, we're simply saying that he deserves a chance to improve by playing every day in AAA. If he falls on his face, so be it... But at least you'll know what you have in the kid.Right. There was also word that he was remaking his swing over past several years, I'm not sure we really know what Parmelee's ceiling or floor is because of that...

70charger
06-27-2012, 07:03 PM
I guess I just don't understand the expectations from Morneau right now. It feels like reality must be faced at some point. If he can be traded to some sucker team this year, that's fine, but if one thinks playing him against lefties and batting terribly is the way to increase his value, one is nuts. A proper use of Morneau right now and he is likely hitting .250 and who knows how other numbers are affected by time off. I have not looked at his days off and if they were against righties or lefties at all, but I imagine some have been against right-handed pitching since Gardenhire tends to not care about such things.

Yep. And that point isn't a couple months into Morneau's first season back from a 2 year layoff.

It seems that you don't believe that Morneau can ever hit lefties again. Why? I saw one of the best hitters in the game pre-2011 in Justin Morneau. Isn't it a far more reasonable assumption that he can work on his swing against lefties and figure out what he lost during his time off than that he will simply never be good against lefties again? Yes, he just looks confused out there against lefties so far this year, and yes he should be getting more days off, especially timed against certain pitchers. But platooning him? No way.

twinsnorth49
06-27-2012, 07:41 PM
Yep. And that point isn't a couple months into Morneau's first season back from a 2 year layoff.

It seems that you don't believe that Morneau can ever hit lefties again. Why? I saw one of the best hitters in the game pre-2011 in Justin Morneau. Isn't it a far more reasonable assumption that he can work on his swing against lefties and figure out what he lost during his time off than that he will simply never be good against lefties again? Yes, he just looks confused out there against lefties so far this year, and yes he should be getting more days off, especially timed against certain pitchers. But platooning him? No way.

Yeah, I don't get the never will hit lefties again sentiment either, especially considering the time off he has had and the fact he was all-league just before that. His timing is off, his pitch selection is off which is exacerbated by him rarely getting into good hitting counts, he's always behind and starts chasing high fastballs and sliders. To think he can't sort it out is confusing, his success against RHP is proof he can still catch up with any pitch and work a count, I'd bet on him doing it than not.

Nick Nelson
06-28-2012, 01:04 AM
Morneau strikes me as a master of making adjustments. When he first came into the league, he was awful against lefties (.201 AVG in '05)... a few years later, he was beyond respectable against them (.284 AVG in '08). When he first came into the league, he was considered a defensive liability... a few years later he was one of the finer defensive first basemen in the league. From 2006 to 2010, opposing pitchers constantly tried to figure him out and he kept on beating their adjustments. He was one of the most consistent power hitters in the AL during that span.

Yes, Morneau is a mess against southpaws right now and slumping in general. But I'm willing to believe that he can ultimately make the adjustments to get back on track. Assuming he's healthy. Of course that's no easy assumption.

Shane Wahl
06-28-2012, 01:27 AM
In deference to vast majority judgment, I will let this go away. I will let the sub .400 OPS of Justin Morneau against lefties wander away into the stratosphere of Danny Valencia hatred (it is VALENCIA-that is how you spell it). I will let 2010 and 2011 concussions to have never happened. OOh, and I will say "who needs wrists when swinging a bat."

Let's watch Morneau's trade value RISE as he continues to suck ROYALLY against lefties!!!!!

Brock Beauchamp
06-28-2012, 06:50 AM
into the stratosphere of Danny Valencia hatred (it is VALENCIA-that is how you spell it).

For the hell of it, I just checked this thread. Valencia was spelled correctly every time except once, when snepp intentionally mis-spelled it to poke fun of Bert's inability to pronounce his name correctly.

diehardtwinsfan
06-28-2012, 07:25 AM
In deference to vast majority judgment, I will let this go away. I will let the sub .400 OPS of Justin Morneau against lefties wander away into the stratosphere of Danny Valencia hatred (it is VALENCIA-that is how you spell it). I will let 2010 and 2011 concussions to have never happened. OOh, and I will say "who needs wrists when swinging a bat."

Let's watch Morneau's trade value RISE as he continues to suck ROYALLY against lefties!!!!!

Do you really think other GMs are foolish enough to not notice that Justin is no longer playing against lefties and will therefore overpay?

Face the facts, we won't be getting much if anything for Morneau at this trade deadline. This is due to his salary and having a year and a half yet to play. You may as well be patient with him, because that is the ONLY opportunity this team has to get something decent from him... We don't need another #5 pitcher upside guy.

Riverbrian
06-28-2012, 08:24 AM
For the hell of it, I just checked this thread. Valencia was spelled correctly every time except once, when snepp intentionally mis-spelled it to poke fun of Bert's inability to pronounce his name correctly.

Actually, I spelled it wrong a bunch of times.

I was too lazy to move two steps to my left and get centered on his spelling. I admit it.

Brock Beauchamp
06-28-2012, 08:28 AM
Actually, I spelled it wrong a bunch of times.

I was too lazy to move two steps to my left and get centered on his spelling. I admit it.

Huh. Well, I missed the errors so they must not have been too egregious.

edit: Hah, I searched via find and typed "val". I didn't expect anyone to get the second letter wrong. :D

twinsnorth49
06-28-2012, 08:58 AM
In deference to vast majority judgment, I will let this go away. I will let the sub .400 OPS of Justin Morneau against lefties wander away into the stratosphere of Danny Valencia hatred (it is VALENCIA-that is how you spell it). I will let 2010 and 2011 concussions to have never happened. OOh, and I will say "who needs wrists when swinging a bat."

Let's watch Morneau's trade value RISE as he continues to suck ROYALLY against lefties!!!!!

Do his wrists suddenly hurt against lefties? They seem to work fine against righties. What a strange injury.

twinscowboysbulls
06-28-2012, 01:48 PM
Maybe you'd recognize him as Danny Valenshia.

Nope, not ringing any bells.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-28-2012, 02:56 PM
I like the suggestions merely because regular AAA ABs are better than spot starts in the MLB. It's better to give the important ABs to someone who may actually have a future in the organization (Parmelee) than someone who doesn't (Valencia). I also think Plouffe could use an occasional break at 3B and I don't think Carroll is really a good substitute at the corner. Don't get me wrong, a platoon at first is a good idea for Danny, but there are bigger reasons leading to exactly why he should be promoted.

diehardtwinsfan
06-28-2012, 03:12 PM
I like the suggestions merely because regular AAA ABs are better than spot starts in the MLB. It's better to give the important ABs to someone who may actually have a future in the organization (Parmelee) than someone who doesn't (Valencia). I also think Plouffe could use an occasional break at 3B and I don't think Carroll is really a good substitute at the corner. Don't get me wrong, a platoon at first is a good idea for Danny, but there are bigger reasons leading to exactly why he should be promoted.


Danny hit at every level of the minors and continued to do so in his first year in the bigs... His sophomore season was "unlucky" as well. I'm not sure anyone should be giving up on him as he could be cheap/average production in the linup for a few years if he adjusts and figures things out. I have no problems with him playing every day in AAA if he won't do it in ML... and with Parmalee, he's a better prospect. I don't care where he's playing, but he should be doing it every day.