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Shane Wahl
05-20-2012, 03:44 PM
Now that the blow up has occurred, time to DFA him and not care if some team is foolish enough to claim him. Time to go with guys who might be part of the future, namely Slama.

greengoblinrulz
05-20-2012, 04:02 PM
They wont YET, but another bad game or 2 & they will finally turn to Deolis Guerra, not the 28 yr old Slama (who I am a fan of).

The Greatest Poster Alive
05-20-2012, 10:25 PM
He's had ONE bad game. What a stupid reactionary move that would be.

striker_86
05-20-2012, 11:01 PM
yea, he has still been very good with the game on the line....

greengoblinrulz
05-20-2012, 11:40 PM
I didnt say cut him now, just wait and its also not about what he did today.....more of how he has done for his career. Same with Matt Maloney. Just wait, he'll deserve his DFA eventually.

Shane Wahl
05-20-2012, 11:43 PM
He's had ONE bad game. What a stupid reactionary move that would be.

Oh my. No. He has never been a good pitcher. Ever. Except he has kept his ERA done miraculously this year so far. Now that is no more. NOW is the time to say thanks, but we have other guys who will be a part of the future. Jeff Gray is not part of the future.

Nick Nelson
05-21-2012, 12:12 PM
Slama in his last 10 appearances for Rochester: 11.2 IP, 0 R, 6 H, 5 BB, 20 K.

Thrylos
05-21-2012, 01:19 PM
Both Gray and Burton are regressing to the mean. Burton used to have a 0.042 BABIP at some point. That was unsustainable. So was Gray's lack of runs with the kind of h/9 and BB/9 he allowed. If you can get anything from them (like a D level prospect) try to but otherwise... I think Gray is a goner when Blackburn gets off the DL and I would rather have Slama than Burton any day of the week.

SpiritofVodkaDave
05-21-2012, 01:22 PM
Slama in his last 10 appearances for Rochester: 11.2 IP, 0 R, 6 H, 5 BB, 20 K.

I'm sure he will get the call up soon enough.

SpiritofVodkaDave
05-21-2012, 01:25 PM
Both Gray and Burton are regressing to the mean. Burton used to have a 0.042 BABIP at some point. That was unsustainable. So was Gray's lack of runs with the kind of h/9 and BB/9 he allowed. If you can get anything from them (like a D level prospect) try to but otherwise... I think Gray is a goner when Blackburn gets off the DL and I would rather have Slama than Burton any day of the week.

There is a big difference between Burton and Gray, Gray is basically organizational filler and has no upside, he will be gone soon one way or another, Burton, while not great is a guy worth holding onto for a bit, he is still striking guys out at the majors, always showed that ability in the minors as well.

Nick Nelson
05-21-2012, 01:33 PM
I think Gray is a goner when Blackburn gets off the DL and I would rather have Slama than Burton any day of the week.
Whoa, I like Slama but that's a little bit ridiculous. Burton has a track record of prolonged success in the majors when healthy, and right now he certainly appears to be healthy. He's a quality reliever and a great find.

Hard to claim that the guy is lucky when he's striking out 27 percent of opponents.

travistwinstalk
05-21-2012, 01:51 PM
criticize Ryan all you want for the Marquis signing as he deserves criticism for that. However, don't be so kneejerk as Gray and Burton were great finds and have been the reason the Twins bullpen is the deepest it has been in years. Both Gray and Burton are reliable relief pitchers at the big league level. Gray in his past 9 outings before yesterday had given up 2 runs in his last 11 innings and has become a reliable middle relief guy. Burton for a long time was the Twins most reliable reliever pitching 11.2 hitless innings and of course he was going to come back to the pack a little bit, but it is a bit early to jump so quickly off his bandwagon. I have just as much confidence in Burton and Gray as I do in Perkins, Capps, and Duensing. Of all the problems the Twins have the bullpen is not one of them.

