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John Bonnes
06-18-2012, 07:49 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?678-Twins-Must-Decide-When-Not-If-Glen-Perkins-Jared-Burton-Are-Available

Bark's Lounge
06-18-2012, 08:07 PM
I'll give my two cents on the Perkins side of this equation. If you can get good+ value for him - why not? I have to admit that I am impressed with how he dug himself out of the Twins Doghouse and as a reliever he has pretty much proven he is strikeout/power pitcher. If you can get a good+ return for him go for it... anything less than that would be foolish. He is the only pitcher we have except for Liriano who can strike out hitters at a good clip.

Jim H
06-18-2012, 08:26 PM
Sometimes I wonder about the point of some your posts. This is one of them. Of course Perkins and or Burton are available, if someone blows you away. But, your post asumes that the Twins can't be competitive next year, or if they can be, there are replacements readily available for either or both. Neither, of these undiscussed but pertinent issues are addressed.

So what if Perkins and Burton are tradeable, the question is whether trading either or both is a good idea, and you really don't address this. Clearly, in your mind, it is a good idea, but you don't explain why it is.

Personally, I don't think quality late inning relievers are that readily available. Oh, there are a lot of guys who throw hard, and some have impressive strikeout numbers but there are too many 37 year olds plus with declining stuff, finding work in late innings, for me to believe that you just trade cheap quality guys, UNLESS, you've got someone to replace them.

jlovren
06-18-2012, 08:29 PM
I'll give my two cents on the Perkins side of this equation. If you can get good+ value for him - why not? I have to admit that I am impressed with how he dug himself out of the Twins Doghouse and as a reliever he has pretty much proven he is strikeout/power pitcher. If you can get a good+ return for him go for it... anything less than that would be foolish. He is the only pitcher we have except for Liriano who can strike out hitters at a good clip.

Unless we can get some seriously good value for either than we do not let our relievers go. With as bad as a pitching staff as we have we cannot afford to let our only strikeout pitcher go. They are at very friendly salary levels which will also help us out for the future as well.

Highabove
06-18-2012, 08:31 PM
Why would we trade Perkins? He has a very Team friendly contract and is locked up for the next four years. Are we going to get front line pitching prospects for him, probably not. You cannot turn around an Organization with B and C prospects. Why do so many people want the Twins to become the Kansas City Royals?

JB_Iowa
06-18-2012, 09:04 PM
I'm all in favor of trading anybody who can bring back good starting pitching prospects (or better yet, a proven starting pitcher).

Except for last year's disastrous bullpen, the Twins have pretty consistently shown that they are able to put together a decent BP from minor leaguers, free agent pickups and the scrapheap (and do it at a reasonable price). I don't have any reason to doubt that the "Ryan/Gardenhire/Anderson/minor league pitching coaches group" will be able to maintain that tradition.

Their success with the bullpen directly contrasts with a dearth of successful starting pitching. Something HAS to give. It's unrealistic to think that they are going to be able to put together a decent starting staff solely from FA pickups. If Perkins or Burton or Capps (or anyone else) has to be a part of a deal to get some "better than mediocre" starting pitching to Minnesota, then so be it.

John Bonnes
06-18-2012, 09:14 PM
Sometimes I wonder about the point of some your posts. This is one of them. Of course Perkins and or Burton are available, if someone blows you away. But, your post asumes that the Twins can't be competitive next year, or if they can be, there are replacements readily available for either or both. Neither, of these undiscussed but pertinent issues are addressed.


No, I don't think the Twins can be competitive, even in the AL Central, in 2013 because of their starting pitching. I see zero chance of them going and committing the dollars and years to a high impact starting pitcher that would be required. (And I wouldn't disagree with that philosophy.) The entire rotation - spots one through five - are question marks right now. I stop short of advocating completely blowing up the team, but I'm not necessarily opposed to that. But I believe there is no reason to hold onto relievers, even closers, because they might be valuable in 2014 or 2015. A team that can afford to invest innings in waiver pickups/farmhands/etc can find some effective relievers. It will cost them wins, but that's something they can afford to pay.

Brandon
06-18-2012, 09:17 PM
If you sign Burton to a team friendly contract. Why would you trade him? I'm in the minority of opinion that our current core of players is almost good enough. We need 1 to 2 starting pitchers and maybe someone better than the .720 OPS we are getting from Doumit who is solid but not spectacular.

