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View Full Version : Article: Liriano Rediscovers the Slider



Parker Hageman
06-20-2012, 12:33 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?686-Liriano-Rediscovers-the-Slider

Paul
06-20-2012, 01:39 PM
Another nice job Parker. It's hard to weigh the worth to the team in keeping Frankie vs flipping him. I'm at about 51% on my mental scale that he should be kept.
For 2 reasons:

1. Pitchers, even stupid pitchers, get wiser about their job as they get older. And pitchers can stay in the game until their stuff erodes and no one wants to pay them anymore. Frankie's stuff is great.

2. There's SO much potential.

glunn
06-20-2012, 01:42 PM
I agree with Paul. The Twins desperately need good starters, and if Liriano can be good, then he is worth keeping.

Blackjack
06-20-2012, 02:46 PM
It would be nice to keep him, but at what price?? Blackburn money? Hes a border line head case but with his potential I think the Twins will get outbid for him.

twinzgrl
06-20-2012, 02:54 PM
Liriano has been better. Color me skeptical that he can keep it going. But, I think Terry Ryan will make a decision based on all the factors (as we all know there are many). We need competent starting pitching. Can he give it to us? At what price? It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

nicksaviking
06-20-2012, 02:55 PM
I would guess if Gardy and Anderson have a say (and at this point they actually may not) they would cut him loose. I've never heard either of them as exhasperated as when a reporter asks them about a Liriano performance. I'm for keeping him around at a reasonable price but the coaching staff tends to prefer stability even at the expense of a useful player.

Winston Smith
06-20-2012, 03:01 PM
Keeping him for what? August and Sept taking up a spot on a very bad pitching staff that could be taken by somebody that might help next year? Is there a 5% chance he resigns next year? I doubt it.
Why after all these years of hope and failure would they even consider giving him a new contract? With all the teams looking for pitching there will be a least a couple that will offer him a stupid amout when he hits the market. The choice isn't the Twins anyway he's a free agent after the season.
Get what you can for him, which likely won't be much, and move on.

Parker Hageman
06-20-2012, 03:49 PM
I do believe he's worn out his welcome in Minnesota but if he continues this trend, he'll definitely be a buy-low type of pitcher either at the trade deadline or in free agency at the end of the season.

YLT
06-20-2012, 05:18 PM
For as many question marks there are surrounding Liriano, there is no way the Twins give him the kind of money he'll demand as a free agent. I don't care how much potential he has. If he goes on to another team and finds a little of his old self again I'd be very happy and not incredibly surprised. It just doesn't seem like it's going to happen in MN. Ultimately though it comes down to the cost.

clutterheart
06-20-2012, 05:42 PM
Everything I read says Gardy and Anderson like him a lot and i think he has not worn out his welcome. He is rumored to be a stand up guy and very liked by the team. Its just he is not very good right now.
I fear he goes to a team like the white sox and gets put on track by some other team.

Parker Hageman
06-20-2012, 06:03 PM
Everything I read says Gardy and Anderson like him a lot and i think he has not worn out his welcome. He is rumored to be a stand up guy and very liked by the team.

It's not personality, it's performance related.

USAFChief
06-20-2012, 06:31 PM
I was hopeful the Twins would have reached a reasonable extension with Liriano over the past winter, and remain hopeful they'll find a way to keep him around in the future. There is little chance the Twins will find a pitcher with a better chance of being well above average next winter, at similar cost. I bet he'd take a 3 yr deal right now if offered. Maybe it backfires on the Twins, but who wants to go into next year with Blackburn or some other free agent off the scrap heap at the top of the rotation?

I know he started the year terribly, but the guy has more talent than any starter on the Twins, and more talent than anything they're likely to sign over the winter.

tcarlic
06-20-2012, 07:40 PM
And then he goes and throws like is tonight... through 5 he only threw 56 pitches or something like that. All the dude needs to do is throw the ball over the plate.

Brock Beauchamp
06-20-2012, 07:43 PM
And then he goes and throws like is tonight... through 5 he only threw 56 pitches or something like that. All the dude needs to do is throw the ball over the plate.

