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View Full Version : The Twins and Their Supposed "Outfield Depth"



Alex
06-08-2012, 10:07 AM
I just read Souhan's recent article, in which he suggests trading Span due to outfield depth. I thought about the fact that it is pretty widely accepted in a lot of places that the Twins have outfield depth, but do they really?

I'm not sure what this means exactly in terms of how far beyond 2012 we're looking, but I guess the conclusion I came to is that we have a lot of young outfielders, but true outfield depth, imo, would be a situation where we have multiple outfielders that are fighting for playing time because they are high quality players. They certainly don't have that now, and I also don't see it in the next couple of years.

Left field is the only solid spot for the next couple of years, with Willingham there and then Span in center (assuming he's not traded). After that, this team really doesn't currently have a legitimate RF and has a couple of #4 outfielders on the bench. I think that Revere could be starting for this team, but I'm not convinced he's a starting caliber outfielder yet. In the minors, people like to talk about Benson and Hicks as the promising future out there, but they are both currently at AA and they're looking anything but promising right now. Maybe Parmelee has had some promising stretches, but nothing convincing yet that he's an everyday player (it was nice to see him play well in AAA again and will be interesting to see what he does as he arrives back here).

For comparison, take a look at Michael Cuddyer's minor league numbers and compare them to any of our current prospects. Cuddyer is a solid, maybe slightly above average, starter in the majors. Only one season in the minors did he post an OPS below .800, his first season in AA as a 20 year-old. For his remaining 3 years in the minors he proceeded to crush minor league pitching at the AA and AAA level.

Setting aside whether we should trade Span (I think that's a different, though related debate), I know we like to look to the future thinking we have OF depth and then slot guys like Revere, Benson, and Hicks into the big league lineups a couple years down the road. However, I really think that we're overrating how much depth we have in the minors in the outfield, at least right now and for the immediate future.

spideyo
06-08-2012, 10:21 AM
Cuddyer wasn't an OF in the minors, he didn't become a regular OF until I think his 2nd or third year at the bigs.

Also, we may not have star caliber players, but we do have a lot of OF'ers who could fill in and/or platoon. Tosoni, Mastroianni, Thomas, Dinkleman, Plouffe, Parmelee, Carson, and Benson are all capable of playing at least a few games in OF at the bigs. They may not be superstars, but they could keep the spot warm this year, and this offseason there are quite a few potential OF free agents.

Seth Stohs
06-08-2012, 10:27 AM
I wrote about that earlier this week, saying that it was a myth that the Twins had a lot of OF depth.

cr9617
06-08-2012, 10:33 AM
Cuddyer wasn't an OF in the minors, he didn't become a regular OF until I think his 2nd or third year at the bigs.

Also, we may not have star caliber players, but we do have a lot of OF'ers who could fill in and/or platoon. Tosoni, Mastroianni, Thomas, Dinkleman, Plouffe, Parmelee, Carson, and Benson are all capable of playing at least a few games in OF at the bigs. They may not be superstars, but they could keep the spot warm this year, and this offseason there are quite a few potential OF free agents.

The list of players you mention just proved Alex's point. Half of the guys on that list are on their way out of baseball, or should be soon.
Each one of those guys, except Benson(hopefully), is a dime a dozen with practically no upside.

Shane Wahl
06-08-2012, 10:35 AM
Depth they have, more prospects who are ready for the majors they do not have at the moment. "Trading Span because of OF depth" is a dumb, stupid, idiotic idea (but what do you expect from Souhan?). Trading Span because starting pitching is needed is another idea not dumb (though I disagree with it).

Alex
06-08-2012, 10:39 AM
Depth they have, more prospects who are ready for the majors they do not have at the moment. "Trading Span because of OF depth" is a dumb, stupid, idiotic idea (but what do you expect from Souhan?). Trading Span because starting pitching is needed is another idea not dumb (though I disagree with it).

Well, I wasn't trying to be critical of Souhan in particular because I think it's a relatively accepted idea in the mainstream.

Alex
06-08-2012, 10:40 AM
I wrote about that earlier this week, saying that it was a myth that the Twins had a lot of OF depth.

Doh! Sorry I missed this one Seth. Normally I try to keep track and even did a little search of the forums for a similar topic as I hadn't been around much this week.

Shane Wahl
06-08-2012, 10:45 AM
Doh! Sorry I missed this one Seth. Normally I try to keep track and even did a little search of the forums for a similar topic as I hadn't been around much this week.

Your take was still a little different than Seth's so it is perfectly fine. And it gave me a chance to rip on Souhan some more, so that's a plus.

CDog
06-08-2012, 11:03 AM
Your take was still a little different than Seth's so it is perfectly fine. And it gave me a chance to rip on Souhan some more, so that's a plus.

You need more/new reasons??? That doesn't seem likely.

Shane Wahl
06-08-2012, 11:17 AM
You need more/new reasons??? That doesn't seem likely.

It might be envy. I envy people who have such jobs, saying things that are not very intelligent.

Kirby_Waved_At_Me
06-08-2012, 11:41 AM
Maybe "depth" in the sense that there are more players at roughly the same level of effectiveness than there are at-bats to go around. They can't be all that deep if they only have two major-league ready starting Outfielders. It reminds me of when they had Bobby Kielty and Dustan Mohr sort-of platooning. That's not so much depth as it is not having anyone good enough to be the go-to starter. Lew Ford, Michael Restovich and Michael Ryan were all AAAA guys that weren't getting it done. So the Twins traded for Shannon Stewart and then they had *some* depth in that they could have Lew Ford come in when one of the Soul Patrol needed a day off.

The current team is similar in the outfield to 2002/2003 but tilted more to Offense over Defense starting. Revere has been pretty good this second time around, he might end up being the guy to take that 3rd spot. It seems like he's going to be given the chance to do it.

Fire Dan Gladden
06-08-2012, 11:58 AM
I am just embarrassed for all of you that read Souhan, much less try to put some credence to whatever spilled out of his fingers.

cr9617
06-08-2012, 12:19 PM
I am just embarrassed for all of you that read Souhan, much less try to put some credence to whatever spilled out of his fingers.

Tip of the cap to you...

DJSim22
06-08-2012, 12:40 PM
I am just embarrassed for all of you that read Souhan, much less try to put some credence to whatever spilled out of his fingers.

Completely agree. Souhan is an embarrasement.

twinsnorth49
06-08-2012, 01:37 PM
I am just embarrassed for all of you that read Souhan, much less try to put some credence to whatever spilled out of his fingers.


Completely agree. Souhan is an embarrasement.

