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Andy4Twins
06-04-2012, 04:50 PM
Another night where Willingham is the DH and Revere is playing RF. Can someone explain this to me at all?

ashburyjohn
06-04-2012, 05:11 PM
My take: Gardy likes to assign roles to his players. Willingham is the regular LF, Span is the regular in CF. At this point Revere is the third starter, so he gets RF. Plouffe is the utility guy and gets either RF or LF depending on who is sitting.

At least, this week.

stringer bell
06-04-2012, 05:34 PM
It probably won't matter, but this choice seems pretty foolish.

John Bonnes
06-04-2012, 05:35 PM
This drives me crazy. Nuts.

ashburyjohn
06-04-2012, 05:40 PM
Revere's arm is so epically weak that maybe it actually makes sense; could runners routinely be going first-to-third on a single to left when Ben is there? If so, right is not really any worse, and gives Gardy the stability he likes.

USAFChief
06-04-2012, 05:45 PM
Revere's arm is a problem no matter where you play him. It's only marginally worse in RF. For every runner that goes first to third on Revere in right (that wouldn't have gone first to third anyway), there is some percentage that don't go 2nd to home now, 3rd to home now, or first to third on balls hit to left now, that would do just that were Revere in LF. The number of bases saved by playing him in left isn't likely very large. Some, no doubt, but it's not like Revere's arm won't be taken advantage of if he was in left. Or center, for that matter. Revere's range plays in right just as well as in left. Obsessing over which OF position Revere plays seems to me to be obsessing over trivia.

Scheherezade
06-04-2012, 05:47 PM
Wherever he plays, he is truly a joy to watch. Put your stats down and watch him tumble: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=21975557&topic_id=&c_id=min&tcid=vpp_copy_21975557&v=3

gunnarthor
06-04-2012, 05:48 PM
I'd guess Revere's range in right makes up for his his arm.

CDog
06-04-2012, 11:13 PM
During spring training, Gardy mentioned not liking the way Revere played LF (and Revere made comments to the effect that he agreed). I don't recall if there were more details than that given (or what they were). Someone give my needle a bump...thanks.

Shane Wahl
06-04-2012, 11:18 PM
During spring training, Gardy mentioned not liking the way Revere played LF (and Revere made comments to the effect that he agreed). I don't recall if there were more details than that given (or what they were). Someone give my needle a bump...thanks.

Yeah, CDog is getting tired pointing this out. So there's that, but my god, why doesn't anyone in the "access" media find out exactly what went on and is going on there? I know there were statements made by Gardenhire, and I think they involved bad routes or something and someone here attested to the fact that he had some miscues. . . . but it was in SPRING TRAINING and it wasn't late in it either (as though that matters). It makes me have conniption fits if I think about it too much. It's just crazy. YET ANOTHER ridiculous decision based on SPRING TRAINING.

Shane Wahl
06-04-2012, 11:19 PM
Revere's arm is a problem no matter where you play him. It's only marginally worse in RF. For every runner that goes first to third on Revere in right (that wouldn't have gone first to third anyway), there is some percentage that don't go 2nd to home now, 3rd to home now, or first to third on balls hit to left now, that would do just that were Revere in LF. The number of bases saved by playing him in left isn't likely very large. Some, no doubt, but it's not like Revere's arm won't be taken advantage of if he was in left. Or center, for that matter. Revere's range plays in right just as well as in left. Obsessing over which OF position Revere plays seems to me to be obsessing over trivia.

Did third base move somewhere else?

spideyo
06-04-2012, 11:21 PM
Which would you rather have, a slightly stronger arm in RF or someone who can catch? Revere is going to catch a helluva lot more balls than Plouffe, so where is that more valuable? It seems like teams are typically more willing to put their worst defender in LF, and when you have Span, Revere, and Plouffe, Plouffe is far and away the worst one.

