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Riverbrian
06-02-2012, 10:12 PM
Honest answers only.

1. In consideration of the state of the Twins at the time. Would you have made the trade for Delmon Young? Try to be honest with removal of hindsight.

2. Once acquired, how would you have handled him. Would he still be a Twin or gone at the first sign if trouble?

3. Do you understand Bill Smiths thinking at the time or is Bill Smith now in the Ron Davis doghouse?

Chance
06-02-2012, 10:31 PM
I don't think I would have made the trade. Bartlett seemed to be a possible staple at short for years and garza was looking like he would be a number 2 in a few years. I know the twins didnt like his attitude. I don't see much sense in trade away 2 positions to fill one.

Rosterman
06-02-2012, 10:32 PM
In some ways, it was a great trade...first round draft pick for first round draft pick. he Twins basically got nothing for Bartlett, though. I remember fans in an uproar when Eddie Morlan was included in the deal, wanting the Twins to instead ship off Juan Rincon or no one.

Young was signed to one of those early major league contracts, so the Twins had a great idea what they were getting He was in self-made competition with Carl Crawford for glory in Tampa Bay. He was brought in essentially to replace Torii Hunter offensively.

But at that point, the Twins were glad to be rid of the ego headcase of Matt Garza. But unwilling they got an equally egotistically, arrogant, do-it-my-way Delmon Young. Young was expected to produce....280-.300 average, 20 homers, maybe 80 rbi average.

My first thought was: They Gave Delmon the Subway Commercial. But, somehow, he started to get overshadowed by the lesser talented sparkplug Carlos Gomez as the newest Twin and the Face of the outfield that year. Gomez thrilled and spilled and somehow Delmon, already having tom play #2 or #3 to the M&M boys, fumed.

Here is a guy with lots of natural raw talent. He knows it. But he doesn't.

Tampa got rid of both Garza and Bartlett. Morlan could've been re- had by the Twins numerous times when he apssed thru waivers. The Twins got some energy out of Brendan Harris, but ended up eating lots of salary. Jason Pridie played more than he should've as the second coming of Jason Tyner.

Delmon could be a superstar. I doubt that he will, though. He doesn't seem to want to listen. Strikes out too much, Seems lost in the outfield, not really in the game unless it is about him. He managed to get another big contract year out of the Tigers. He has made more money than many others his age.

I would do it again...except -- no -- I would've tried to work thru Garza and be happy having Bartlett somewhere in the infield for another season.

But he sure didn't fit into the TwinsWay picture.

And don't get me started on Carlos Gomez. The guy was fun, exciting, totally undisciplined -- like a kid in a candy store with a $20 bill and told to make it last...forever.

Rosterman
06-02-2012, 10:33 PM
I don't think I would have made the trade. Bartlett seemed to be a possible staple at short for years and garza was looking like he would be a number 2 in a few years. I know the twins didnt like his attitude. I don't see much sense in trade away 2 positions to fill one.

I actually think they thought Harris would replace Bartlett somewhere. He kinda did for a moment. Add more punch, perhaps. But we know now not!

ashburyjohn
06-02-2012, 10:41 PM
Honest answers only.
1. In consideration of the state of the Twins at the time. Would you have made the trade for Delmon Young? Try to be honest with removal of hindsight.
2. Once acquired, how would you have handled him. Would he still be a Twin or gone at the first sign if trouble?
3. Do you understand Bill Smiths thinking at the time or is Bill Smith now in the Ron Davis doghouse?

1. My problem with the trade at the time was they gave up the wrong pitcher, and were selling low on a shortstop the manager had criticized in the papers. They were trying to deal from their strength, starting pitching, but Garza had too much upside to let go. I can't find my Usenet post on the subject but I know I agreed with other posters who would have preferred trading, say, Slowey or Perkins (both starters at the time of course). I was bothered that Tampa was willing to give up a good-hit bad-field guy who they seemed to have decided wasn't going to fit in their long-term plans. I thought they had taken a cold hard look at their own players and were palming off a high-ceiling guy with bad flaws. I was worried that Tampa was already known for astute talent evaluation, and doing it again on both ends of this deal.

2. Once acquired, you have to try to get the most out of Young, and I don't know what management/coaching could have done differently. I would not have bailed out much sooner than they did, but the prior off-season was the last chance to gain anything of substance for him.

3. I can't let Smith off the hook. Since I don't know what scouting input he had on all the players involved, I can't pretend to know his thinking at the time, but strategically the trade seemed wrong-headed to me in multiple ways, even if well intentioned.