SpiritofVodkaDave
05-21-2012, 01:58 PM
criticize Ryan all you want for the Marquis signing as he deserves criticism for that. However, don't be so kneejerk as Gray and Burton were great finds and have been the reason the Twins bullpen is the deepest it has been in years. Both Gray and Burton are reliable relief pitchers at the big league level. Gray in his past 9 outings before yesterday had given up 2 runs in his last 11 innings and has become a reliable middle relief guy. Burton for a long time was the Twins most reliable reliever pitching 11.2 hitless innings and of course he was going to come back to the pack a little bit, but it is a bit early to jump so quickly off his bandwagon. I have just as much confidence in Burton and Gray as I do in Perkins, Capps, and Duensing. Of all the problems the Twins have the bullpen is not one of them.

Burton is a pretty nice arm, Gray on the other hands, while not awful is basically a replacement level player. It wasn't a bad signing by any means as it allows the Twins to have additional depth in the organization etc.

The nice thing about Burton as well is that we could have him under team control next year as well. I believe he can become a free agent in 2014?

Shane Wahl
05-21-2012, 02:07 PM
criticize Ryan all you want for the Marquis signing as he deserves criticism for that. However, don't be so kneejerk as Gray and Burton were great finds and have been the reason the Twins bullpen is the deepest it has been in years. Both Gray and Burton are reliable relief pitchers at the big league level. Gray in his past 9 outings before yesterday had given up 2 runs in his last 11 innings and has become a reliable middle relief guy. Burton for a long time was the Twins most reliable reliever pitching 11.2 hitless innings and of course he was going to come back to the pack a little bit, but it is a bit early to jump so quickly off his bandwagon. I have just as much confidence in Burton and Gray as I do in Perkins, Capps, and Duensing. Of all the problems the Twins have the bullpen is not one of them.

I like Burton and dislike Gray. Why? Because one is good and the other is not. Burton's career stats are good when he is healthy. Jeff Gray has been pretty bad in his career, and his minor league numbers weren't much better. He should have never been given a major league contract in the first place.

That the bullpen hasn't been a problem does not mean that it still can't be improved. They have to improve personnel where they can.

Thrylos
05-21-2012, 02:20 PM
The nice thing about Burton as well is that we could have him under team control next year as well. I believe he can become a free agent in 2014?

He is a free agent after this season. He signed an one year contract. It was not one of those waiver wire pickups like Maloney, Gray and Vasquez.

Shane Wahl
05-21-2012, 02:26 PM
Burton was good enough to be considered as a closer candidate for the Reds before he got hurt. Maybe that doesn't mean much in the era of the "proven closer" mentality, but I would guess that Burton just hit a blip whereas Gray is going to be more of the same now.

SpiritofVodkaDave
05-21-2012, 02:31 PM
He is a free agent after this season. He signed an one year contract. It was not one of those waiver wire pickups like Maloney, Gray and Vasquez.

What I am seeing is that he is arb eligible after this season, so the Twins can hold onto him and he can't become a free agent until 2014.

Seth Stohs
05-21-2012, 02:31 PM
He is a free agent after this season. He signed an one year contract. It was not one of those waiver wire pickups like Maloney, Gray and Vasquez.

SpiritofVodkaDave is correct. He has one year worth of arbitration remaining. Twins have control until after 2014.

SpiritofVodkaDave
05-21-2012, 02:39 PM
SpiritofVodkaDave is correct. He has one year worth of arbitration remaining. Twins have control until after 2014.

Yeah, exactly, its sorta like when the Red Sox signed David Ortiz as a "free agent" but he still had an additional year of arb eligibility which is why they ended up with 2 cost controlled years of him.

Thrylos
05-21-2012, 02:40 PM
SpiritofVodkaDave is correct. He has one year worth of arbitration remaining. Twins have control until after 2014.

I am confused here: if a free agent signs an one year contract, he is not a free agent after the next season? I understand how arbitration works after trades and waiver picks but didn't Burton just sign an one year contract?

snepp
05-21-2012, 02:57 PM
Service time is service time, it doesn't matter where you come from. He won't have the necessary service time at the end of the year to choose free agency on his own.