CDog
06-04-2012, 11:25 PM
Yeah, CDog is getting tired pointing this out. So there's that, but my god, why doesn't anyone in the "access" media find out exactly what went on and is going on there? I know there were statements made by Gardenhire, and I think they involved bad routes or something and someone here attested to the fact that he had some miscues. . . . but it was in SPRING TRAINING and it wasn't late in it either (as though that matters). It makes me have conniption fits if I think about it too much. It's just crazy. YET ANOTHER ridiculous decision based on SPRING TRAINING.

And as long as I'm repeating myself, let me make it clear that I'm only revealing what I have gathered as the reason for it. Not only do I not have the information to know if it's the correct decision, but I likely wouldn't know what to do with the information if I had it. (As in, I saw precious little during spring training and don't have the expertise of a scout or coach at that level.)

twinstalker
06-04-2012, 11:27 PM
His arm is so bad it doesn't matter which field he's in? Wow. I can't really appropriately respond to that logic. Yes I can. Let's say he had no throwing arm attached at all. He'd had to run every ball in. He'd be much more valuable in left than right in that extreme situation. The situation you're looking for is the one where he throws every ball into the stands. I haven't seen him do that yet on a ball in play.

Riverbrian
06-05-2012, 12:10 AM
His arm is below par but too much is made of it. He can find the cut off guy. That will keep the trailing runner held. He's just not gonna rifle one ala Bryce Harper. Guess what... Neither is Span or Willingham.

In the same breath... Gardy wrings his hands over RF or LF and permanent positions. The spin is different off the bat. They will figure it out. They've played the game before.

USAFChief
06-05-2012, 01:02 AM
Did third base move somewhere else?

I don't understand why this is hard to comprehend. With Revere in right, and Willingham (or Plouffe) in left, more runners will go 1st to 3rd on a single. But...some runners will not go 1st to 3rd on a single to left, respecting Willingham's arm. Fewer, but not zero. Likewise, a runner here and there will not tag up and score on a fly ball to Willingham, but would tag and score were Revere in left. A couple times a year, a runner on 2nd will stop at third on a sharp single to left if Willingham is there, but would go 2nd to home were Revere in left. So yeah, right field is the worst place for Revere's arm, but it's not a zero sum game. Revere's arm in left, with Willingham in right, will still result in some runners advancing on Revere's arm that would not have advanced were Willingham in left. The net loss of Revere playing RF isn't as big as people make it out to be. There are also generally slightly more balls hit to right than left, so Revere's range is worth slightly more in right than left.

glunn
06-05-2012, 03:08 AM
I don't understand why this is hard to comprehend. With Revere in right, and Willingham (or Plouffe) in left, more runners will go 1st to 3rd on a single. But...some runners will not go 1st to 3rd on a single to left, respecting Willingham's arm. Fewer, but not zero. Likewise, a runner here and there will not tag up and score on a fly ball to Willingham, but would tag and score were Revere in left. A couple times a year, a runner on 2nd will stop at third on a sharp single to left if Willingham is there, but would go 2nd to home were Revere in left. So yeah, right field is the worst place for Revere's arm, but it's not a zero sum game. Revere's arm in left, with Willingham in right, will still result in some runners advancing on Revere's arm that would not have advanced were Willingham in left. The net loss of Revere playing RF isn't as big as people make it out to be. There are also generally slightly more balls hit to right than left, so Revere's range is worth slightly more in right than left.

Great explanation, Chief.

Montecore
06-05-2012, 03:21 AM
I had a great arm. I played RF on a sandlot team with Amos Otis in CF and Garrt Alexander in LF. If it was just my arm alone - I'd have been a first ballot Hall Of Famer. I don't understand how a guy can make the bigs without a cannon or close to it.

John Bonnes
06-05-2012, 07:50 AM
Wherever he plays, he is truly a joy to watch. Put your stats down and watch him tumble: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=21975557&topic_id=&c_id=min&tcid=vpp_copy_21975557&v=3

It would really have been a joy seeing him get to that double in the fourth inning that Plouffe couldn't get to.