I long ago decided the only way to rid myself of Souhan loathing was to stop reading him, so I did. I am cleansed.

spideyo
06-08-2012, 01:39 PM
If you consider some platooning situation of Plouffe, Parmelee, Doumit, and Mauer in RF a feasible solution, and you consider Revere to be an everyday starting CF, then we have INCREDIBLE depth for a bench-warming 4th OF who only plays about three innings a week.

jokin
06-08-2012, 01:46 PM
I wrote about that earlier this week, saying that it was a myth that the Twins had a lot of OF depth.

Where do you think he stole the idea from?

CDog
06-08-2012, 01:47 PM
I long ago decided the only way to rid myself of Souhan loathing was to stop reading him, so I did. I am cleansed.

I've been on the same treatment program for quite a long while...yet the loathing continues. Alas. Perhaps I need to go to some sort of "alternative medicine" type thing.

Boom Boom
06-08-2012, 01:58 PM
The Twins don't have a lot of outfield depth.

The difference between Span and Revere is not insignificant, but if you can improve your rotation enough to compensate for that difference plus some, I'd absolutely trade Span. It would have to be the right pitcher, though. A young guy with credentials that will be under team control for a few years.

jokin
06-08-2012, 02:13 PM
Does the general consensus (with which I concur) about the Twins NOT having depth in the OF disclose future intentions of the club? They drafted Buxton and Walker with top picks this week and they have Arcia, Rosario and possibly Sano ready to become ML outfielders as early as 2015 (earlier?). Are they thinking about the post-Willingham and Span lineup and will cast off most of the rest of this list to prepare for an OF anchored by Revere in center and some combination of the aforementioned youngsters. Not saying it is the right or wrong thinking, just wondering if that is what the Twins are thinking. This would mean a rebuilding process with some growing pains, perhaps precluding a winner until 2016 or later.

Alex
06-08-2012, 02:20 PM
Where do you think he stole the idea from?

Wow. It was an honest mistake and totally missed his post. No need to be a jerk about it. As mentioned, I browsed the recent forum topics as I hadn't read much here in a few days to try and avoid duplication. I didn't comb through the blogs, though.

As for the reading Souhan bit, it wasn't just him, but there were a lot of people on this site who were putting lineups together in a thread for 2014 or 15 or whatever that included Hicks, Revere, and or,Benson, as well as most of the discussion about Span being about traded because we have outfield depth. I definitely didn't mean to start a should we read Souhan or shouldn't we discussion.

jokin
06-08-2012, 02:33 PM
Wow. It was an honest mistake and totally missed his post. No need to be a jerk about it. As mentioned, I browsed the recent forum topics as I hadn't read much here in a few days to try and avoid duplication. I didn't comb through the blogs, though.

As for the reading Souhan bit, it wasn't just him, but there were a lot of people on this site who were putting lineups together in a thread for 2014 or 15 or whatever that included Hicks, Revere, and or,Benson, as well as most of the discussion about Span being about traded because we have outfield depth. I definitely didn't mean to start a should we read Souhan or shouldn't we discussion.

Double-Wow! Alex this was a jab at Souhan, not you. I thought it was obvious within the context of the discussion. Your analysis is always thoughtful and well-appreciated by me.

Alex
06-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Double-Wow! Alex this was a jab at Souhan, not you. I thought it was obvious within the context of the discussion. Your analysis is always thoughtful and well-appreciated by me.

Fair enough. As it was Seth replying to a thread I started, it seemed that the "he" in your thread was me. Thanks for the clarification.

Shane Wahl
06-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Prospects/young non-prospects:

AAA: Ramirez, and at some point this year (again . . .) Benson and Tosoni
AA: Hicks, Herrmann (as 4th/5th OF on top of catching), and eventually Arcia
A+: Morales, Ortiz, Ray, Rams
A-: JD Williams, Leachman, Roberts
Below: Byron Buxton, Dereck Rodriguez

I still consider this overall OF depth.

jokin
06-08-2012, 02:48 PM
Prospects/young non-prospects:

AAA: Ramirez, and at some point this year (again . . .) Benson and Tosoni
AA: Hicks, Herrmann (as 4th/5th OF on top of catching), and eventually Arcia
A+: Morales, Ortiz, Ray, Rams
A-: JD Williams, Leachman, Roberts
Below: Byron Buxton, Dereck Rodriguez

I still consider this overall OF depth.


I like the idea of Hermann becoming the next Doumit, IMO, the rest of this list is mostly "young non-prospects" rather than the former. Maybe, Benson comes around, I have high hopes for Arcia. I would still argue that the best two potential ML OFers at A- might be Rosario and Sano. Did you intentionally omit Walker from this list (DH only? He stole alot of bases for Jacksonville)?

Shane Wahl
06-08-2012, 03:21 PM
I like the idea of Hermann becoming the next Doumit, IMO, the rest of this list is mostly "young non-prospects" rather than the former. Maybe, Benson comes around, I have high hopes for Arcia. I would still argue that the best two potential ML OFers at A- might be Rosario and Sano. Did you intentionally omit Walker from this list (DH only? He stole alot of bases for Jacksonville)?

Oops, no I just forgot to add Walker. I still think it is possible for Tosoni to be a contributor, and Ramirez could too. Hicks will be fine. Good, not great. Morales is a question mark, but Ortiz and Ray are young and promising.

I hope that Rosario makes it as a second baseman. And I think Sano probably becomes a first baseman.

Herrmann is a defensive upgrade over Doumit. I just hope he is ready by the beginning of next season!

peterb18
06-08-2012, 03:38 PM
I have been as critical of Benson as most on this site. A very good athlete--but, is he a baseball player? However, he has big upside if it all comes together. Remember he was a full scholarship at Purdue in football, and it has always taken him a little longer to conquer a level than most high level players. As far as Hicks is concerned--(saw him play in Florida) and he has all the tools-size, strength, speed, etc to be a very good major leaguer-ala Tori Hunter. Both of these guys just need time-- it could all come together. Now Buxton is a different situation from the start. He is a baseball player(watch the videos) who just needs some seasoning. But, if all comes to fruition those three together will make a heck of an outfield. I think the Twins look at it that way!

jokin
06-08-2012, 04:01 PM
I have been as critical of Benson as most on this site. A very good athlete--but, is he a baseball player? However, he has big upside if it all comes together. Remember he was a full scholarship at Purdue in football, and it has always taken him a little longer to conquer a level than most high level players. As far as Hicks is concerned--(saw him play in Florida) and he has all the tools-size, strength, speed, etc to be a very good major leaguer-ala Tori Hunter. Both of these guys just need time-- it could all come together. Now Buxton is a different situation from the start. He is a baseball player(watch the videos) who just needs some seasoning. But, if all comes to fruition those three together will make a heck of an outfield. I think the Twins look at it that way!