Let it also be noted that trading away Bartlett (and his replacement Adam Everett fizzling out) ushered in the Nick Punto Era of Overuse, at shortstop. Bad trade, for that reason alone. ;)

stringer bell
06-02-2012, 11:15 PM
I thought it was a good risk at the time. It seemed to me that Garza wouldn't fulfill his promise in Minnesota and that Bartlett was replaceable. I thought Young could develop into an elite hitter. After one year, I had seen enough of Delmon to believe he would never develop any further. I was hoping that the Twins would trade Young when he value went up, but no such luck.

Bark's Lounge
06-02-2012, 11:21 PM
Honest answers only.

1. In consideration of the state of the Twins at the time. Would you have made the trade for Delmon Young? Try to be honest with removal of hindsight.

2. Once acquired, how would you have handled him. Would he still be a Twin or gone at the first sign if trouble?

3. Do you understand Bill Smiths thinking at the time or is Bill Smith now in the Ron Davis doghouse?

I'll make this short:

1. No - The Twins were looking down the barrel of a Johan Santana trade, Liriano coming off TJ surgery. Garza was the best arm we had at the time looking towards 2008.

2. DY is a pain in the ass and a **** fielder. We finally were able to get his engines running offensively in 2010 - should have dumped him for the best we could get and keep Hardy.

3. At the time, if I remember correctly, Twins players and fans were wanting a "difference maker" type of hitter to put them over the edge of merely being able to contend. Bill Smith, wanting to make a splash as the new GM took a risk and made the trade. At the time I was wondering why the Twins didn't get BJ Upton instead of Young for the amount they gave up. Obviously it wouldn't have worked either way. Smith is a Financial numbers guy, should never have been in a GM position, but what the hell, throw him in the doghouse with R.D.

Thrylos
06-02-2012, 11:26 PM
Honest answers only.

1. In consideration of the state of the Twins at the time. Would you have made the trade for Delmon Young? Try to be honest with removal of hindsight.

2. Once acquired, how would you have handled him. Would he still be a Twin or gone at the first sign if trouble?

3. Do you understand Bill Smiths thinking at the time or is Bill Smith now in the Ron Davis doghouse?

Honestly...

The one who messed this whole thing up was Gardenhire:

He did not Garza in his team because Garza would not listen to Andy about throwing 2 seamers and pitching to contact. That has been documented and is out there. Then Young comes and Gardy plays him in a position he never played before (LF) instead of the position he has been an above average fielder in Tampa (check out his UZR), RF. Then the Twins started to throw Young under the bus when he did not like to listen to Vavra and wanted to pull the ball. And the kid carried the Twins in his back in 2010. And nobody gives him any credit for that.

Gardy initiated that mess of a trade and he has been in my doghouse for a while...

Bark's Lounge
06-02-2012, 11:35 PM
Honestly...

The one who messed this whole thing up was Gardenhire:

He did not Garza in his team because Garza would not listen to Andy about throwing 2 seamers and pitching to contact. That has been documented and is out there. Then Young comes and Gardy plays him in a position he never played before (LF) instead of the position he has been an above average fielder in Tampa (check out his UZR), RF. Then the Twins started to throw Young under the bus when he did not like to listen to Vavra and wanted to pull the ball. And the kid carried the Twins in his back in 2010. And nobody gives him any credit for that.

Gardy initiated that mess of a trade and he has been in my doghouse for a while...

I am curious. When was the first time you hated Gardenhire and knew you could never turn back. This is actually a serious question and not a bait.

nokomismod
06-03-2012, 12:12 AM
In hindsight we know it was a bad trade. Garza has become a solid and sometime dominant starter. I really think it was a combo of Gardenhire trying to eliminate personalities that he and his staff did not like and the Twins trying to replace Hunter's offense. I remember thinking that we Delmon was going to be produce like Hunter for the next 10 years and being really excited about it.

gunnarthor
06-03-2012, 12:31 AM
I liked it for a couple reasons. First, it was the first time the Twins were willing to trade from an area of strength (pitching) to get a bat that we desperately needed. Even without Garza, the team still had a lot of young arms - Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins, Baker, Boof and Liriano at the ML level, Mulvey, Humber, Duensing at AAA. Second, I was glad the team was moving away from the piranha thing and not giving up on offense at some positions. And, while Harris didn't really work out, our best team in 2010 really was an offensive team without the piranha crap.

I don't know what the Twins could've done differently. As I recall, Young (because of the contract he signed when drafted) was out of options when we got him so we couldn't move him to AAA. Benching him didn't work all that well. He just never got strike-zone awareness.