Facing the Pirates helps a bit. Still, he's throwing a gem through 5+ so far.

greengoblinrulz
06-20-2012, 08:18 PM
Liriano on the comeback....5 starts 1W 3L
30.1IP 16h 8er (2.37ERA) 35K 12bb
is still mentally soft
Someone please make us an offer before he regresses

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-20-2012, 09:00 PM
The Twins need to sign Liriano. Simply put, what we have for next year is no good and has no potential (Blackburn, Walters, Diamond, Hendriks,?). That group is not even watchable. In addition to being awful, there's not enough players under contract. Someone has to be that question mark. There is no way I'd give a contract to Greinke or Sanchez. Not Sanchez because he could be risky as a pitcher who has played in the NL his entire career and not Greinke because he is terrible at Target Field. We have a lot of money coming off the books and no free agents to sign. I don't see any harm in offering 6 million to Liriano through arbitration.

chopper0080
06-20-2012, 09:48 PM
Seriously? You guys are now advocating Liriano after a few good starts? This is who he is, a totally inconsistent pitcher with talent. Hoping he stays hot and trading him for a middle grade prospect is our best case scenario. Liriano is never going to be a pitcher a club can rely on and we will be lucky to get something for him.

Andrew Bryz-Gornia
06-20-2012, 09:51 PM
...not Greinke because he is terrible at Target Field.

A 5.63 ERA in only 5 starts at Target Field is a terrible reason to not sign him. No, the Twins won't sign him because he'll be too expensive.

Cody Christie
06-20-2012, 09:58 PM
Liriano's slider looked nasty against some hitters tonight. It gave me flashbacks to when he first came into the league. Even with a decent start, the 7th inning was frustrating. It is hard to imagine him ever being able to put it all back together for a full season. That's probably why he will be on a different team by the start of next year.

greengoblinrulz
06-20-2012, 11:01 PM
The Twins need to sign Liriano. Simply put, what we have for next year is no good and has no potential (Blackburn, Walters, Diamond, Hendriks,?). That group is not even watchable. In addition to being awful, there's not enough players under contract. Someone has to be that question mark. There is no way I'd give a contract to Greinke or Sanchez. Not Sanchez because he could be risky as a pitcher who has played in the NL his entire career and not Greinke because he is terrible at Target Field. We have a lot of money coming off the books and no free agents to sign. I don't see any harm in offering 6 million to Liriano through arbitration.
cannot offer $6m to him in arbitration......has to be $12m under new rules.
Does this change your attitude on this bum?

snepp
06-20-2012, 11:07 PM
More like $12.5 million.


Consider your nits picked.

USAFChief
06-20-2012, 11:08 PM
Seriously? You guys are now advocating Liriano after a few good starts? This is who he is, a totally inconsistent pitcher with talent. Hoping he stays hot and trading him for a middle grade prospect is our best case scenario. Liriano is never going to be a pitcher a club can rely on and we will be lucky to get something for him.

FWIW, I disagree with everything in this post. Strongly.

"Inconsistent...with talent" beats the crap out of consistent but with no talent. Isn't that exactly what everyone complains about, endlessly? The Twins have no talented starting pitchers?

Perhaps Liriano never does figure it out. But on a team desparate for above average starting pitching I'd take Liriano over any combination of Blackburn/Marquis/Pavano/Walters/whatever scrap heap reclamation project next season brings us, any day, and it wouldn't cost much more. In some cases, less.

IMO some team is going to get a gem in Liriano some day. I hope it's the Twins.

USAFChief
06-20-2012, 11:10 PM
More like $12.5 million.


Consider your nits picked.

I'd offer 3/$21 right now. I bet he'd take it. That's one more year and only $2.5M more than Pavano got to lead the league in hits allowed and implode in year two.

snepp
06-20-2012, 11:13 PM
I'd offer 3/$21 right now. I bet he'd take it. That's one more year and only $2.5M more than Pavano got to lead the league in hits allowed and implode in year two.

That would be a whole lot better risk than the guaranteed mediocrity they would likely sign otherwise.

CDog
06-20-2012, 11:41 PM
I don't see any harm in offering 6 million to Liriano through arbitration.