Mauerzy4Prez
06-05-2012, 08:07 AM
Way too much is made of Ben's arm strength (or lack thereof) and even though I agree it is his greatest weakness I don't think it counts him out as a big league outfielder. The Twins mentality is fundamental baseball, and all Ben needs to do is use his vast range to make up for the weak arm, and be as accurate as he can when hitting the cut off.

People!! There is a reason teams take infield/outfield practice everyday, there is a reason the cutoff man exists... This guy is a premier player, a great asset to our team, and just flat out fun to watch. I think the signing of Buxton last night may show us all that the Twins do think highly of Revere, because the may be setting themselves up for an outfield like this in a few years: Revere (LF) Buxton (CF) Hicks (RF).

Mr. Ed
06-05-2012, 08:10 AM
Way too much is made of Ben's arm strength (or lack thereof) and even though I agree it is his greatest weakness I don't think it counts him out as a big league outfielder. The Twins mentality is fundamental baseball, and all Ben needs to do is use his vast range to make up for the weak arm, and be as accurate as he can when hitting the cut off.

People!! There is a reason teams take infield/outfield practice everyday, there is a reason the cutoff man exists... This guy is a premier player, a great asset to our team, and just flat out fun to watch. I think the signing of Buxton last night may show us all that the Twins do think highly of Revere, because the may be setting themselves up for an outfield like this in a few years: Revere (LF) Buxton (CF) Hicks (RF).

Premiere player? No. A guy who can get on base and set things up? yes.

Concerns. Seeing guys go first/third on any single hit his way, regardless of how deep it is when he's in RF
Seeing the outfield play so shallow that singles with RISP at 2nd are a huge risk on sending guys.
Accuracy, or lack of. The throws to the plate from LF have not been very close.

TCBurgerGuy
06-05-2012, 08:13 AM
Yes, I can. It was mentioned during the broadcast last night that Gardy wanted to keep Willingham off of his feet for the night, but still wanted his bat in the lineup. Hence, a start at DH.

Mauerzy4Prez
06-05-2012, 08:19 AM
Premiere player? No. A guy who can get on base and set things up? yes.

Concerns. Seeing guys go first/third on any single hit his way, regardless of how deep it is when he's in RF
Seeing the outfield play so shallow that singles with RISP at 2nd are a huge risk on sending guys.
Accuracy, or lack of. The throws to the plate from LF have not been very close.

I am not a "Stat guy" but I would be curious to see just what the scoring rate is when a man is on 2nd base for Ben compared to any other major league outfielder... singles with a man on 2nd usually end up in a run, as long as the base runner isn't Jim Thome out there. To your point however, going 1st to 3rd on a single is a concern and something that Ben will need to work on. The nice thing about arm strength is that you can build it, and from what I can see in Revere, he is a hard worker and a pretty athletic individual. I am confident this is something he will work to improve upon (maybe even more so than his bunting) and even though it may always bee his greatest weakness, it won't be such a great point of debate like it is today.

Mr. Ed
06-05-2012, 08:53 AM
If they're going to play him, keep him in a corner OF spot. I just don't think in CF the arm is going to help them. Not that Span has a cannon either. Just bugs me to see teams run, run, run on them, and the Twins too often are plodding base-to-base.

That said, seeing more aggression on the bases, such as Monday night, is a welcome sight. Overdue.

Revere has to get more line drives, less chops on the ground. Some gaps. He could, IF he can figure it out, lead the league in 3-baggers.

spideyo
06-05-2012, 09:48 AM
Way too much is made of Ben's arm strength (or lack thereof) and even though I agree it is his greatest weakness I don't think it counts him out as a big league outfielder. The Twins mentality is fundamental baseball, and all Ben needs to do is use his vast range to make up for the weak arm, and be as accurate as he can when hitting the cut off.