I've never been a big Smith basher. I think all of his moves are, to an extent, defendable but, as a whole, something was wrong. He made some good moves, esp before and during the 2010 season and some of his trades received more criticism than they deserved. Diamond for Bullock especially. I like that he got us more involved in Latin America and I like that he put Deron Johnson in charge of the drafts. But, while our drafts are usually well received when they happened, Johnson's drafts haven't really been productive, at least not yet.

glunn
06-03-2012, 12:32 AM
I am curious. When was the first time you hated Gardenhire and knew you could never turn back. This is actually a serious question and not a bait.

With all due respect, thrylos did not say he hated Gardenhire. He said that Gardenhire was in his doghouse.

I don't always agree with thrylos's opinions, but they often provide food for thought. And to say that Gardenhire is in his doghouse seems like a relatively respectful way to express his disagreement with Gardenhire's (alleged) actions.

Bark's Lounge
06-03-2012, 01:00 AM
With all due respect, thrylos did not say he hated Gardenhire. He said that Gardenhire was in his doghouse.

I don't always agree with thrylos's opinions, but they often provide food for thought. And to say that Gardenhire is in his doghouse seems like a relatively respectful way to express his disagreement with Gardenhire's (alleged) actions.

Sorry. Maybe I should have worded it differently. It is no secret on this site that Thrylos wants Gardenhire dismissed and I was sincerely being curious. I just want to know what event made Thrylos think or know Gardy wasn't the man for the job. No disrespect to Thrylos. I actually want to know. Maybe I can subscribe to his point of view?

cr9617
06-03-2012, 01:00 AM
I never liked the trade for Delmon. They gave up way too much, plain and simple. Garza was the Twins #1 prospect at the time, and teams had been asking about him for years. The Twins needed hitting at the time, but they just gave up way too much.

glunn
06-03-2012, 01:13 AM
Sorry. Maybe I should have worded it differently. It is no secret on this site that Thrylos wants Gardenhire dismissed and I was sincerely being curious. I just want to know what event made Thrylos think or know Gardy wasn't the man for the job. No disrespect to Thrylos. I actually want to know. Maybe I can subscribe to his point of view?

I love the way that you are now asking the question, and am hoping that the thrymaster will respond in the same spirit.

My reservations about Gardenhire and the coaching staff are based partly on comments by Hardy and Ortiz about why they hit for more power after they went to other teams. It seems to me that the coaching staff did not get the best from such players. It also seems to me that a different approach might have been taken with Garza. I am also troubled by how poorly the Twins have performed against the Yankees and in playoff games.

On the other hand, a manager needs good players to have a winning team, and the general manager(s) should share in the responsibility for team mediocrity.

I do not hate Gardenhire, but I wonder whether a new manager might be a better fit.

Bark's Lounge
06-03-2012, 01:48 AM
Thanks Glunn. I agree with your 4 points of interest: Hardy, Ortiz, Garza and Playoff futility against the Yankees. Trading Hardy can be equated to divorcing your wife to hang out with a couple of meth head tweekers and Releasing Ortiz can be equated to giving your uber rich neighbor your Rolls Royce because you are too lazy to learn how to drive a stick shick. Garza... puke, Yankees.. puke. Glunn, please do me a favor and send my apologize to Thrylos for calling him a murderer of hope - it was only meant in jest.:)

glunn
06-03-2012, 01:53 AM
Trading Hardy can be equated to divorcing your wife to hang out with a couple of meth head tweekers and Releasing Ortiz can be equated to giving your uber rich neighbor your Rolls Royce because you are too lazy to learn how to drive a stick shick.

I love those metaphors! Well put.

Montecore
06-03-2012, 02:35 AM
I am curious. When was the first time you hated Gardenhire and knew you could never turn back. This is actually a serious question and not a bait.Forgive the presumption, but I can tell you when (I ) developed a crystallized ice of contempt for Gardenhire. Sometime maybe a decade back, probably less - Steinbrenner paid a condescending compliment to Gardenhire, and Gardenhire the ****ing bumpkin took it to heart and was said to keep an autographed picture of Steinbrenner on his wall. As if, someday, after a little glory with the low-level Twins - Steinbrenner would summon the louche fool to MANAGE THE NEW TORK YANKEES. Wow! Ron Gardenhire, toadstool could spin around like a top and say: "See, see, look at me!" That's when I KNEW that he was a loser, bereft of Twins Pride. Can you imagine TK ever getting a nod on the head from that buffoon Steinbrenner and doing somersaults because of it? He (Gardenhire) never saw his opportunity to carry on a la TK and WIN WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS. Look how many great players were Twins first and foremost: Killebrew, Oliva, Allison, Kaat, Carew, Blyleven, Puckett, Hrbek, Viola, Hunter, Santana, Liriano, Mauer, Morneau...**** the Yankees and their nearly 40 years of commodification! I wanted him gone THEN, 12 playoff losses in a row mostly to the Yankees, winning weak divisions and nothing else and now the debacle of the past two years - throwing away Papa, Garza, Hardy because they didn't do it that dismal joke of a manager's way is enough. He has no class, no savvy, no capacity to bring this franchise back. Andy seems to me to be too beholden to ****face, and the training staff's a joke. They've got to clean house and now.