I also like the potential upgrade in athleticism this trio has to offer. For the first two, though, the clock is ticking, and the time for them being in the "development and projection" stage of their careers is coming near the end and the "hoping and wishing" stage is soon upon us- I think both you and I, and the Twins, agree with your last sentiment, right now the big word in that last sentence is not "fruition", it's "IF".

James Richter
06-08-2012, 04:02 PM
If Benson had continued to progress at AAA, I would have said Span or especially Revere was expendable. With his demotion and DL time, though, I don't see him as someone the Twins can count on for opening day 2013. I'd hang onto all the outfielders until he's ready. Willingham, Span and Revere are all under team-friendly terms through at least 2014 - they'll be tradable next year, too. That said, if somebody's desperate this summer and wants to overpay, trade away.

Shane Wahl
06-08-2012, 05:10 PM
For anyone doubting Hicks, take a look at Denard Span's numbers in New Britain. Hicks looks to be Span with more power, less contact, and better all-around defense.

Alex
06-08-2012, 05:33 PM
For anyone doubting Hicks, take a look at Denard Span's numbers in New Britain. Hicks looks to be Span with more power, less contact, and better all-around defense.

I wondered when someone would bring him up. Span's an anamoly. Most players don't put up better numbers in the majors than they do in the minors, though he seemed to figure things out at AAA.

Alex
06-08-2012, 05:37 PM
Prospects/young non-prospects:

AAA: Ramirez, and at some point this year (again . . .) Benson and Tosoni
AA: Hicks, Herrmann (as 4th/5th OF on top of catching), and eventually Arcia
A+: Morales, Ortiz, Ray, Rams
A-: JD Williams, Leachman, Roberts
Below: Byron Buxton, Dereck Rodriguez

I still consider this overall OF depth.

I guess I consider that minor league depth or prospect depth, not overall organizational depth. When all the true talent/hope is below AA and just drafted, there's a lot that can happen between now and then, as we've seen with Benson and Hicks. There's not a single player there that we can project to be a legitimate starter in the next two years.

jokin
06-08-2012, 05:47 PM
I guess I consider that minor league depth or prospect depth, not overall organizational depth. When all the true talent/hope is below AA and just drafted, there's a lot that can happen between now and then, as we've seen with Benson and Hicks. There's not a single player there that we can project to be a legitimate starter in the next two years.

I concur (although Benson and Hicks could very well see some time as "tryout" starters in 2014, depending on who stays and who goes), and posted in this thread at #20 that 2015 is when the Twins think the "new era" will commence. Between then and now, I can guess more of the same status quo, keep-it-palatable-to-the-public, PR games from management.

Thrylos
06-08-2012, 06:53 PM
Prospects/young non-prospects:

AAA: Ramirez, and at some point this year (again . . .) Benson and Tosoni
AA: Hicks, Herrmann (as 4th/5th OF on top of catching), and eventually Arcia
A+: Morales, Ortiz, Ray, Rams
A-: JD Williams, Leachman, Roberts
Below: Byron Buxton, Dereck Rodriguez

I still consider this overall OF depth.

Got to add Adam Bret Walker II there some place, Max Keppel and I would argue maybe even Sano. There is a 17 year old kid in the Dominican called Junior Amarante who is another name to know from there. Danny Santana and Jairo Perez have both been playing a bit in the OF at Fort Myers, and Rosario is around in Beloit. so the Twins have some options.


About the Revere discussion. Revere has been hitting .307/.337/.409 a pretty respectable .746 OPS (109 OPS+) that is actually higher than Span's ;) And he has been playing better than Span lately and his glove is better than Span's. I would absolutely not mind if here replaces Span at this point, if the latter brings something (SP) back. Revere came back from AAA changed. Hope Parmelee is too...

Riverbrian
06-08-2012, 09:05 PM
Compared to other teams... The Twins DO NOT have OF depth.

Compared to the Current Pitching in the Twins Organization... The OF is the Mariana Trench.

If you guys want to be all sensible and point out that the Twins actually don't have OF depth... Well Damn You... you are completely crushing our dreams... Give us some hope please.

Without a doubt...OF is our deepest position organizationally. Actually OF depth would be 2nd in the organization.

1st would be Fox North Girls... We seem to have a bunch of those cuz we can toss others aside like Bobby Abreu.

roger
06-08-2012, 09:35 PM
No one talks about something Revere brings to the Twins that I believe is very important...energy! Some combination of that smile and speed just seems to get things happening. I don't know if anyone else agrees, but I see the Twins winning more when he is in the lineup every day. Not necessarily the offensive numbers and certainly not the arm, but he just brings added energy that makes the game more fun which seems to lead to more wins.

Dilligaf69
06-08-2012, 09:46 PM
I long ago decided the only way to rid myself of Souhan loathing was to stop reading him, so I did. I am cleansed.


I tend to agree on most of his articles but the thing that got me about this article in particular was that he criticized the Twins front office for making bad trades or at least not getting value in return...and yes he's right for the most part. Then he suggest we sell high which OK don't disagree with that either but then he goes onto say something like they should trade Liriano if he continues to go well but they should trade him if he does'nt???? Can't have it both ways Jim you want then to get value in return but trade players for the sake of trading them. IDK that's the way I read it.....anyway he's more or less a bore to read...never anything earth shattering.

Thrylos
06-08-2012, 10:10 PM
No one talks about something Revere brings to the Twins that I believe is very important...energy! Some combination of that smile and speed just seems to get things happening. I don't know if anyone else agrees, but I see the Twins winning more when he is in the lineup every day. Not necessarily the offensive numbers and certainly not the arm, but he just brings added energy that makes the game more fun which seems to lead to more wins.

Totally agree. And the Twins' as an organization unfortunately do not value that. Look at the energy their manager brings. Then look at the energy that someone like GoGo brought and you know what happened with him.... for some strange reason these Twins like low key robotic type of guys. They call that "professional"

CDog
06-09-2012, 12:32 AM
Totally agree. And the Twins' as an organization unfortunately do not value that. Look at the energy their manager brings. Then look at the energy that someone like GoGo brought and you know what happened with him.... for some strange reason these Twins like low key robotic type of guys. They call that "professional"

That's probably why you never hear anyone involved with the Twins mention Puckett. And I'm sure Hrbek's number was retired because of how "professional" he was. Certainly they would never overpay (according to many) or overplay (according to many) someone like Punto who was all energy. And they sure shipped Cuddyer and his smile and his hustle off as quickly as they could. And nobody but nobody got fewer chances than the probably-under-ready Carlos Gomez who absolutely did NOT play the same position as someone who was, you know, better.

