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John Bonnes
05-23-2012, 10:23 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?572-The-Right-Field-Mess

glunn
05-23-2012, 10:55 PM
I love Willingham, but he seems only marginally effective in left field. Does he have enough arm and speed to be adequate in right field?

Why not move Span into right field and let Revere play center? It seems to me that Revere gets to more balls than Span, and that Span has a strong enough arm to get some assists playing right field. Of course, as you have noted, Revere needs to get on base more, or go back to Rochester. But why not have the fastest outfielder in center field?

Shane Wahl
05-24-2012, 12:36 AM
Don't excuse Gardenhire for that, John. That was a huge mistake. Willingham should have been able to handle RF, an easier position at Target Field. It was a ridiculous decision.

But what do I know? I am the guy who wanted to throw a few million at Andruw Jones or Cody Ross or Bobby Abreu or Ty Wigginton or . . .

Left field is bigger than right field at the place the Twins play half of there games at. This Willingham thing caused a change reaction at the same time Morneau's situation caused a chain reaction and the Twins took the worst path possible. Sign Clete Thomas instead of moving Willingham over? What?

YourHouseIsMyHouse
05-24-2012, 03:05 AM
This is the reason the Twins should have resigned Kubel. I think it's about time Mastroianni gets sent back down or cut. He's a AAAA player who doesn't bring much to the clubhouse. Last night must have been his first start in 2 weeks because I don't remember him being a part of the 5 out of 6 "hot streak". We have enough poor outfielders as is with Plouffe and Komatsu. Since Komatsu is doing the best and has the most future potential, the others better be on thin ice.

nicksaviking
05-24-2012, 08:06 AM
I think this may speak to the lack of leadership from the veterans. It should be obvious to everyone on the team that the best scenario for the Twins is to move Josh Willingham or Denard Span to right so the best hitting option in the outfield grab bag, Ben Revere, can play. Michael Cuddyer volunteered to play which ever postion would most benefit the team. Despite Gold Gloves in six of the past seven years, Kirby Puckett was fine with moving to right field in the middle of 1993. I think Span and Willingham need to be held to some degree of blame as both have been reluctant to move although it would be in the best interest of the rest of the club.

mike wants wins
05-24-2012, 08:30 AM
Moving span makes sense if you are not trading him. If you are trading him, keep him in center. Not moving Willingham I the spring was a mistake. Now? Plouffe should play every day.

DAM DC Twins Fans
05-24-2012, 09:37 AM
We signed 2 free agent bats--Doumit and Willingham--unfortunately neither can play defense. Our only good defensive option in RF is Span. Our only good defensive option in LF is Revere. To me the answer is to play Revere in LF and Span in CF and Willingham in RF....until we bring up Benson and make Willingham a DH.

Texastwinsfan
05-24-2012, 10:02 AM
Would it be out of the realm of hope to consider Wilkin Ramirez. With a .343/.363/.586 line he has to warrant a shot at some point. He would have to be added to the 40 man roster but he seems to be a legitimate option to handle right field.

Boom Boom
05-24-2012, 10:12 AM
I love Willingham, but he seems only marginally effective in left field. Does he have enough arm and speed to be adequate in right field?

Why not move Span into right field and let Revere play center? It seems to me that Revere gets to more balls than Span, and that Span has a strong enough arm to get some assists playing right field. Of course, as you have noted, Revere needs to get on base more, or go back to Rochester. But why not have the fastest outfielder in center field?

If the Twins had a chance at competing, this would be the correct answer.

However, I get the feeling that they want Span to play center because moving him to a lesser defensive position may decrease his trade value a bit.

gunnarthor
05-24-2012, 10:21 AM
I think they should just let Revere play right for now. RF is large in target field and Willingham's arm isn't great either AND he's really slow. At least Revere has the range. I think the Twins should let Revere get 400 AB up here and see what they have.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
05-24-2012, 10:37 AM
Would it be out of the realm of hope to consider Wilkin Ramirez. With a .343/.363/.586 line he has to warrant a shot at some point. He would have to be added to the 40 man roster but he seems to be a legitimate option to handle right field.

I would have mentioned Ramirez as well because he's my adopt-a-prospect, but I think you have to focus solely on his triple A line. It's a .314/.314/.400 and has been on the decline recently. He's 1 for his last 9 and has really only played 8 games at AAA this season. He's been striking out at a very high rate as well. Ramirez could definitely be in the Twins plans, but they need to give him some more time to correct a few flaws.

