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PMKI
06-23-2012, 10:40 PM
According to MLBtraderumors.com "Twins‬
Assistant GM Rob Antony told Darren Wolfson of 1500 ESPN (via Twitter (https://twitter.com/DarrenWolfson/status/216619014611410944)
) that he'll engage Ryan Doumit
's agent in extension talks soon."

jorgenswest
06-23-2012, 10:51 PM
Doesn't seem wise. Guaranteed to overpay.

List of potential free agent catchers from Baseball Prospectus. (* = team option)

Koyie Hill
Chris Iannetta *
Russell Martin
Jeff Mathis
Brian McCann *
Miguel Montero
Mike Napoli
Wil Nieves
Miguel Olivo *
Ronny Paulino
A.J. Pierzynski
Humberto Quintero
David Ross
Carlos Ruiz *
Yorvit Torrealba

The list doesn't include DH possibilities. The Twins would be wise to wait.

PMKI
06-23-2012, 11:00 PM
I agree. I would rather try to trade him for some decent prospects. Than maybe we can sign him back in the offseason.

notoriousgod71
06-24-2012, 01:10 AM
Sign Dave Ross to be our backup catcher although I don't know why Atlanta wouldn't resign him.

glunn
06-24-2012, 01:51 AM
Doumit currently has the fifth highest OPS on the team, and can play first base and outfield if the need arises. He has made some clutch hits and is on track for 20+ home runs. At 31 years old, he likely has some prime years left. If he could be extended for 2 more years on reasonable terms, I would think that would be a good idea for him and for the team.

Brandon
06-24-2012, 06:54 AM
He's worth the extention as he is a capable C and DH. He allows Mauer and Morneau to rotate positions. He also allows Mauer to stay behind the plate as he ages the next few years. and by that I mean Mauer can catch 100 games and DH and play some 1b another 50 games.

He is worth a 2-3 year extention in the 3.5 - 5 million per year range.

biggentleben
06-24-2012, 07:56 AM
Sign Dave Ross to be our backup catcher although I don't know why Atlanta wouldn't resign him.

Don't you dare take away The Boss! He'll likely resign, though. He's vested in the area enough that he took less money two years ago to stay in Atlanta.

one_eyed_jack
06-24-2012, 08:52 AM
He's worth the extention as he is a capable C and DH. He allows Mauer and Morneau to rotate positions. He also allows Mauer to stay behind the plate as he ages the next few years. and by that I mean Mauer can catch 100 games and DH and play some 1b another 50 games.

He is worth a 2-3 year extention in the 3.5 - 5 million per year range.

---I'm with you. Hopefully it will be something towards the lower end of that range as the upper end (3 yr/$15 mil) is getting a bit steep for me.

jorgenswest
06-24-2012, 09:45 AM
Why would Doumit sign a deal at the lower end? Players don't give up free agency midseason to sign a reasonable deal.

What would motivate Doumit to give up his free agent rights and sign midseason? He would give it up if he is confident that the deal was better than anything he might get in the winter. The only way to do that is to overpay in dollars and years. Do not sign an over 30 back up catcher with injury history to a multiyear deal.

Twins Fan From Afar
06-24-2012, 09:58 AM
I'm not completely seeing the wisdom here, unless it is on the lower range of the financial spectrum. Yes, Doumit has been good this year on a bad team, yes he has had clutch hits, and yes he has stayed healthy.

But for 2013 or 2014 I would expect Chris Herrmann, currently at AA and playing all right (though not tearing it up right now) to take on the back-up catcher role. Herrmann can also play left field. He's also a better catcher than Doumit, incidentally. He has to be added to the 40 man after this season. He hopefully can do 70-80 percent of Doumit's job for about 10 percent of the salary. On a team that should be moving in the direction of trading veterans for prospects and giving young guys a shot, I'm not sure that Doumit makes a whole lot of sense.

So, if the Twins do lock up Doumit for the next 2-3 seasons, I hope that the contract is such that Doumit remains a tradeable asset.