Alex
06-09-2012, 12:50 AM
About the Revere discussion. Revere has been hitting .307/.337/.409 a pretty respectable .746 OPS (109 OPS+) that is actually higher than Span's ;) And he has been playing better than Span lately and his glove is better than Span's. I would absolutely not mind if here replaces Span at this point, if the latter brings something (SP) back. Revere came back from AAA changed. Hope Parmelee is too...

I definitely hope Revere's done something that has changed his swing definitively and he's going to hit for a higher average and keep getting extra base hits, and it definitely looks like it's possible, but we do have to be leery of a small sample size at least for the moment with him (I assume I don't need to quote the number of players who looked good for a small sample size this year, earning them a spot, only to find out they weren't ready).

As for Revere's defense, I don't think there can be much doubt that he'll be a fielder with better range than Span, but that arm has been getting run on like crazy.

Montecore
06-09-2012, 04:08 AM
Souhan is wrong as usual. There's never any rigor to his argument. "Span is a wonderful guy. Get rid of him." Cheap, fatuous cynicism. That's his raison d'etre.

Scheherezade
06-09-2012, 07:12 AM
Revere's batting .326/.361/.424 and is 8/9 on stolen bases this year in 92ABs. Do you really need a lot more than that for a speedy OF lead-off hitter?

Montecore
06-09-2012, 08:05 AM
Revere's batting .326/.361/.424 and is 8/9 on stolen bases this year in 92ABs. Do you really need a lot more than that for a speedy OF lead-off hitter? That bunt hit he got last night was a beaut.

Shane Wahl
06-09-2012, 09:10 AM
That bunt hit he got last night was a beaut.

Well no it wasn't a beaut at all. He just runs really fast.

But Revere's performance this year has been fantastic.

Alex
06-09-2012, 10:32 AM
Revere's batting .326/.361/.424 and is 8/9 on stolen bases this year in 92ABs. Do you really need a lot more than that for a speedy OF lead-off hitter?

Obviously not, and if he continues to hit this way, then that changes the discussion a bit. However, it's only 92 AB. As mentioned I hope it's indictative of actual improvement and not due to small sample size. As eluded to, the Twins judged Parmelee on a similar sample size that included Spring Training and a short debut and he clearly wasn't ready. Dozier's big league potential at the plate was evaluated based on a season at AA (age 24 no less).

So, while I'm definitely excited about how Revere is doing, he hasn't done enough to prove yet, IMO, that he's turned it around enough to be an MLB regular starter. Nor, in the context of this discussion, does success over 100 ABs suddenly alter the idea that the Twins have depth at OF.

Alex
06-09-2012, 10:36 AM
Souhan is wrong as usual. There's never any rigor to his argument. "Span is a wonderful guy. Get rid of him." Cheap, fatuous cynicism. That's his raison d'etre.

Ironically, I'm often critical of him for just the opposite, he focuses too much on the character of a player (Cuddyer, Slowey, Dozier) as a condition for which we should keep/move them. But, yes, he definitely lacks rigor on a regular basis.

one_eyed_jack
06-09-2012, 11:20 AM
Ironically, I'm often critical of him for just the opposite, he focuses too much on the character of a player (Cuddyer, Slowey, Dozier) as a condition for which we should keep/move them. But, yes, he definitely lacks rigor on a regular basis.

---What's also interesting is that while that's consistently an issue for Souhan with the Twins (and in all fairness, he has a point on Slowey), he's completely the opposite on the T-Wolves. Every other month he writes a column railing on David Kahn for not drafting DeMarcus Cousins that includes a rant about how his talent justifies having to deal with his character issues.

ashburyjohn
06-09-2012, 12:00 PM
Revere's batting .326/.361/.424 and is 8/9 on stolen bases this year in 92ABs. Do you really need a lot more than that for a speedy OF lead-off hitter?

Rickey Henderson brought all that plus power. There's nothing wrong with starting a game ahead 1-0. And the threat of power brings more walks, boosting the OBP that your leadoff hitter thrives on.

If Revere is able to maintain this pace for his batting average then obviously he's an asset. If he drops to .279 then he's really not, whereas a more complete hitter like Henderson remained an asset (and then some) with his lifetime .279. I hope Revere can do it. It's rare to hit .326 in the majors, but it would be cool if he can be one of the few.

CharacterGroove
06-10-2012, 01:21 PM
I didn't read Souhan's article, but I agree with his premise as stated on this thread.

The Twins do have good outfield depth to replace Denard Span.

Of course, that statement makes certain assumptions that are certainly debatable. One, it assumes that Revere can replace Span's center field and lead off contributions. I firmly believe he can. Second, it assumes that right field will be at least as good without Revere. I think it can be.

So, instead of:

LF: Willingham/Plouffe/Parmalee
CF: Span/Revere/Mastroianni
RF: Revere/Doumit/Plouffe/Mastroianni

The Twins would have:

LF: Willingham/Plouffe/Parmalee
CF: Revere/Mastroianni
RF: Doumit/Plouffe/Mastroianni/[Arcia?]

CharacterGroove
06-10-2012, 01:26 PM
Obviously not, and if he continues to hit this way, then that changes the discussion a bit. However, it's only 92 AB. As mentioned I hope it's indictative of actual improvement and not due to small sample size. As eluded to, the Twins judged Parmelee on a similar sample size that included Spring Training and a short debut and he clearly wasn't ready. Dozier's big league potential at the plate was evaluated based on a season at AA (age 24 no less).

So, while I'm definitely excited about how Revere is doing, he hasn't done enough to prove yet, IMO, that he's turned it around enough to be an MLB regular starter. Nor, in the context of this discussion, does success over 100 ABs suddenly alter the idea that the Twins have depth at OF.

The sample size is much greater than 92 ABs. Without even looking at his impressive minor league numbers, he got 400+ ABs as a 23-year-old rookie. Now, the numbers weren't all that great, but they were certainly something that coaches expect to built upon. Which he's done so far.

Alex
06-10-2012, 01:51 PM
The sample size is much greater than 92 ABs. Without even looking at his impressive minor league numbers, he got 400+ ABs as a 23-year-old rookie. Now, the numbers weren't all that great, but they were certainly something that coaches expect to built upon. Which he's done so far.

I agree, the sample size is much bigger, but as you mentioned it isn't good when you include those other 400. My point was the sample size of his success is small.

As for other thoughts, for Revere to equal Span's contributions at leadoff, he has to hit around .330 unless he starts taking more walks.