People!! There is a reason teams take infield/outfield practice everyday, there is a reason the cutoff man exists... This guy is a premier player, a great asset to our team, and just flat out fun to watch. I think the signing of Buxton last night may show us all that the Twins do think highly of Revere, because the may be setting themselves up for an outfield like this in a few years: Revere (LF) Buxton (CF) Hicks (RF).

It's a long ways away, but from what I've read on Buxton and what I've seen from Revere, I expect Revere will more likely be our CF if/when Buxton gets to The Show

Boom Boom
06-05-2012, 09:55 AM
I don't remember hearing that Revere didn't play LF well. He can't be worse over there than RF.

Pretty sure the real reason that Willingham moved to LF was because the Twins wanted Morneau to DH, which meant Doumit had to play a position other than C, and he was most comfortable in RF. Of course, Doumit hasn't played in the outfield in a long time (and for good reason). But if Willingham is the DH there's no reason to keep Revere in RF.

Mauerzy4Prez
06-05-2012, 09:57 AM
It's a long ways away, but from what I've read on Buxton and what I've seen from Revere, I expect Revere will more likely be our CF if/when Buxton gets to The Show

I actually agree with your take... looking back at my original lineup I think Ben's speed is best used in CF, then you take care of the runners advancing 1st to 3rd on singles issue because his throw is the most direct to 2nd from CF.

Mauerzy4Prez
06-05-2012, 10:01 AM
I don't remember hearing that Revere didn't play LF well. He can't be worse over there than RF.

Pretty sure the real reason that Willingham moved to LF was because the Twins wanted Morneau to DH, which meant Doumit had to play a position other than C, and he was most comfortable in RF. Of course, Doumit hasn't played in the outfield in a long time (and for good reason). But if Willingham is the DH there's no reason to keep Revere in RF.

The real reason Willingham is in left is A. He is most comfortable defensively there, B. His defensive liability is less of a risk in left over right and center. Willingham DH'd last night because we needed to get Jamey back in the lineup at 3rd, Ploufey still needs to play everyday with his bat starting to pick up, and Mauerzy sat because of his thumb so you insert Doumit at C instead of RF.

USAFChief
06-05-2012, 10:08 AM
It would really have been a joy seeing him get to that double in the fourth inning that Plouffe couldn't get to.

But it would have sucked for him not to be in RF and thus not get to that drive off Capps in the 9th inning of a game over the past weekend in Cleveland.

Range works in both LF and RF.

Shane Wahl
06-05-2012, 10:14 AM
I don't understand why this is hard to comprehend. With Revere in right, and Willingham (or Plouffe) in left, more runners will go 1st to 3rd on a single. But...some runners will not go 1st to 3rd on a single to left, respecting Willingham's arm. Fewer, but not zero. Likewise, a runner here and there will not tag up and score on a fly ball to Willingham, but would tag and score were Revere in left. A couple times a year, a runner on 2nd will stop at third on a sharp single to left if Willingham is there, but would go 2nd to home were Revere in left. So yeah, right field is the worst place for Revere's arm, but it's not a zero sum game. Revere's arm in left, with Willingham in right, will still result in some runners advancing on Revere's arm that would not have advanced were Willingham in left. The net loss of Revere playing RF isn't as big as people make it out to be. There are also generally slightly more balls hit to right than left, so Revere's range is worth slightly more in right than left.

As long as you admit that there is a net loss, that's fine. It's another little thing, like not batting Mauer second (for instance) that just seems bizarre. And little things add up. That's all.

J-Dog Dungan
06-05-2012, 10:20 AM
I think the signing of Buxton last night may show us all that the Twins do think highly of Revere, because the may be setting themselves up for an outfield like this in a few years: Revere (LF) Buxton (CF) Hicks (RF).

That is what I was telling my friends earlier today, that the Twins probably picked him with the intention of keeping Revere and dealing Span when people are desperate for a solid center fielder and willing to give up a solid pitching prospect or two. This would allow the Twins to shift Revere to center, keep Willingham in left, and probably give Plouffe more playing time in right.