Jeremy Nygaard
06-24-2012, 10:39 AM
I heard the interview and the discussion that preceeded it. What I gathered was that Doumit would probably rather extend than be traded. He really enjoys being a Twin. The terms that were thrown out were 2 yrs/$10m. (I was thinking $8.5ish would be more reasonable.)

I also considered how that would affect Herrmann, but thats a 2014 problem, where Doumit could have greater trade value, if the Twins aren't competing yet.

When asked if the team would buy or sell, Antony wouldn't commit, but said whatever helps the team in 2013 and beyond.

Twins Fan From Afar
06-24-2012, 10:40 AM
I heard the interview and the discussion that preceeded it. What I gathered was that Doumit would probably rather extend than be traded. He really enjoys being a Twin. The terms that were thrown out were 2 yrs/$10m. (I was thinking $8.5ish would be more reasonable.)

I also considered how that would affect Herrmann, but thats a 2014 problem, where Doumit could have greater trade value, if the Twins aren't competing yet.

When asked if the team would buy or sell, Antony wouldn't commit, but said whatever helps the team in 2013 and beyond.

Thanks -- I didn't hear the interview and appreciate the context.

Fire Dan Gladden
06-24-2012, 11:00 AM
I heard the interview and the discussion that preceeded it. What I gathered was that Doumit would probably rather extend than be traded. He really enjoys being a Twin. The terms that were thrown out were 2 yrs/$10m. (I was thinking $8.5ish would be more reasonable.)

I also considered how that would affect Herrmann, but thats a 2014 problem, where Doumit could have greater trade value, if the Twins aren't competing yet.

When asked if the team would buy or sell, Antony wouldn't commit, but said whatever helps the team in 2013 and beyond.

Doumit's bat and flexibility are worth a resign. 2 yrs at $8-10m works for me.

IdahoPilgrim
06-24-2012, 11:36 AM
If he likes playing here, would he be willing to sign for less than he could get as a free agent? If so, it's worth looking at, but let's just make sure we don't overpay. He's making $3M this year, and I would be hard-pressed to offer more than $4M, maybe $4.5M, per year for a couple of years. He is replaceable.

Highabove
06-24-2012, 11:56 AM
He has had injury issues in the past.

greengoblinrulz
06-24-2012, 12:34 PM
Im fine with resigning him as we will still try to trade Capps, Liriano, Span, Morneau among others. Gotta keep someone.
Calling him the backup catcher is just wrong as Drew Butera will be the backup to Joe as long as he feels. When he doesnt feel like it, he'll tell Gardy and we'll figure something else upl.

Brock Beauchamp
06-24-2012, 12:36 PM
Calling him the backup catcher is just wrong as Drew Butera will be the backup to Joe as long as he feels.

I just threw up a little.

Correction. I just threw up a lot.

Fire Dan Gladden
06-26-2012, 08:11 AM
If he likes playing here, would he be willing to sign for less than he could get as a free agent? If so, it's worth looking at, but let's just make sure we don't overpay. He's making $3M this year, and I would be hard-pressed to offer more than $4M, maybe $4.5M, per year for a couple of years. He is replaceable.

I'm not sure he's "that" replaceable. He brings a decent stick, and he can play multiple positions. How many backup catchers in the league can claim that?

Brock Beauchamp
06-26-2012, 09:09 AM
I'm not sure he's "that" replaceable. He brings a decent stick, and he can play multiple positions. How many backup catchers in the league can claim that?

This. Catchers that can OPS at a .750 clip are quite rare. Backup catchers who can do it are Loch Ness Monster-esque.

fetch
06-26-2012, 09:15 AM
If he's really willing to sign a 2 year, 10 million deal they should be sprinting to get that done

zenser
06-26-2012, 09:23 AM
I think resigning Doumit would be a good idea. Looking at the list previously posted and assuming McCann stays in Atlanta. The only one I would want is Miguel Montero. I would also want Napoli but he will be too overpriced for us. The rest are way past their prime or never had a prime. Koyie Hill, Jeff Mathis, Yorvit Torrealba, Ronny Paulino, Humberto Quintero??? Wouldn't Drew Butera fall into that catergory too? Can't hit a lick, can't run, and calls a good game. Having Doumit either in the lineup as a DH, or behind the plate, or in the OF sounds like better options than the rest of these guys.

