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Parker Hageman
05-18-2012, 12:20 PM
Let's say the Twins get to the point over the next few weeks that an inevitable shake-up needs to occur. Similar to what the Angels just did with the firing of hitting coach Mickey Hatcher (http://www.centredaily.com/2012/05/17/3199611/bill-shaikin-is-the-scioscia-era.html), let's say the Twins front office decide to send a message to the clubhouse by axing either hitting coach Joe Vavra or pitching coach Rick Anderson. Which of the two would you fire and why?

Note: One or the other and not both. No cheating by saying Ron Gardenhire or Terry Ryan.

Shane Wahl
05-18-2012, 12:23 PM
Rick Anderson, in part because the pitching is so completely terrible, but more in particular because has been so terrible consistently early in games. Something has got to be off with preparation and approach, and I have a hard time believing that each individual pitcher is having the same problem independently.

SweetOne69
05-18-2012, 12:32 PM
Rick Anderson, in part because the pitching is so completely terrible, but more in particular because has been so terrible consistently early in games. Something has got to be off with preparation and approach, and I have a hard time believing that each individual pitcher is having the same problem independently.

I agree with this. Plus even when we have had decent pitching in the past, under Anderson the whole starting staff would collapse at the same time (Usually for the month of June).

DJSim22
05-18-2012, 12:41 PM
I tend to agree with the previous posts and say Anderson, but there's no way that happens. They'd get rid of Vavra first, Anderson is Gardy's guy.

Thrylos
05-18-2012, 12:50 PM
Anderson (and promote Bobby Cuellar.) He is the closest to Gardenhire so it will give the loudest message and pitching has been worse than hitting.

This off-season all but Jerry White need to go (including Gardy); a new (non-interim) GM should be hired and a new minor league director as well to start working with the new Twins' minor league affiliates

Game163
05-18-2012, 12:54 PM
There is an article on Yahoo! right now about the need to fire Vavra,

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/minnesota-twins-best-served-promoting-tom-brunansky-fans-164600057--mlb.html

although I personally would choose Anderson to get the axe.

nicksaviking
05-18-2012, 12:59 PM
Anderson's case is hurt by the simple fact the Cuellar's AAA/AAAA starters are showing up Anderson's veteran starters by miles. He's been a great Twin and for awhile was considered the best pitching coach outside of Dave Duncan, but I don't see how Anderson will survive into 2013 especially considering a promotion is probably well deserved and overdue for Cuellar anyway.

woolhouse
05-18-2012, 01:52 PM
I want Tom Brunansky in the major league dugout working with these batters. Especially Joe Mauer. I have the 1987 World Series DVD set, and Brunansky swings at- and hits- the first pitch each time. That Game 1 of the ALCS is in there, and Bruno - and all the batters around hit- are hitting huge singles and doubles on the first pitch.

Now, I'm not saying that everytime... but when the pitcher is in a first-strike groove... swing.

JB_Iowa
05-18-2012, 02:09 PM
I'm not thrilled with the parameters you've established but within those parameters, I really don't care which one is fired FIRST.

Beyond that, what Thrylos said.

one_eyed_jack
05-18-2012, 02:35 PM
I don't agree with the parameters either, but to answer the question, I'd probably lean towards Vavra. Yes, the pitching has been worse overall, but the hitting has been worse relative to what it's capable of. I think replacing Vavra is more likely to spark the offense than replacing Anderson is to spark the pitching.

You can't really liken this to the Angels situation. They were expected to content this year, and still think they can. So they canned Hatcher hoping it create a spark while appeasing Pujols, who obviously wasn't happy with Hatcher.

The Twins have already started focusing on next year and beyond. There's no sense trying to salvage this year by firing coaches in hopes it will spark immediate results. And it doesn't seem like the players have quit on these guys or want them gone. So I don't see what's to be gained in firing one guy in May.

The rest of this season should determine the fate of the coaching staff. If we see a miraculous turnaround, fine, keep them. But if this team continues a slow death march to another 90+ losses, it's time for wholesale change this offseason. (And it wouldn't really be fair to whoever replaced Andy or Vavra in May if they had to face an uncertain future with regime change in October.)

gunnarthor
05-18-2012, 02:57 PM
If nothing else, I think the Twins need a Spanish speaking coach, which could be Cueller. Plus, maybe he gets something out of Liriano.

Seth Stohs
05-18-2012, 03:12 PM
I'd fire Rick Anderson first... we keep hearing that saying "So-n-So can work under Rick Anderson." Honestly, the last time that I think Anderson helped turn someone's career around was LaTroy Hawkins... in 2002. That said, I don't know what he's been given to work with this year. Perkins and Burton have certainly been good.

I really think Vavra is a good hitting coach. The Twins have been horrible situational hitters this season, but I think that's more of an organizational philosophy that's gone downhill since TK left.