SpiritofVodkaDave
05-21-2012, 03:01 PM
I am confused here: if a free agent signs an one year contract, he is not a free agent after the next season? I understand how arbitration works after trades and waiver picks but didn't Burton just sign an one year contract?
You can only gain "true" free agent rights after you acquire enough service time in the major leagues, if you are cut in the meantime you can sign with any team of your choosing, but if you happen to have a monster year you can't just go back onto the market and demand a multi year deal (imagine if this was the case for Josh Hamilton who was cut by numerous teams)

The fact we have Burton for another year makes it more foolish to even consider cutting him, I'm not against trading him by any means, but you have to make sure you get some decent talent back as he isn't a guy you should just trade for anything (unlike Pavano, Doumit and possibly Jamey Carroll at this point)

SpiritofVodkaDave
05-21-2012, 03:02 PM
Service time is service time, it doesn't matter when you come from. He won't have the necessary service time at the end of the year to choose free agency on his own.

Whoa, your alive?

greengoblinrulz
06-09-2012, 07:36 PM
Can we all just admit that Gray will be the casualty when we need the 5th starter next SAT.
Last 7gms 6.1IP 9h 10er 3bb 4k
5.16 ERA when 2nd worse pen ERA is Perkins 3.65
We have 7 competant bullpen guys w/o him & several deserving relievers in AAA.

Thrylos
06-09-2012, 07:46 PM
Can we all just admit that Gray will be the casualty when we need the 5th starter next SAT.
Last 7gms 6.1IP 9h 10er 3bb 4k
5.16 ERA when 2nd worse pen ERA is Perkins 3.65
We have 7 competant bullpen guys w/o him & several deserving relievers in AAA.

Should be (and should have been a while ago - and at least they are using him in blowouts, which is good) but will be? Who knows? They might send down Manship again.

stringer bell
06-09-2012, 08:22 PM
Can we all just admit that Gray will be the casualty when we need the 5th starter next SAT.
Last 7gms 6.1IP 9h 10er 3bb 4k
5.16 ERA when 2nd worse pen ERA is Perkins 3.65
We have 7 competant bullpen guys w/o him & several deserving relievers in AAA.I pretty much agree all the way with greengolblinrulz. While you play a little with stats, Gray's numbers overall just aren't that good. There are several relief pitchers in the minors, some with considerable upside. The team is carrying only four starters. Gray isn't needed and there are a lot of replacements for him.

IdahoPilgrim
06-09-2012, 09:19 PM
Now that the blow up has occurred, time to DFA him and not care if some team is foolish enough to claim him. Time to go with guys who might be part of the future, namely Slama.

Isn't Slama on the DL right now? I'm guessing they would go with Guerra.

jorgenswest
06-09-2012, 09:25 PM
For now, Gray is fine in his mop up role. The Rockies DFA'd a 26 year with a live arm and horrible numbers. The Twins might inquire about Esmil Rogers. His arm is solid enough that the Rockies will probably be able to make a trade.

I'd like to see if Slama can be part of the solution, but I believe he is injured now. It might also be good to see Guerra who will be out of options next year. Hopefully, he will get at least 2 months of this season with the Twins. Hendriks is a logical call up for the 5th starter but he might be better off with another 6 weeks in AAA. Another guy I would like to see later is Oliveros. Guerra, Oliveros and Hendriks are young and would benefit from more time in AAA. It also may delay their arbitration year.

jokin
06-09-2012, 09:42 PM
Isn't Slama on the DL right now? I'm guessing they would go with Guerra.

7-day DL. Assuming he's healthy, he'd be ready to go after next Wednesday.

stringer bell
06-09-2012, 09:47 PM
For now, Gray is fine in his mop up role. The Rockies DFA'd a 26 year with a live arm and horrible numbers. The Twins might inquire about Esmil Rogers. His arm is solid enough that the Rockies will probably be able to make a trade.