Brock Beauchamp
06-26-2012, 09:25 AM
If he's really willing to sign a 2 year, 10 million deal they should be sprinting to get that done

I'd do that deal twice if I was the Twins.

Ultima Ratio
06-26-2012, 11:59 AM
I'm a little torn on this. Doumit is known for a better than average bat and horrible defense no matter where he plays, thus he was supposed to by DHing and backup catching. I never want to see him in RF or 1B (or anywhere else). He's also know as injury prone (ask the pirates)-- he's already nursing a calf strain and has hardly been run out to catch every day. This makes it all the more judicious to sign again as only a backup C and get the majority of his time at DH. Yet, there are better DHs to be had. So, do we like him because he's primarily a DH with some C versatility such that we don't have to see Butera in the lineup 2a couple times a week? I'm taking a wait and see approach for another few weeks, and I think TR and the front office are doing the same, making sure this one year make-good contract (to show he can be healthy for a season) is good for the Twins going forward.

Thrylos
06-26-2012, 12:16 PM
Not sure how I feel about this either... For one, unless either Butera is gone or Gardenhire is willing to PH Doumit for him in games like last night's (or, of course, unless Gardenhire is gone, but not sure that I believe in miracles) this team will not get enough value from Doumit for what they pay him. The other this is that this would be a totally schizophrenic decision, if you look it in the context that this team is having a rookie who is the worse hitter on the team keep playing SS. You either go wholesale young and give people like Herrmann a chance or you go veteran. This half-rear end approach is bothersome.
So if Doumit is going to be a UT player is he worth $4-5 mil a season? Probably not, but this is the team that paid Punto about that much...

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 12:36 PM
I'm not completely seeing the wisdom here, unless it is on the lower range of the financial spectrum. Yes, Doumit has been good this year on a bad team, yes he has had clutch hits, and yes he has stayed healthy.

But for 2013 or 2014 I would expect Chris Herrmann, currently at AA and playing all right (though not tearing it up right now) to take on the back-up catcher role. Herrmann can also play left field. He's also a better catcher than Doumit, incidentally. He has to be added to the 40 man after this season. He hopefully can do 70-80 percent of Doumit's job for about 10 percent of the salary. On a team that should be moving in the direction of trading veterans for prospects and giving young guys a shot, I'm not sure that Doumit makes a whole lot of sense.

So, if the Twins do lock up Doumit for the next 2-3 seasons, I hope that the contract is such that Doumit remains a tradeable asset.


I agree with what you are saying, of course, but Herrmann is likely not going to break camp with the Twins next year (though he is starting to right the BB/K ship over the past two weeks) and so there is that hole there that is not reasonably filled with any other C free agent for a better price. Also, I don't really have a problem with a Mauer-Doumit-Herrmann group on the roster instead of having Drew Butera involved as anything else but AAA help for upcoming pitchers. The first two are injury risks and all three can play multiple positions (I wonder if Herrmann can add RF and/or 1B). That especially makes sense if Morneau is not with the Twins in 2013 (and more likely certainly gone by 2014). Herrmann is also hitting lefties strangely well in a SSS at New Britain (for what it's worth).

I guess I would prefer overpaying for a one-year extension (even at $6-7 million) instead of a two-year extension ($8-10 million), but whatever. If he likes playing for the Twins, keep him.