BHtwins
06-03-2012, 07:31 AM
It was a horrid deal at the time. An awful lot of people thought Delmon was a head case and damaged goods before the Twins traded for him. Garzas MiLB and beginning big league numbers pointed to a solid 2-3 starter and Bartlett was a potential long-term solution at shortstop. All these was compounded when we gave Young away for a bag of balls a few years later.
This deal plus the Johan disaster, plus Ramos for Capps, plus giving up Hardy for nothing are the reasons this franchise is the worst in baseball right now. All horrible moves at the time and made even worse in hindsight.

Shane Wahl
06-03-2012, 08:05 AM
Honestly...

The one who messed this whole thing up was Gardenhire:

He did not Garza in his team because Garza would not listen to Andy about throwing 2 seamers and pitching to contact. That has been documented and is out there. Then Young comes and Gardy plays him in a position he never played before (LF) instead of the position he has been an above average fielder in Tampa (check out his UZR), RF. Then the Twins started to throw Young under the bus when he did not like to listen to Vavra and wanted to pull the ball. And the kid carried the Twins in his back in 2010. And nobody gives him any credit for that.

Gardy initiated that mess of a trade and he has been in my doghouse for a while...

Ditto, and you aren't even mentioning the criticism of Bartlett.

I didn't mind the trade at the time, except for the Brendan Harris part of it. Or if he had to be involved, it would have been nice to get some low-level prospect as well. Young should have played RF.

But at the same time, maybe the Twins should not have traded for someone over-rushed through the minors.

Thrylos
06-03-2012, 10:48 AM
Sorry. Maybe I should have worded it differently. It is no secret on this site that Thrylos wants Gardenhire dismissed and I was sincerely being curious. I just want to know what event made Thrylos think or know Gardy wasn't the man for the job. No disrespect to Thrylos. I actually want to know. Maybe I can subscribe to his point of view?

It has been slowley (pun intended) building... I think the first years of Gardenire were good. Then favoritism and cronyism and doghousing players started (or became more obvious), trying to make every one a cookie cutter player started (or became more obvious) , accentuated with one series in the post-season and out. Got even worse with throwing young players under the bus and not accepting personal responsibility as a leader, add trading players who did not subscribe to their points of view. Add the press loving them and giving them teflon and being open to only certain mouthpiece players, and you have a very disfunctional organization that is mediocre on the field and the press does not check them...

Now that they have been performing below mediocre, the ones who were happy when they were mediocre (i.e. three and out occasionally) are starting to complain and look at it as well. Plus you have that staleness in the organization. All those people have been around 20 some years. No new opinions, no out of the box way of thinking. The box has been shirinking and stifling the Twins... And they just don't see it.

So I do not hate the guy. Gee I don't know him. I just don't like what he has done with my Twins :) And also I dislike his people management skills and I think that they are adverse to producing good results. Game management sucks as well. So, guess I like his commercials.

Does this answer your question?

Bark's Lounge
06-03-2012, 12:35 PM
It has been slowley (pun intended) building... I think the first years of Gardenire were good. Then favoritism and cronyism and doghousing players started (or became more obvious), trying to make every one a cookie cutter player started (or became more obvious) , accentuated with one series in the post-season and out. Got even worse with throwing young players under the bus and not accepting personal responsibility as a leader, add trading players who did not subscribe to their points of view. Add the press loving them and giving them teflon and being open to only certain mouthpiece players, and you have a very disfunctional organization that is mediocre on the field and the press does not check them...

Now that they have been performing below mediocre, the ones who were happy when they were mediocre (i.e. three and out occasionally) are starting to complain and look at it as well. Plus you have that staleness in the organization. All those people have been around 20 some years. No new opinions, no out of the box way of thinking. The box has been shirinking and stifling the Twins... And they just don't see it.