Shane Wahl
05-24-2012, 11:36 AM
ginnarthor, LF is bigger than RF in Target Field.

To me, Ramirez should have been considered higher on the depth chart than Mastroianni, so we will see if they swap them in the next few weeks.

Shane Wahl
05-24-2012, 11:39 AM
To Plouffe: by the day you turn 26, you better have your (expletive deleted) together (close to .700 OPS by that time, for instance).

Seth Stohs
05-24-2012, 11:42 AM
ginnarthor, LF is bigger than RF in Target Field.

To me, Ramirez should have been considered higher on the depth chart than Mastroianni, so we will see if they swap them in the next few weeks.

He probably is and would have been if he was back and playing yet when Mastroianni was called up. Mastroianni was playing really well when they had a need. Now he's hardly playing so sending him down makes sense.

Rosterman
05-24-2012, 11:49 AM
Depending on Swarzak and what the Twins wish to do with Blackburn, they ight have to swap out Mastro for another pitcher.

But, yes, Willingham should be in right field, although the sun hitting him out there deadens his profile for all the fans! Or Span, who has major value ONLY as a centerfielder, so you hate to pull THAT plug too soon. Revere can play right, but then you have TWO dead arms playing the wrong spots in the outfield.

We complain about Revere's on-base. Yes, he can take a few more pitches and a lot more walks. He needs to learn who to bunt. He can run and I am excited everytime he gets on base and I want the Twins, in the midst of a dismal season, request Revere to steal everytime he makes it to first and almost everytime he makes it to second. Let's make this guy Mr. Pressure. It amps up the game. The question is where do ou bat him in the order and who do you put immediately behind him to best use his stealing abilities.

But don't complain about on-base when the other three candidates are batting, what.......192. You can bury a dead bat somewhere (third base) in one position, but not two. And give Revere the chance, please.

But then the question is, amisdt all the Span talk, who actually will come up and take the vacant outfield spot and how dismal MIGHT they be while given the chance (Benson).

USAFChief
05-24-2012, 11:49 AM
The problem isn't where you play Willingham and/or Revere. The problem is the Twins are short one everyday outfielder, unless you think Revere can hit enough to play every day for a good team, which is at the least unknown, at the worst very unlikely.

There might be some small defensive benefit to playing Revere in left and Willingham in right, primarily due to Revere's weak arm, but other than that, the idea that somehow Revere's speed makes a huge difference in LF but not in RF is nonsense. Corner OF defense just isn't that difficult or important to worry much about anyway.

stringer bell
05-24-2012, 11:56 AM
The idea of moving the starting outfielders around makes sense if Revere is considered a regular. I don't think he has proved that. With Parmelee out of the mix, Willingham can probably be used as a DH more and Revere can play more LF. I suspect Span will be on the market this summer. If he is moved, Revere is probably the regular CF.

Montecore
05-24-2012, 12:21 PM
I'd go with Willingham in RF, Span in CF, and Revere in LF. Sure, they need an all-around OF, as to whom that would be...? I'd like to see what Revere can do. Stick with Plouffe at 3B.

savvyspy
05-24-2012, 01:50 PM
Not that it matters, but Span should move to right with Revere in center. Its a somewhat interesting conversation but the fact remains is this is by far the worst roster in the majors and Gardy doesn't have a ton of options. Maybe the front office will decide to get off its hands and blow this thing up rather than act like they are Jason Marquis away from contending. Until then you could play a traffic cone in right and the team wouldn't be that much better or worse.

tmerrickkeller
05-24-2012, 01:55 PM
As we armchair GM this thing, you gotta start with "here's where we are now" not "here's what we should have done in the offseason to avoid being here." The decisions, when they were made, weren't all bad - if Willingham would have played RF and let Revere play LF, if Parmelee would have hit, if Clete Thomas or Komatsu or Mastroianni or Plouffe or Doumit would have found a home, this wouldn't be a topic of conversation. None of that happened, and here's where we are now. My first choice would be to move Span to RF and put Revere in CF everyday right now. I appreciate the comments about putting Span in the best position to showcase his skills, but there isn't a GM in baseball who doesn't know that Span can play center. They might even think that the Twins are under-utilizing his skillset in right, and that makes him more valuable to another team who thinks that he'll do even better if placed back in his "natural" position. Plan B - Willingham goes to RF, Revere to LF. I know Ben's not getting on base all that much, but he adds a spark to this team that no one else on the roster touches, and anyone who undervalues outfield defense is missing both the momentum swings that happen with great defensive plays, and, in most cases, were also bemoaning watching Delmon play there the past few years (and, frankly, forgive me for saying, but Willingham hasn't looked much better than Delmon ever did).