I'd like to see if Slama can be part of the solution, but I believe he is injured now. It might also be good to see Guerra who will be out of options next year. Hopefully, he will get at least 2 months of this season with the Twins. Hendriks is a logical call up for the 5th starter but he might be better off with another 6 weeks in AAA. Another guy I would like to see later is Oliveros. Guerra, Oliveros and Hendriks are young and would benefit from more time in AAA. It also may delay their arbitration year.The Twins are carrying two long reliever types in addition to Gray (Swarzak & Manship). They could use another RH 7th inning guy along with Burton because the Twins don't want to use Burton on consecutive days. Gray isn't that guy, and I don't think Manship or Swarzak is either. Slama, Guerra, Oliveros, and Fien all could fill that role better than Gray.

SweetOne69
06-11-2012, 08:53 AM
I am confused here: if a free agent signs an one year contract, he is not a free agent after the next season? I understand how arbitration works after trades and waiver picks but didn't Burton just sign an one year contract?

Most players sign 1 year contracts through their arbitration years. While Burton did sign a 1 year contract he doesn't have enough seniority to become a FA. Let's give another example. Alexi Casilla signed a 1 year contract for this year but he will not be a free agent at the end of the season (unless he is non-tendered) as he has 1 year of arbitration remaining.

spideyo
06-11-2012, 09:13 AM
I'm gonna guess actually that unless Manship starts, he'll get sent back down. No reason to DFA a guy when we have guys with options we can send down that aren't doing that much better

mike wants wins
06-11-2012, 09:24 AM
I've never understood the argument that you should keep a bad player on your roster, because his role is unimportant. I'd rather they cut bad players, than keep them around for low leverage roles, especialy relievers. Between Slama, Guerra and Oliveras, they are covered with fine options. Cut him, cut him now, and bring up whichever of those three you like.

mike wants wins
06-11-2012, 09:25 AM
spdieyo, the reason to DFA Gray is that he's bad at his job. Just because Masihp isn't good either (in some peoples' opinions) doesn't excuse keeping Gray on the roster.

roger
06-11-2012, 09:49 AM
I've never understood the argument that you should keep a bad player on your roster, because his role is unimportant. I'd rather they cut bad players, than keep them around for low leverage roles, especialy relievers. Between Slama, Guerra and Oliveras, they are covered with fine options. Cut him, cut him now, and bring up whichever of those three you like.

Slama is on the disabled list.

Rosterman
06-11-2012, 09:58 AM
The Twins can offer him arbitration and thus have to sign him for an agreed upon amount. He is not a free agent, unless the Twins don't offer arbitration. They still have one more year of control. Gray, if waivered, would have to be claimed and kept on the 50-man roster of a team (and the 25 for now). Not sure if he can refuse a minor league assignment and become a free agent if not claimed. Doubtful. Would be like Maloney. Slama is on the DL. That could hurt any immediate chances with the Twins. Nothing like bringing a guy up from the kinors and then him being injured and getting paid major league money for sitting around. Oliveros is probably higher on the list than Guerra, still. Anyone worrying about the absolute need for Swarzak if you can have a choice between him, Manship, and say DeVries?

mike wants wins
06-11-2012, 10:05 AM
I am aware that slama is on the dl, for a few days. Not sure how that impacts if Gray is kept around or not, given they have at least two more options.

J-Dog Dungan
06-11-2012, 10:09 AM
slama is indeed on the DL, but once he comes off, it will be him and Guerra fighting for a spot up with the big club.

Shane Wahl
06-11-2012, 10:11 AM
Given Manship is fine, I want Gray and Swarzak to be DFAed. They are both not good. Both have viable replacements (Manship becomes long man) when Slama is back and either Waldrop, Oliveros, or Guerra is promoted.

stringer bell
06-11-2012, 10:47 AM
Swarzak has been good as a long man and okay as a mopup guy. He's been knocked around as a starter. Given the state of the Twins rotation, two long guys (Manship and Swarzak) makes sense, especially if they stay with a 12-man staff. I would say that Manship has done nothing to merit demotion, Swarzak has done more good than bad, while Gray hasn't done that much in the last month. More than his appearance against the Cubs, I think Gray's fate may have been decided by his outing against the Royals when he had a 5-run lead and couldn't finish the inning. While moving Gray would likely cost his spot, there are 3-5 guys at Rochester that can do what he does and perhaps more. It does sound like the move will be DFAing Gray and Hendriks being recalled to fill out the rotation.

jimbo92107
06-11-2012, 11:28 AM
Now that the blow up has occurred, time to DFA him and not care if some team is foolish enough to claim him. Time to go with guys who might be part of the future, namely Slama.