Plouffe , Mastroianni, Parmelee in right (if Span is traded) don't really equal a quality MLB starter unless they get significantly better.

jokin
06-10-2012, 03:44 PM
The Twins do have good outfield depth to replace Denard Span.

Of course, that statement makes certain assumptions that are certainly debatable. One, it assumes that Revere can replace Span's center field and lead off contributions. I firmly believe he can. Second, it assumes that right field will be at least as good without Revere. I think it can be.



The Twins would have:

LF: Willingham/Plouffe/Parmalee
CF: Revere/Mastroianni
RF: Doumit/Plouffe/Mastroianni/[Arcia?]

Your proposed depth chart belies your opening declarative supposition. Leaving the Twins with only one proven full-time ML outfielder (Willingham) and "belief" and "assumptions" about your starting CF and RF usually cost a GM his job, if those beliefs and assumptions don't work out (Revere DOES look better the third time out, but it's probably too soon to dump Span with his team-friendly contract without a great haul in return-of-trade). In addition, it appear the Twins are headed in the direction of using Plouffe and Doumit in other more primary roles, and neither are good defensively in the OF. Mastroianni is a defensive replacement/PR 4th/5th OF, at best and Parmelee might morph into Kubel at some point, but still relies on belief and assumption in the short-term, looking out this and next season. I like fast-tracking Arcia, but you'd still be heavy on belief and assumption.

CharacterGroove
06-10-2012, 04:43 PM
Your proposed depth chart belies your opening declarative supposition. Leaving the Twins with only one proven full-time ML outfielder (Willingham) and "belief" and "assumptions" about your starting CF and RF usually cost a GM his job, if those beliefs and assumptions don't work out (Revere DOES look better the third time out, but it's probably too soon to dump Span with his team-friendly contract without a great haul in return-of-trade). In addition, it appear the Twins are headed in the direction of using Plouffe and Doumit in other more primary roles, and neither are good defensively in the OF. Mastroianni is a defensive replacement/PR 4th/5th OF, at best and Parmelee might morph into Kubel at some point, but still relies on belief and assumption in the short-term, looking out this and next season. I like fast-tracking Arcia, but you'd still be heavy on belief and assumption.

Being that we're prognosticating on future events, I'm comfortable making assumptions and statements based on belief. For instance, I'm assuming Span will not fall into a tailspin and end up with numbers like in 2010 and 2011 - mediocre at best. Projections go both ways. If you want to have a conversation void of assumptions and beliefs, and just stick to the hard numbers, start a thread about the 2011 Twins.

I'm also not making any suggestion that we should "dump" Denard Span. I'm not even sure why that's a point of discussion. The entire point is about getting a great "return-of-trade" in the context of the Twins' strengths and weaknesses. It's my position - and apparently Souhan's - that the Twins have good outfield depth as it applies to their 40-man roster. What the Twins do not have is good starting pitching.

As I mentioned, it's certainly debatable but I believe that Revere is good replacement for Span in centerfield and the combination of Plouffe/Doumit/Parmelee can adequately replace Revere in right. I do not think the Twins are better in the outfield without Denard Span, of course, but that's how trading works. The other team wants value too. The goal is to have a better team (either in the short or long term - or both), not a better outfield.

jokin
06-10-2012, 04:54 PM
Being that we're prognosticating on future events, I'm comfortable making assumptions and statements based on belief. For instance, I'm assuming Span will not fall into a tailspin and end up with numbers like in 2010 and 2011 - mediocre at best. Projections go both ways. If you want to have a conversation void of assumptions and beliefs, and just stick to the hard numbers, start a thread about the 2011 Twins.

I'm also not making any suggestion that we should "dump" Denard Span. I'm not even sure why that's a point of discussion. The entire point is about getting a great "return-of-trade" in the context of the Twins' strengths and weaknesses. It's my position - and apparently Souhan's - that the Twins have good outfield depth as it applies to their 40-man roster. What the Twins do not have is good starting pitching.

As I mentioned, it's certainly debatable but I believe that Revere is good replacement for Span in centerfield and the combination of Plouffe/Doumit/Parmelee can adequately replace Revere in right. I do not think the Twins are better in the outfield without Denard Span, of course, but that's how trading works. The other team wants value too. The goal is to have a better team (either in the short or long term - or both), not a better outfield.

Agree with most of your reasonable conclusions, but the point of Souhan's article is based on the erroneous assumption that the Twins possess OF depth. It's fairly demonstrable that they do not. Again, Plouffe and Doumit appear destined to be playing large roles elsewhere (and the Twins must re-sign Doumit) and Parmelee is a big question mark, it might take him 2+ seasons to firmly establish himself in RF, and there's a good chance a trade for Morneau occurs, leaving 1B open.

Shane Wahl
06-10-2012, 05:14 PM
Doumit is going to seek money and years. Chris Herrmann may be able to fulfill much of his role (so hopefully they get around to promoting him to Rochester very soon instead of stalling on him). Doumit may be a trade candidate. Plouffe is hopefully making Danny Valencia irrelevant. So RF is still a question mark. Benson and Tosoni were DEMOTED. The system has some OF depth, but the Twins strictly as the MLB team do not.

Thrylos
06-10-2012, 06:40 PM
Doumit is going to seek money and years. Chris Herrmann may be able to fulfill much of his role (so hopefully they get around to promoting him to Rochester very soon instead of stalling on him). .

100% agreed. JR Towles is hitting a Buteresque .193/.242/.295 at Rochester and he needs to go. Promote Herrmann to AAA, Pinto to AA, Koch to Fort Myers, add one of the EST Cs to Beloit (Quintera?) and call it a day.

CharacterGroove
06-10-2012, 08:07 PM
Agree with most of your reasonable conclusions, but the point of Souhan's article is based on the erroneous assumption that the Twins possess OF depth. It's fairly demonstrable that they do not. Again, Plouffe and Doumit appear destined to be playing large roles elsewhere (and the Twins must re-sign Doumit) and Parmelee is a big question mark, it might take him 2+ seasons to firmly establish himself in RF, and there's a good chance a trade for Morneau occurs, leaving 1B open.

Some fair points. My reply is that your conclusion is only demonstrable if you assume the destinies of Plouffe and Doumit and assume that Parmelee does not improve on his Spring 2012 form. You may be right. Going beyond this year, it also assumes the growth of our top outfield prospects. It's possible I'm just much more optimistic than you about our outfield options moving forward.

Alex
06-10-2012, 09:48 PM
Some fair points. My reply is that your conclusion is only demonstrable if you assume the destinies of Plouffe and Doumit and assume that Parmelee does not improve on his Spring 2012 form. You may be right. Going beyond this year, it also assumes the growth of our top outfield prospects. It's possible I'm just much more optimistic than you about our outfield options moving forward.