Shane Wahl
06-05-2012, 10:31 AM
The real reason Willingham is in left is A. He is most comfortable defensively there, B. His defensive liability is less of a risk in left over right and center. Willingham DH'd last night because we needed to get Jamey back in the lineup at 3rd, Ploufey still needs to play everyday with his bat starting to pick up, and Mauerzy sat because of his thumb so you insert Doumit at C instead of RF.

I understand, but LF is bigger than RF at Target Field. It would be one thing if Gardy matched defense with ballparks, wouldn't it!!! I understand DHing Willingham and think it should happen more often. But to want the Twins to maximize their OF defense when that happens isn't out of the question, right? I mean no one believes that Revere in RF instead of LF makes or breaks the Twins season, but still matters, in part because it shows the incompetency of the manager.

Shane Wahl
06-05-2012, 10:32 AM
That is what I was telling my friends earlier today, that the Twins probably picked him with the intention of keeping Revere and dealing Span when people are desperate for a solid center fielder and willing to give up a solid pitching prospect or two. This would allow the Twins to shift Revere to center, keep Willingham in left, and probably give Plouffe more playing time in right.

And who bats leadoff?

USAFChief
06-05-2012, 06:29 PM
That is what I was telling my friends earlier today, that the Twins probably picked him with the intention of keeping Revere and dealing Span when people are desperate for a solid center fielder and willing to give up a solid pitching prospect or two. This would allow the Twins to shift Revere to center, keep Willingham in left, and probably give Plouffe more playing time in right.

Denard Span may be dealt, now or in the future, but that and the Twins 2012 OF has nothing...NOTHING...to do with Buxton.

Sheesh.

twinsnorth49
06-05-2012, 07:00 PM
Revere has to get more line drives, less chops on the ground. Some gaps. He could, IF he can figure it out, lead the league in 3-baggers.

Remarkably he does have 6 extra base hits in 82 AB's. He also has 6 SB's in that short time.

CharacterGroove
06-05-2012, 07:58 PM
And who bats leadoff?

Ben Revere

ashburyjohn
06-05-2012, 09:58 PM
I had a great arm. I played RF on a sandlot team with Amos Otis in CF and Garrt Alexander in LF. If it was just my arm alone - I'd have been a first ballot Hall Of Famer. I don't understand how a guy can make the bigs without a cannon or close to it.

God doesn't hand out the talent equally. There's not much correlation to throwing hard and with accuracy to hitting a major league breaking pitch; if there were, we wouldn't have a DH.

glunn
06-05-2012, 10:38 PM
I continue to believe that Revere belongs in center field, because of his amazing range, and because he is more fun to watch in center than Span. This is a crappy season anyway, so why not at least let the fans enjoy more Revere webgems.

Revere is so fast that he could shade towards left field to provide some support for Willingham, and Span could play right field and shade a bit towards center. It seems to me that such configuration would make for a superior defense that would be fun to watch.

snepp
06-05-2012, 10:39 PM
I continue to believe that Revere belongs in center field, because of his amazing range, and because he is more fun to watch in center than Span. This is a crappy season anyway, so why not at least let the fans enjoy more Revere webgems.

Revere is so fast that he could shade towards left field to provide some support for Willingham, and Span could play right field and shade a bit towards center. It seems to me that such configuration would make for a superior defense that would be fun to watch.


That might hurt someone's feelings, and we can't have that.

glunn
06-05-2012, 10:53 PM
That might hurt someone's feelings, and we can't have that.

Revere does not seem to be very thin skinned, but I could be wrong. I just don't understand why the faster guy is not playing in center field, and I have seen plays that Span failed to make that I believe that Revere would probably have made.

Rosterman
06-05-2012, 10:56 PM
Benson? Morales? The return of Kamutsu?!

glunn
06-06-2012, 07:19 PM
Revere is playing in center today -- I am hoping for some webgems.