So I do not hate the guy. Gee I don't know him. I just don't like what he has done with my Twins :) And also I dislike his people management skills and I think that they are adverse to producing good results. Game management sucks as well. So, guess I like his commercials.

Does this answer your question?

Thanks Thrylos. It does answer my question.:) How would you fix this mess that the Twins have become?

darin617
06-03-2012, 12:51 PM
The deal was made because Gardy didn't like and didn't know how to handle/control Garza. Nothing like it's my my or the highway if you don't bow down and kiss Gardy's butt. Oh I forgot this was all Bill Smith's fault, nothing to do with Gardy playing favorites once again.

Boom Boom
06-03-2012, 01:09 PM
The Twins had other starters coming up at the time whom I would have rather traded than Garza. And as much as Gardy and Andy didn't like Garza, Delmon Young was in many ways a worse clubhouse presence and that was well known at the time.

I forget which Twins FO official said it, but I know I heard that Tampa wouldn't do Garza for Young straight up and insisted the Twins include Bartlett to make the deal.

If that's the case, it should have been a big red flag for Bill Smith. The Rays knew what Brendan Harris was, and obviously thought Bartlett was a much better shortstop.

mike wants wins
06-03-2012, 01:16 PM
I agree, that deal was done because of Gardy, and I hated the trade at the time. And then they put Young in LF, bizarro decision. Young had dominated low ball with athletic talent, but did not show anything beyond that at all. So, 1. I would not have made the trade, no way. 2. I would have put him in RF, where he was in TB.

Fire Dan Gladden
06-03-2012, 01:28 PM
That trade was a disaster waiting to happen. You never trade pitching for hitting, it never turns out. Garza, for all the headaches, was a decent young pitcher who was improving. Delmon was a headcase in the minors and a headcase in the majors. He showed flashes of offensive ability, but was never able to be consistant with it. Bartlett was a slightly better than league average shortstop, a position the Twins have had problems with going back to Gagne. It was an overpayment then that looks 5 times worse now.

Delmon will never be more than a low level outfielder due to his stupidity. There was nothing more the Twins could do with him. I do agree they should have cut bait with him a year earlier.

Shane Wahl
06-03-2012, 01:56 PM
Guys, if Kevin Slowey, Boof Bonser, Nick Blackburn, and Glen Perkins would have turned into good starters, and Baker and Liriano wouldn't have had their problems, you might be singing a different tune regardless of Young's performance. At the time it was an attempt to trade from a strength to improve upon a weakness. Everything just went the wrong way after

glunn
06-03-2012, 02:23 PM
This thread is a great example of why many of us come here on a daily basis. These issues have been bouncing around in my brain for years, and these posts are providing answers that I have yearned for.

Thrylos
06-03-2012, 03:04 PM
Guys, if Kevin Slowey, Boof Bonser, Nick Blackburn, and Glen Perkins would have turned into good starters, and Baker and Liriano wouldn't have had their problems, you might be singing a different tune regardless of Young's performance. At the time it was an attempt to trade from a strength to improve upon a weakness. Everything just went the wrong way after

The thing is that there were no, absolutely no evidence that Nick Blackburn and Glen Perkins could turn into more than 4/5 starters. The other 4 could, but they all had injury issues. Also I am not sure that part of the reason the other 4 "did not turn into good starters" is the Gardy/Andy factor. I know it is somewhat of a circular argument and ex post facto , but you got to consider it. Matter of fact there is good evidence that Slowey's, Baker's, and Bonzer's issues were misstreated by the Twins and there is good evidence that Anderson and Gardenhire tried to mess up with at least Slowey and Liriano. Perkins had a grievance against the team as well. Way too much smoke for not to be a fire...

one_eyed_jack
06-03-2012, 04:10 PM
Honest answers only.

1. In consideration of the state of the Twins at the time. Would you have made the trade for Delmon Young? Try to be honest with removal of hindsight.

2. Once acquired, how would you have handled him. Would he still be a Twin or gone at the first sign if trouble?

3. Do you understand Bill Smiths thinking at the time or is Bill Smith now in the Ron Davis doghouse?


To answer the questions posed:

1) No. I was uneasy about the deal at the time. I liked the fact that they swung for the fences on a trade for once, but Delmon struck me as a guy who would never reach his potential. And I liked Bartlett.

2) Tough one. I remember Souhan writing a column in mid-2010 saying his value was at its peak and we should trade him. I wasn't sure I agreed, but I definitely saw his point. Delmon was very good in stretches and very bad in stretches. The bad stretches made me want to get rid of him, but the good stretches made me wary of doing do.