Nothing wrong with being optimistic.

My perspective,though, was that these players haven't shown evidence (except in very small stretches) that there is reason to. Taking a look at their development, they don't have the same record that potential ML OF show in the minors. In fact, most of their limited success in the minors has come when they are more experienced than the competition. Until one of them shows that they have made some significant change, the Twins can't pretend they have even a single future starting caliber OF of the bunch.

BTW, the minor point regarding Souhan's comment was that he believed Span should be traded due to outfield depth.

So, my point is that if any decisions are made now about perceived outfield depth, those decisions are being made far to hastily.

Hope that makes sense.

Riverbrian
06-10-2012, 11:28 PM
The Twins are in Dire Straits. We have a rebuilt bullpen that is doing alright and yet no one has faith in it. The pitching rotation is being led Diamond and Walters. A pair who have been cast aside by other clubs... The other guys have been inconsisentant at best or downright terrible.

On offense we have a couple of superstars who get injured frequently. An infield is led by a 38 year old journeyman... The 185th ranked prospect at SS and a kid out of options that was recently hitting .120 something before his recent resurgence.

Look at the team... Willingham, Span and Revere is the best thing happening on the MLB Twins. Down on the farm, our highest rated prospects are outfielders. 3 out of the top 6 are outfielders yet none of them are top 60 in ranking. The one guy we have that is near the top ten in Sano Is years off from helping and projected to a possible move to the OF and our 2nd pick overall is a Projected Eric Davis type OF.

If you polled 30 General managers and asked them where the Twins organization was the strongest 28 of them would say OF. 1 of them would break out into a laughing fit at the consideration of the question and the other would decline to participate because he is currently running the Twins and doing a price check on a physician to help him with his growing ulcer caused by the fact that the Twins have no depth anywhere.

I'm a Span Fan but if he can fetch anything that will turn this ship around. Away he should go for a good package of players. If no trade like that is possible... He's welcome to stay but it won't matter WITHOUT pitching. Trade Span and give Carson a spin for awhile... It won't matter without PITCHING.

We don't have depth anywhere... Not even close but OF is as deep as we can get. People can talk about keeping Span and wouldn't it be nice but I hope to God someone in the front office is getting really serious about bringing some serious arms into the organization.

Its hard to do because everyone wants pitching. It will take a Span to get some potential pitching and thats about all we got right now.

striker_86
06-10-2012, 11:36 PM
I love span, the guy can hit, and draws a lot of walks. He is solid in center. You gotta think that some teams would be interested in that. Maybe a contender who needs a leadoff guy. Kind of like the Shannon Stewart trade for the twins in 03.

Riverbrian
06-11-2012, 12:19 AM
I love span, the guy can hit, and draws a lot of walks. He is solid in center. You gotta think that some teams would be interested in that. Maybe a contender who needs a leadoff guy. Kind of like the Shannon Stewart trade for the twins in 03.

Someone will offer something. His contract... Talent and experience would be exactly what a contender is looking for. There are teams looking like contenders right now that have a need and there are teams that will lose someone to injury before the all star break creating a need.

Also any team in contention will be itchy to get scratched especially if the team they are chasing or being chased by is upgrading at the deadline. This type of thinking cost us Ramos. It's not new thinking. It happens every year.

Alex
06-11-2012, 08:34 AM
Someone will offer something. His contract... Talent and experience would be exactly what a contender is looking for. There are teams looking like contenders right now that have a need and there are teams that will lose someone to injury before the all star break creating a need.

Also any team in contention will be itchy to get scratched especially if the team they are chasing or being chased by is upgrading at the deadline. This type of thinking cost us Ramos. It's not new thinking. It happens every year.

Span is not worth a solid starting pitcher. Starting pitching is just too valuable. Ask yourself if you were a GM, would you trade a starting pitcher for Span. If you're answer is yes, then give me some examples of a team and a pitcher.

That said, I'm actually fine if the Twins trade Span for good minor league prospects at infield positions, but that has nothing to do with having depth at the OF positions. I think they're at a point where they need to start selling current pieces for overall prospect depth.

I think the Twins have depth at first base and catcher, but you're right in that if there is depth anywhere, it is the OF, but simply having a lot of OF in the minors, of course, isn't true depth -- everyone has a lot of young OF in their minors.

powrwrap
06-11-2012, 09:48 AM
simply having a lot of OF in the minors, of course, isn't true depth -- everyone has a lot of young OF in their minors.

Precisely what I was going to post, but you saved me the trouble.

ashburyjohn
06-11-2012, 11:40 AM
Precisely what I was going to post, but you saved me the trouble.

I was just about to say that, but you made it unnecessary.

powrwrap
06-11-2012, 11:53 AM
I was just about to say that, but you made it unnecessary.

I like the way you think.

ashburyjohn
06-11-2012, 02:25 PM
Souhan is wrong as usual. There's never any rigor to his argument. "Span is a wonderful guy. Get rid of him." Cheap, fatuous cynicism. That's his raison d'etre.

Fatuous, drunk and stupid is no way for a sportswriter to go through life. Well, drunk is probably a job requirement.

Riverbrian
06-11-2012, 09:56 PM
Span is not worth a solid starting pitcher. Starting pitching is just too valuable. Ask yourself if you were a GM, would you trade a starting pitcher for Span. If you're answer is yes, then give me some examples of a team and a pitcher.

That said, I'm actually fine if the Twins trade Span for good minor league prospects at infield positions, but that has nothing to do with having depth at the OF positions. I think they're at a point where they need to start selling current pieces for overall prospect depth.

I think the Twins have depth at first base and catcher, but you're right in that if there is depth anywhere, it is the OF, but simply having a lot of OF in the minors, of course, isn't true depth -- everyone has a lot of young OF in their minors.

What are you accusing me of? LOL. At no point did I say that Verlander was coming our way in return. Turner maybe.

You see it works this way. Teams in contention do not want to part with a player who helped them contend. They want to get stronger. In order to get stronger they trade for players like Span who provide better defense or that leadoff hitter they lack. They trade young players who are not helping the team win right now but players who may help a cellar dweller contend next year or the year after that... Or year after that.

For example the Giants may consider giving up Zach Wheeler to the Mets for Beltran to fill an offensive hole. I'm not saying they would do that but they might. Hell they may do that just to RENT Beltran for a two months knowing he might sign with the Cardinals as a free agent in the off season. I know it sounds crazy but the Giants would consider this sort of thing. The lure of the playoffs does crazy things. I'm not proving anything... I think the Giants might give up a Zach Wheeler in that scenario.