Bullpen is good, defense overall is solid and offense has picked it up just holes in the rotation with everyone returning next year minus the pitching. The better question is how do we develop a solid rotation for cheep on the fly with trades, minor league signings, free agents. We could contend this year with another starter or 2 and probably next too.

Highabove
06-18-2012, 09:29 PM
Is it a given, that a large portion of the 25-30 million coming off the books next year, will be going into the Pohlad's pocket?

twinswon1991
06-18-2012, 09:50 PM
Everyone on the team should be for sale. By the time this team is competitive again, 2014-2015, only Mauer is a given to still be around. Relievers are the easiest guys to replace in baseball and are the last thing you need if you are rebuilding.

The problem is that Terry Ryan is so stupid he will probably try to trade FOR relievers to build the bullpen and will continue to believe this team can compete with its starting 5 who are similar to many AAA staffs.

If you can get an A ball lottery ticket starting pitcher prospect for either you MUST pull the trigger. Any of the numerous failed SP's in the minors could addition for the vacant RP jobs and will likely do a decent job. Heck, Slama or Guerra may be better than either of these guys next year as relievers seem to go from all-star to independant leagues in 2 years.

Winston Smith
06-18-2012, 10:26 PM
Thank you John. Everyone should be on the table, this team needs lots of everything. Next years rotation right now would be Diamond, Blackburn and what?

twinslover
06-18-2012, 10:46 PM
I don't care who they trade as long as the return is young starting pitching. Where is the Brad Radke of this decade? Personally I would like the Twins to keep Perkins and Burton. I don't particularly care for NoNeck, so like Bonnes said, if they can get something for him, do it and do it now.

Jeremy Nygaard
06-18-2012, 10:55 PM
Next years rotation right now would be Diamond, Blackburn and what?

Ugh... Blackburn would probably be the opening day starter. Follow him with Diamond, Hendriks and Walters. Best guess for the 5th starter - based on what's already in the organization - would be some combination of Swarzak, Duensing, Manship and/or De Vries, until Gibson is ready.

And the next best prospect on the horizon is B.J. Hermsen, who doesn't strike out enough guys to rate as anything higher than a durable #4. (He's also only pitched a little over 60 innings at AA... so he's not exactly banging down the door.)

Jim H
06-18-2012, 10:58 PM
OK John, your post now makes more sense, not that I necessarily agree with your reasoning. The thing is Burton and/or Perkins could indeed potentially yield someone eventually useful. But, whoever the return is, he won't likely contribute anything for the next 3 years and maybe longer. Ryan has always been able to identify potentially useful players in trades, but the more useful a player potentially is, the farther away from the big leagues he is going to be. Neither Burton or Perkins is going to get you an immediate impact guy. In fact if you want a guy who might help you soon, he won't be much more valuable than Burton or Perkins.

I think you probably hang on to both Perkins and Burton if you believe that adding 1 or 2 FA starters could make you a contender next year, and you are willing to pony up for some quality starters. I don't think the Twins are aiming 4-5 years down the road. They want to be competitive next year and probably strongly competitive the year after(2014).

Trading useful parts for guys who won't/can't help till 2016 doesn't seem like the right plan to me.

clutterheart
06-18-2012, 11:10 PM
I hope like hell the team has a plan for 2013 to get a top line starting pitcher that doesn't involve trading their "core"guys. If they had a competent rotation Twins would be in the hunt for a play-off spot.
The Offense is good
The Bullpen is above replacement level
The defense is not bad
The Starting pitching has been horrible.
Add 1 or 2 decent Starters and this team is .500 and just 4-5 games out from first.

I would be disappointed if they blew it all up for some prospects unless they could get guys who could be Top-Line pitchers or All stars. And nobody on the MLB Team is going to give them that kind of return. So I would be against these moves because the type of return probably won't be there.

If there is one thing I hope they learned from the Bill Smith Era is the only way to get better is to Fleece the other team (See Baltimore and Tampa Bay) and they don't have the assets to be the Fleecer.

glunn
06-18-2012, 11:28 PM
I am still regretting letting Crane go to the White Sox.

Perkins and Burton are both high quality late inning relievers -- not that easily replaced. And both of them could be valuable in 2013 and 2014.