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 12:47 PM
Not sure how I feel about this either... For one, unless either Butera is gone or Gardenhire is willing to PH Doumit for him in games like last night's (or, of course, unless Gardenhire is gone, but not sure that I believe in miracles) this team will not get enough value from Doumit for what they pay him. The other this is that this would be a totally schizophrenic decision, if you look it in the context that this team is having a rookie who is the worse hitter on the team keep playing SS. You either go wholesale young and give people like Herrmann a chance or you go veteran. This half-rear end approach is bothersome.
So if Doumit is going to be a UT player is he worth $4-5 mil a season? Probably not, but this is the team that paid Punto about that much...

I agree that it is pretty murky, but characterizing Doumit as a utility player is not really accurate. I wouldn't call the primary DH and backup catcher a utility guy. And his value as such is probably a bit more than $5 million a season. It looks like it is this year at least.

As far as Dozier goes, outside of Florimon, I am not sure what else there is to do (Casilla is not an improvement).

Twins Fan From Afar
06-26-2012, 12:53 PM
I agree with what you are saying, of course, but Herrmann is likely not going to break camp with the Twins next year (though he is starting to right the BB/K ship over the past two weeks) and so there is that hole there that is not reasonably filled with any other C free agent for a better price. Also, I don't really have a problem with a Mauer-Doumit-Herrmann group on the roster instead of having Drew Butera involved as anything else but AAA help for upcoming pitchers. The first two are injury risks and all three can play multiple positions (I wonder if Herrmann can add RF and/or 1B). That especially makes sense if Morneau is not with the Twins in 2013 (and more likely certainly gone by 2014). Herrmann is also hitting lefties strangely well in a SSS at New Britain (for what it's worth).

I guess I would prefer overpaying for a one-year extension (even at $6-7 million) instead of a two-year extension ($8-10 million), but whatever. If he likes playing for the Twins, keep him.

Yea, agreed that Herrmann might not be ready to start 2013 in Minnesota, so it's certainly worth considering the set of conditions under which Doumit both stays and his contract remains tradeable.

It's kind of crazy to think that next season this team could be spending $28 million on the catching position alone.

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 01:05 PM
Yea, agreed that Herrmann might not be ready to start 2013 in Minnesota, so it's certainly worth considering the set of conditions under which Doumit both stays and his contract remains tradeable.

It's kind of crazy to think that next season this team could be spending $28 million on the catching position alone.

Well it isn't the "catching position alone" given that they are both going to be in the lineup together most of the time. Also, with regard to having Mauer-Doumit-Herrmann all on the roster . . . it seems less odd if one considers it from the best 13 position players angle and adds in the possibility that A: Joe Benson and Rene Tosoni may not be MLB serviceable until ???, B: someone from this Willingham-Span-Revere OF might be traded, and C: Plouffe isn't likely headed back to the OF. It's possible to have a bench with Herrmann and Valencia on it next year, which might make sense.

DPJ
06-26-2012, 01:11 PM
If the Twins were gonna be a playoff type team then hell yeah I'd sign him for 2/10. But it's not the backup catcher/DH is gonna make or break the Twins the next couple seasons as they rebuild. He's a nice piece to have around, but that shouldn't stand in the way exploring his market this trade deadline and moving him his ass if the deal is right.

fetch
06-26-2012, 01:18 PM
Assuming wins are worth 4 million or so per then Doumit is definitely worth it (so was Punto by the way). Plus he would definitely be a desirable asset in a trade with that type of deal.

Twins Fan From Afar
06-26-2012, 01:21 PM
Well it isn't the "catching position alone" given that they are both going to be in the lineup together most of the time. Also, with regard to having Mauer-Doumit-Herrmann all on the roster . . . it seems less odd if one considers it from the best 13 position players angle and adds in the possibility that A: Joe Benson and Rene Tosoni may not be MLB serviceable until ???, B: someone from this Willingham-Span-Revere OF might be traded, and C: Plouffe isn't likely headed back to the OF. It's possible to have a bench with Herrmann and Valencia on it next year, which might make sense.