For Example... The Braves may consider moving 3 pitching prospects to the Astros for someone like Bourn. They may even send a good OF prospect to sweeten the deal. No way of knowing if they would do this but the Braves are thinking about the leadoff need they have. We will have wait and see.

I could see a team like the Red Sox needing a hitting catcher like V-mart and offering up someone like Masterson and Hagedone and another pitching prospect.

The Reds may need a 3B for the stretch drive. Rolen might do the trick. They might give up someone like Zack Stewart and another pitching prospect.

The Yankees may need a bat off the bench and go for someone like Lance Berkman with injury history and give up a Mark Melencon in return. The Astros might take that deal.

3 team deals are also possibilities. I know its a long shot but Ryan Ludwick could be shipped to the Padres to bolster a bad offense while contending. The Padres could send some AA pitcher to the Indians and the Indians could send... Oh I don't know... Some sinkerballer like Westbrook.

These are hypothetical examples.

I realize that nothing like this happened in the past two or 3 years but maybe if went back furthur in time we could find some examples.

jokin
06-11-2012, 11:32 PM
What are you accusing me of? LOL. At no point did I say that Verlander was coming our way in return. Turner maybe.

You see it works this way. Teams in contention do not want to part with a player who helped them contend. They want to get stronger. In order to get stronger they trade for players like Span who provide better defense or that leadoff hitter they lack. They trade young players who are not helping the team win right now but players who may help a cellar dweller contend next year or the year after that... Or year after that.

For example the Giants may consider giving up Zach Wheeler to the Mets for Beltran to fill an offensive hole. I'm not saying they would do that but they might. Hell they may do that just to RENT Beltran for a two months knowing he might sign with the Cardinals as a free agent in the off season. I know it sounds crazy but the Giants would consider this sort of thing. The lure of the playoffs does crazy things. I'm not proving anything... I think the Giants might give up a Zach Wheeler in that scenario.

For Example... The Braves may consider moving 3 pitching prospects to the Astros for someone like Bourn. They may even send a good OF prospect to sweeten the deal. No way of knowing if they would do this but the Braves are thinking about the leadoff need they have. We will have wait and see.

I could see a team like the Red Sox needing a hitting catcher like V-mart and offering up someone like Masterson and Hagedone and another pitching prospect.

The Reds may need a 3B for the stretch drive. Rolen might do the trick. They might give up someone like Zack Stewart and another pitching prospect.

The Yankees may need a bat off the bench and go for someone like Lance Berkman with injury history and give up a Mark Melencon in return. The Astros might take that deal.

3 team deals are also possibilities. I know its a long shot but Ryan Ludwick could be shipped to the Padres to bolster a bad offense while contending. The Padres could send some AA pitcher to the Indians and the Indians could send... Oh I don't know... Some sinkerballer like Westbrook.

These are hypothetical examples.

I realize that nothing like this happened in the past two or 3 years but maybe if went back furthur in time we could find some examples.

QEDDDDDDDDDDDDDD......

Bottom line is: "valuable pieces" are only deemed valuable in the eye of the beholder and sometimes the beholder's eyes can see the pennant fly if the glimmer of the fleeting fixation of their potential pennant dreams is acquirable. It is incumbent on teams like the Twins to make their tradeable baubles burn brighly, explore ALL options, to take the short-term PR-and-team-cohesion hit,ultimately strengthening and solidifying the areas of current weakness (pitching!) for the long-term.

Alex
06-12-2012, 12:06 AM
These are hypothetical examples.

I realize that nothing like this happened in the past two or 3 years but maybe if went back furthur in time we could find some examples.

Nice, something I said must have struck a nerve there to account for that much detail (and yes, I get how it works). Well, we'll see if Span's apparent value (the player we were discussing) to another team garners something like this. I really don't see it, considering that the last offer we heard was for a closer. Maybe Ryan will be able to get more than that.

jokin
06-12-2012, 01:06 AM
I really don't see it, considering that the last offer we heard was for a closer. Maybe Ryan will be able to get more than that.

Ryan as sure as Hades better get more than a "closer" or you simply don't pull the trigger.

1)It's all in the marketing by the Twins to create a bidding war,
2)The perceived need of the potential Suitors,
3)The few teams with a need to Win Now and/or have club organizational depth at P and,
4)The Twins doing their homework and poker-playing in identifying who they want but not tipping their hand prematurely (note: I didn't say SP alone, there are other sub-quasi-Johan Santana-esque minor leaguers waiting to be found);
5)Which is why Span stays in CF, despite protestatons from Souhan (who does a nice job at confounding his own logic in advocating the trade in the first place), et al, to put him in RF.

glunn
06-12-2012, 01:27 AM
What are you accusing me of? LOL. At no point did I say that Verlander was coming our way in return. Turner maybe.

You see it works this way. Teams in contention do not want to part with a player who helped them contend. They want to get stronger. In order to get stronger they trade for players like Span who provide better defense or that leadoff hitter they lack. They trade young players who are not helping the team win right now but players who may help a cellar dweller contend next year or the year after that... Or year after that.

For example the Giants may consider giving up Zach Wheeler to the Mets for Beltran to fill an offensive hole. I'm not saying they would do that but they might. Hell they may do that just to RENT Beltran for a two months knowing he might sign with the Cardinals as a free agent in the off season. I know it sounds crazy but the Giants would consider this sort of thing. The lure of the playoffs does crazy things. I'm not proving anything... I think the Giants might give up a Zach Wheeler in that scenario.

For Example... The Braves may consider moving 3 pitching prospects to the Astros for someone like Bourn. They may even send a good OF prospect to sweeten the deal. No way of knowing if they would do this but the Braves are thinking about the leadoff need they have. We will have wait and see.

I could see a team like the Red Sox needing a hitting catcher like V-mart and offering up someone like Masterson and Hagedone and another pitching prospect.

The Reds may need a 3B for the stretch drive. Rolen might do the trick. They might give up someone like Zack Stewart and another pitching prospect.

The Yankees may need a bat off the bench and go for someone like Lance Berkman with injury history and give up a Mark Melencon in return. The Astros might take that deal.

3 team deals are also possibilities. I know its a long shot but Ryan Ludwick could be shipped to the Padres to bolster a bad offense while contending. The Padres could send some AA pitcher to the Indians and the Indians could send... Oh I don't know... Some sinkerballer like Westbrook.

These are hypothetical examples.

I realize that nothing like this happened in the past two or 3 years but maybe if went back furthur in time we could find some examples.