3) Totally understand the thinking. The 2007 Twins were 25th in the league in runs scored, and 6th in runs against. Trading pitching for offense made sense. In fact a lot of the fan base was calling for it. I just wish it had been a different deal. I'm not as down on this deal as others are. Bartlett had a good year in 2008 and a great year in 2009, but hasn't really done much of anything since. And Garza is a nice starter, but his career 54-58 tells you than he's not the perennial Cy Young candidate that Twins fans often make him out to be.

As for the Gardy-bashing, I always get a chuckle out of how freely the rabid anti-Gardy wing of the fan base cites things like his treatment of players, his clubhouse demeanor and his orchestration of trades as evidence of what a terrible manager he is. I had no idea we had so many Twins insiders in our presence.

mike wants wins
06-03-2012, 04:50 PM
We can only go by what we read, and hear on the radio. And, it was widely reported that Anderson and Gardenhire had issues with Garza, and Bartlett, and Valenica, and Slowey. None of whom are with the Twins in the majors right now. Is that really a coincidence?

BHtwins
06-03-2012, 04:58 PM
Bottom line is a strong GM does not make organizational changes at the behest of the game manager. There is strong circumstanial evidence that Terry Ryan quite often does the opposite of what Gardy wants and has going way back. If Bill Smith did make changes that dramatic at the game managers request....then its a Bill Smith problem not a Gardy problem. I say that as someone who cant stand Gardy

The four other pitchers (Bonser, Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins) had nowhere near the hype and the potential ace status of Garza. They all had problems

one_eyed_jack
06-03-2012, 05:12 PM
We can only go by what we read, and hear on the radio. And, it was widely reported that Anderson and Gardenhire had issues with Garza, and Bartlett, and Valenica, and Slowey. None of whom are with the Twins in the majors right now. Is that really a coincidence?

You shouldn't take everything you read and hear on the radio as the word of God. Information travels fast these days, and so does misinformation. Unless you're actually there or getting it from a reliable source who was actually there, you've got little more than speculation and rumor.

one_eyed_jack
06-03-2012, 05:14 PM
Bottom line is a strong GM does not make organizational changes at the behest of the game manager. There is strong circumstanial evidence that Terry Ryan quite often does the opposite of what Gardy wants and has going way back. If Bill Smith did make changes that dramatic at the game managers request....then its a Bill Smith problem not a Gardy problem. I say that as someone who cant stand Gardy

The four other pitchers (Bonser, Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins) had nowhere near the hype and the potential ace status of Garza. They all had problems

Thank you for adding some sanity to the discussion.

ashburyjohn
06-03-2012, 07:48 PM
If that's the case, it should have been a big red flag for Bill Smith. The Rays knew what Brendan Harris was, and obviously thought Bartlett was a much better shortstop.

You can't take that philosophy to an extreme, because anytime a deal is on the table it's because the other guy thinks it's a win for him. But, when your opposite number has gained a reputation for astute player evaluation, as the Rays had done, you do really have to think twice, as you say.

Bartlett was and is no Hall of Famer, but he was approaching averageness at the major league level (he even managed an All Star season). And average players, particularly at the skill positions, don't really grow on trees, and can't be just a throw-in to get a deal done.

ashburyjohn
06-03-2012, 07:51 PM
You never trade pitching for hitting, it never turns out.

Yeah, the Orioles are still kicking themselves to this day for dealing Milt Pappas. :)

Riverbrian
06-03-2012, 09:16 PM
Honestly, I was excited about the trade at first. #1 pick overall... In the majors and performing at a very young age.

It didn't take long for that excitement to turn to horror. To this day... Delmon is the only Twin that I've hated. Maybe a month of watching and it was obvious that he didn't give a crap. I told everyone that I prayed for a big year so he would get some trade value for trade. I was sure that he had to be in the Gardy doghouse.

He had that year and Nothing!!! A Twin he remained until his Value dropped to a relief pitcher who might make it and then the trigger was pulled.

I understand why the trade was made but I don't understand why they didn't move him at the first sign of increased value after he unveiled his attitude and what he was in a Twins uniform. Bill Smith was in charge.

clutterheart
06-03-2012, 09:23 PM
No. I did not hate the trade as I was hopeful Young would be a star.
But I would not make it as you don't trade a starter like Garza. Also I think I heard LaVelle say on the radio the other day "It would have been interesting if the Twins would have called other teams and offered Garza AND Barlett to see what else could have been returned"

He made it sound like Smith did not do his dilligence on what else those guys could have brought and instead got so focused on Delmon.