Good points. I should note that from what I have seen Herrmann is pretty decent in left field, and of course has a good arm. A roster with Mauer, Doumit and Herrmann certainly provides a lot of flexibility for the manager without the risk that that day's catcher is going to be hitting .170.

Thrylos
06-26-2012, 01:24 PM
As far as Dozier goes, outside of Florimon, I am not sure what else there is to do (Casilla is not an improvement).

Casilla is an improvement. He has been hitting better than Dozier and he has been the Twins' best IF fielder this season (and is second in the team in SB) :) And he is 27 and has 2 arbitration seasons left. The team needs to see whether Casilla is part of the long term solution or not at this point. He is just entering his prime. I never quite understood his treatment by the manager or some parts of the fan-base for that matter, compare to, let's say, the treatment of Dozier... He is 2 years older than Dozier.

Thrylos
06-26-2012, 01:28 PM
Yea, agreed that Herrmann might not be ready to start 2013 in Minnesota

Agreed :)

But my point is:

-Dozier is not ready to start in 2012 in Minnesota (maybe he could be in 2013,) and is starting.
-2/3 of the 2013 starting rotation will not be ready to start in Minnesota in 2013, but they will be starting.
-Signing to 2-year extension the teams' DH and maybe back up Catcher is not a priority (esp. for $5M a year), given the state of the rotation. Worse comes to worse, Morneau can be the DH and Parmelee (who is rotting on the bench for some weird reason, btw) the first baseman. And Gardy will play Butera as the back up C anyways...

DPJ
06-26-2012, 01:29 PM
Casilla is an improvement. He has been hitting better than Dozier and he has been the Twins' best IF fielder this season (and is second in the team in SB) :) And he is 27 and has 2 arbitration seasons left. The team needs to see whether Casilla is part of the long term solution or not at this point. He is just entering his prime. I never quite understood his treatment by the manager or some parts of the fan-base for that matter, compare to, let's say, the treatment of Dozier... He is 2 years older than Dozier.


Lets not make it seem like Casilla has been getting some type of shaft from the organization and the fan base. He's a 27 year old .251/.307/.335 career hitter who can't stay healthly and is a spotty defender at best.

Twins Fan From Afar
06-26-2012, 01:38 PM
Agreed :)

But my point is:

-Dozier is not ready to start in 2012 in Minnesota (maybe he could be in 2013,) and is starting.
-2/3 of the 2013 starting rotation will not be ready to start in Minnesota in 2013, but they will be starting.
-Signing to 2-year extension the teams' DH and maybe back up Catcher is not a priority (esp. for $5M a year), given the state of the rotation. Worse comes to worse, Morneau can be the DH and Parmelee (who is rotting on the bench for some weird reason, btw) the first baseman. And Gardy will play Butera as the back up C anyways...

I agree with all of that, thrylos. If this is a rebuild -- which it seems like it should be -- there's no shame in letting half a dozen "not ready for primetime" players figure it out next season up in Minnesota.

I think there's a big difference of opinion between fans (heck, probably between members of the front office) about what direction this team is going to take for 2013.

Thrylos
06-26-2012, 01:50 PM
Lets not make it seem like Casilla has been getting some type of shaft from the organization and the fan base. He's a 27 year old .251/.307/.335 career hitter who can't stay healthly and is a spotty defender at best.

Have you looked at Dozier's slash line recently or look at the defensive metrics of Casilla vs Dozier this season?

Shane Wahl
06-26-2012, 01:52 PM
Casilla is an improvement. He has been hitting better than Dozier and he has been the Twins' best IF fielder this season (and is second in the team in SB) :) And he is 27 and has 2 arbitration seasons left. The team needs to see whether Casilla is part of the long term solution or not at this point. He is just entering his prime. I never quite understood his treatment by the manager or some parts of the fan-base for that matter, compare to, let's say, the treatment of Dozier... He is 2 years older than Dozier.

Ok, I will temper my pro-Dozier/anti-Casilla attitude a little bit. But A: Casilla is almost 3 years older and has had significant playing time given to him. The problem is that he either A: gets hurt, B: hits decent, but becomes a dunder-head plenty in the field, or C: performs well in the field, but hits poorly.