Point being, we gotta do something different. We can maximize defense and keep the same guys in the lineup and start letting them settle in - I like the lineup of Span RF, Dozier SS, Mauer C, Willingham LF, Morneau 1B, Doumit DH, Plouffe 3B, Carroll/Casilla 2b and Revere CF, with all the options available if we only have 1 backup outfielder (Komatsu?), plus Butera, Carroll/Casilla, and 1 more bench player (hoping its Valencia once he turns things around in AAA platooning with Plouffe).

goliath
05-24-2012, 02:00 PM
I wonder if it would be worth looking into trading for Travis Snider from Toronto. He's still young at 24, he's lost some luster, stuck at AAA, hasn't been able to stick at the majors, may need change of scenery. Mashes RH pitching OPS 1.146 (but only .530 vs LH). Platoon with Plouffe?

ashburyjohn
05-24-2012, 02:05 PM
Willingham not playing RF is baffling to me. I can't believe there is any other explanation than him asking Gardenhire not to put him there, after the short trial period in Spring Training. His prior lack of experience there seems due to having been on teams having a lefty-throwing incumbent. Otherwise his profile (OK arm, slow speed) maps exactly to RF - he used to be a catcher, a position I doubt Revere ever tried. And using the lack of experience/comfort there doesn't wash anyway: Darin Mastroianni had essentially never played there in his pro career, being mostly CF with some LF, but he tackled it. Of course Mastro *had* to say yes when Gardy told him to do it, because he's hardly secure as a major leaguer and will do whatever task is asked. But then that doesn't speak very well of Willingham, does it? You want your veteran to be a stand-up guy for the good of the team. By all accounts, Josh is very well thought of, but this particular angle is very perplexing.

CDog
05-24-2012, 02:32 PM
Willingham not playing RF is baffling to me. I can't believe there is any other explanation than him asking Gardenhire not to put him there, after the short trial period in Spring Training. His prior lack of experience there seems due to having been on teams having a lefty-throwing incumbent. Otherwise his profile (OK arm, slow speed) maps exactly to RF - he used to be a catcher, a position I doubt Revere ever tried. And using the lack of experience/comfort there doesn't wash anyway: Darin Mastroianni had essentially never played there in his pro career, being mostly CF with some LF, but he tackled it. Of course Mastro *had* to say yes when Gardy told him to do it, because he's hardly secure as a major leaguer and will do whatever task is asked. But then that doesn't speak very well of Willingham, does it? You want your veteran to be a stand-up guy for the good of the team. By all accounts, Josh is very well thought of, but this particular angle is very perplexing.

So you say it's baffling...then give the "only" explanation that you can think of...and then explain why that explanation doens't make sense. I dont' get it. They came to spring training with Willingham in right and Revere in left, Gardy went on record saying he didn't like Revere in left as much as he expected, and they moved Willingham back. Maybe that's a "cover story," but why do we need to search hard for a conspiracy when the given story makes as much sense as anything else? Other than Revere's arm being more suited to LF than RF, which became a non-issue when he was sent to AAA, the rest of the outfield trouble would only be swapping the bad hitters from RF to LF.

ashburyjohn
05-24-2012, 03:09 PM
So you say it's baffling...then give the "only" explanation that you can think of...[] Gardy went on record saying he didn't like Revere in left as much as he expected, and they moved Willingham back.

Fair enough. I find it also baffling for someone to prefer Willingham in left. :)

I thought the "book" was to put your outfielder with all the tools in center, the outfielder with an arm but no speed in right, and the outfielder lacking the arm but good wheels in left. If you have an outfielder with neither speed nor arm, you DH him. I didn't think Willingham's arm was at issue, just his speed and maybe his dexterity.

But you're right, I threw darts at a player's stand-uppyness in the presence of his manager giving him cover (whether it's the truth or not or someplace in between), putting me on shaky ground.