The Anthony Slama situation makes no sense to me. Sure, it's great to have a relief staff that all throws mid-90's heat, but the whole point is to get guys out, and Slama does that better than anybody else in the Twins minor league system. The whole bias against pitchers that succeed with craft and guile is an insult to a hundred years of great pitchers. It's why R.A. Dickey is pitching for the Mets with his 9 wins and one loss. It's why the Atlanta Braves gave up on Scott Diamond.

Knuckleballers can't win. Starters should all have mid-90's heat. Relievers should all touch 97mph, maybe 98.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

How about this: Pitchers should keep their team in the game, however they do it.

stringer bell
06-11-2012, 12:28 PM
The Anthony Slama situation makes no sense to me. Sure, it's great to have a relief staff that all throws mid-90's heat, but the whole point is to get guys out, and Slama does that better than anybody else in the Twins minor league system. The whole bias against pitchers that succeed with craft and guile is an insult to a hundred years of great pitchers. It's why R.A. Dickey is pitching for the Mets with his 9 wins and one loss. It's why the Atlanta Braves gave up on Scott Diamond.

Knuckleballers can't win. Starters should all have mid-90's heat. Relievers should all touch 97mph, maybe 98.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

How about this: Pitchers should keep their team in the game, however they do it.I believe the Twins' staff doesn't think his stuff will carry over to get major league hitters out, not whether Slama throws 91 or 96 or 86. The club's one obvious bias for pitchers is guys who throw strikes. In Slama's brief time with the Twins, he didn't do that very well IIRC. Slama is not getting overtly overlooked as much as he is a victim of circumstance. If he were putting up the kind of numbers he is this year in 2011, he would have been on the major league roster for a month. There is a full bullpen and with the possible exception of Gray, all of them have done very well and would likely do as well or better than Slama.

snepp
06-11-2012, 01:14 PM
The club's one obvious bias for pitchers is guys who throw strikes.

Which is something else Jeff Gray doesn't do.


He's a lousy reliever, get rid of him.

snepp
07-26-2012, 05:45 PM
Bump. Can we dump this guy yet?

Clyde
07-26-2012, 05:54 PM
Bump. Can we dump this guy yet?
Was this guy involved with your wife whe nyou were not looking or do you just have nothing better to do than complain about the 12-13 pitcher on the roster?

snepp
07-26-2012, 06:36 PM
As long as everyone else does their job it doesn't matter how pathetic the end of the roster is.


That about sum it up?

USAFChief
07-26-2012, 06:41 PM
Are we sure Jeff Gray IS the 12th or 13th pitcher on the roster?

twinsnorth49
07-26-2012, 06:57 PM
What is the point of keeping Gray? Bring someone up who has a future, Slama, Guerra, Oliveros. What does Gray do for this team at this point?

Nick Nelson
07-26-2012, 08:18 PM
Those garbage innings that Gray's been mopping up would be a perfect opportunity to get a look at one of their borderline guys at Triple-A. The Twins are wasting an opportunity to get a kid some low-leverage exposure to the big leagues by handing innings to a lousy pitcher who (we can only hope) will not be with the team past this year.

Pretty baffling.