Great post Brian. Some of those trades actually seemed plausible.

peterb18
06-12-2012, 07:27 AM
You see it works this way. Teams in contention do not want to part with a player who helped them contend. They want to get stronger. In order to get stronger they trade for players like Span who provide better defense or that leadoff hitter they lack. They trade young players who are not helping the team win right now but players who may help a cellar dweller contend next year or the year after that... Or year after that.

Riverbrian your quote from above is exactly right. I was listening to Baseball America on XM this spring and a caller asked about the Twins and Casey Stern gave an interesting quote. He said something like, "I can't understand the Twins-most teams when they have 93 wins(this refers to the 2010 season) will try to take the next step and try to strenghten the team. The Twins took the opposite approach and started to lower payroll and decimate the team." That is one of the reasons that I don't have any faith in the Pohlads to take the next step.

The whole question of outfield depth really comes down to the development of Benson and HIcks--and Buxton.

CDog
06-12-2012, 09:39 AM
I was listening to Baseball America on XM this spring and a caller asked about the Twins and Casey Stern gave an interesting quote. He said something like, "I can't understand the Twins-most teams when they have 93 wins(this refers to the 2010 season) will try to take the next step and try to strenghten the team. The Twins took the opposite approach and started to lower payroll and decimate the team." That is one of the reasons that I don't have any faith in the Pohlads to take the next step.

Whereas that is an example of how much I notice national media often have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to details. From 2010 to 2011, payroll increased (more than the amount of Mauer's raise).

Riverbrian
06-12-2012, 11:39 AM
Nice, something I said must have struck a nerve there to account for that much detail (and yes, I get how it works). Well, we'll see if Span's apparent value (the player we were discussing) to another team garners something like this. I really don't see it, considering that the last offer we heard was for a closer. Maybe Ryan will be able to get more than that.

No Nerve was struck... Honest. I just need to use emoticons more often. :)

Posts can come across differently at times without those little emoticons. ;)

My examples of trades for pitching was my dry sense of humor. This may be a surprise to some but sometimes I use humor in my posts. :D

Most of the time the humor falls flat but I'm undetered and I keep trying. :o

On the subject of Span's trade value. We will have to disagree to disagree. The combination of Span's leadoff hitter ability and MLB experience makes him very attractive to a team trying to improve themselves at the deadline.

On Top of that. Players like Ian Kinsler are batting lead off when players of that ilk could be in a better position down in the order with players on base.

On Top of that... Span's contract will make him extremely attractive. Span would not be a trade deadline rental. He would fit into the squad for years and his contract will increase his value and on paper should provide a better prospect.

I will admit... That I have never recieved a phone call from a GM asking me to consider a trade. So my knowledge of trade value is as flawed as anyone else on this board. I can only go by what I've seen in years past and I listed the examples.

My Observance of baseball trades and my knowledge of human nature tells me this. No one trades a player unless there is something wrong with them.

Prospects are traded because they can't help right now. That is something wrong with that player. Veterens are traded because they are about to hit the FA Market and the team can't afford to keep them. That is something wrong with that player. Or Veterens are traded because they have an attitude problem and don't mesh with the team. That is something wrong with that player. Or in Span's case... They are traded because the team he plays on has an overwhelming hole elsewhere that needs to be addressed. Span is playing on the wrong team and has value... And that is something wrong with Span. Although not really.

We will not get Verlander or a Fister. The only way we can get a Verlander for the future is to draft him and get lucky or roll the dice with a young prospect in a trade who can develop into one but not there yet. It's a dice roll but Twins pitching has to be addressed. Span fetches the biggest return in my opinion.

For those who want to hang on to Span. I understand... I do to. But if Pitching isn't addressed. This organization is heading for a stretch of mediocre and it will last. Span does us no good with Scott Diamond as the #1 Pitcher in 2013 and 2014. We can Sign a FA or two next year to fill the pitching holes. But what happens when two of them get hurt... The Twins pitching at the upper levels is scary problematic. We need Arms and lots of them. It's roll the dice time at the deadline. C'mon 7!!!

Alex
06-12-2012, 12:44 PM
On the subject of Span's trade value. We will have to disagree to disagree. The combination of Span's leadoff hitter ability and MLB experience makes him very attractive to a team trying to improve themselves at the deadline.

Somewhere these the conversation got muddled, though we will have to disagree on Span's value. My point wasn't that I think we should necessarily hold onto Span, but that we shouldn't be disappointed if we don't get starting pitching (and I don't expect to) for him. That doesn't mean he might not bring something else that is interesting or useful. However, my whole point of this topic was not really about trading Span. It was more about the fact that when people talk of trading Span as well as other topics (like the draft), part of the discussion is OF depth, and I don't think our OF depth should really be considered because it doesn't really exist.

Alex
06-12-2012, 12:48 PM
The whole question of outfield depth really comes down to the development of Benson and HIcks--and Buxton.

It certainly does, though Buxton is much further away than the first two, and those first two aren't projecting to be major league starters right now.

StormJH1
06-13-2012, 12:23 PM
The longer this plays out, the more I'm of the mindset that we just keep Span. The Nationals are not going to give up a quality arm for Span. They just got through the scare of having Strasburg go down with TJ surgery, and luckily he came back strong because...he's Stephen Strasburg. They drafted Lucas Giolito at Pick 16. I think they recognize that a stockpile of quality starting pitchers is a good way to insure themselves against future injuries and to stay competitive. Plus, they're probably fully aware of many of Span's shortcomings.

Shane Wahl
06-13-2012, 01:34 PM
For those who want to hang on to Span. I understand... I do to. But if Pitching isn't addressed. This organization is heading for a stretch of mediocre and it will last. Span does us no good with Scott Diamond as the #1 Pitcher in 2013 and 2014. We can Sign a FA or two next year to fill the pitching holes. But what happens when two of them get hurt... The Twins pitching at the upper levels is scary problematic. We need Arms and lots of them. It's roll the dice time at the deadline. C'mon 7!!!

And what happens if Ben Revere gets hurt next year or is nowhere near the leadoff hitter he looks like he could be this year? It works the same both ways with injuries. I am slowly coming around to entertaining the Span trade talk, but not seriously until a month from now and then if only Ben Revere hasn't turned into a pumpkin.

Other people undervaluing Span are undervaluing the leadoff position and ow important it is to get on base as the guy coming to the plate the most times in a game.

Shane Wahl
06-13-2012, 01:35 PM
It certainly does, though Buxton is much further away than the first two, and those first two aren't projecting to be major league starters right now.

The Benson problem this year raises a number of issues, yes. That's like a domino because he and Tosoni were the guys readyish to contribute. Hicks is likely a September 2013 call-up. Arcia is the other one.