Fire Dan Gladden
05-24-2012, 03:14 PM
Before Span was locked into CF, he was a Gold Glove caliber LF. His CF play has been average to maybe slightly above. Everybody knows that Revere can't play RF with the pea-shooter arm. Span needs to take one for the team, move to RF, and let Revere et. al. handle CF. This decision should be easy.

CDog
05-24-2012, 03:18 PM
Fair enough. I find it also baffling for someone to prefer Willingham in left. :)


In another thread somewhere, we got to the same place. That part I can't necessarily explain, but I think the rotary of "others" they've played in the outfield this year are not known to be better or worse in either corner, so I don't know if it's a huge difference to put the Hammer where he's played more.

ashburyjohn
05-24-2012, 04:11 PM
...the rotary of "others" they've played in the outfield this year are not known to be better or worse in either corner, so I don't know if it's a huge difference to put the Hammer where he's played more.

The uncertainty of who is going to emerge is probably the answer. Since I'm not in the "Revere is odds-on" camp, color me un-baffled, at least until some other riddle comes along. :)

jmlease1
05-24-2012, 04:41 PM
I've seen no indicators that Willingham would be any worse in RF than he would be in LF, considering his ugly approach to balls in LF, I'd think having less territory (and a decent enough arm) would make him better off in RF. And while I understand the idea of not jacking around your best hitter...I don't like the general Gardy philosophy of kowtowing to a player's wishes for where they get to play in the field. Right now the Twins best OF alignment would be Span in LF, Revere in CF, and Willingham in RF, but we won't see it because Span wants to play CF and Willingham apparently prefers to play LF. The inmates shouldn't run the asylum, but this is how Gardy keeps his rep as a player's coach.

Plouffe is acceptable right now against LHP, but is a disaster against RHP, so he needs a platoon partner. Doumit should be able to fill it once he gets a bit healthier. I mean, come on, we all know that Butera is re-installed as the backup catcher, and will be there even if he goes 0-50. twins just need another bat or any kind, really.

Visnovsky
05-24-2012, 05:57 PM
I still don't see why Gardy isn't playing Ramos and Hardy. Hardy at SS, Ramos at DH/C, Dozier at 3rd, and Doumit in RF. Then you have Span, Mauer, Willingham, Morneau and Cassilla/Carrol fill out the rest of the lineup.

Shane Wahl
05-24-2012, 06:06 PM
I still don't see why Gardy isn't playing Ramos and Hardy. Hardy at SS, Ramos at DH/C, Dozier at 3rd, and Doumit in RF. Then you have Span, Mauer, Willingham, Morneau and Cassilla/Carrol fill out the rest of the lineup.

Haha! Nice.

Shane Wahl
05-24-2012, 06:10 PM
I still don't understand how it isn't obvious that they should have gone with the OG lineup coming into spring training? Revere may not be great, but he certainly is probably about a .100 OPS better than the nonsense thrown out in RF (Doumit as a RF didn't hit either), and the defensive improvement alone might be worth a win.

Shane Wahl
05-24-2012, 06:11 PM
By the way, I am sure that Revere would be an elite LF, defensively. Good-great CF, but elite LF.

twinzgrl
05-24-2012, 07:46 PM
I love Willingham, but he seems only marginally effective in left field. Does he have enough arm and speed to be adequate in right field?

Why not move Span into right field and let Revere play center? It seems to me that Revere gets to more balls than Span, and that Span has a strong enough arm to get some assists playing right field. Of course, as you have noted, Revere needs to get on base more, or go back to Rochester. But why not have the fastest outfielder in center field?
I agree with this totally. I don't understand why they are messing around with Thomas/Komatsu/Mastroianni--just let Revere play. Find out if he is a big leaguer this year. This is the perfect year to give him a test drive. He is an exciting player, fun to watch, always hustling. Work with him to improve his walks, bunts, steals, etc. Let's find out!

Ultima Ratio
05-24-2012, 10:13 PM
Rockies suck, guess we can try to get Cuddyer back.

gil4
05-25-2012, 11:39 AM
I still don't see why Gardy isn't playing Ramos and Hardy. Hardy at SS, Ramos at DH/C, Dozier at 3rd, and Doumit in RF. Then you have Span, Mauer, Willingham, Morneau and Cassilla/Carrol fill out the rest of the lineup.

Sounds good, but who would the closer be? You can't have a decent team without a Proven CloserTM