Fire Dan Gladden
06-03-2012, 11:23 PM
Guys, if Kevin Slowey, Boof Bonser, Nick Blackburn, and Glen Perkins would have turned into good starters, and Baker and Liriano wouldn't have had their problems, you might be singing a different tune regardless of Young's performance. At the time it was an attempt to trade from a strength to improve upon a weakness. Everything just went the wrong way after

Yeah, and if the Twins had traded Nick Punto for the Yankees for Derek Jeter, A-Rod, and then traded a young Valencia for Tim Lincecum, and then traded Casilla for Dustin Pedroia and David Ortiz, and then traded Parmalee for CC Sabathia, and then traded Pat Neshek for Roy Halladay, and then traded Dan Gladden for Vin Scully, and Justin Morneau never had a concussion, and Joe Mauer never got hurt, and Joe Nathan never got hurt, and Jesse Crain resigned with the Twins, we would be the World Series champs three years running, and everybody on this website would be drooling over the wonderful job Gardy is doing.

If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

If this and this and this... Get out of here with that nonsense.

Bark's Lounge
06-03-2012, 11:34 PM
If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

FDG - please tell me Christmas is not cancelled this year. I really need to talk to Santa.

Shane Wahl
06-04-2012, 02:27 AM
Yeah, and if the Twins had traded Nick Punto for the Yankees for Derek Jeter, A-Rod, and then traded a young Valencia for Tim Lincecum, and then traded Casilla for Dustin Pedroia and David Ortiz, and then traded Parmalee for CC Sabathia, and then traded Pat Neshek for Roy Halladay, and then traded Dan Gladden for Vin Scully, and Justin Morneau never had a concussion, and Joe Mauer never got hurt, and Joe Nathan never got hurt, and Jesse Crain resigned with the Twins, we would be the World Series champs three years running, and everybody on this website would be drooling over the wonderful job Gardy is doing.

If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

If this and this and this... Get out of here with that nonsense.

What in the HELL are you talking about? My point was simply that people looking back at the trade see it after the general collapse of Twins starting pitching since. But Twins starting pitching was viewed as an organizational strength at the time (and OF depth, especially RH OF depth, a weakness).

Don't tell me to "get out of here"---good god I cannot imagine a post here pissing me off more than this one.

Fire Dan Gladden
06-04-2012, 07:03 AM
Really? It looks to me like like you were saying that if these seven things went right, then everybody wouldn't feel so bad about a player the Twins overpaid for blowing up in their face (and yes, they did overpay, and yes, Young did not come close to his potential). At the time, the Twins had a surplus of AAAA control pitchers, not power guys. Trading Garza and a better-than-league-average starting shortstop for a poor defensive starting outfielder with one decent offensive season and a history of being a head case was a bad decision. The Twins have never been in a position where pitching was organizational strength.

As for your anger control issues over somebody you don't know calling you out on a comment made on a message board, I can only suggest counseling...

Shane Wahl
06-04-2012, 09:14 AM
Really? It looks to me like like you were saying that if these seven things went right, then everybody wouldn't feel so bad about a player the Twins overpaid for blowing up in their face (and yes, they did overpay, and yes, Young did not come close to his potential). At the time, the Twins had a surplus of AAAA control pitchers, not power guys. Trading Garza and a better-than-league-average starting shortstop for a poor defensive starting outfielder with one decent offensive season and a history of being a head case was a bad decision. The Twins have never been in a position where pitching was organizational strength.

As for your anger control issues over somebody you don't know calling you out on a comment made on a message board, I can only suggest counseling...

You weren't calling me out. You were wildly misinterpreting the point. I am sorry that I had the word "and" in there, though "or" wouldn't have been enough. You are not telling the truth when you say that the Twins did not have pitching depth at the time. The idea, which I thought was clear, was that if SP weren't such a problem right now, the trade would not look as bad.

Your what ifs involving ridiculous trades had no place as a response to that.

luckylager
06-04-2012, 09:16 AM
You shouldn't take everything you read and hear on the radio as the word of God. Information travels fast these days, and so does misinformation. Unless you're actually there or getting it from a reliable source who was actually there, you've got little more than speculation and rumor.

Amen. I am amazed by all who claim to have the inside dope on Gardy's relationship with players.

mike wants wins
06-04-2012, 09:29 AM
I don't think anyone is saying they've been there, or that they have some inside scoop. We are merely commenting on things printed in the paper, online, and said on KFAN and other outlets. You can choose to believe LaVelle and others, or not, your choice. I generally believe them when they talk about relationships (which isn't all that often, which is one reason I do believe them when they do). But no one on this thread is stating that have some secret knowledge that isn't widely available.