I have a question on the new rules and that reminded me. There's that ~$12M number that is out there...is that the amount they have to offer him IN ORDER TO GET a compensation pick? Or is that the minimum arbitration number, period? I guess I'm wondering if they could offer him arbitration for a more reasonable number.

Shane Wahl
06-21-2012, 12:20 AM
Parker, you do a great job trying to unravel this mystery.

Twins best friend
06-21-2012, 01:02 AM
Seriously? You guys are now advocating Liriano after a few good starts? This is who he is, a totally inconsistent pitcher with talent. Hoping he stays hot and trading him for a middle grade prospect is our best case scenario. Liriano is never going to be a pitcher a club can rely on and we will be lucky to get something for him.

I've gotta say that I agree to an extent. If the Twins can't get a good return on him though a trade then they may as well see how little they can pay for him. It's all but decided that the Twins are not going to compete next year and while Liriano can be awful, he can also be spectacular. If the previously mentioned scenario plays out then there's no reason they shouldn't take a chance on giving fans potential greatness when his inconsistency surely won't cost the team their season.

glunn
06-21-2012, 01:13 AM
i agree with those who prefer the hope for having an ace over the guaranteed mediocrity that will result from letting Liriano go. Maybe if they could get a prospect who has ace potential, this might make sense. Otherwise, if Liriano does well during the rest of this season, I would offer the minimum amount necessary to qualify for a compensation pick.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-21-2012, 01:40 AM
cannot offer $6m to him in arbitration......has to be $12m under new rules.
Does this change your attitude on this bum?


You're telling me the 80% rule was changed in the new CBA? What Cdog said makes a lot more sense.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-21-2012, 02:02 AM
I have a question on the new rules and that reminded me. There's that ~$12M number that is out there...is that the amount they have to offer him IN ORDER TO GET a compensation pick? Or is that the minimum arbitration number, period? I guess I'm wondering if they could offer him arbitration for a more reasonable number.

I believe you are correct. The 12.5 million number I assume is the average salary of the 125 highest paid players that posters keep bringing up. This only pertains to Draft Pick Compensation under the new CBA and the 80% rule still stands. Therefore, my stance in my previous post doesn't change and I would be shocked if Liriano didn't accept 6 million after pitching like crap.
Source: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/2011_CBA.pdf

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-21-2012, 02:04 AM
A 5.63 ERA in only 5 starts at Target Field is a terrible reason to not sign him. No, the Twins won't sign him because he'll be too expensive.

And giving a contract to someone with those numbers in your home park is irresponsible.

snepp
06-21-2012, 02:08 AM
And giving a contract to someone with those numbers in your home park is irresponsible.

No, drawing any conclusions whatsoever from a sample size that incredibly small and completely meaningless would be irresponsible.

glunn
06-21-2012, 02:18 AM
Other than Liriano, is there even a remote hope for an ace next year?

ltwedt
06-21-2012, 03:07 PM
Ship him - but get SOMETHING

ashburyjohn
06-21-2012, 03:41 PM
I'd offer 3/$21 right now. I bet he'd take it.

He quite possibly would, assuming he's not fed up with the organization and wants to start fresh somewhere.

This is why Terry Ryan sits in the big chair - a very difficult decision. Shades of signing Nick Blackburn - there's a very big risk that a year from now Liriano is back to scuffling and the contract makes him totally untradeable, instead of just not tradeable for as much as we'd want. A similar size contract to what was given to Willingham, but with much greater risk/reward either side.

The Greatest Poster Alive
06-21-2012, 07:41 PM
Other than Liriano, is there even a remote hope for an ace next year?

Not in the organization. Twins need to throw a pile of cash at Grienke's feet.

Brock Beauchamp
06-21-2012, 07:43 PM
Not in the organization. Twins need to throw a pile of cash at Grienke's feet.

If they sign Grienke, they need to keep Liriano. The idea of the maid knocking on their hotel room door a little too loudly and both of them wetting the bed is too great a situation to pass up.