Let Capps go for a decent pitching prospect. Capps seems unlikely to still be valuable by the time that the Twins are ready to contend. Maybe he could be packaged to get a high potential pitching prospect.

Rosterman
06-18-2012, 11:50 PM
People forget that Capps is still young. He is a proven closer and has a very affordable extension. So he is great trade bait. Burton and Perkins are still JUST relief pitchers. No one would be trading them to be an immediate closer. Even come next season, most teams have their own idea of a closer-in-training, why would they overpay for someone from the Twins. Both Perkins and Burton are undervalued important pieces of near future bullpens. Until they reach closer status, they will just be bullpen guys in par with Crain and Guerrier, both potential closer material but still in the bullpen two years into their higher-priced contracts. When you trade a solid relief pitcher, you can expect a salary savings and a comparable young prospect who may or may not pan out (remember Twins trading Mulvey for Rauch, for example). Again, Perkins gets worth IF he is named and performs as a closer. Same with Burton. At this point, if Burton shows stuff, make him closer until he itches out of it. Or he may become a gem.

LaBombo
06-19-2012, 12:29 AM
OK John, your post now makes more sense, not that I necessarily agree with your reasoning. The thing is Burton and/or Perkins could indeed potentially yield someone eventually useful. But, whoever the return is, he won't likely contribute anything for the next 3 years and maybe longer. Ryan has always been able to identify potentially useful players in trades, but the more useful a player potentially is, the farther away from the big leagues he is going to be. Neither Burton or Perkins is going to get you an immediate impact guy. In fact if you want a guy who might help you soon, he won't be much more valuable than Burton or Perkins.

I think you probably hang on to both Perkins and Burton if you believe that adding 1 or 2 FA starters could make you a contender next year, and you are willing to pony up for some quality starters. I don't think the Twins are aiming 4-5 years down the road. They want to be competitive next year and probably strongly competitive the year after(2014).

Trading useful parts for guys who won't/can't help till 2016 doesn't seem like the right plan to me.

Hey, Jim. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

The Twins will not write giant checks for "FA starters" next year and suddenly transform from crap into contenders. Frugality aside, their rotation currently boasts exactly zero reliable starters who can be counted on in 2013. Zero. Jim, this is still for you. Are you with me? Zero.

That leaves the lineup and bullpen. Which of those two (both?) were you going to hang your hat on in 2013 to make up for an absolute vacuum of starting pitching? An offense that's been dreadful despite healthy, productive seasons from M/M/S and a nice shot in the arm from Willingham? Or a bullpen that, despite you bizarre assertions to the contrary, possesses nearly all the smart, quick turn-around tradable assets in the entire organization?

Once again, Jim, pretty much everything you said was wrong. Other than that, it was an enjoyable read.

Nick Nelson
06-19-2012, 12:51 AM
Glen Perkins hasn't been especially effective this year
You keep saying this, John. I'd love hear some explanation for it. Perkins is blowing people away.

USAFChief
06-19-2012, 12:52 AM
Nobody will shed a tear if Ryan is able to trade Capps for something useful.

I can listen to the idea of flipping Burton for a good return.

But trading Perkins is shortsighted. Despite popular myth building a pen isn't easy.

You rebuild by flipping overperformers and/or players who won't be around long. Perkins is neither of those. Trading away all your good players is what KC tried for two decades.

Find starting pitching for sure but not at the expense of your good cheap assets.

Highabove
06-19-2012, 01:43 AM
Unless your trading with Bill Smith, Bullpen Arms do not bring much in trade.

What did the Twins give up for the 2009 leader in saves, Brian Fuentes? A player to be named later Loek VanMil

What did the Mets receve from the Brewers for Premiere Closer Francisco Rodriguez??
Two players to be named latter LHP Danny Ray Herrera and RHP Adrian Rosario.
What a haul that was!!
I Agree with USAF, why trade your good cheap assets for anything short of starting pitching.

Lets not get Trade happy

Boom Boom
06-19-2012, 08:35 AM
I am not on board with trading Perkins. I believe he'll be a part of the next contending Twins team, and the Twins aren't going to get enough return in a trade for him that it would be worth it.

Burton... I think he's done it with a bit of smoke and mirrors. I could listen on trade offers for him, but I don't believe the Twins would get much at all for Burton.