Also, you make the arbitration statement as though a few million bucks is meaningless to this team, but clearly it is not given the 2012 payroll. I think the decision not to pay what Casilla will be due (about $2 million, correct?) next season has already been made, unless playing Carroll is meant to make Carroll trade-bait somehow this year (two-year deal makes that unlikely). And that is probably the correct decision if they go about replacing him on the roster next year with Pedro Florimon (only 6 months older than Dozier) for $450k or whatever. Trimming that kind of money twice (Burton?) can mean a $3 million difference in SP value.

That all said, it might be best for Dozier to go back to Rochester until August or even September.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 01:53 PM
Have you looked at Dozier's slash line recently or look at the defensive metrics of Casilla vs Dozier this season?

44 games is not a large enough sample size to even take a look at UZR and other advanced metrics, also, Casilla plays 2B and Dozier plays SS. So comparing them in 2012 defensively is apples to oranges.

boney
06-26-2012, 05:05 PM
Mauer has been healthy all season (minus last weeks hiccup) but has still only started 31 out of 64 games at catcher. Maybe the Twins should be trying to find an everyday catcher for the future and not worry so much about resigning the backup to the not so everyday starter.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 05:09 PM
Mauer has been healthy all season (minus last weeks hiccup) but has still only started 31 out of 64 games at catcher. Maybe the Twins should be trying to find an everyday catcher for the future and not worry so much about resigning the backup to the not so everyday starter. Or you can just split him 50/50 with another catcher with a good bat see: Doumit. At this point with other injuries/ineffectiveness the Twins have been able to play Mauer at 1st/DH. I'm sure if pressed he could have started more than 31 games at C so far.

boney
06-26-2012, 07:29 PM
IMO, the Twins don't believe that Doumit is good enough to catch that many games a year. Butera wouldn't be here if that were the case. I wouldn't want to see either of them behind the plate for 80 games a year and I don't want any more reasons to waste a roster spot (imo) on someone that should have been a career minor leaguer in Butera.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-26-2012, 10:07 PM
IMO, the Twins don't believe that Doumit is good enough to catch that many games a year. Butera wouldn't be here if that were the case. I wouldn't want to see either of them behind the plate for 80 games a year and I don't want any more reasons to waste a roster spot (imo) on someone that should have been a career minor leaguer in Butera.
I get your point, but in all honesty, if the Twins are going to be playing Mauer 60+ games a year at 1B+DH, I can't see Gardy going down to only two catchers on the roster anytime in the next year or two.

It's frustrating as hell, but prob time we just accept this as inevitable.

boney
06-27-2012, 01:13 PM
Good point and kind of what I'm getting at also. The difference for me is that if they're going to get Mauer so many games away from catcher I'd like to see them get someone in that is capable of being an everyday catcher at this level. I don't dislike Doumit, I'd just rather have them concentrate on what (imo) is a bigger issue. If they can bring back Doumit in the backup to the backup catcher/dh/awful 1b-rf role for cheap I'm good with that.

Fire Dan Gladden
06-29-2012, 01:34 PM
Good point and kind of what I'm getting at also. The difference for me is that if they're going to get Mauer so many games away from catcher I'd like to see them get someone in that is capable of being an everyday catcher at this level. I don't dislike Doumit, I'd just rather have them concentrate on what (imo) is a bigger issue. If they can bring back Doumit in the backup to the backup catcher/dh/awful 1b-rf role for cheap I'm good with that.

I believe Terry Ryan is capable of negotiating with more than one player at a time. For the Twins, backup catcher seems to be a big issue. Bigger than starting pitching? No, but big all the same. Plus, you deal with what you can when you can. Doumit has expressed an interest in coming back, the Twins have expressed intrest in having him back, now is as good a time as any to talk extension. If only our starting pitching issues could be solved so easily...