Tom Brunansky is the big name right now... and I can't help but wonder why. That New Britain team had some guys who give him a lot of credit... but what has he shown in AAA this year. the Red Wings offense is weak. Benson has been demoted. Dozier was hitting under .200 over his past 19 games when the Twins called him up. So, is he really the answer? Some want Molitor, but he's been a failed hitting coach. Rod Carew? Hall of Fame hitter, but failed hitting coach. I think some don't like Vavra because he isn't a former player, a name... And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Paul
05-18-2012, 03:27 PM
I don't agree with the parameters either, but to answer the question, I'd probably lean towards Vavra. Yes, the pitching has been worse overall, but the hitting has been worse relative to what it's capable of. I think replacing Vavra is more likely to spark the offense than replacing Anderson is to spark the pitching.

You can't really liken this to the Angels situation. They were expected to content this year, and still think they can. So they canned Hatcher hoping it create a spark while appeasing Pujols, who obviously wasn't happy with Hatcher.

The Twins have already started focusing on next year and beyond. There's no sense trying to salvage this year by firing coaches in hopes it will spark immediate results. And it doesn't seem like the players have quit on these guys or want them gone. So I don't see what's to be gained in firing one guy in May.

The rest of this season should determine the fate of the coaching staff. If we see a miraculous turnaround, fine, keep them. But if this team continues a slow death march to another 90+ losses, it's time for wholesale change this offseason. (And it wouldn't really be fair to whoever replaced Andy or Vavra in May if they had to face an uncertain future with regime change in October.)


This is one of the few times in my life I have nothing to add.

Parker Hageman
05-18-2012, 03:38 PM
@one_eyed_jack: Relax, it's a hypothetical question created to spark the discussion on the two coaches.

mikeee
05-18-2012, 03:43 PM
I want Tom Brunansky in the major league dugout working with these batters. Especially Joe Mauer. I have the 1987 World Series DVD set, and Brunansky swings at- and hits- the first pitch each time. That Game 1 of the ALCS is in there, and Bruno - and all the batters around hit- are hitting huge singles and doubles on the first pitch.

Now, I'm not saying that everytime... but when the pitcher is in a first-strike groove... swing.

If he is the one getting Drew Butera hitting, I want him up too.

twinswon1991
05-18-2012, 03:50 PM
Anderson first.

Seconds later: Ryan, medical staff, and entire scouting dept.

Boom Boom
05-18-2012, 04:10 PM
Carl Pohlad, Bill Smith, Dan Gladden, and Wally the Beer Man.

rogrulz30
05-18-2012, 04:31 PM
If I had to fire somebody it would have to be Vavra for one reason, the entire organization needs Mauer to learn to hit for more power with his contract. I know he can learn, I think it is up to Vavra to teach him, he hasn't done it. We can say the same for Anderson not getting Liriano on board, but he isn't a psychologist. We need both the players, we need Mauer more.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
05-18-2012, 04:34 PM
I really think Vavra is a good hitting coach. The Twins have been horrible situational hitters this season, but I think that's more of an organizational philosophy that's gone downhill since TK left.

I'd really like to know why you think Vavra is a good hitting coach. I can't see any reason to defend him really. The Twins take lots of walks, but overall I don't think he has really progressed players at the MLB level. Parmelee is a perfect example. This might be a good idea for an article if you really want to try and convince people including myself.

greengoblinrulz
05-18-2012, 04:42 PM
Andersom, no question but Bruno is the up n comer....so hopefully both

one_eyed_jack
05-18-2012, 05:16 PM
Anderson today, the fat stupid slob manager tomorrow.

---Well this certainly takes the discussion level up a couple of notches. Were you planning on keeping that dumb poopy-head Joe Vavra or was that an error of omission?

Blake
05-18-2012, 05:52 PM
First, offer the coaching job and then fire. (make sure the person wanted is willing)

So, offer the job of pitching coach to Blyleven. If he says no, then offer the job of hitting coach to Roy Smalley.

Kind of hard for the youngsters to ignore a HOF pitching coach and a hitting coach with a World Series ring.

(someone needs to invent an emoticon that signifies tongue in cheek)

Nick Nelson
05-18-2012, 06:09 PM
Someone mentioned the lack of preparation for starting pitchers. I'm also irked by the lack of adjustments being made. With all these guys struggling, you'd think at least one of them would be able to turn it around with some help from the pitching coach, but we're seeing no meaningful improvements from Liriano, or Blackburn, or Marquis. Hendriks seemed to have no plan on the mound. I wonder if a change in guidance for the pitching staff would help.

Thrylos
05-18-2012, 06:26 PM
So, offer the job of pitching coach to Blyleven. If he says no, then offer the job of hitting coach to Roy Smalley.

Kind of hard for the youngsters to ignore a HOF pitching coach and a hitting coach with a World Series ring.