Loosey
06-19-2012, 08:35 AM
I disagree with trading either of these guys. First of all they have team friendly contracts at this point. Secondly, they are relief pitchers. Teams rarely give up high-end prospects for a releif pitcher due to the notion that they can find good arms somewhere without giving up much if anything. The only team that I can recall giving up a good prospect for a reliever is the Twins trading Ramos for Capps. I have mentioned this before, do not trade away your best assets for wild card B-level prospects. When you have a proven commodity in Perkins and Burton who are relatively young and assumingly have quite few years of success ahead of them why trade them for unknowns. The team will be better in the long term with these two guys than without them.

mike wants wins
06-19-2012, 09:29 AM
I agree with John, I see almost no chance they sign 1or2or 3starting pitchers in the offseason. I also do not think they can hold onto of their good assets and not make trades. The minora are barren of impact or even average MLB players at the highest levels. If you won't trade your valuable assets, you ate going to be hard pressed to get better.

jeffk
06-19-2012, 09:55 AM
Burton and Perkins' value are artificially low because they're not "closers", even if they have the good stuff.. Move Capps if anyone.

Winston Smith
06-19-2012, 11:06 AM
You don't trade a player just to trade them unless it's a salary dump and the Twins aren't going broke at this point. If any player on the team can bring back talent that will make them better you do it. If Perkins or Burton can bring back talent to make you better do it. If Morneau, Willingham or Span can bring back talent to make you better do it. If you trade them to save a few bucks to put in the Pohlads pocket then you piss me off. We need more talent!

Steve Lein
06-19-2012, 11:42 AM
Anybody who thinks the Twins can get a "decent starting pitching" prospect for any of their current reliever crop is living in a world of sunshine, flowers, and pots of gold at the end of rainbows. If you want a high-end starter prospect in a return, the guys you have to dangle are named Span, Morneau, and Willingham. Span is one of my favorite Twins, but he almost has to be the centerpiece in a deal for a SP if the Twins feel like contending next year.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
06-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Unless your trading with Bill Smith, Bullpen Arms do not bring much in trade.

What did the Twins give up for the 2009 leader in saves, Brian Fuentes? A player to be named later Loek VanMil

What did the Mets receve from the Brewers for Premiere Closer Francisco Rodriguez??
Two players to be named latter LHP Danny Ray Herrera and RHP Adrian Rosario.
What a haul that was!!
I Agree with USAF, why trade your good cheap assets for anything short of starting pitching.

Lets not get Trade happy




The Orioles got Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter for Koji Uehara. That looks likes like a pretty good return for a bullpen arm.

John Bonnes
06-19-2012, 12:00 PM
You keep saying this, John. I'd love hear some explanation for it. Perkins is blowing people away.

Nick, his overall stats have been fine, but he's had a few hiccups that have, through last week at least, left him with a neutral (maybe even negative) WPA. I think he would probably agree.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?playerid=8041&position=P&type=5&gds=&gde=

Nick Nelson
06-19-2012, 12:11 PM
Nick, his overall stats have been fine, but he's had a few hiccups that have, through last week at least, left him with a neutral (maybe even negative) WPA. I think he would probably agree.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?playerid=8041&position=P&type=5&gds=&gde=
His WPA isn't negative or neutral, it's positive. And two of the guys ahead of him in that category are Alex Burnett and Jeff Gray, which has to make you question using that metric as the sole determinant of a player's effectiveness.

How many games has Perkins cost the Twins this year? One? And that was back in early April.

JB_Iowa
06-19-2012, 12:29 PM
Anybody who thinks the Twins can get a "decent starting pitching" prospect for any of their current reliever crop is living in a world of sunshine, flowers, and pots of gold at the end of rainbows. If you want a high-end starter prospect in a return, the guys you have to dangle are named Span, Morneau, and Willingham. Span is one of my favorite Twins, but he almost has to be the centerpiece in a deal for a SP if the Twins feel like contending next year.

I don't think that any of the relievers alone will bring back a "decent starting pitching" prospect but I also hope that the front office is smart enough to be thinking about packages rather than one-for-one. They have a lot of hard work to do and if one of Perkins or Burton has to be part of the puzzle, I have no problem with it. (As far as I'm concerned there isn't a single player on this team who should be "safe" from a trade although I recognize that no trade clauses come into play. That doesn't mean that they should do something stupid or hold a fire sale but it does mean that they should be thinking creatively.)