Buck Nasty
07-26-2012, 09:31 PM
Gray has some interesting splits this year:

23.0 innings, 8 BB, 16 K, 3.91 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, .244 BAA (HOME)

17.2 innings, 11 BB, 4 K, 7.13 ERA, 1.92 WHIP, .311 BAA (AWAY)

I understand it's small sample. Still - I thought it was interesting - especially the strikeouts. Regardless. The way this team is burning up arms, I'm confident they'll get a look at everyone they want to see by year end.

snepp
07-31-2012, 09:39 PM
*cough*

Rosterman
07-31-2012, 10:09 PM
Burton was declined a contract by his former team and thus became the equivalent of a minor-league free agent during the off-season. But the Twins can offer him arbitration if they wish for one more year. If they don't, he's a free agent again and can sign with anyone. The last team didn't feel he was worth the extra $$$ (similar to what the Twins did with Jose Mijares, who I believe has another arbitration year, but the Twins didn't want to pay him a million...but whatever team signed him could sign him for considerably less. The "current" team is always penalized, it seems. Like The Twins would have to offer Frankie $12.5 million. Now the Sox have to or lose him. The Twins could conceivably sign him for less. The Sox can't, unless they do a multi-year deal.

snepp
08-26-2012, 09:06 PM
Jeff Gray Watch 2012:

On the Fangraphs leaderboard, of 146 relievers...

144th ERA 5.71
145th FIP 5.85
146th xFIP 5.44
145th K/9 4.5

Worst of all, there are 52 innings of this embarrassment now.

Is there anyone left out there willing to defend this?

Bark's Lounge
08-26-2012, 09:26 PM
Jeff Gray Watch 2012:

On the Fangraphs leaderboard, of 146 relievers...

144th ERA 5.71
145th FIP 5.85
146th xFIP 5.44
145th K/9 4.5

Worst of all, there are 52 innings of this embarrassment now.

Is there anyone left out there willing to defend this?

Maybe he gives killer massages. Come tomorrow if he is not DFA'd or released this will become my conclusion. A great massage must be way better than winning a stupid baseball game anytime of the week, year, decade or millennium. Oh well, how do I get myself in position to let Jeff Gray get his hands all over me? Whew... I'm tense.

TheLeviathan
08-26-2012, 09:40 PM
Jeff Gray making a major league baseball salary is basically a gross human rights violation at this point. This of the many ways that money could be better spent.

greengoblinrulz
08-26-2012, 09:43 PM
Jeff Gray Watch 2012:

On the Fangraphs leaderboard, of 146 relievers...

144th ERA 5.71
145th FIP 5.85
146th xFIP 5.44
145th K/9 4.5

Worst of all, there are 52 innings of this embarrassment now.

Is there anyone left out there willing to defend this?

if you break it down by Jeff Gray's 52 IP.......Gray is 69th out of 70 qualified w/4.53 K/9...last is Alex Burnett w/3.53:cry:...Anthony Swarzak is also 60th w/6.03....one thing our righthanded relievers can do is NOT strike guys out.....no wonder they dont want Slama
Gray is last in ERA w/5.71 out of the 70 'qualified' relievers

ScottyB
08-28-2012, 07:01 PM
[The Anthony Slama situation makes no sense to me. Sure, it's great to have a relief staff that all throws mid-90's heat, but the whole point is to get guys out, and Slama does that better than anybody else in the Twins minor league system. The whole bias against pitchers that succeed with craft and guile is an insult to a hundred years of great pitchers. It's why R.A. Dickey is pitching for the Mets with his 9 wins and one loss. It's why the Atlanta Braves gave up on Scott Diamond.

Knuckleballers can't win. Starters should all have mid-90's heat. Relievers should all touch 97mph, maybe 98.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

How about this: Pitchers should keep their team in the game, however they do it.


Yeah I still don't get the Slama deal. Why was he taken off the 40-man? He was basically given no chance. His line last year 2 games, 2.1 IP, 0.00 ERA, 0 H, 2 BB, 3 K, 0.86 WHIP.

I'll take those numbers any day.

GCTF
08-28-2012, 08:31 PM
Jeff Gray should be isolated and studied so that future generations aren't affected by his suckiness.

ashburyjohn
08-28-2012, 09:52 PM
Jeff Gray Watch 2012:

You should maintain this in the Adopt-a-Minor-Leaguer section and see if the mods dare delete it.

snepp
08-29-2012, 01:21 PM
http://www.riversidepoliceofficersassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/candlelight-vigil.jpg