Just for correctness' sake:
Smalley might have a ring and might have beenawarded a post-season $ share in 87, but he never played any post-season games with the Twins. He was traded to the Yankees mid-season. Brunansky on the other hand... ;)

ltwedt
05-18-2012, 08:18 PM
Mmmmm- if I had a choice - Steve Liddle - he has no clue! But, given the choices - Anderson. If the "pitch-to-contact" theory is his, please do it tomorrow so we can move on and start trying to actually become a staff of pitchers. I just can not warm to that philosophy

DJSim22
05-18-2012, 09:23 PM
So I emailed KFAN today about Cuellar replacing Anderson and Dark Star went off on me. :cool:

TwinsFanLV
05-18-2012, 09:41 PM
Just for correctness' sake:
Smalley might have a ring and might have beenawarded a post-season $ share in 87, but he never played any post-season games with the Twins. He was traded to the Yankees mid-season. Brunansky on the other hand... ;)
You are totally wrong about Smalley. Smalley had one plate appearance and walked in Game 7 of the '87 series. He was traded to the Yankees much earlier in his career and had returned.

TwinsFanLV
05-18-2012, 09:45 PM
Smalley walked to load the bases in the bottom of the sixth, ahead of a two run double by Greg Gagne.

Dilligaf69
05-18-2012, 10:23 PM
I'd say Vavra...this team just does'nt hit for any power...Now i don't have to see 200 HR's a yr that's not gonna happen but the last few games aside we don't even hit that many doubles. We lead the ML is ground balls so it's an approach thing it seems to me. Mauer should be a doubles machine and while he's had good yrs in that dept, and has had a myriad of injuries it seems to me that if he won't hit HR's which would be nice too then at least he should produce 5 or 6 dozen 2B a yr.

gunnarthor
05-18-2012, 10:38 PM
Just for correctness' sake:
Smalley might have a ring and might have beenawarded a post-season $ share in 87, but he never played any post-season games with the Twins. He was traded to the Yankees mid-season. Brunansky on the other hand... ;)

Um, http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIN/MIN198710180.shtml

beckmt
05-18-2012, 11:42 PM
Let's look at two things. The Twins are not going to fire a coach in the regular season. I feel Bruno will be the hitting coach here next year, on merit. Gardy is too close to Anderson and this may be both if TR tries to relieve Anderson(much as TK and DIck Such) and I feel Dick Such was not as good as Anderson. Terry Ryan is not going anywhere (his bullpen patch job has been remarkable), see if he has another mircle next year with the starting staff.
A coach is only as good as the talent he has. Anderson does not have a great deal of talent in this pitching staff, hitting is a different story.

Shane Wahl
05-19-2012, 01:14 AM
Someone mentioned the lack of preparation for starting pitchers. I'm also irked by the lack of adjustments being made. With all these guys struggling, you'd think at least one of them would be able to turn it around with some help from the pitching coach, but we're seeing no meaningful improvements from Liriano, or Blackburn, or Marquis. Hendriks seemed to have no plan on the mound. I wonder if a change in guidance for the pitching staff would help.

Absolutely. And again, the AAA pitcher gets the job done (marginally) again. Pavano and Marquis the next two days . . .

whydidnt
05-19-2012, 04:38 PM
Well, as much as I think they both need to go..if I have to chose one, it's Anderson. He's been here a long time, and over that time has seemed to have a lot of communication problems, especially with high upside type guys. If he had just had a problem with Liriano, it would be one thing, but also Garza, Lohse, Slowey to name a few off the top of my head. A huge part of his job is communication and getting these guys to perform, he seems to have failed at that when it really matters most.

4thCatcher
05-19-2012, 10:07 PM
I like where whydidnt took this...I have no idea what the right answer is but have more hitters or pitchers been successful after leaving the organization? That's who you fire first...

Bark's Lounge
05-20-2012, 12:15 AM
I agree with all of those who say no one will get fired during the 2012 season. I think Gardy would resign if firing one of his coaches was a forced scenario. If I was to give an answer based on fiction - I would fire or reassign Liddle, move Ullger the Weird to 3B Coach and pluck Mike Redmond out of the Bluejays Organization and appoint him bench coach. I don't think Gardy has too much left in the tank to deal with this job health wise and I am sure Red Dog was well liked by Ron and he wouldn't mind preparing him to be his successor in a year or 2 or 3. When that managerial switch happens, Gardy will take the T.K. route and become a special assistant to the GM.

Top Gun
05-20-2012, 07:30 AM
It's to late now, the Twins are winning!

JB_Iowa
05-20-2012, 09:39 AM
move Ullger the Weird to 3B Coach

I'm tired of reruns and as I recall this one wasn't even good the first time.

fittdogg
05-20-2012, 11:50 AM
Rick Anderson needed to go long ago. Can anyone name 1 Twins starting pitcher that has improved since being called up from the minors?

Thrylos
05-20-2012, 12:16 PM
I agree with all of those who say no one will get fired during the 2012 season. I think Gardy would resign if firing one of his coaches was a forced scenario. .

And, what's exactly wrong with that? Kill many birds with one stone :)

ashburyjohn
05-20-2012, 12:26 PM
It's to late now, the Twins are winning!

How long until Gardenhire and all the coaches are signed to a multi-year extension?