Cris E
06-19-2012, 01:13 PM
Perkins has been solid and pretty healthy since he gave up on starting and embraced the pen. Burton is some guy having a very good year. Cash in the latter and hang on to the former.

But here's the deal with deals: I think Terry Ryan is going to leave the team intact for the most part.

He sees a scenario where he just needs to sort out the rotation and they’ll be back in the mediocre AL Central mix. Just dump the one year contracts in July and focus on the rotation. He can restructure Baker’s deal, finally give up on Liriano, and they’ll have Gibson to look at, plus there’s the pile of Blackburn, Diamond and Walters to sift through. Assuming Baker is bad next year, Gibson gets a jump on his return in August 2012 and Liriano is traded that means there are enough arms to fill 3 spots at the back, so they only need two better than average starters. (As a secondary concern, maybe a 3b, a RF and possibly a C of the future.) The pitching alone is a lot to find in one offseason.

But he’s got some chips to deal: everyone in their last year like Capps, Liriano, Doumit, as well as filler like Casilla and Valencia plus positions of depth like CF (Span or Benson or Revere or Aaron Hicks). Burton is a 2012 alien abduction season that should be cashed in immediately. There’s a lot of money coming of the books so they can afford to take on a real deal or even *gasp* sign a free agent. But he’s got Mauer and Morneau and Willingham and Span and a fair supporting cast of Dozier, Carroll, plus the wildly unlikely Plouffe.


It could happen, and far faster and easier than a full tear down. Dumping the part of the team that's performing just to gather more cheap lottery tickets doesn't make a lot of sense when a lot of things are in pretty good shape.

Twinsoholic
06-19-2012, 01:32 PM
I agree with Cris E that Ryan is likely to "leave teh team intact for the most part." I doubt that Ryan will trade either Perkins or Burton, and why should he? Burton is relatively inexpensive, and Perkins just signed a deal that will keep him here--likely as next season's closer. I also agree with Cris that Baker might be offered a restructured deal: something like $5 million for next year (he's coming off major surgery) + a team and player option for the following year at $8 or $9 million. So, a 2013 rotation could have Diamond, Baker, + a free agent + any of the following: Gibson, Wimmers, Hendricks, Walters, Hermson, and players like Walters (plus there is always the Rule 5 draft).

The offense is very good (usually), and then after 2013 Morneau comes off the books (is that true for Blackburn as well?). Off the books after (or during) this season: Capps (likely to be traded), Pavano, and Liriano (likely).


As far as trades go, it is possible that Span and Capps and Doumit get traded, and I guess it is possible that Liriano gets traded. I doubt all four get traded, and I doubt any bigger names on the team (i.e., Morneau and Willingham) get traded.

A winning 2013 team is possible. The Twins got the offense going and the bull pen going, so far, this season, and you would expect them to be strong in these area next year. It is certainly conceivable that the Twins can have a stronger rotation next season. I don't think that they will start out 5 and 15 like this season.

DAM DC Twins Fans
06-19-2012, 01:55 PM
The Twins have one solid starter for 2014--Diamond. They have some potential starters--Gibson, Hendricks, Walters maybe Liriano if they take a chance--which I would not do. They need another starter. Tradeable assets Span (or Revere), Willingham (in spite of no D), Perkins...maybe Dozier or Doumit. Thats it. Morneau wont bring value cause of concussons. Burton will be viewed as playing now better than his record and will regress (also true of Plouffe). If we are going to get a good number one or two starter like Gio Gonzales of the Nats, we are going to have to package Span (or Revere or Willingham) with a bullpen guy. MLB GMs are smarter than Bill Smith--they wont give us a starter for spare parts like Morneau, Carroll, Burton--even if we put 4 of them in a trade.

old nurse
06-19-2012, 01:56 PM
Puckett's pond had a series of articles on the trades made by Ryan. There was a lot of swapping of minor league players for something that might work out. A player like Doumit he could get a decent return on (Joe Mays for Roberto Kelly). When he traded an established player, he appeared to get good results. Lohse being the exception. Average relievers and mediocre starters not so well. Given that record, I would not have him trade either Burton or Perkins.