The Greatest Poster Alive
06-21-2012, 08:36 PM
If they sign Grienke, they need to keep Liriano. The idea of the maid knocking on their hotel room door a little too loudly and both of them wetting the bed is too great a situation to pass up.

They need to bring back tweak to get the insane pitcher trifecta.

chopper0080
06-21-2012, 11:11 PM
At some point you have to stop chasing the pipe dream of Liriano and his "ace potential" and move on, hopefully while also adding some sort of prospect that could develop into a contributor. I would rather pay Anibal Sanchez 12.5 million than Liriano any day of the week. I get the "potential" and "upside" of Liriano, but not trading him when his contract is nearly up and letting him walk for nothing is stupid.

The Greatest Poster Alive
06-21-2012, 11:18 PM
At some point you have to stop chasing the pipe dream of Liriano and his "ace potential" and move on, hopefully while also adding some sort of prospect that could develop into a contributor. I would rather pay Anibal Sanchez 12.5 million than Liriano any day of the week. I get the "potential" and "upside" of Liriano, but not trading him when his contract is nearly up and letting him walk for nothing is stupid.

Thinking someone is going to trust Liriano in a stretch run is just as stupid.

You can trade him for a player on the level of Cole Devries... or HOld on to him and not further deplete your roster for the rest of the year...

If someone actually offers something worthwhile, then sure trade him... but for a throwaway prospect the trade is not worth adding to the already huge depth problem in the rotation.

etspaceman
06-22-2012, 07:24 AM
Honestly, I wouldn't care if Liriano doesn't net much in a trade; at this point, it's probably best to give young, developing players the innings rather than starting a guy who hasn't "figured it out" in 5 years after his Tommy John. What are we hoping for anymore?

This reminds me of the Boof Bonser situation, quite frankly.

Brock Beauchamp
06-22-2012, 07:28 AM
Honestly, I wouldn't care if Liriano doesn't net much in a trade; at this point, it's probably best to give young, developing players the innings rather than starting a guy who hasn't "figured it out" in 5 years after his Tommy John. What are we hoping for anymore?

I think it has more to do with the rest of system having zero options than it does Liriano's ability to pitch. If you can sign Liriano for similar money to a Marquis-type junk pitcher, it might not be a bad idea (though I think someone out there will give Liriano more than that, especially if he keeps throwing well this season).

old nurse
06-22-2012, 11:44 AM
This reminds me of the Boof Bonser situation, quite frankly.[/QUOTE]
Bonser was more of a head case due to weight. Being heavy killed his endurance. He was ok as a rookie. After losing weight he lost something. Liriano pitched well when the games didn't count this year. The Twins being so far out the games don't count for much, Liriano is pitching better.

USAFChief
06-22-2012, 12:29 PM
There are two options, really. Sign him now to an extension, or deal him before the deadline. I would choose the first option. If you don't sign him there really is no benefit to keeping him through the end of the season.

etspaceman
06-22-2012, 06:19 PM
This reminds me of the Boof Bonser situation, quite frankly.
Bonser was more of a head case due to weight. Being heavy killed his endurance. He was ok as a rookie. After losing weight he lost something. Liriano pitched well when the games didn't count this year. The Twins being so far out the games don't count for much, Liriano is pitching better.

Bonser was a head-case because he couldn't control his fastball, much like Liriano.

And excuses like what you've just stated for Liriano were exactly what was being said about Bonser. He has an ERA over 5 and it seems like he hits a batter in every outing. He's been pretty solid lately in terms of runs, but his control still isn't there and I wouldn't be surprised to see him slip in his next few outings. It's been five years after his Tommy John; it's time to start realizing that his current state is what he is - an inconsistent, hard-throwing pitcher.

I do tend to agree that retaining him for a price of a Marquis or something is fine.

peterb18
06-23-2012, 09:33 PM
I would keep Liriano on the basis of what he is doing now, or potential. However, somebody mentioned that he might not want to come back--that could be accurate. So he might need a change of scenery. But, if the Twins are looking for starting pitchers with good stuff, by keeping Liriano, and Gibson and Baker(Baker has a nice live arm) come back strong then we have three pitchers with solid ability. By adding Grienke we would have four quality arms. All big if's!