StormJH1
06-04-2012, 02:23 PM
Honestly...

The one who messed this whole thing up was Gardenhire:

He did not Garza in his team because Garza would not listen to Andy about throwing 2 seamers and pitching to contact. That has been documented and is out there. Then Young comes and Gardy plays him in a position he never played before (LF) instead of the position he has been an above average fielder in Tampa (check out his UZR), RF. Then the Twins started to throw Young under the bus when he did not like to listen to Vavra and wanted to pull the ball. And the kid carried the Twins in his back in 2010. And nobody gives him any credit for that.

Gardy initiated that mess of a trade and he has been in my doghouse for a while...
Absolutely. Well done.

I'm not really a "Gardy hater" - I think he has one or two great attributes for every one of his flaws. But he's very much a part of an organizational "culture" that seems to try and mold/shape guys like Garza who don't 100% drink the Kool-Aid, instead of letting them be who they are and appreciating that they play for your squad.

If we're talking about "did this trade look good at the time?", then I would have to say yes, and I don't really fault Smith for this deal. There's kind of this myth/false assumption that we got Delmon as a "failed" prospect, which is total BS. Delmon played two seasons for Tampa Bay at ages 20 and 21. 21 years old. And he batted .288 that year with a little bit of power. Sure, he didn't take walks, and a lot of his numbers are kind of ugly, but this was a guy that was absolutely fast-tracked and did NOT disappoint, relative to his age. His batting average his first three years as a Twin was .290, .284. and .298. Again, he didn't walk much, but he was hardly a bum.

Delmon played 163 games in RF and 30 games in CF for the Rays those two years. He had NEVER played left field. I understand that Cuddyer would have the edge to start in RF that year, but Gardy should have switched Span to LF and put Delmon back to RF once Cuddyer got injured. But he didn't because Gardy and this organization defer to "their guys", sometimes at the expense of the team. And Delmon absolutely was a huge factor in the success of the 2010 team, with some HUGE hits down the stretch, and basically replacing all of the production that people expected from Mauer, but didn't get.

Yes, it went bad later, but Garza needed to get out of here. And who knows if a different Garza trade would have been any better. We got 3.5 years out of Delmon, and we got them cheap, which allowed us to pay Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddy, and add a few pieces like Pavano, Thome, O-Dog, etc. Overall, yes, it was an obvious disappointment, but it was not the unmitigated disaster people seem to think it was in retrospect.

CDog
06-04-2012, 03:22 PM
Just to be That Guy, I've noticed a couple of claims here that Young carried the 2010 Twins to the playoffs. I know in another thread it was said that he did so "single-handedly." Young was an absolute beast in July '10, and his power (and the timing of the power, based on memory) was big in September. But he was brutal in August and after July he made outs just over 72% of the time he went to the plate. He had also gotten off to a somewhat slow start before a very good May and solid June. Meanwhile, Mauer did have a good start before a solid May and a poor-for-him-average-for everyone June, but then was enormous in July and August and about as good as Young after that (with the typical swap of OBP for power between them, but ending up around the same value as a hitter...something tells me Mauer might have been more valuable defensively, but that's just my feeling for now). He finished the year with a WAR of 5.5 (granted a step back from the monster '09, but a huge year nonetheless). Cuddyer was also big in July before being only average after that (but filling in for Morneau at first when there was absolutely no other option). Then, of course, Morneau was MVP-ish for his half season and Thome was a behemoth throughout the year in about half-time duty.

So Young (at the plate) wasn't exactly the only guy that contributed at the plate. Carry on.

one_eyed_jack
06-04-2012, 08:02 PM
I don't think anyone is saying they've been there, or that they have some inside scoop. We are merely commenting on things printed in the paper, online, and said on KFAN and other outlets. You can choose to believe LaVelle and others, or not, your choice. I generally believe them when they talk about relationships (which isn't all that often, which is one reason I do believe them when they do). But no one on this thread is stating that have some secret knowledge that isn't widely available.


---Maybe not directly, but there are certainly people basing judgments on things that only an insider would know. (any statement to the effect of Gardenhire disliked player X for reason Y so he orchestrated trade Z falls into this category.)

And while the local scribes and talking heads discuss this stuff and they are closer than any of us, they're not really insiders either. Much of what they say is based on rumor and perception, and they have an interest in getting people fired up about things, so I tend to take what they say with a grain of salt.