SwainZag
06-19-2012, 02:04 PM
Sometimes I wonder about the point of some your posts. This is one of them. Of course Perkins and or Burton are available, if someone blows you away. But, your post asumes that the Twins can't be competitive next year, or if they can be, there are replacements readily available for either or both. Neither, of these undiscussed but pertinent issues are addressed.

So what if Perkins and Burton are tradeable, the question is whether trading either or both is a good idea, and you really don't address this. Clearly, in your mind, it is a good idea, but you don't explain why it is.

Personally, I don't think quality late inning relievers are that readily available. Oh, there are a lot of guys who throw hard, and some have impressive strikeout numbers but there are too many 37 year olds plus with declining stuff, finding work in late innings, for me to believe that you just trade cheap quality guys, UNLESS, you've got someone to replace them.


I agree with this. Especially when it comes to Perkins. He is 29, though under-performing compared to last year, still having a above-par year, has closer type stuff and signed to a very team favorable contract for the next 4 seasons, what's the upside to trading him? Unless someone blows you away with an offer, his age/value/contract and upside are something that if I'm the Twins want around.

SwainZag
06-19-2012, 02:19 PM
Hey, Jim. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

The Twins will not write giant checks for "FA starters" next year and suddenly transform from crap into contenders. Frugality aside, their rotation currently boasts exactly zero reliable starters who can be counted on in 2013. Zero. Jim, this is still for you. Are you with me? Zero.

That leaves the lineup and bullpen. Which of those two (both?) were you going to hang your hat on in 2013 to make up for an absolute vacuum of starting pitching? An offense that's been dreadful despite healthy, productive seasons from M/M/S and a nice shot in the arm from Willingham? Or a bullpen that, despite you bizarre assertions to the contrary, possesses nearly all the smart, quick turn-around tradable assets in the entire organization?

Once again, Jim, pretty much everything you said was wrong. Other than that, it was an enjoyable read.

With all the money coming off the books I would say it is very reasonable the Twins would go after 1 or 2 of the bigger name starters who will hit FA this offseason.

What Twins are you watching? Their pen is right in the middle of stats in MLB and the bats while 10th of 15 in the AL in runs have been much better as of late, 2nd in the AL in runs in June.

I really think a lot of people do not know much about the team outside being last in the AL Central. Record by month:

April 6th-May 9th - 8-22
May 10th - June 18th 18-17

Outside of their atrocious start they have been a .500 team. The bats have been much better, the pen has been overly solid, even the starting pitching has turned around somewhat. This team isn't as bad as so many people wanna make them out to be.

jmlease1
06-19-2012, 02:26 PM
Here's my biggest issue with the "trade all the assets" movement for the Twins: this isn't basketball, where you're better off blowing things up and starting from scratch than being a mediocre team for several years. Anything can happen in a baseball playoff, so getting into the playoffs should be the goal, rather than trying to tear everything down with the hope of building a dynasty in the future.

How much real value to Perkins & Burton have in trade? Smart GMs know that you can build a good bullpen on the cheap and that spending big money for a closer is probably wasting money. So we're really looking at getting back C-level prospects at best, in exchange for MLB pitchers that are filling a valuable role. Considering who much of a crap-shoot the MLB draft is, bottoming out the team seems to have marginal benefit.

I agree with the idea that the twins have a serious problem with their rotation, but that doesn't mean it can't be turned around relatively quickly. But we won't really know until the off-season at least. Scott Diamond could be a solid starter. Gibson may be ready by next season, depending on how he responds this year. Liam Hendriks might be ready to be in the back end. Blackburn should be able to fit in the back of the rotation. The Twins are short at the top of the rotation, but there should be some options on the free agent market, and the Twins will have the money to spend on one if they so choose. And choose they should: with Pavano, Baker, Liriano, and Capps' contracts off the books, that gives the Twins $26M to spend without raising payroll. (Use the Marquis contract to cover some of the inevitable payroll increases?) Zack Greinke sounds pretty good and the Twins should be a viable suitor. But not if we decimate the roster.

The offense sure looks solid enough. The defense has improved. The bullpen is solid. The ballpark is awesome. If ownership is willing to spend...why not, if the young players can go? But tear it all down and we guarantee 3 years or more of crap.

cr9617
06-19-2012, 02:35 PM
The Twins are in last place in the worst division in baseball, and have the worst record in the AL. More than that, they have no starting pitching to speak of going forward.

This team is so far from contending....

CK
06-19-2012, 03:03 PM
The Twins are in last place in the worst division in baseball, and have the worst record in the AL. More than that, they have no starting pitching to speak of going forward.

This team is so far from contending....

So you're saying there's a chance?!

LaBombo
06-19-2012, 03:06 PM
With all the money coming off the books I would say it is very reasonable the Twins would go after 1 or 2 of the bigger name starters who will hit FA this offseason.

What Twins are you watching? Their pen is right in the middle of stats in MLB and the bats while 10th of 15 in the AL in runs have been much better as of late, 2nd in the AL in runs in June.

I really think a lot of people do not know much about the team outside being last in the AL Central. Record by month:

April 6th-May 9th - 8-22
May 10th - June 18th 18-17

Outside of their atrocious start they have been a .500 team. The bats have been much better, the pen has been overly solid, even the starting pitching has turned around somewhat. This team isn't as bad as so many people wanna make them out to be.


What Twins am I watching? I'm watching the ones that are still tied for dead last in MLB in run differential. I'm watching the ones whose above-average June offense has been predicated almost entirely on getting nearly a bomb per game from Trevor freakin' Plouffe (1 HR/6 AB in June). I'm watching the ones who rank dead last in MLB in bullpen K's per 9 (sustainable success, anyone?).

And since you asked, starting May 10th I began watching a Twins team that's played .500 ball against a group of opponents who are a collective 40 games under .500.

Look, they're obviously not the historically awful goon squad we saw in April, and they clearly will have money coming off the books as you pointed out. But the idea that the Pohlads will start, rather than finish, building a contender with high-priced FA starters seems terribly optimistic. There's the modest spending history of the Twins in free agency, and then there's the high probability that the recent surge to respectability has a pretty substantial mirage content to it.

Or maybe we're thinking more alike than we know, and it's just that you're much more excited than I am about what the Twins can do next year with a rotation headlined by a show-stopper like Joe Blanton, Jeremy Guthrie, or Derek Lowe.

LaBombo
06-19-2012, 03:25 PM
So you're saying there's a chance?!

That's the spirit, Lloyd!

nokomismod
06-19-2012, 04:33 PM
I hope like hell the team has a plan for 2013 to get a top line starting pitcher that doesn't involve trading their "core"guys. If they had a competent rotation Twins would be in the hunt for a play-off spot.
The Offense is good
The Bullpen is above replacement level
The defense is not bad
The Starting pitching has been horrible.
Add 1 or 2 decent Starters and this team is .500 and just 4-5 games out from first.

I would be disappointed if they blew it all up for some prospects unless they could get guys who could be Top-Line pitchers or All stars. And nobody on the MLB Team is going to give them that kind of return. So I would be against these moves because the type of return probably won't be there.

If there is one thing I hope they learned from the Bill Smith Era is the only way to get better is to Fleece the other team (See Baltimore and Tampa Bay) and they don't have the assets to be the Fleecer.
I couldn't agree with you more Clutterheart. I would trade Capps, Liriano, or Mornea partly to dump salary and possibly get a return. keep the younger guys here.

USAFChief
06-19-2012, 09:02 PM
Nick, his overall stats have been fine, but he's had a few hiccups that have, through last week at least, left him with a neutral (maybe even negative) WPA. I think he would probably agree.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?playerid=8041&position=P&type=5&gds=&gde=

WPA? Seriously??

glunn
06-19-2012, 10:41 PM
Trading away all your good players is what KC tried for two decades.


That seems like a very valuable observation here. People are frustrated for good reason, but the Twins need to be building/preserving a core of good players.

DAM DC Twins Fans
06-20-2012, 10:20 AM
The Twins are in last place in the American League and on track for a 100 loss season. The bullpen has been good. The lineup has been better than expected but there are a ton of holes. Biggest one is pitching--are the Pohldads going to shell out the bucks to get somebody who is a number 1 (CC, Verlander, etc.) NO. Therefore, Ryan has to trade to get a starter to build around--that means getting rid of assets where you have a replacement (Span, Willingham--where you have Benson and Revere to play) or those who may be at their peak right now (Plouffe). If we trade people who are basically spare parts (Doumit, Carroll, etc.) or who have health history (Morneau) we will get more pitchers in the tradition of Sir Sidney, Marquis, R. Ortiz...